Enfield load got worse and worse.

[wallenba]

I recently shot fifty rounds of neck sized 303 loaded with 22.5 grains of IMR 4227 under a Lyman 314299 checked and Alox lubed. The first 30 rounds performed
so-so, 2.5" @ 50 yds. The last 15 started to tumble and spread out. This is a 'new' barrel that was recently installed. It slugged .311, I sized the boolits .312. Is this a heat problem, a bad powder/charge choice or a sizing problem? The boolit is a very popular choice for this rifle so I think it is not a factor in itself. Where would you begin in finding the problem? There is only slight leading just at the muzzle but the top of the bayonet lug is flashed with lead. What would that mean?

[1Shirt]

To me it says undersized blts!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Multigunner]

I recently shot fifty rounds of neck sized 303 loaded with 22.5 grains of IMR 4227 under a Lyman 314299 checked and Alox lubed. The first 30 rounds performed
so-so, 2.5" @ 50 yds. The last 15 started to tumble and spread out. This is a 'new' barrel that was recently installed. It slugged .311, I sized the boolits .312. Is this a heat problem, a bad powder/charge choice or a sizing problem? The boolit is a very popular choice for this rifle so I think it is not a factor in itself. Where would you begin in finding the problem? BTW, there is no leading in the bore.:?:

Can't tell you anything about your particular load without actually trying it, but since the first thirty rounds weren't doing much, it does sound like it was marginal and regular fouling from those shots was enough to tip the balance without signs of leading.

I've cleaned out what looked to be a perfectly clean bore and a long strip of old jacket material that had been ironed into a groove came loose and rolled into a tight coil that jammed the patch tight.
I've also cleaned revolver bores that looked un leaded and popped loose bits that looked like tin inclusions in a bullet had ironed onto the surface.

If there any roughen portion of a bore from old corrosive ammo, fouling can build up there and act to reduce the diameter of the bullet as it passes, allowing blow by on the other side.

Outside of that you might check for build up at the crown, the crown being the major cause of keyholing if the throat itself isn't badly eroded.

Before tightening up the headgap of my No.4 I would always mark the rims and orient each case the same for first firing, on second firing I rotated each case 180 degrees from its first firing position. On from second firing on each case was perfectly centered, the cases equally expanded to compensate for slack in the chamber fit due to taper.
I only size 2/3 of the neck, the evenly expanded rear third acts to center the neck and present the bullet to origin of rifling without cant.

PS
New barrels are rare, many are nearly unused take off barrels from Drill rifle, not necessarily DP rifles since many perfectly good Enfields were chamber plugged for use as drill rifles.
Some of these though near new have oversized bores or other hidden defects.

If mid to late WW 2 British manufacture these sometimes had stress lines in the chamber area due to over torquing without proper fitting before being cranked on.
They solved that problem but affected rifles can have elongated chambers due to the stess weakening the steel of the shank near the shoulder. Not a safety issuebut but one that affected accuracy as the barrel warmed up and could deform chambers and fired cases.

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=Multigunner;1297529]

PS
New barrels are rare, many are nearly unused take off barrels from Drill rifle, not necessarily DP rifles since many perfectly good Enfields were chamber plugged for use as drill rifles.
Some of these though near new have oversized bores or other hidden defects.

It's not really a NEW barrel, that's why I used parenthesis. It's just a new replacement for the old one. I could not get the old one to shoot well as it slugged nearly .317. Yes, there is some leading on the crown. Next I'll size .313 and go back to TrailBoss for a while.

[JeffinNZ]

OK, first things first. I think you could benefit from a fatter bullet regardless of the .311 groove. Both my No4 MkII and SMLE are good, tight barrels but both like a fatter bullet.

Next, what is your alloy/BHN. Your load would be very much the top end for air cooled WW for example.

[PAT303]

Like Jeff said my 303's start loosing accuracy over 20grns,my two groove No.4 shoots in the 10 ring at 100 with a lapped out lyman 311291 over 18grns of AR2205/H4227. Pat

[wallenba]

OK, first things first. I think you could benefit from a fatter bullet regardless of the .311 groove. Both my No4 MkII and SMLE are good, tight barrels but both like a fatter bullet.

Next, what is your alloy/BHN. Your load would be very much the top end for air cooled WW for example.

