The 444 purpose-built singlshot

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I read the thread where the member was comparing 44 Magnum and 444 ~ working on figuring out which was best for him.

Well, I always liked the 44 designation too ~ I've had the revolvers and compatible lever guns in the same cartridge and then came along the long range singleshot shooting ..

I decided to build a custom singleshot in 444 for this game and began by ordering a 1:16 twist barrel for my old FBW action that had been chambered in 30 Herritt LN for some time. ~ But that is another story.

I chambered the barrel to 444, hung it on the FBW complete with new forend and long range sights. The problem was that NOBODY makes heavy 44 caliber bullet molds ~ and I needed something on the order of 500 grains to use for the intended purpose.

I went to Paul Jones for the bullet and he made up a 500 grain "Creedmore" design, scaled down from his successful 45 caliber design and I was in business for casting the bullets. ~ Pay a Custom price and receive one of the very best molds you will ever use if you ever consider his products.

Then, naturally, there is no data for such heavy bullets in 444. I carefully worked up some loads that have proven successful on out to 1000 yards.

What got me to writing a thread was that last Sunday, practicing for Q2011 I was in a group of like-minded shooters running through a set of long range targets. These are all painted black with white centers out on our hill-top range and fired at from the cross-stick rest.

None of the rifles used really shoot much better than 5x1.500 groups at 100 yards. My 444 will usually stay somewhat under that but the deal is to have verified that the rifle will do it every time: Conditions hot or cool, humid or dry and the rifle clean and cold or red-hot and working maybe a little lead wash on the lee-side of the rifling. This rifle, load and barrel will do that.

On Sunday the conditions were very good. A fellow could keep track of the wind rather easily and dial in corrections as seemed best. I was able to identify the "center" of the condition and, in the most satisfactory way, keep nearly all of my shots in-the-white of the rather large silhouettes. It was a great confidence-builder for the coming long range contests.

By the way, you may note that the 444 at 0.430 is just a few thousands different from exactly 1/2 way between 40 and 45 caliber. ~ I kind of like that.

Anyone who might want to get a start on heavy bullet 444 loads post me a PM.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

Forrest,

PM on it's way.

MJ

[rhbrink]

About time that someone realized the true potential of the .444 round.

[218bee]

I got a 444Marlin and it shoots great....Looking at the case always made me want to try rebarreling my "roller" and trying BlackPowder in that case. Give us an Idea of your loads please...ya smokeless

[Four Fingers of Death]

Fbw? I can't think for the life of me what this means

[Piedmont]

FBW is something like Falling Block Works. It is a long-discontinued, small production rifle and at least superficially is a lot like a Hiwall Winchester single shot. I've not seen one in person.

[FAsmus]

Piedmont has the right of it.

The Falling Block Works action was built in at least three sizes/versions. It was a very simple investment-cast design, in profile looking much like the M95 Winchester "Hi-Wall" ~ but much different inside.

I've used this one in one form or another since 1986 and found it a good functional action. The only problem I ever had is that the mainspring will fatigue and fail now and then.

The last time this happened there were no more Fix Brothers (the manufacturers) around to get another one. I made up a jig and made them myself out of music wire. I made quite a few while I was at it and they are still available though me for anyone with a broken-mainspring-FBW ~ $5.00 + postage.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks, I remember seeing a test of them many years ago.

[NoDakJak]

I bought an action in 1977 and gunsmith Dean Miller installed a Douglas Supreme barrel and chambered it for 225 Winchester. I bought a fancy Myrtle wood blank from Herters and stocked it myself. It shot excellent! The trigger was **** though and I had severe problems with the tiny case rim slipping ahead of the extractor when chambering a round. Was thinking of forming brass from 30.30 and having the chamber and extractor machined for the larger rim when a club member saw it. I sold it to him and he had it rebarreled to 45-70.
Neil

[Buckshot]

..............Quite a number of years ago I built a 444 Marlin on a Greener action. IIRC the wood came from Fajen before good ole Potterfield/Midway bought them and Bishop, and screwd up 2 of the best places in the world to get wood :-(

http://www.fototime.com/57462765332849A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/337FA4D09FA0114/standard.jpg

The barrel came from GPC about the same time and was a Douglas 44 cal with a 16" twist. I think it cost like $40? Don't really remember now.

http://www.fototime.com/82F9C15B4D54EF4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/9841AC5F601E671/standard.jpg

I didn't want a barrel mounted sight like on lever action 30-30's, but somehting I might have a bit more range out of, so I decided to make my own. I had no lathe or milling machine at the time so it was all file and hacksaw work. The side mounting bracket has an ear sticking out just behind the action. This was drilled and polished to take a spigot formed on the end of the rod carrying the SMLE sight ladder.

