Neighborly dilemma

[rbstern]

My friend and neighbor has gotten into range shooting over the last couple of years. He has expressed that he wants to get into reloading, and we've discussed it several times.

He's a bright, highly motivated, self-made person, mechanically inclined, and certainly capable of understanding the issues of reloading.

The dilemma: He's usually going in multiple directions at once, managing projects, juggling professional and family responsibilities, rushing from place to place to keep up with a very full plate. He gets speeding tickets all the time, and has had more than one fender bender while talking on a cell and driving.

I am concerned that he may not be able to turn off the cell phones (he sometimes carries as many as three) and focus on safe reloading practices. I've participated in leisure activities with him in the past, and he sometimes takes risks that make me nervous.

He's probably going to go down the reloading path whether I help him or not.

Any advice on how I can help him stay safe?

[dragonrider]

If he is going to do it anyway, then I think you should help him and be sure that he learns safety above all else.

[sundog]

Go to the NRMA website and find a NRA certified reloading instructor. Tell him, yes you'd like to help, but it would be better done with a 'trained professional' so that he can get the 'complete' deal. It's kinda like trying to teach a very close relative how to drive. Sometimes ain't worth it.... Besides, it'll leave you out of the loop when he has his first mishap. sundog

[NVcurmudgeon]

If you can't get him to go to a certified instructor, try to get him started on a Lee Loader with slow burning powder, and have him leave the cell phone at home. Good luck, if he ever sees a copy of "The Blue Press," all bets are off!

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

If you are going to make the attempt, the first rule would be ZERO cell phones in the room, and no other interruptions; save emergency type of situations.

Make him understand that a mistake CAN cost his wellbeing in the worst situation. ....no more cell phone calls for him, maybew that will bring reality home. ;)

[doc25]

Your house your rules! No cell phones while loading in your house! Teach him and let him at it. If he really won't take care and pay attention then "natural selection" will weed him out of the gene pool and you can probably pick up his firearms from his widow for a song [smilie=1: . Maybe let him read these posts and he might get the message.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Rich,

I agree with the rest of the guys. I'd get him a NRA certified instructor and talk to him about safety. A fast paced lifestyle is not a good place for a reloader unless he can be made to understand safety is paramount and how dangerous bad loads are.

Regards,

Dave

[JBMauser]

My advice would be to steer him to progressive loaders like the dillon, with such toys as powder check indicators etc. If he can focus on proper set up he need only pull the handle so to speak. Good safelty measures should be encouraged but these production type set ups tend to hold their settings. Bad things can happen with distraction but these systems can reduce the risk if just a bit. His desire for speed would suit these systems and he might be the kind of guy who buys a press for each cal. and leaves them set up for production. Just my opinion. JB

[omgb]

Progressive loaders and ADD or ADHD? Good Lord! If you must get involved, then by all means steer him toward single stage reloaders like the RCBS Rockchucker. Otherwise, stay out of it. Who needs that kind of head ache?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Sounds like he might need to see a psycholigist rather that a reloading instructor. If he comes over to your place to learn, make him leave the cellphones at home or surrender them to your wife to mind and make sure he hasn't had any red cordial for a few days before. :-D

[johnho]

Guys, I'm going to take a different approach here. You can go through all the gyrations of NRA instructor and telling him what to do and what not to do when reloading. It probably won't do any good with this guy. He doesn't care and by your post he has demonstrated that over and over. He doesn't care about rules (traffic tickets) or others (accidents while on cell phone). He will do things his way and only his way.

I have been involved in hiring people and training them in safety. We finally adopted the policy that if you have a bad driving record we will not hire you. There is a direct correlation between an unsafe driver and his safety on the job. I will grant that this is a broad brush to paint with but we simply don't take the chance anymore.

Chances are he will get into reloading but will find it too time consuming and eventually give it up. In any event all you can do is tell him the safety aspects and help if he asks and then stay away. You can't save someone from himself.

