The Perfect PPCB

[CJR]

When I started PP, I used standard available 30 cal. cast bullet moulds which dropped bullets at about 0.311"D to 0.314"D. These standard bullets were then sized down to 0301"D before PP. The NRA stated these standard moulds were suitable for PPCB. The NRA then developed two 30 cal. moulds, 160gr. & ~200 gr, specifically for PPCB that dropped bullets at about 0.301"D. So I've always wondered which mould is the preferred way to go. After sending many PPCB downrange, I've concluded the standard moulds are better for the following reasons.

When I prepare my standard CB, I size them to 0.301"D. This sizing operation swages any internal casting voids closed in the lead CB so there are no internal gross cavities to cause flight unbalances. I then PP the CB and size the PPCB to 0.308"D which most likely does not swage the CB again. However, since I'm shooting my PPCB at hi-vel, the reloading data indicates I'm operating at close to 50,000 psi peak pressure. That means the 50,000 psi is swaging my PPCB, a second time, so that the PPCB fits my barrel's rifling perfectly. So when my PPCB exits the muzzle, its been swaged twice and my CB accurately flies to the target with a minimum of unbalancing internal voids.

If I were using a 0.301"D CB dropped from a special PPCB mould, it would be either be used as dropped from the mould or trued slightly by sizing it to 0.301"D. Either way, no significant swaging of the CB would occur to eliminate internal casting voids. If I then used a hard bullet and loaded the PPCB to low velocity, no significant swaging during firing would occur because of the lower firing pressure. Hence, the CB would fly to the target with its internal unbalancing voids.

So it appears to me, that using a standard CB mould at hi-vel is preferred over any custom mould dropping 0.301"D CB because the standard CB is swaged twice before it flies to the target. The more I reload these PPCB, the simpler the loading process becomes. Comments?

Best regards,

CJR

.

[303Guy]

There's a lot being said there. Lots of thinking and digesting required. I like the way you think. You think outside the box.

[1874Sharps]

303Guy,

I am curious to hear your opinion on this after you have thought about it, as you have made the most interesting and curious dedicated PP boolit molds I have ever seen and, as I recall, used standard boolit molds in the manner CJR describes. What has been your experience in this regard?

[barrabruce]

One fact I have found is.

If I size down a normal bullet gc design the nose and grease grooves are the same diameter.
Then patch it then size again.
When you cut the patch off and measure.
The grease groves diameter is larger than the nose section

Could this has to have some bearing on things as well as holding the paper better-er.

Barra

[pdawg_shooter]

I have always had better luck with GG bullets sized down to bore diameter +.001/.0015. In the past I have had, and sold half a dozen or so smooth sided PP molds. Just what works for me.

[1874Sharps]

Do you gentlemen use gas checks on your PP boolits?

[Jim]

.....This sizing operation swages any internal casting voids closed in the lead CB so there are no internal gross cavities to cause flight unbalances.....CJR .

CJ, the physics of that fascinates me! I was always under the impression that trapped air(I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say "voids") could be compressed but not displaced by compression.
If the void is actually closed up by sizing, do you suppose there's a microscopic pocket of compressed air trapped in the casting? I'm not suggesting this would produce a negative result, I'm just fascinated about what comes of that small amount of air.

Please, share your thoughts and knowledge on this. Inquiring minds want to know!:mrgreen:

[nanuk]

Jim, In Canada those types of boolits would be illegal.

they would be considered "Explosive" projectiles as the air pocket would be pressured to... who knows..

[pdawg_shooter]

Do you gentlemen use gas checks on your PP boolits?

Nope, dont need them. The paper IS the check.

[303Guy]

I'm still digesting all this. These are things I have thought about and tried to picture in my mind. My molds are unique in that they create a steady stream down the middle of the mold so tend to form external voids or a single long thin void down the middle as the alloy cools and shrinks. Fortunately, both types are visible.

Swaging of voids would be more significant toward the rear of the boolit and likely non-existant toward the front. We have all heard of boolit nose 'slump'. How much of that is due to a void near the front I wonder? But if nose slumping takes place then why not internal void collapse? And what would the developed air pressure within that collapses void do to the boolit? If we assume a void gets compressed to half the chamber pressure will the alloy be able to hold that pressure after boolit exit?