On the far right is a knob which via turning will move the SMLE sight ladder left or right for windage. A threaded shaft runs from the knob on the right, through the sight ladder and into the left end of the shaft that is fitted into the side plate. As may be seen in the right photo the sight may be rotated down against the wrist. It's retained in the 'Up' or 'Down' position via a spring loaded plunger that runs in a drilled passage it the top of the side plate. The left end is closed with a slotted screw so pressure can be increased or diminished. The right end has the plunger protruding into the 'ear' the windage bar is carried in, and so may rotate.

http://www.fototime.com/C9730B459E8C514/standard.jpg

My only real attempt at heavier then normal slugs in the 444. In this case they were 370gr RCBS slugs intended for the .43 Spanish (.439"). They were paper patched, sprayed with moly, then sent through a .432" ho-made die and loaded over an inverted GC. I forget the charge but it was some ball powder like H335, H322 or some such.

I do recall shooting them at the range :-) At each shot the end of the overhead would just about lift up off the 4" steel pipe and slap back down. All manner of dirt, dust and paint chips would rain down for some time. After a few went downrange I happened to notice the rangemaster standing there to my left. I looked at him and raised an eyebrow in question. He asked,"Ball powder?" I said yup. He said, "I figured" and turned and walked back to his table.[smilie=w:

................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cool bananas! Top looking rifle, well done. The sight looks like a Singer sight off a No4

[Marlin Junky]

I'm gonna resurrect this thread 'cause I'm on the look out for an SS action to do the same thing.

In the meantime however, how does A2400 work in this cartridge with lighter boolits? In this context, a lighter boolit would be in the 350 grain neighborhood. I'm not all that impressed with my 4759 in this cartridge with lighter boolits but maybe I haven't hit on the right alloy hardness yet. I would like to get something that meters better than 4759 for "throwing together" rounds for shorter range "plinking" and varmint control.

Just for the heck of it and the fact I've got a bunch of WC-820, I'm going to try 21 grains of it and a rolled up sheet of 1-ply behind my 345 grain boolit on Friday (in my levergun).

One other thing, if I were to buy a jug of 2400 for this cartridge, I wouldn't want to bother with filler.

Thanks,
MJ

[Jon K]

Hey Don,

Trail Boss...

Jon

[Marlin Junky]

Trail Boss

Thanks for the input Jon, but I wouldn't use anything faster than 4756 with a boolit over 330 grains in my Marlin. The rifling is just too shallow to accelerate a heavier boolit to even Black Powder express type velocities (1400+ fps). I was going to try some Blue Dot on Friday but decided to go with the nearest powder to 2400 that I have on hand.

MJ

[drcook]

This is the first time I saw this thread, I haven't been on this site all that long. I also like the .429 bore. There is a guy local shooting a .444 chambered roller using BP.

Back in the day, there were 2 cartridges, the 42-Wesson and 42-100 Wesson. Both used a .429 bullet. This got me thinking and I created a modern version using readily available 45 2.6 cases.

It is the cartridge on the far left.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/375315190.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

I prefer an '85 High Wall but will consider all actions strong enough to handle SAAMI 444 rounds. A Remington Rolling Block chambered for the 7mm Mauser would be one, I suppose.

MJ

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

In my 444 with the 1:16 barrel, shooting 500 grain bullets from the FBW action it is easy to load to and well beyond tollerable levels of recoil.

If I were to rebarrel it again I'd make it weigh 15 - 16 pounds!

Good morning,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

Forrest,

It's somewhat easier to locate an 18" twist than a 16" twist in that caliber. Have you tried boolits in the 440-450 grain range in the 444?

MJ

[drcook]

Douglas Barrels has a 14 twist as a stock item

http://www.douglasbarrels.net/chamberings/

Both of my 42-90's use Douglas barrels

[Marlin Junky]

Wow, both 14's and 16's... I had no idea.

What are the bore/groove diameters of a Douglas 44 barrel?