John

[versifier]

Lots of good ideas, but johnho makes the most cogent point. If the man is an accident waiting to happen, then I would keep my distance. While not a "Certified NRA Reloading Instructor", I regularly teach new loaders the ropes, using my own manual and curriculum. The extra income is welcome. But, I have learned to be realistic about whom I will agree to teach. The ideal student is a patient perfectionist, but I will settle for intelligent, detail-oriented, and conscientious. If you agree to teach him, it's you that the survivors will be suing when he kills or severely injures himself or a bystander. Tell him you're not comfortable in the role of teaching, (or that you cannot make the necessary time commitment to insure it being taught thoroughly and completely) but maybe wouldn't object to answering the occasional question once he gets himself some competent instruction. As it is unlikely that an instructor would agree to teach him after talking with him, (the multiple cell phones would be enough for me), that alone might be enough to discourage him. If he decides to teach himself anyway, don't involve yourself at all. I'm all for natural selection taking its proper course, but you don't want to be in the position of possibly being held responsible when it does. The best way to win a any kind of fight is to avoid it in the first place.
Intelligence and mechanical ability are all well and good, but you have to take a person's temperament into account also, and this one appears from your description to be incapable of the degree of safety consciousness required. If you are uneasy enough about him to come here and sound us out, then I think you should trust your instincts - your unease is appropriate and prudent. I know two shooters like him - I refused (politely) to teach either. As I am about the only available instruction in the area, hopefully the problems have solved themselves. We'll see....there's always Darwin......

[felix]

Quite frankly, this type of person is not qualified to be around anything that could be dangerous to anyones' health. ... felix

[Bent Ramrod]

One of the reasons I like to reload is that I have to forget all my troubles, worries, heartaches, appointments, hassles, etc., and focus strictly on the job at hand. It's like a few hours' vacation from the rest of the day.

If your friend is as bright as you say he is, he should realize on his own that he can't add weighing explosives and assembling munitions to the rest of the multitasking chores of his busy life. Would he really trust himself enough to shoot the ammo he assembles himself? I know a real rocket scientist who won't trust himself that far. He's a fanatic perfectionist who would be good at reloading, but he doesn't think he could do it safely, so that's the end of the subject.

[lar45]

I think the progressive press(Dillon) would be the best way to go.
With a bunch of cases sitting in a loading block, it would be easy for anyone to dump powder in the same one twice.
The only time I use a loading block is for my 470 NE loads. The dillon doesn't have an automatic Dacron tuft inserting station yet. ;)
With the Dillon, then the case gets one shot of powder, and then on to the next step.
To help keep him safe, tell him to finish out all cases in the press before he gets up to do anything different. That way everything in the ammo bin is finished and he won't have to remember where he was at.

I do agree with Felix that he could be dangerous. You could find some pics of blown up guns, it would be better if you could find pics of people injured also. Print the pics and put them up next to his reloading setup. Then stress that you can do notheing else while your loading. That includes the wife or kids asking questions.

[carpetman]

lar45---I would disagree with you on a progressive making it harder to double charge. When you have cases in a loading block---you take a look see with a flashlight. A double charge will show up like a missing tooth. For someone just starting I'd certainly go single stage. For someone that has reloaded for several years---I think single stage the best--too darn many things that can go wrong--better chance of catching them doing them one step at a time.

[versifier]

C-man, I agree 100%.

Newbys and progressives don't mix. They're fine for old farts like us who have been loading ammo since Moby Dick was a minnow - we are well acquainted with each step of the process and know what to keep an eye open for.

Newbys need to learn one step at a time and to thoroughly understand each step and what needs to happen during it. A single stage press is the best way to to end up with a safe and careful loader. It takes a few thousand rounds under your belt to get comfortable with the process, which should take the average shooter a year or so. Considering the possible consequences of mistakes, this doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Most loaders will never need more than a single stage press anyway, unless the volume to be loaded approaches or exceeds 5 or 600 rounds/month, an even then, a turret press will do for most of us. I cannot see wanting/needing a real progressive until volume exceeds 1500/month. I base it on this: I can load 250-300 rounds of rifle cases an hour on a single stage, and about twice that on my turret. Four hours work and I can load at least 1000 rounds on my Rockchuker, or for the same amount of time about 2000 rounds with the turret, and that's going along at a reasonable pace, not cranking, and assuming I'm not changing charge weights, powders, bullets, etc. constantly. Loading small lots for load testing obviously goes a lot slower, and using a progressive for that defeats the purpose of it anyway. The only people I know who go through more ammo than that either shoot handguns in competition or like to play with full-autos.

If the learner in question doesn't have the patience or thinks he's in too much of a hurry to handle each case for each step and examine it before and after, then he's going to get bored and decide the whole thing is a waste of his time, which I think in this case could be considered a positive outcome. Advise him to buy some decent equipment when he starts so you can take it off his hands later for a reasonable price when he quits. [smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

He gets speeding tickets all the time, and has had more than one fender bender while talking on a cell and driving.