My BHN should be 19-20 as it is commercial smelted Lyman #2 from Rotometals. I have a .313 Lee sizer and a .314 Lyman sizer die. I don't like to, or can't use the Lyman sizer on these because they get bent in the process. My Lyman manual showed a starting load of 20 grs for IMR4227 and a max of 26.5. So I thought I was being conservative. I do have some Unique and can get my hands on some 2400 and try the Harris universal load.
Also, I forgot to mention it's an SMLE, but you probably figured that out because my lead flashing on the bayonet lug.

[JeffinNZ]

Your "no. 2" will likely be closer to 15 BHN.

What gets bent?

I really think you should be shooting these bullets as cast.

[wallenba]

Your "no. 2" will likely be closer to 15 BHN.

What gets bent?

I really think you should be shooting these bullets as cast.

My Lyman 4500 lubrisizer will bend most long bullets like the 314299 I'm using. The ram has to be at the very top of the stroke to get the bullet to the die. At that point the geometry of the linkage changes abit. The ram tilts inward slightly at the top limit and directs force outward when starting down. This is a known problem with them, as I have learned from others here, what was causing the bending

[Larry Gibson]

Push size the 311299s and seat the GC through the .313 Lee sizer. Then use the .314 H die in the 4500 to just lube them. You should not bend them that way and .002 over groove diameter should be good. Also, as mentioned, the BHN of the #2 alloy should be closer to 15. While your load may be "conservative" as to published data it may very well be too much for the alloy in that cartridge. If you have any 4895 available try 28 gr with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler.

As to the lead flashing on the bayonet lug; what alox lube are you using?

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

I think you could benefit from a fatter bullet regardless of the .311 groove.I'm with Jeff. A well used SMLE barrel should have a tapered bore and a tapered throat due to cordite ammunition.

One accuracy problem I have found is with uneven 'feathering' of the base as it swages down but this does not show up as leading or boolit yaw - just poor accuracy.

Flame cutting can show up in strange ways.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-314F_edited.jpg

No way to tell what this would have done to boolit flight. It didn't leave any visible lead in the bore.

[Doc Highwall]

wallenba, I agree that a larger bullet will help but I have a question. Did you remove the bolt and look in the bore after shooting say 5-10 rounds to see how the Alox was holding up for lead fouling?

[wallenba]

wallenba, I agree that a larger bullet will help but I have a question. Did you remove the bolt and look in the bore after shooting say 5-10 rounds to see how the Alox was holding up for lead fouling?

Doc, Yes I did look, as I had a previous post on that concern. All was fine there.

Regarding the use of Lyman #2, I assumed (I know I should not do that) it would be OK because the Lyman manual stated that was what they used in their test data in the 49th Edition page 249. Some how I locked away in my head that #2 was close to 19 BHN. 15 BHN, I'll remember know. I do have some LINO I can mix in the next melt too.

Larry, I'll do the Lee presizing trick. And I use LLA Alox thinned with mineral spirits only, 3 to 1. I have some Carnuba Red in the 4500 to try.

[swheeler]

"There is only slight leading just at the muzzle but the top of the bayonet lug is flashed with lead. What would that mean? "

To ME that is a good indication that your LLA is not doing it's job, try the Cred in the lubrisizer.

[longbow]

I'm with Jeff on boolit size and hardness.

I have a couple of No. 5's and a .308 I have shot cast in and find that they seem to be much fussier about fit and alloy hardness than larger bore (.44 and up). I find I get gas cutting at what should be moderate loads even with a boolit that just fits the throat.

From recovered ACWW boolits I have seen evidence of skidding showing wide grooves in the boolits and gas cutting along the edges of the grooves when using loads of 20+ grs. of IMR4227 under the NOE 316299 sized at 0.315".

I tried oven heat treating boolits and that seemed to make the difference.

Not sure if it is true but I seem to find that the smaller bore .30 cal. boolits suffer from gas cutting at pressures that do not bother my .44 or in the past my .45-70.

It may be pressure curve/acceleration, fast rifling twist, or...? but I find if I oven heat treat that extra hardness seems to help with the .303.

Also, I had good results using 19 grs. IMR4227 but checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and and decided that 22 grs. would be "better". Well, my gun didn't think so.

Ed Harris recommends 18 to 21 grs. 4227 to reproduce Mattern's 600 yard target and deer load.

So, my advice ~ try water dropping from the mould or oven heat treating and drop back two or three grains with IMR4227.