A test would be to fire a cast boolit with unlubed lube grooves and recover that boolit and see if the lube groove has collapsed any.

[CJR]

I no longer use any gas checks on my PPCB, and they don't seem to mind. The existence of casting voids has been shown in many books, etc. My guess is that since the voids are typically small and air is very compressible, the voids get collapsed/reduced in sizing with a minimal residual pressure. If the void doesn't get closed down in sizing, it surely does when the CB is exposed to 50,000 psi in a hi-vel load and the inertial mass of the CB on acceleration.

Best regards,

CJR

[giz189]

CJR, just wondering what alloy you are using on your hi-vel loads?

[leftiye]

So, the ideal boolit for paper might be a straight core which was then swaged to desired diameter (bore plus 1) with a short ogive - maybe with small grooves machined in (yah, I'd do that) to grip the patch? You could even swage cores which were long enough to put into a lathe and machine to final dimensions. Maybe without a check, but loaded with COW or something filler?

[303Guy]

I suspect there is no 'ideal' or perfect PPCB because of throat differences. I would say there could be an ideal throat design for PPCB's with an ideal PPCB and that would then be a straight sided boolit. It seems the requirement is either a tapered PPCB entering into a tapered throat (long shallow leade angle) so that the taper presses the patch onto the CB so that it grips the paper firmly. Steeper leade angles that require a bore-ride style boolit need more grip from the casting like shallow grooves or lube grooves. The patch can get pushed down a smooth side. I have samples of crinkled fired patches proving that the patch slid on the boolit.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-501F-1.jpg

[CJR]

giz89,

I use a mixture of lead and WW, water-dropped from the mould. After hardening, the CB measure 15BHN with my LBT hardness tester.

leftiye,

In the out-of-print NRA's Cast Bullet Handbook, by Col. E.H. Harrison, the NRA experimented with plain no grease groove cast bullets, bullets with grease grooves machined in, and different diameters for PPCB. They found, for 30 cal, that bullets with grease grooves at 0.301"D were best and then they had Lyman make two moulds based on their research. These bullets were then used to exceed 3000 fps in a 300 Win Mag; i.e. hi-vel/high pressure loads. Paul Matthews, in his book "The Paper Jacket", liked smooth sided bullets. So it appears to me, that if you're shooting low-vel/low pressure loads, PP stripping from the CB is less likely in the barrel and smooth/no grease groove CB appear to be fine. However, I found that when you're pushing hi-vel/hi-pressures, PP stripping from the CB is more likely. My solution, with my grooved bullets, was to use the toughest paper (100% cotton Velum) and that got me to 3000+fps and tight groups. The grooves on the CB kept the PP from stripping from the CB while traveling in the barrel. Barrel brushing at the range indicated no leading like when I first started with weaker papers. When the NRA's groups opened up at 3000+fps, their successful solution to reduce group sizes was to just add a little more lube to the PPCB . So if you can get the PP to survive in the barrel, then adding a little more lube should tighten groups. That's an easy fix!

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

So it appears to me, that if you're shooting low-vel/low pressure loads, PP stripping from the CB is less likely in the barrel and smooth/no grease groove CB appear to be fine.It would seem then that a compromise would do no harm, that is, shallow, narrow grooves down the length of the shank. Or perhaps knurling of existing smooth sided boolits.

Was anything said about the optimum paper thickness?

[X-Pilot]

303, do you know if anyone has tried to pp a 22 hornet? I am trying to get one to shoot sub moa at high vel, just ordered a 225107 from Swede, what about trying to pp that bullet? I have small hands (LOL)
your thoughts
x-pilot



It would seem then that a compromise would do no harm, that is, shallow, narrow grooves down the length of the shank. Or perhaps knurling of existing smooth sided boolits.

Was anything said about the optimum paper thickness?

[CJR]

Was anything said about the optimum paper thickness?