I've participated in leisure activities with him in the past, and he sometimes takes risks that make me nervous.
I think you would be doing the neighborhood a service if you steered him away from firearms, and into one of those paint ball clubs.
CM

[mike in co]

there are simple things that make progressives like the dillons safe.
ALWAYS SELECT A POWDER CHARGE THAT EXCEEDS 50% OF CASE VOLUME.
I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.

SINGLE STAGES PRESSES ARE ANCIENT TECHNOLOGY....OR FOR SPECIFIC TASKS.


I HAVE BEEN AMMO CRAFTING SINCE 1970....TILL THIS YEAR I NEVER BOUGHT A SINGLE STAGE PRESS OR LOADED ON ONE.
I RECENTLY BOUGHT A SINGLE FOR USE AT THE RANGE WITH MY BR GUNS. MOST OF MY BR AMMO IS LOADED ON DILLONS...BUT WILL DO SOME LOAD DEVELOPMENT AT THE RANGE ..SO A SINGLE WAS ADDED......STILLL HAVE NOT USED IT!
WHAT AND HOW YOU LEARNED IS 'how it was done"....20 or 30 yrs ago....it just aint necessary today.

i'll agree that maybe this guy should just buy ammo....

if cannot sit down and relax....then try something else..

[mike in co]

C-man, I agree 100%.

I base it on this: I can load 250-300 rounds of rifle cases an hour on a single stage, and about twice that on my turret. [smilie=1:

versifier.......i almost will call bs on this.......

that is 15 SECONDS PER LOADED RIFLE ROUND.

RIFLE REQUIRES CASE LUBE FOR FL, THO YOU MAY BE DOING NECK SIZING.

250 NECK SIZINGS, 250 PRIMER SEATING( THIS ASSUMES NO PRIMER POCKET CLEANING...EWWWWWWWWW!)
CHANGE DIES, DROP AND CHECK 250 POWDER CHARGES.....WHO FILLS THE POWDER MEASURE FOR YOU ??

AND THEN SEAT 250 BOOLITS OR BULLETS....

THATS FOUR DISTINCT TASKS, AND INSERTING AND REMOVING THE CASE FROM THE SHELL HOLDER TWICE.

i'll belive you can seat 250 bullets in an hour, maybe even drop powder and seat....but all four steps from once fired brass......no way.


mike.....two dillon 550's, one lee turret, one lyman turret.......and an unused lee classic single stage...... AND A STACK OF LEE HANDLOADERS....

[rbstern]

I appreciate all of the various perspectives. The comments offered are very helpful. I haven't come to a conclusion yet, but this thread has furthered my thinking.

[versifier]

Geez Mike, you don't have to go all Joe on me. :mrgreen: I can see the way I explained it is confusing. I am neck sizing only, so no, I'm not lubing the cases, I don't ever bother to clean primer pockets unless I have difficulty seating them, which is almost never, and I seat primers on an AutoPrime2 mounted on a separate small ss press. My powder measure holds almost a pound of powder and doesn't need refilling often. It takes around 2 minutes to charge a block of 50 cases. Changing a die takes about 60 seconds (30 out, 30 in). As for handling cases, it takes between 1.5 and 2 seconds to put a case in the shell holder, work the press handle, then remove it (30+ per minute). Plastic bins are placed conveniently close to insure absolute minimal hand motion. While the press handle is moving, my left hand tosses the finished case in one bin and grabs a fresh one from another.

I am not saying I want to keep up such a rate of production all day, nor do I usually work at that speed, but I am able to. I have been running a single stage press for almost 40 years, time enough to learn to work one quickly and efficiently. I have done factory work on complex assemblies, mechanical and electronic, where pay was dependent on the number of pieces produced, and I understand the value of thinking out the set up very carefully so I can do the job with minimal motion. In retrospect, I really should have used more conservative numbers to make my point, not the maximum speed I can achieve. 200 rounds per hour is easily achievable with some familiarity to the press and careful placement of supplies.