Longbow

[walltube]

wallenba,

You say a "new" barrell has been installed on your rifle. Perhaps there may be an inconspicuous metal to wood mis-fit adding to the misery? Not questioning the g'smith's skills (or yours) :) but as we are all aware, SMLE do have their peculiarities. Projectile dysfunction, in my limited experience, have been less troublesome to identify and correct than are the two piece stocked Enfield gremlins.

Kiwi Jeff's excellent article rescued me from the straight jacket squad when dealing with a certain No.4. Thank you Jeff. That and a fat, "beagled" water dropped NOE 316299 lubed with White Lable Red. At last, holes in my targets '9' ring; not the neighboring shooter's wooden target frame.

My 2sou, and good luck to you:
Harold

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=walltube;1299475]wallenba,

You say a "new" barrell has been installed on your rifle. Perhaps there may be an inconspicuous metal to wood mis-fit adding to the misery? Not questioning the g'smith's skills (or yours) :) but as we are all aware, SMLE do have their peculiarities. Projectile dysfunction, in my limited experience, have been less troublesome to identify and correct than are the two piece stocked Enfield gremlins.

That is a real possibility I overlooked. I will try to find some carbon copy paper. Do they even still make that stuff? Not many typewriters in use these days. What else may work?

[Larry Gibson]

Wallenba

If you use the LLA try it unthinned. If it's too gooey to apply just run a small bowl of hot tap water and let the bottle of LLA sit in it for about 5 minutes. That thins it for application really well. Obviously thinned with mineral spirits it is failing as a lube. If you don't like the LLA on the bullets nose I dab my index finger in the LLA and then just wipe it in/on the lube groooves and driving bands then let it dry, push the GC on the base and run it through a Lee sizer. Works for me.

Then again you might just use the Carnauba red as it should work fine.

Larry Gibson

[walltube]

"carbon copy paper" ? Oh man, I haven't a clue where that may be available. Mention "Oliveti" and the youngsters envision an Italian cocktail ingredient.

It's been trial and error with various thickness gasket materiel and strips of inner tube (there's another one :) ) cut to size. JeffinNZ and other Enfield gurus here will have shorter paths to success than I can offer. Barrell and knox form to wood adjustments have been the easiest, for me, to bring a hint of happiness at the target. As I said, SMLE have their peculiarities. My No.4 will only be satisfied after I get a .318 dia. 311284 with .305 nose. The water dropped, beagled 316299 comes close, but not quite..

Wishing you success, wallenba.
Wt.

[303Guy]

My .307 bored SMLE barreled LE I is a gem. Still polishing the otherwise mint bore. I'm guessing that whoever fitted that barrel couldn't get it to shoot so put it away. Well, now I benefit from an oversize bore in good condition.:cast_boolits:
Or at least, it will be when I've finished polishing it.:drinks:

[longbow]

I forgot to mention, I found some trouble with my RCBS dies in that the expander button left a 0.311" inside neck which is tight for my 0.315" boolits.

I found that some boolits with narrow driving bands were getting sized down more by the case neck. Also, I had a high "tear rate" when seating PP boolits.

I made a new expander button at 0.314". This seems to be helping with both GG and PP boolits.

Just another thought.

[Trifocals]

Start with an ABSOLUTELY CLEAN barrel. Slug the barrel, noting any tight or loose areas. Fire lap as necessary until the bore is uniform. Do a chamber cast or slug the bore to determine what diameter boolit should be used. It is possible that case necks sized too small may be reducing boolit diameter when the boolit is seated. Try seating boolits in cases that have NOT been neck sized, using only thumb pressure. Lube your boolits with Carnauba Red. What boolit velocity are you attempting to achieve? If velocity in the neighborhood of 1400 fps would be satisfactory, try straight WW with 1%-2% tin added. Remember, the boolit must seal the bore to prevent gas cutting from blowby. Oftentimes a boolit too hard that allows blowby gas cutting will ruin accuracy. Also a bore with very oversize loose spots will allow blowby gas cutting. If your barrel is as uniform as possible from breech to muzzle, try soft boolit alloys using a good lube, the idea being to allow the softer alloy boolit to positively obturate due to pressure. Alloys as soft as 40:1 are worth trying. In the black powder days 20:1 and 30:1 alloys were quite common and are used quite effectively, even today. Unless your barrel is a total piece of junk, suitable only for use as a jack handle or tent peg, I feel extensive experimenting will yield a decent shooter. LOL Trifocals