303Guy,

I assume you meant NRA statements about "optimum paper thickness? In the NRA's Cast Bullet manual, as best as I can determine, they first started with 0.002" paper wrapped around 0.309"D standard cast bullets. Then that evolved to 0.301"D sized bullets wrapped with 0.035" paper and final sized to 0.308"D. The NRA also mentioned that Crane 100% rag paper was best, with what I assume was a thickness of 0.035". Crane paper at that time was not available unless someone ordered a couple tons of it. A reader wrote to the NRA and asked if Crane 100% rag paper was still best. The NRA's answer on pg. 106, reads, " The American Rifleman staff has found that Crane paper is still the best for patching bullets in full-power smokeless calibers." Since Crane 100% rag paper is not available, I started using readily available 100% cotton Vellum paper up to 3000+ fps. Also, in the NRA's article on 3000+fps loads in the 300 Win Mag, I couldn't find any mention of type paper or thickness used.

When I started testing all kinds of papers, I tried all pound classifications,i.e. 9lb, 16lb., 20lb. etc. What I found out, after "miking" the papers, was that the thicknesses didn't correlate with what the NRA & Paul Matthews were stating for certain paper weights. I concluded, different manufacturers use different chemical sizing compounds to bulk up/give body to the paper. Therefore, depending on who's making the paper, knowing the paper weight didn't really correlate to a specific thickness. Lesson learned? Mike all papers and forget about a weight measurement to give you a paper thickness.

While I was reviewing the NRA's Cast Bullet manual, on paper thicknesses, I came across an interesting tid-bit of info concerning gas checks. Pg. 73 reads in part, "The gas checks were tested by reducing Lyman checks in specially made dies and machining the bullet bases to fit. Gas checks had to be smaller than the bullet body, to keep target groups from stringing vertically". Who wants to do that to use gas checks? To me that's one more reason NOT to use gas checks; i.e. eliminate unneeded steps. What's evolving for me is a pretty simple PPCB loading procedure that's getting faster everyday.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

X-Pilot (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=7096)
I have. It seems like such a perfect cartridge for cast and paper patching but it is so small! I did not get any further than to make molds and patch ip a few RCBS 55gr castings I had and fire them into my test tube. To me, Hodgdon's Lil'Gun is the way to go. Unsized cases, 'paper cup' seating and either cast or paper patched. Depending on your guns chamber, the paper patched boolit might seat just fine. Mine didn't and needed the paper cup. With j-words the paper cup and a compressed charge of Lil'Gun drove that 55gr bullet to around 2700fps using R-P cases. The cases are important as they vary so much in capacity. It doesn't matter which case you use but for top end performance R-P's are the ones. For a smooth sided round nose or flat nose you could be looking at a 60gr boolit. That's important because it gives the boolit precious size to hold onto while patching! Lube those loaded cartridges and the cases will last forever. Don't go over pressuring the cartridge lest the gun breaks (yeah right!) For Lil'Gun you doo need a heavy boolit and a substantial charge getting into the compressed zone to ensure good ignition and consistant burn.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that CJR :drinks:

I never could understand the #'s rating of paper. I only ever measured thickness and 'softnes', i.e. compressability. I like the thicker and softer printer paper (the cheap variety) but I haven't attempted high velocity loads - yet. I like slow powders and I find that a heavy boolit is best in the absence of neck tension. I find that soft paper compresses nicely into the case mouth and can't be pulled out by hand or move in the magazine. Only one of my guns has so far proved accurate with the thicker and softer paper. The other accurate one liked lined notepad paper but I did not try the other because it was about fit. Now I'm going to be trying my 'Gem' and there it's the notepad paper again for the same reason - fit. But I will be making a new mould specific for thicker paper.

[X-Pilot]

303,
Talk to me about the "paper cup" I am with you on everything else.
Thanks,
X-Pilot




X-Pilot (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=7096)
I have. It seems like such a perfect cartridge for cast and paper patching but it is so small! I did not get any further than to make molds and patch ip a few RCBS 55gr castings I had and fire them into my test tube. To me, Hodgdon's Lil'Gun is the way to go. Unsized cases, 'paper cup' seating and either cast or paper patched. Depending on your guns chamber, the paper patched boolit might seat just fine. Mine didn't and needed the paper cup. With j-words the paper cup and a compressed charge of Lil'Gun drove that 55gr bullet to around 2700fps using R-P cases. The cases are important as they vary so much in capacity. It doesn't matter which case you use but for top end performance R-P's are the ones. For a smooth sided round nose or flat nose you could be looking at a 60gr boolit. That's important because it gives the boolit precious size to hold onto while patching! Lube those loaded cartridges and the cases will last forever. Don't go over pressuring the cartridge lest the gun breaks (yeah right!) For Lil'Gun you doo need a heavy boolit and a substantial charge getting into the compressed zone to ensure good ignition and consistant burn.