That does not change the validity of the point, though, which is that a single stage press is plenty fast enough to meet the needs of most shooters, and 1000 rounds per month production is no big deal for anyone to produce on a single stage press. You yourself may not be able to use one very fast at first, (though when you finally get around to trying yours out, I think you may be quite surprised at how much you can get done with one) and I certainly couldn't go quickly when I started. But, as with any tool, the more you use it, the better you get with it.....and at the next level up, a turret press will at least double whatever rate of production you can achieve on the single, then the progressive will more than double that. As your needs increase, purchase of faster tools makes sense, but again it comes down to the basic question: How much do you shoot? How many rounds per month, per year? That number is different for every shooter, and those who reload do tend to shoot more, but the question still needs to be answered to determine what level of tooling is appropriate. There are always going to be those who want to run a Dillon to load a box a month and have the cash to blow on it, and others who will work their fingers off doing thousands of rounds a month on their single stages rather than expend precious component funds for an upgrade. But neither extreme is very realistic, and we return again to the question: How much ammo do you need to load? This is a question for an experienced loader, not one for a beginner.

No matter what tools you are using, none of the basic operations of loading ammo have changed in over a century. (I am not talking about all the special tools and techniques developed for BR shooters, just what us normal shooters and hunters use.) We do have better and faster tools now, but all those same basic operations still have to be learned by every beginner, and the best way to teach someone to do them well and safely is with a single stage press, one step at a time. K.I.S.S. The simpler, the better. I have taught dozens that way, and to date am unaware of a single accident among any of my former students. Am I conservative in my views on this? Certainly. No argument there. I think the safety record clearly demonstrates the validity of my approach. Many of them have indeed moved on later to turrets and to progressives, and often they come back and teach me new things or bring new tools and components to play with and compare. I see no reason to fix something that isn't broken, and I, personally, shall continue to use single stage presses for teaching basic, careful, safe reloading. Are there other ways to learn? Of course there are. I have found one that works well for me and I am well satisfied with it.

[monadnock#5]

I got into reloading from listening to two buddies talk about it at lunch break. They recommended the basic equipment I needed but never volunteered to give hands on assistance. My first attempt found me with a load of Unique two grains above max in a Mod 27 S&W. Pierced and flattened primers, and cases so violently expanded that the cylinder wouldn't rotate after the third or fourth round fired. And all from not knowing how to set my scale. Stoopid! Stoopid! Stoopid!

Needless to say I leaned a very valuable lesson, all by myself.

Please, tell your neighbor all the reasons that you don't feel he's qualified. And that because you have reservations, that you don't want to be held responsible if he does something dumb. Then if he still wants your help, with that understanding, then by all means do so. If he's as bullheaded as I am, he will go on without you. And if he has the slightest inkling that you won't help because you think he's incapable of being taught, for whatever the reason, he won't ever come to you for advice again, at least not until it's too late.

Ken

[mike in co]

vers,

so you are using two single stage presses!....thats half of a dillon 550 !

may i suggest you fill your powder measure, set it for a normal rifle load.

weigh ten charges at full measure, half empty the measure, weigh ten more, and then go down to less than 1/4 full and weight ten more......
it aint gonna be pretty....a noticable spread.

you did not inspect the brass, you did not measure the brass,

minor diff in style and expected end results.....

i do not build any rifle plinking ammo...its all target quality....

but i can do it fast , in steps using a dillon.

on the other hand...the last time i did 40sw i loaded over 4000 rounds at one time. dillons can crank!( the brass was all prepped...only dropping powder, seating and slight crimp)...

naw joe is special,,,,

mike

[montana_charlie]

i do not build any rifle plinking ammo...its all target quality....
Doesn't weighing each bullet and powder charge kinda take the shine off of using a Dillon?
CM

[mike in co]

Doesn't weighing each bullet and powder charge kinda take the shine off of using a Dillon?
CM


no..........
cast boolits get wieghed and sorted long before loading.
some powder charges can be done on the dillon by knowing when and where to maintain the powder level in the measure, others are partial thrown, trickled and then run thru the dillon.
with some powders i can run 500/1000 rounds of 223 3 gundcm/cmp ammo as fast as i can feed it brass and bullets.
same when doing pistol ammo for ipsc/nra/idpa.

i can load slow on a dillon and i can load fast on a dillon.....you can only load slow on a single stage press......even vers admitted to using two single stage presses to get to his round count......

the truth is i load in batches...from 15/20 to several thousand at a time, but i prep the brass first and then load in a second round. you dont have to( dillons process is only one step) but i choose to split it into several small steps.
brass does not go into a die that has not been cleaned first. rilfe brass does not get primers till the pockets have been cleaned and/or uniformed. most rifle brass is neck sized only...even in my ar15's and ar-10!
dont do what you are not comfortable with.......its your time, your guns and your life.