MJ

[Four Fingers of Death]

Nowwwwwwwwwwwwwww, an 1886 with a long 44case and a tight twist barrel! That would be nice.

[drcook]

Wow, both 14's and 16's... I had no idea.

What are the bore/groove diameters of a Douglas 44 barrel?

MJ

I don't remember the bore size, IIRC correctly groove is .429 as I use a .4295/.430 dia cast bullet.

I think I remember that I was told the groove depth is .005 so that would make the bore .419. It is either .419 or .421 (if groove depth is .004)

this was the last 200 yard target I shot once I found out the cartridge really likes 1F. The 2 in the top left quadrant are sighters. The 2 at the right were blown off by a storm rolling in.

I shoot with iron sights off sticks.

With a little more load development and trigger time, the rifles (I have 2 chambered with the same reamer and they shoot the same load luckily) will do much better.

for scale, the white dot is 1.5", so right now, the gun is shooting 1.5 moa.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/402785251.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

Good shooting, that's a freezer full of venison!

[drcook]

Actually where I live at, we have to use shotguns and slugs or straight walled chambered pistols. So no Sharps rifles !

When the time and money allows, I will use it to harvest a buffalo. Until then, it will be a target gun ! I have applied to the NRA to get it as an approved cartridge for NRA sanctioned competition, and will also use it in the gong matches.

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

You ask; It's somewhat easier to locate an 18" twist than a 16" twist in that caliber. Have you tried boolits in the 440-450 grain range in the 444?

Me; The lightest bullet I have in 44 is 465 grains. The deal here for me is to shoot the longest, heaviest bullet I can so as to get the best long range performance.

As this rifle is very seldom used at anything closer than 395 yards - on out to 1000 - I'm sure you can understand the need for this.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

I think I remember that I was told the groove depth is .005 so that would make the bore .419. It is either .419 or .421 (if groove depth is .004)

.005" deep grooves would be wonderful, .004" deep grooves, just OK...

.003" deep grooves (like my "deep–cut Ballard–type" Marlin) aren't gonna cut it for me in a custom rifle.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

The deal here for me is to shoot the longest, heaviest bullet I can so as to get the best long range performance. As this rifle is very seldom used at anything closer than 395 yards - on out to 1000 - I'm sure you can understand the need for this.

Good morning,
Forrest

Certainly do... how does your 465 grain missile perform at 1000 yards? I guess I figured the reason for stepping down a notch or two from the .450 bore was to save a bit of lead, powder and recoil so I naturally wondered, why a 500 grainer? Yes, I am aware the 550 grain bullet in 45 caliber was used in 19th century long range target rifles, so I suppose I already know the answer to my question; i.e., 500 grains is lighter than 550 grains. :bigsmyl2:

BTW, I'm curious what ladle you are using to cast those big boolits. I don't think I'd even attempt to cast those projectiles with anything less than a ferrous mold and a Rowell#2. What material are your molds we're discussing made of?

MJ

[drcook]

The bullets I currently shoot are 482 grains, 1.440 long.

[Marlin Junky]

The bullets I currently shoot are 482 grains, 1.440 long.

How 'bout some pics?

MJ

[drcook]

Go back to post 15 of this thread and look at the cartridge on the far left. The bullet is a "Creedmore" design. It is a scaled down Paul Jones Creedmore. The length was maintained but the diameters were reduced.

[Marlin Junky]

Go back to post 15 of this thread and look at the cartridge on the far left. The bullet is a "Creedmore" design. It is a scaled down Paul Jones Creedmore. The length was maintained but the diameters were reduced.

drcook,

I'm not that familiar with the Creedmoor (or Creedmore?) bullet design. Is that front section a bore riding section? What's the length of the bullet beyond the case mouth?

MJ

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

You ask;

I certainly do... how does your 465 grain missile perform at 1000 yards?

I have not fired the 465 grain bullet for many years. It is a David Mos GC design and does work well. I simply changed over to the 500 grain Jones PB bullet and never looked back.

The 1000 yard shooting is done with a 50/90 SS, shooting a 700 grain Jones bullet. This rifle is too light for the job and I'm getting tired of being kicked to death. It is for sale too!

The 500 grain Jones in the 444 works well enough at 1000 for most shooting and I think I'll save myself some recoil and use it at next year's 1000 yard Championship.

