Latest Rifle magazine issue

[BABore]

Did anybody read Mike Venturino's article in the latest "Rifle" magazine issue? It was about him being a lousy shot compared to some of the keyboard commando's.

Towards the end of the article was a little piece about us, or this site. Although Cast Boolits was not mentioned by name, I did recognize the story as I was one of the posters involved in the subject thread. Here's the link to the thread.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105847

I read the article a couple times and pretty much agree with the bulk of it. There's alot of BS out there. Memories tend to get stuck on that past, one-hole, bragging group and a gun becomes a bughole or 1 MOA legend that performs on command. At least from behind the keyboard. I'm not a benchrester nor do I shoot in competitions. I shoot for fun and for hunting. I have 3-shot group guns and some 5-shot group guns. They get rung out based on their ability and that's what they are. I always try to give an honest picture based on how I shoot. If you expect 10-shot groups from me, tough! I report what I shoot period. You can interpet what you want.

What I did take slight offense to in Mike's article was his reference to the thread topic listed above. It made no mention of the fact that applying some benchrest techniques to a rough Mil-surp rifle was done with cast boolits nor why it was done. There was no reference to cast boolits at all. Just that applying benchrest techiques to a rifle with poor sights was more or less a fools errand.

I've fired a few Mil-surps with issue sights and can hit with them, but usually get no better than 1 3/4 to 2 moa at 100 yards when all things are perfect. This is with jacketed ammo. I'm not that proud, so I fitted my VZ-24 with a 1/16 gold bead and peep sight. I shoot that much better. But, that wasn't the point of the original thread that generated Mike's comment. The OP wanted to know what it took to make his VZ-24 shoot cast well. Myself and others pointed out the need for good boolit fit and how to fit it. This included reforming commercial and military 30'-06 cases so that you could get past the often large military chambers. That was the referred to "benchrest technique".

When Mike got involved in this thread I explained why many of us were loading for the VZ and other Mauser like this and gave a detailed example of my rifle's situation. Was I being overly anal or should I have told the OP to just take any boolit that was 0.001" over groove and it would be the best he could hope for? Yes, some here do just that. There's nothing wrong with that if your happy with the results. But, what if your not? What if you think you might want to do better? Now Mike claimed that another poster told him he was just a lousy shot and that he had no need to benefit from these special "benchrest" techniques. I reread the thread and saw no such comments. I did see on comment where "if you just just want to go bang" then you don't need to do this stuff. Maybe Mike took it the wrong way. I didn't cause I do just that. If I'm loading plinking stuff, I don't bother. It's only when I want to push the cast envelope that I take extra measures. I did point this out in that thread as well.

I have no big beef with Mike and hope he will stop back in here to get involved in more of these discussions. Did the particulars get editted out of the article so I took it the wrong way? Does Mike really understand why we do some of the things we do to get the best we can out of an ancient military relic? Or any cast boolit gun for that matter. Some do just want to go bang. Some don't. That don't mean anybody is a lousy shot.

[1Shirt]

I don't believe that Mike or me for example will ever understand some of the things that I read that is written by the so called keyboard commandos. Am inclined to go with experiance as being a reality. So---------I tend to agree with mike the majority of the time. There are a lot of ego factors experssed on this forum, much of which is fueled by that occaisional and rare 5 shot half minute rifle.
1Shirt!

[BABore]

And I fully agree with that and also stated that about the article. What I took offense at is the topic of the thread and methods to get better accuracy out of often grossly oversized chambers and throats were poo pooed as unecessary due to the poor sights. So! Do something about it and quit complaining. I didn't like a worthy topic and methods getting lumped in with a bunch of keyboard commandos because all the facts were not given. It hit home cause I was giving sound, proven, advise.

[redneckdan]

meh.....i found the article entertaining. Do what ever makes you happy. When I had an 8x57 I formed '06 cases because I was/am cheap. Never gave a mind to neck tension. I appreciate Mike/s efforts to help us poke fun at our selves.


