.38 super and RCBS 9mm-124 gas checked

[dahermit]

I am looking for a very accurate load for my .38 Super. I want to use my home-cast, oven-hardened RCBS 9mm-124 gas check bullet.
I have tried W231 as per some of Lyman #48 handbook and their "potentially most accurate load", but the RCBS gas check bullets and W231 built pressure too fast.

In short, what powder shows good accuracy with my preferred bullet? (Not interest in using any other cast bullet for this cartridge.)

[bobthenailer]

I have that bullet & 2 - 38 supers , one with a Nowlin barrel & the other with a Kart barrel , let me ck my records & get back with you ! Bob

[theperfessor]

Don't have a Super but Blue Dot has always worked well for me in 9mm with that weight bullet.

[dahermit]

Don't have a Super but Blue Dot has always worked well for me in 9mm with that weight bullet.

Thanks but, a .38 super although sharing a bullet diameter with 9mm, will not likely like the exact same powder as indicated by Lyman's past "accuracy loads". Blue Dot has been around forever, but the old Lyman manuals never had an instance of Blue Dot being the powder of choice or even listed for a cast bullet lighter than 133 grains.

[theperfessor]

I don't think it's the "powder of choice" from the Lyman book for 9mm either, but what can I say? I think suggested "accuracy loads" are just that, suggestions. I don't shoot a book, I shoot a HiPower, and I let it suggest it's own "accuracy loads". I think BE and 231 are too fast for high pressure cartridges such as 9mm. But as I said I don't own a Super so maybe I'm nuts. But if I did, I'd start my load development with BD or another powder in it's burning range before I tried BE or 231 for mid range or full bore loads. Just my experience, YMMV

[dahermit]

I don't think it's the "powder of choice" from the Lyman book for 9mm either, but what can I say? I think suggested "accuracy loads" are just that, suggestions. I don't shoot a book, I shoot a HiPower, and I let it suggest it's own "accuracy loads". I think BE and 231 are too fast for high pressure cartridges such as 9mm. But as I said I don't own a Super so maybe I'm nuts. But if I did, I'd start my load development with BD or another powder in it's burning range before I tried BE or 231 for mid range or full bore loads. Just my experience, YMMV

But, not owning or hand loading for a .38 Super, your experiance somehow tells you that despite the volumn difference between 9mm and .38 Super, Blue Dot is the way to go?

It would seem that the makers of Blue Dot are not so sure about using 125 grain bullets in cases of larger volumns than have proven safe in your 9mm.
Blue Dot warning from Alliant?


http://www.alliantpowder.com/safety/safetynotice.htm

ATK Commercial Products
900 Ehlen Drive Anoka, MN 55303
www.atk.com
July 25, 2008
Dear Functional Wholesaler:
Please distribute this letter to all of your customers immediately with instructions for them to do the following:
• Post this letter in a highly visible area of their establishment
• Distribute to their customers as soon as possible
Alliant Powder Blue Dot® Product Safety Notice
Alliant Powder® periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that recommended recipes have not changed over time.
During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder’s Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).
Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.
We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions or concerns please contact me at Dick.Quesenberry@ATK.com or call me at 540-639-8503.

Dick Quesenberry
Alliant Powder
Product Line Manager

[kywoodwrkr]

Maybe it's just me but 357 and 41 do not mean 9mm.
istols and Revolvers
38 Super Auto +P


115 gr Speer GDHP
Minimum OAL
(inches)

Bbl Length

Primer

Powder

Charge Weight
(grains)

Velocity
(fps)

Print

1.265CCI 500Herco (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/herco.aspx)7.81,276View this recipe (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=115&shellid=25&bulletid=25&bdid=44)1.265CCI 500Blue Dot (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/blue_dot.aspx)101,362View this recipe (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=115&shellid=25&bulletid=25&bdid=45)



This from Alliant Website.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=115&shellid=25&bulletid=25
Granted these are jacketed. But also lighter than the 'warning' weight.
FWIW

[theperfessor]

Well, I was merely trying to offer a suggestion for a slower powder you might try in a high pressure cartridge of limited volume using a hard GC bullet. Maybe its not the best powder for .38 Super. And there are a lot of other powders in that burning range that are worth trying. Herco, Unique, ... But your first post indicated that you knew that a fast powder (231) was building pressure too fast for this combination and you asked for suggestions.

By the way, my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition page 123 says the following:

"Accuracy Loads
When a load is noted as such in the data tables proper, it means that the given combination of components produced the most uniform internal ballistics of any load tested utilizing that particular bullet design.

Unless noted in "Comments", the accuracy load was not fired at targets...."