MJ: BTW, I'm curious what ladle you are using to cast those big bullets. I don't think I'd even attempt to cast those projectiles with anything less than a ferrous mold and a Rowell#2. What material are your molds we're discussing made of?

F: All tools are iron.

I cast by the Ed Wosika "Pressure-Wave" technique that he shared with the CBA membership some years ago.

This is done by bringing the ladle over the mold as it just begins to pour. Then, at about ½ inch above the mold I direct the flow of alloy toward one side of the sprue hole. This provides a swirl in the alloy, a pressure-wave in the flow, turbulence in the cavity and results in a very consistent fill. I pour until the ladle is empty, regardless of the cavity being "full". Excess alloy flows off, back into the pot. This technique eliminates pretty much ANY possibility of voids forming in the finished bullet.

I cast only in the winter when temperatures run about 20 degrees in my casting shed. I weigh each bullet as it is cast on a electronic scale that I keep alongside the casting pad. This allows me to track bullet weight as it varies with casting cadence and mold temperature.

I have found that this technique results in bullet weights running about 1½ grains heavier than any other method – using the same alloy of course for a valid comparison.

I may cast as long as my personal energy permits holding bullet weight at +/- 0.5 grains for the run. This average weight variation is pretty good for this heavy-weight bullet.

All casting is done with the standard Lyman ladle. I have used the RCBS, which is slightly bigger, but no advantage was seen in the finished product.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

Simply go to the Jones web-site.

He has beautiful picktures of everything he makes.

Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

Forrest,

45013 looks interesting. How do the bore riding spitzer designs perform at long range?

MJ

[drcook]

I see I am a little late to the party, but here is a picture of a "Jones type Creedmore" bullet. A
lot of my moulds have been cut by Steve Brooks.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/404104932.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

Now I've got even more questions about the 444!

Namely, is the case big enough for 800, 900 and 1000 yard matches using black powder?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I was hoping this thread would hang on a bit longer.

Is there a standard bore diameter for "44" caliber? Kreiger uses a bore diameter of .417" which would yield .006" tall lands (.429" groove diameter). Is this too much of a good thing in a long range rifle? Lands that tall sure would come in handy for pushing the velocity envelop with softer alloys.

Forrest,

Where did you acquire the 44 barrel for your long range gun and what are its spec's?

MJ

[semtav]

Like drcook, I had a hunkering for a 429 cal rifle so I had a pitted 40-65 barrel bored out and rifled to 429. and had it chambered based on a 45-90 cartridge. Unfortunately the person doing the rifling did a a horrible job as the grooves are really rough and the barrel leads up something terrible. Thinking about turning it into a paper patch only gun. I had Steve Brooks make me a mould for it.

[FAsmus]

Marlin Juncky;

I have never tried any sprizer-nosed cast bullets in anything since they failed to do well in my initial 30 caliber work long, long ago.

The bore-rider Creedmore designs wrk very well.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

The 0.429 is supposedly the groove diameter in the American "44" designations.

My Montana Rifleman 1:16 barrels measure about 0.4295 in the grooves and only 0.4228 in the bore. As you can see this makes for pretty shallow rifling but I have never had any problem with "grip" or leading because of it.

I shoot my bullets as-cast @ 0.431. The noses carry witness marks when recovered from snow drifts after being fired full-power.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

In initial testing we tried shooting black in the 444 case. No final determination was made about its suitability.

My memory is drifty about things that long ago but it seemed that it was a bit under-powered with straight black.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Buckshot]

Marlin Junky;

In initial testing we tried shooting black in the 444 case. No final determination was made about its suitability.

My memory is drifty about things that long ago but it seemed that it was a bit under-powered with straight black.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest, when you load the .444 Marlin case with black powder are't you supposed to call it the 10.4 x 53? :kidding:

.................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

Forrest, when you load the .444 Marlin case with black powder are't you supposed to call it the 10.4 x 53? :kidding:

.................Buckshot

Or an Elmer Long Express, haha!

[Marlin Junky]

Forrest, when you load the .444 Marlin case with black powder are't you supposed to call it the 10.4 x 53? :kidding:

.................Buckshot

Nah... it's a 42 x 2.22 :bigsmyl2:

MJ

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Actually, when I enter the singleshot matches around here I name my cartridge the 44/63 Ballard in the entry paperwork ~ Which is close enough and has no "real" old-timer counterpart.

Good evening,
Forrest