Speaking of which....how do you tell between a fish nut and a rifle looney?















With the fish nut the numbers get bigger every time the story is retold......

[Piedmont]

Something I have noticed at Wolfe Publishing, and Handloader is the only magazine I subscribe to, is the frequent trashing of the internet. Sure, there are people on the internet who don't know what they are talking about. You figure out who is full of smelly stuff, and whose opinions you can trust..........just like with gunzine writers!!!! That is the part they always miss. Dave Scovill doesn't sit at God's right hand and neither do his writers.

[1Shirt]

I don't believe that Mike or me for example will ever understand some of the things that I read that is written by the so called keyboard commandos. Am inclined to go with experiance as being a reality. So---------I tend to agree with Mike the majority of the time. There are a lot of ego factors experssed on this forum, much of which is fueled by that occaisional and rare 5 shot half minute group.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[45 2.1]

There are a lot of ego factors experssed on this forum, much of which is fueled by that occaisional and rare 5 shot half minute rifle.
1Shirt!

Read my tag line........... a lot of those ego factors are based on what that particular person believes is possible, not what actually can be done IF you put time, dedication and materials forth to prove it is possible. People blind themselves............


I did see on comment where "if you just just want to go bang" then you don't need to do this stuff. Maybe Mike took it the wrong way. Some do just want to go bang. Some don't.

That would be my comment after he asked what it took. He was told and probably didn't believe either. You get out of it what you put in it........... sometimes you hit the mother lode and some times you don't. Without exploring the possibilities, your not getting anything. 1.5 MOA from a military is fine, but they can do much better if you know how. Those methods have been told to you many times now. If you want more, then you have the path, Its up to you how far you will go.

[frank505]

Hey! Get it right!!! it is www.internet commando.com they know everything about everything and we are simple dummys.

[44man]

My opinion of mil-surp! If the bore is not worn out or rusted away, some of those things shoot better then what you buy in the stores today brand new. Sometimes even a pitted barrel will amaze you.
BR loading for them? Heck yeah, why not? You might want to avoid neck turning but precision loading does work for them.
They were after all, very well made guns.
As always with any gun you own, the better the gun will shoot, the better shot you will be.

[Tom-ADC]

Went on the website an ordered a free current issue, will probably subscribe later.

[Nrut]

You can lead them to the water but ya can't make them drink..

[Buckshot]

.............When I read the article I went :idea: when I read that '-06 to 8mm conversion. Figured it had to come from here. :-)

...............Buckshot

[AnthonyB]

I got my magazine yesterday and have no beef with the overall points made in the article. However, I am disappointed by the words he chooses to set off with quotation marks - they paraphrase posts in the earlier thread, but are not true quotations. Even worse is the second sentence of the article paragraph in question, which begins with “Against my better judgment I logged into another Internet shooters’ forum….”
I could see that point of view for some Internet forums, but not this one.
Tony

[felix]

Tony, I am wondering why Mike would care what was written elsewhere? Why does he feel threatened? Hopefully, he is not following that Jimbo-Jumbo guy with ill concepts. ... felix

[BABore]

I'm thinking some of it had something to do with an ongoing thread over on 24Hrcampfire.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5303726/Is_it_true_that_Mule_Deer_and_#Post5303726

I read through most of it and it seems some ******* called Mike out, shot a match against him, and got his butt wiped by Mike. I'm sure Mike gets alot of BS email and the like and who knows, maybe it all came to a head. Bob was being his normal self here with his comment and Mike likely took it the wrong way. What was said was straight and to the point and brutally honest. It was also true.

[felix]

Well, it looks like just a fun thread to me. Nothing serious, and full of 8 cylinder (MPG) jokes. I see no reason why Mike should not reference the thread and location by name in his article. It's just a game! Or, it SHOULD be. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Frankly, I appreciated Mike's candor about some of the cast bullet accuracy claims regarding milsurps with issue sights, especially the open barrel mounted rear sights. I also appreciate BaBore's candor regarding his accuracy with same.