It goes on to say that the reason for this is because loads with good internal ballistic uniformity have the potential to be the most accurate. But this is not a guarantee. And I don't have the equipment to test internal ballistics to see how uniform they are. All I have is a paper target and when the bullets holes are close to each other I'm happy.

The Blue Dot warning was discussed here at great length a while back. I still use it in a lot of cartridges, including .41 Mag. Do a search, read the thread, understand the conditions that prompted that warning, and make up your own mind.

[casterofboolits]

My IPSC 38 Super load was a Saeco #930 38S-154-SWCBB designed by Wilson. actually dropped 158 grains with my alloy. The #928 38S-145-RNBB and the #929 38S-145-SWCBB droped perfect 145 grains with the same alloy.

BlueDot was my powder of choice. I made major with no problem at all. I use BlueDot for all my 380, 9mm and 38 Super loads. Accurate #7 works well also.

[dahermit]

[
QUOTE=theperfessor;1299883]Well, I was merely trying to offer a suggestion for a slower powder you might try in a high pressure cartridge of limited volume using a hard GC bullet. Maybe its not the best powder for .38 Super. And there are a lot of other powders in that burning range that are worth trying. Herco, Unique, ... But your first post indicated that you knew that a fast powder (231) was building pressure too fast for this combination and you asked for suggestions.

By the way, my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition page 123 says the following:

"Accuracy Loads
When a load is noted as such in the data tables proper, it means that the given combination of components produced the most uniform internal ballistics of any load tested utilizing that particular bullet design.

Unless noted in "Comments", the accuracy load was not fired at targets...."

It goes on to say that the reason for this is because loads with good internal ballistic uniformity have the potential to be the most accurate. But this is not a guarantee. And I don't have the equipment to test internal ballistics to see how uniform they are. All I have is a paper target and when the bullets holes are close to each other I'm happy.
The Blue Dot warning was discussed here at great length a while back. I still use it in a lot of cartridges, including .41 Mag. Do a search, read the thread, understand the conditions that prompted that warning, and make up your own mind.[/QUOTE]

"...produced the most uniform internal ballistics... The load however, does have a high potential assuming all external factors are optimum - for producing outstanding accuracy..." The Lyman advice relative to "accuracy loads", when it comes to handguns and cast bullets, has turned out for me to produce (as well as have potential), in the 45 ACP, 9mm, and .44 Special. It has however, not worked out in regard to .38 Super, perhaps because the particular bullet I am using does not have a direct Lyman equivalent. Nevertheless, the "accuracy loads" have shown me to be well worth testing and in three out of four instances, produced outstanding results.

[dahermit]

My IPSC 38 Super load was a Saeco #930 38S-154-SWCBB designed by Wilson. actually dropped 158 grains with my alloy. The #928 38S-145-RNBB and the #929 38S-145-SWCBB droped perfect 145 grains with the same alloy.

BlueDot was my powder of choice. I made major with no problem at all. I use Blue Dot for all my 380, 9mm and 38 Super loads. Accurate #7 works well also.Thanks for the input. However, my search for a .38 Super load is not motivated by trying to make major in competition. Blue Dot seems to have more of a following for heavier bullets in 9mm than light ones.
I have used Blue Dot for years in magnum handgun loads in preference to 2400 because of the problems with incomplete burning with the old 2400. I used Blue Dot in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum. But then Allient got real "hinky" about some of the very applications in which I was using it. It has scared me off... It is possible that they actually changed the formula for it somewhat.
I have used Accurate #7 to good effect in the .38 Super, but have had to interpolate (estimate), loads for the Super and cast bullets and I would rather not do that.
In short, I was hoping that someone would have found the equivalent of a Lyman "accuracy load" using the RCBS 9mm-124 gas checked bullet so I would not have to spend a whole lot of time in the development/testing stage.

[bobthenailer]

the best load that i came up with useing the RCBS 122 gc bullet is 5.7 grs of universal clays for a 1 1/2 high x 2 1/4 w at 25 yards for a 10 shot group. WAP also worked well. Although this is not a reduced load, as that was not my goal
i did not do alot of load testing with this bullet as i mostley use the Saeco # 929 a 145 gr swc bb for the super @ 30 shots in 1 1/2 at 25 yards, with several loads as ive found it the most accurate of the 4 moulds that i have for the 38 super/ 9mm and you dont have the added expense & extra work to install the ck.
In my experiance with CAST BULLETS & the 38 super the 135 gr + bullets and or tc nose profiles are more accurate than the lighter ones with rn profile . because of more bearing surface
i mostley use the rcbs gc bullet when done shooting for the day to clean up any left over light leading in the barrels of my 38 supers & 9mms handguns .
A ransom rest was used for all accuracy testing !