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

After the petals had been cut off using an upside down 223 case, I would dip the cartridge into molten 'waxy-lube' to soak up into the paper hand towel cup. This would 'glue' the bullet firmly in place and provide plenty of lube. Accuracy was superb.

'Waxy lube' is a equal mix of candle wax, STP and beeswax or Alox or any other stick lube.

I would compress the powder down the neck with a ramrod to a set depth to make room for the cup and bullet. If not done like that the powder would slowly push the bullet out. The compressed powder would also prevent the possibility of the bullet being pushed deeper into the case.

[X-Pilot]

303,
What is that funny little gadget/die on the left? the one holding the paper prior to being forced into the case? Would the powder depth in the neck create your over all cartridge length? Unsized fire formed case right? seat by hand until the bullet reaches the base of the cup which sits on top of the powder. size and GC the bullets? This is doable, I am retired and have all the time in the world. Swede's 225107 with about 13 gr of Lil-gun should produce good results don't you think? Rifle is an Anne 1430 HB 15.5 twist slugged @.224.

I just checked and I would need to expand the neck by .010" in order to accept the cup (.005 paper towel) I can turn a mandrel .235" and expand the neck, then make the cup, do you think the chamber will accept the case being this large? Paper towel is necessary? nothing thinner? The width of the paper for the cup? 3.14x.225=.7065/4=.176 so they should be 176 thousands wide correct?
Thanks,
X-Pilot



http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

After the petals had been cut off using an upside down 223 case, I would dip the cartridge into molten 'waxy-lube' to soak up into the paper hand towel cup. This would 'glue' the bullet firmly in place and provide plenty of lube. Accuracy was superb.

'Waxy lube' is a equal mix of candle wax, STP and beeswax or Alox or any other stick lube.

I would compress the powder down the neck with a ramrod to a set depth to make room for the cup and bullet. If not done like that the powder would slowly push the bullet out. The compressed powder would also prevent the possibility of the bullet being pushed deeper into the case.

[303Guy]

The gadget is for setting the paper cup in place. It has a relief for the neck. The powder charge does indeed set the seating depth although it doesn't have to. I'd have to look up my powder charges. All I can remember is that I used more than 13grs with a 55gr j-word and my rifle's bore was .223. I think mine had an oversize chamber. It is a Annie of the model range that included 222 (1431/32 rings a bell) so I wasn't overly concerned about pressure, other than it causing case elongation.

By the way, I let mine headspace on the case mouth so the case length needed to be accurately controlled. The mouth rim did turn inward just a tad. This stopped case elongation if the rate was low enough, meaning, not too much forward thrust on the mouth.

I seem to think I was using single ply paper hand towel.

[CJR]

303Guy,

Your strip patches are COOL! Many years ago strip PP were used to set 200 yd records with muzzle loading rifles and CB. Your approach is very unique for a modern rifle. What were your results for CB?

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

I don't recall actually trying them in the field - only into the test tube. And yet I have this feeling that I couldn't or didn't get them to work well so I might have at some stage. The castings I had/have were not a success. They were not well formed. Later on I made a smooth sided mold and still have a few samples but I'm sure I never field tested those. One day I might just give it a try again but plain cast, knurled and hot dip lubed as the strip patch is being soaked in molten lube. The strip patches leave no impression on the boolit which is curious.

X-Pilot

I checked my notes and the charge of Lil'Gun I was using was 13.6 or 13.7gr under the 55gr j-word. I worked that load up very carefully so as not to elongate cases taking into consideration the chamber volume and the fact that compressing Lil'Gun seems to slow down its burn speed or at least reduce the pressure rise rate. The hornet is actually a wonderful little cartridge which can actually outperform the K-hornet with Lil'Gun and match the 221 Fireball. That's because Lil'Gun starts to go ballistic at higher charges in larger bottleneck cases. It's weired stuff!