Larry Gibson

[tophet1]

I found the article refreshing and honest. The internet is a great place to share info and while combing through various forums, info jumps out at me as either ringing true, being helpfull or a load of rubbish.

Ultimately though, we are responsible for what we choose to use (and what works for us) in the field.

[45 2.1]

I just read the article............ Bruce was right about the article. Here is an official invitation to Mr. Venturino......... Bring those $100 bills your so fond of and be prepared to loose them. You can even bring your stock iron or scope sighted military 8mm's and can see what they'll do with proper ammo. You'll get to see MOA and less five shot groups at 100 yards out of stock military rifles with cast boolits. The shoot will be in southern Illinois at my place when our little group meets here at our next yearly shoot. More witnesses that way.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Are those 5 shot groups with "stock military rifles" going to be with cast bullet loads that are under 1900 fps or HV in the 2300 - 2500+ fps range?

Are those "stock military rifles" going to me older bolt action true milsurp rifles with issue sights or are they going to be ARs military look alikes in exotic non imilitary cartridges?

If those 5 shot less than moa groups (assuming 100 yards or longer range) are going to be from an issue original bolt action milsurp rifle with issue sights then I'd sure like to see that. I can bring a few $100 bills also.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

I leafed through the ,while at the store yesterday and saw the article, but did not buy it. I guess I will have buy it now.

While I have not read the article and only know it's content from this thread, I must say that I have read countless posts here, that made me say to myself...."Yeah right!".

I am well over a half century deep into rifle craft and there are folks here that claim results that I feel are well beyond the mechanical ability of the rifle in question. They do things that I have never seen done and I have spent generations hanging around rifle ranges.

The response of these folks is always, I have the secret and you don't, or come and let me show you. I don't have the money or inclination to travel all around the United States having these folks try and demonstrate to me their shooting magic. I am not a true believer in shooting magic.

I have reached the point in my life when I have had sufficient experience to trust in that experience and draw my opinions therefrom.

So, I guess I am just a lousy shot along with Mike... Just saying!

[felix]

There are lots of folks who cannot see like they think they can. Of those that physically can see, most cannot dope the conditions like they think they can. You might say that arena belongs to the physically blind as well, even though it can be an emotional problem, i.e., trigger control. So, I wouldn't discount what Bob is trying to say here, ... felix

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

Are those 5 shot groups with "stock military rifles" going to be with cast bullet loads that are under 1900 fps or HV in the 2300 - 2500+ fps range? We're going with the context of the original article here and the gunzine article in question. I can do either one, but the two articles control.

Are those "stock military rifles" going to me older bolt action true milsurp rifles with issue sights or are they going to be ARs military look alikes in exotic non imilitary cartridges? What part of stock military 8mm Mauser don't you understand?

If those 5 shot less than moa MOA or less was stated groups (assuming 100 yards or longer range) are going to be from an issue original bolt action milsurp rifle with issue sights then I'd sure like to see that. I can bring a few $100 bills also. Larry Gibson

You don't have an invitation.................... I could say more, but i'm not going to.





I leafed through the ,while at the store yesterday and saw the article, but did not buy it. I guess I will have buy it now. Please do and reread the thread noted by BABore in the first post.

While I have not read the article and only know it's content from this thread, I must say that I have read countless posts here, that made me say to myself...."Yeah right!".

I am well over a half century deep into rifle craft and there are folks here that claim results that I feel are well beyond the mechanical ability of the rifle in question. They do things that I have never seen done and I have spent generations hanging around rifle ranges. I suppose you've seen everybody shoot then? Several folks here get together and shoot together. You can ask BABore, 357 Maximum, Dutch4122 and Badgeredd if I can do what I say. They have seen some of that.

The response of these folks is always, I have the secret and you don't, or come and let me show you. I don't have the money or inclination to travel all around the United States having these folks try and demonstrate to me their shooting magic. I am not a true believer in shooting magic.

I have reached the point in my life when I have had sufficient experience to trust in that experience and draw my opinions therefrom.

So, I guess I am just a lousy shot along with Mike... Just saying!

If your gonna jab, you have to expect to be jabbed. Not all people can do the same. I don't play follow the leader like 98% of folks here do. Seems you do.


There are lots of folks who cannot see like they think they can. Of those that physically can see, most cannot dope the conditions like they think they can. You might say that arena belongs to the physically blind as well, even though it can be an emotional problem, i.e., trigger control. So, I wouldn't discount what Bob is trying to say here, ... felix

There is not too much that is new in the world. We have all the old articles and books telling what went on from the early days of rifles till now. The benchresters didn't duplicate the old records from the blackpowder era until somewhere in the fifties. There are quite a few helpfull items from that era that can be used to make iron sighted rifles display what they are capable of. It all depends on just what you know and how you go about things.

[Char-Gar]

No not everybody can do the same. I will freely admit that at 69 my eye sight, muscle tone and trigger control was what it once way. But it once was!

I don't really understand what this following the leader stuff is all about. I was talking about my perceptions and opinions about the mechanical accuracy of a military rifle.

Are all military rifles the same? No
Are all loads the same? No
Are all shooters the same? No

But within all the variables there are some limits to what can be done, even under the best case scenario. That is what I was talking about.

I don't discount what you say. Neither do I discount my own experience or the collective experience of the folks on this board. It all counts toward something.

To be blunt, I don't believe the average Mauser, Springfield of whatever vintage military rifle will deliver consistent, repeatable, on demand MOA performance with any shooter and any ammo. I just don't believe it. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but I don't think so. I didn't think Obama stood a chance of being elected POTUS.

Bobby... I did not mention you in my post and there is no reason for you to be so defensive. I would rather this thread not turn personal. You can do, what you do and you can hold whatever opinion you wish about the subject at hand. I am entitled to my opinions on the same. So, please ratchet down the personal stuff, it is not needed.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

No invitation ........Ya think:cry: Not very sporting, I have a "stock" 8mm Mauser that shoots pretty darn good, even cast and even with my tired old eyes. I might have came home with a few $100 bills...oh well......I was hoping maybe Joe would show up and show us those 2400 fps sub moa groups with his 6.5 Swede........Or you could perhaps have shown us but i guess I won't see them after all........:veryconfu

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Charger

Nope no need to get "personal" at all. Thought if I went and saw them all doit it would be a good way to "bury the hatchet" so to speak. Not to be though as I'm obviously not invited.

I've been shooting milsurp rifles with cast bullets since way back when I also had good eyes and could shoot iron issues sights darn near as good as with a good aperture sight. I've shot many a moa group with milsurp rifles, just not consistently and not on demand as some claim they do. Especially I don't shoot sub moa cast bullet groups out of those milsurps with such sights at high velocity as some also claim. I can get practical accuracy at reasonably HV though. But I guess I'm with you....just can't shoot either.......

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Are all military rifles the same? No
Are all loads the same? No
Are all shooters the same? No
But within all the variables there are some limits to what can be done, even under the best case scenario. That is what I was talking about.

Limits Huh.....under a best case scenario........ Just who determines those. You, Larry, me or somebody else. Most folks here would be speachless if they knew what the rifles they had could actually do when fed correctly.

[45 2.1]

No invitation .....:cry: Not very sporting. Larry Gibson

Just like Ken's so called house here. My house, my rules. I go somewhere I have to play by their rules just like anyone else. Get used to it.................

[waksupi]

Don't start up again.

[Char-Gar]

Larry.. Years ago I took my Springfield 03 with a Lyman 48 sight to the range and produced a great 5 shot group of about 3/4 inch at 100 meters. The group was fired prone with a tight sling. Odd as it may seem, I could shoot better than way, than off a bench rest.

I took the target and showed it to my mentor who was the local gunsmith. He spent many years at Camp Perry shooting in the National Matches before the War. I also made several trips to Camp Perry back in the late 50's. Anyway..he looked at the target and told me to go back and bring him five more like that.