Oh, I found a note saying I got 0.69 MOA at 200m with the hornet. I know it was deadly accurate and flat shooting out to 160m (175yds) and potent on feral goats but I never shot one further than 100yds.

I forgot to check what model my hornet is.

Oh yes, I used double ply paper hand towel and the strip widths were 4mm nominal.

[X-Pilot]

303,
Here is the progress made today. I turned an expander mandrel .2295 this is the largest I can expand the case neck and still chamber the round in Anne. I cut a couple of strips from a Bounty paper towel, it is 2 ply, I separated the plys and made a cup. The paper tore about 1/2 the way in and when extracted the base of the bullet was bare. I am going to get a 224 sizer die to see if that additional .001 will be the answer. I am using a 55 grain lyman 225415 bullet. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated, you obviously have more experience here than I.
Thanks,
X-Pilot

[303Guy]

Aah. It's impotant that the case mouth be chamfered. If your chamber is that tight then you might simply use my other trick.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-030F_edited.jpg

Drop a warm to hot boolit onto the lube ball and it melts into place. Be sure the card wad seals properly. I used this trick before I discovered the paper hand towel cup trick which held the bullet concentric and soaked up the lube. It produced good accuracy with 50gr bullets and H4227/AR2205 which did not fill the case.

Of course, a j-word has very smooth sides so will slip into the cup with no problems.

[1874Sharps]

CJR,

I do not doubt the NRA's results and testing with gas checks, however the dedicated smooth-sided 30 caliber 168 grain boolit I cast from a custom made mold does have a standard gas check shank and uses a gas check. It shoots quite well at velocities up to 2800 fps (I have no 30 caliber rifles faster than a 30-06), especially in my M1 Garand and 7.5 Swiss. The patch rests just in front of the gas check and the boolit measures 0.301" and when shot, the gas check (0.309") remains in place. I suspect the shape of the spitzer nose and aerodynamic forces (the aerodynamic center of the boolit) may be a factor in explaining why this particular boolit defies the NRA results. I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat and that there are numerous factors in play that contribute to either the success or failure of a given PPCB.

[CJR]

1874Sharps,

Your results are very interesting. The NRA quote only states "their assessment", which may or may not be true. In some literature that I've read, on bullet designs, an effort is always made to regulate the locations of the fixed Center of Gravity (CG) and the moving Center of Aerodynamic Pressure (CP). Therefore, I would think that if the location of the CG or CP were marginal, the addition or deletion of a gas check could unbalance a bullet enough to cause vertical stringing on the target. The NRA machining the gas check, to be less in diameter then the bullet diameter, could've been nothing more than a slight alteration in CG location. Likewise, under severe acceleration of lead bullets, the nose could deform backwards, as Hornady found on some bullet designs, and that would also favorably/unfavorably affect CG & CP locations (i.e. accuracy). Thoughts to ponder.

Best regards,

CJR

[1874Sharps]

CJR,

Sounds reasonable to me! I learn much from your posts and those of the other experimenters here.

[303Guy]

I learn much from your posts and those of the other experimenters here. CJR, I enjoy your posts. You add a whole new dimension to my learning.

I found a shadowgram of a bullet and the muzzle blast and you can actually see the angle of yaw! I believe that yaw is caused by the muzzle blast itself. If so then a good design suppressor would reduce yaw considerably. The fact that a 22 hornet with a 1-in-16 twist can stabilize a 60gr spire point bullet while a 1-in-14 twist 220 Swift can't would indicate so. (Bear in mind that the 220 Swift part is hearsay on my part.:roll: So maybe it actually can).