There is lots of talks about super accuracy that folks get from rifles and when I hear it, the words of Worth Palmer ring in my ears. Unless groups can be produced on demand given decent shooting weather, they just don't count in the total scheme of things.

I realize full well that others do not share this point of view. But given this standard, I doubt very seriously that any shooter with any stock vintage military rifle can produce MOA groups. Can a rifle be tuned to improve performance and accuracy? Sure they can..We have tuned many 03s, 03A3 and Garands and accuracy has improved significantly. If you want to go beyond tuning of military parts and start replacing the military platform with high quality commercial parts, yes MOA is possible and I have done it.

So my skepticism is based on claims of regular, predictable on demand accuracy with untuned and unrebuilt vintage military rifle. If folks are jacking with their rifles to get MOA accuracy, then that needs to be stated as a factor. Loading techniques are very important, but they won't turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

Of course there is the possibility that I am talking through my hat and don't know whereof I speak. It is hard for folks to gauge credibility of unknown persons on the "net". But I am very comfortable that what I say will stand the scrutiny of most experienced shooters with these rifles.

I certainly don't want to take away from anybody what they know and have accomplished. I hope if others have different views and experiences, we can agree to disagree in a civil way.

It is my opinion that these types of discussions provide important content and perspective to this board. I don't have any personal issues with anyone on this board and would like to keep things that way. I am concerned that folks who read these threads have all points of view so they get a balanced view of the subject. They can then do things for themselves and decide the issue for themselves.

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Charger. If one is going to make claims outside the norm then they should be prepared to have the claims witnessed and documented. That is not an attack on anyone's credibility nor is it "personal". It is simply the way things are done in most any technical field.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I like Mike's writing style and he provides alot of good info on shooting. He has written that when he loads, say 30-06 it is to fit all his guns, at least mil-surps in that caliber. He stated that all his 303 is full length sized for the same reason.
This does not lead to the best accuracy out of each gun.
There was another article in the same magazine by Mike on intermediate cartridges. Now I understand that a person can not know everything about all aspects of shooting, but do you think the statement that the 6.8SPC is an entirely new case is correct? Or is it actually the 30 Remington that has been modified?
We all do things differently and have different interests and have different expectations. That is why there is such a diverse assortment of guns and processes on this site.
The level of reading comprehension I am sure is different for everyone here. In a class at work we read a statement, then had everyone explain what it was. That was eye opening!

That said, I really enjoy this site and it helps me think thru some of the problems I encounter. If my thinking is short-circuited I can post here and get some great answers.

[Char-Gar]

leadman.. The shrinks like to talk about "filters". We all have filters through which passes all we read, see and experience. No two persons have the same filters, therefore what survives the filters is often not the same. This is what makes communication so difficult at times.

[mroliver77]

Am am not sure as to what all "benchrest technique" encompasses. If'n I was to drag home an 8mm Mauser ( or other milsurp) with a grossly oversize chamber neck and oversize barrel dimensions and it shot 5" moa you can bet your sweet bippy that I would used military 06 brass and find/design a boolit/bullet that fit to my standards. IF this resulted in shrinking the 5" moa groups by half or more ( it almost always does) would it be worth the effort? It would to me.
With the "V" and inverted "V" Mauser sights and my one 50 year old eye I can hit my 350 yard ringer most of the time with a 2"-3" grouping gun. A 5" or 6" grouping gun need not apply.
Most of my 06 guns will shoot a 311284 boolit sized .310" or .311" over 16gr 2400 with an overall length that will fit every gun I own very well. 2-3 moa. For most of my plinking around this is fine. If I want better accuracy or have a gun with issues I will load "custom" ammo for it So in my opinion special attention to some details are more than worth it even with "crude" military sights.
Jay

[Dutch4122]

:goodpost:

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

One other thing that struck me while reading that article and this thread; they're my guns. I'll load for them and experiment with handloads & components for them as I please. In other words, to each his own.