[CJR]

303Guy,

We're all learning here. In my view, launching any bullet design without yaw is tough if not impossible to do. The key is to have a bullet design such that the aerodynamic flows around the CB damps out the yaw oscillation so that CB becomes stable at long ranges. For that case, the CB flies to the target on a spiral flight path with the spiral getting tighter in diameter as the CB becomes more stable. There are some CB designs where the yaw oscillation keeps increasing and the spiral path to the target increases in diameter and the CB can land anywhere. Increases/decreases in the yaw angle changes the aerodynamic lift forces acting on the CB and that is what causes the spiral flight paths to increase/decrease in diameter. So it follows that if the CB design is proper, but the CB gets yawed on barrel exit, the aerodynamic forces should damp out the yaw oscillations and the CB's flight should be stable and accurate to the target. Locations of CG and CP are critical for accurate CB designs. So, in my view, once you find an accurate CB design at long range, you stick with it.

Years ago, there were many CB designs sold that were stable up to say 50 yards and then became unstable and would fly anywhere. In NRA studies, they identified those bad CB designs and then the mould manufacturers quickly dropped those designs. Today, we are fortunate that the accurate CB designs are known and can be copied/cloned.

Best regards,

CJR

[X-Pilot]

303,
Today brought many challenges, albeit I got through most with little hassle. I had to build a thingie (left side of your picture) as a fixture is needed to both hold the case and to locate the paper strips center on the case. Once that was completed and all of the products purchased for the lube. BTW which STP should I have bought? I purchased the gasoline additive..... any way I was able to put together 10 bullets by the end of the day, which was beyond my expectations for today. I even pulled some test bullets to be sure the lube was penetrating the cup, I had to submerge the loaded cases a little longer, until all the bubbles stopped about 1 1/2 minutes it is fairly hot, about 200 degrees. If the weather is good I'll get to the range tomorrow. It takes about 4 minutes each with the 1 1/2 submersion so that is not too bad.
Thanks,
Pete

[303Guy]

BTW which STP should I have bought?I should have clarified that one - sorry. It's the smoke stopper that I use. It's not to say it's the only thing that will work but I like the feel of it and it does seem to be a good lubricant and it does tend to stay in place in the bore.

I worked out a time count which did correlate to the bubbles slowing down. I pulled a few samples to check that the waxy-lube was getting all the way to the bullet base evenly. I found it easier to wipe off the exess lube after it had set but was still soft. That way it balled up and was easy to drop back into the pot. I made an electric heater pot using high wattage resistors a elements and ran it of a low voltage transformer. Too hot and the waxy lube turns black after a while. It darkens anyway.

[X-Pilot]

303,
That STP has the consistency of honey, am I correct? I could not find it I figured that was what you used but it seems to no longer be in the market place, I tried a couple of stores before I purchased the gas treatment one. The fumes stink but other than that it feels good and stays in place once hardened. The brown color must come from the Alox. Had a Dr. change my appointment so I will not get to the range tomorrow, it will have to be Wednesday. I chickened out on the 13.6-7 gr. of Lil-gun. I only used 13 as I have shot that load prior albeit with a 45 gr CB Lyman # 225438. It shot into about a 10" group not good. I could not get that bullet to shoot, I went from 13 gr. to 6.6 gr. by 2 tenths 5 shot groups every interval and did not get anything worth playing with. I sure hope this pp is the answer for cast in this Hornet. I have not had the results that others have with cast in this rifle.
Thanks,
X-Pilot

[303Guy]

Honey is correct. Any smoke stopper will work just fine - it's all the same I should think. As long at the lube sets stiff it should work. I found that the boolit lube is what made the mix go dark. There is also some sedimentation that takes place. Curious.

I wouldn't just start at 13.6grs. How I went about is I took a case, squared off the mouth, miked its length then proceded to work up until there was a measureable elongation. I then worked up and found the degree of elongation was proportional to the charge. When the case hit max chamber length it stopped elongating. All the while I was watching those primers for flattening and cratering and all that. I was using Federal small rifle primers which are supposed to be softer than others, more sensitive but mild. So rounded edges were required. Anyway, it did give a relative indication of pressure. I also did a series of penetration and expansion tests.

We should start a new thread for this don't you think? It's your project so would you like to? I'm interested in plain cast in mine cause I find the paper patches too difficult to apply (not that that's stopped me before - there is always a way of making it easier!) Also to consider is that hot dip lubing might not work with paper - the patch is not supposed to be saturated with lube, especially one that will glue the patch to the boolit. Then again, 100% cotton paper might make a jacket that stays on.

[X-Pilot]

303/CJR,
Yaw flight increase is the results of the paper strips experiment, the CB never stabilized the only thing that went right was the disintegration of the pp at about 15 feet in front of the muzzle after that it was all down hill not even MOM (minute of mammoth). I am going to wait until Swede's NOE 225107 arrives and go with straight cast and gc
X-Pilot

[CJR]

X-Pilot,

I don't understand what your "Anne" rifle is. But if it's a 22 Hornet I have a couple of questions/comments:
1. Is your CB sized to your bore diameter or bore diameter + 0.0015"?
2. For the 22 Hornet's chamber, the entrance diameter of the forcing cone is spec'd at 0.2291"D. Therefore, if the PPCB is to enter the entrance of the chamber's forcing cone without PP tearing, your final sized PPCB diameter should be about 0.227".
3. Your PPCB should be seated against the forcing cone (NRA suggestion). If you have a bore rider CB design and PP over the leading edge of the first driving band, the OAL should be adjusted to place the PP against the chamber's forcing cone. If you have an ogival CB design, the leading edge of the PP should be over the start of the ogvie and the OAL adjusted to place the PP against the chamber's forcing cone.
4. It is the general consensus of many that 100% loading density is best for PPCB accuracy. I use progressive burning powders (W748,W760), as recommended by the NRA. These powders can be identified easily in reloading manuals; i.e. look for the fastest velocity at the lowest pressure.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

I use progressive burning powders (W748,W760), as recommended by the NRA. These powders can be identified easily in reloading manuals; i.e. look for the fastest velocity at the lowest pressure. Lil'Gun is the one for the hornet - not the only one but a good one.

X-Pilot
I think some of us at least have tried and given up on the hornet because it is a little challenging (pun intended!) Thing is, I at least, simply don't know how to make the hornet work with pp but if you were to experiment with it you could teach me how. The potential there is a 55gr PPCB doing in excess of 2700fps and with impressive accuracy! Maybe a hybrid patched CB is the answer. By the way, I did some experimenting with a paper sleave. I didn't persue this but it did make creating and fitting the patches easy.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-026F.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-016F.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-021F.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-026F.jpg

[X-Pilot]

303,
Please PM me with the specifications of the pre rolled patches, number of wraps material both paper and wetting compound and I'll try it, my twist is 15.75" to one turn of the bullet so it is a bit slow, I may try a little lighter bullet. The 225438 comes to mind at 45 gr. BTW, my NOE 225107 arrived yesterday cute little bullet.
Thanks,
X-Pilot

[X-Pilot]

CJR,
"Anne" is endearing term for Anschutz.
Bore diameter plus .001-.002 barrel slugged at .223+ (lands) [.221+ bore] bullets sized at .225 with 1 ply of paper added. Seated .010 off of the lands
OK
I'll try some 760
Thanks/frustrated, I was hoping for better results
X-Pilot

[nanuk]

are you saying your "Anne" has only 0.001 depth for rifleing?

[CJR]

X-Pilot,

Though I've fired Anshutz rifles, I've didn't know "Anne" referred to them. Sometimes, all it takes is a little load "tweaking" to go from complete failure to success. You might want to increase the OAL to place the PPCB against the chamber's forcing cone. Ideally, set the OAL slightly long and let your rifle do the final seating against the forcing cone. Also, sometimes it takes a little time for the PP to "condition" your bore; i.e. polish it to a mirror finish. As the Romans said, "He who perseveres, is victorious"!

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

are you saying your "Anne" has only 0.001 depth for rifleing? Sounds like 22lr barrel. I have one or two lying arround that I want to build into a cast boolit rifle but looking at those shallow grooves ... ?

My Annie has normal depth grooves but .223 groove diameter. I use .224 diameter bullets in it. I don't remember what diameter boolits I tried but what I've got lying around is a .226 boolit and a .224 PPCB. I have an unpatched core measuring .2165
Curiously, I measured a 22lr boolit and it comes out at .224!

X-Pilot
I just need to find all the bits and hopefully any notes I may have made and I'll PM you.