308 win

[bigted]

i am starting to consider trying to re-create a viet nam era rifle for my entertainment. specifically this...

a model 70 or a 700 bolt gun in 308win cambering. all blacked out with a unertl scope on top that is 24 to 26 inches in length. this will have a heavy barrel and a competition adjustable trigger.

i also want to shoot cast thru it for fun and kicks so am going to gather loads for this rifle before i get it into the works.

any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Ted

[Larry Gibson]

As long as you're building the rifle I suggest a barrel twist not faster than 12" and at least 26" long. That will satisfactorilly handle all bullets, jacketed and cast, up through 210 gr. If you are going to shoot lighter than 175 gr bullets you might think about a 13 or 14" twist barrel. Those twists are more cast bullet friendly if you want to get above 2200 fps with excellent accuracy using standard cast loading techniques. For example; I'm pushing the 160 gr 311466 at 2600 fps out of my 27.5" barreled .308W with 14' twist with consistent 10 shot 1.5 moa out to 300 yards (farthest tested so far). With Sierra 155 Palma bullets it pushes them at 2950 fps with .5 moa which does very well to 1000 yards. If you want to push 175 gr MKs then the best twist is the 12" as it gives the best stabilization to the bullet (yes I have measured the BC of that bullet in 10, 12 and 14" twist barrels and 12" twist is the ticket).

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

I don't know about the Winchester rifles but the Remington varmint rifles have a 1-12" twist.

[Char-Gar]

.308 caliber...high quality 1-12 twist barrel.

[Doc Highwall]

The did use the Remington 700 Varmint with wood stocks and Redfield 3x9x Range finding Accutrack.

[madsenshooter]

Also the model 70 with bull barrel, in both target and sporter stocks. Mostly with the Unertl scope. See chapter 12, of Peter R. Senich's "Complete Book of US Sniping. They were used by both the Army and Marines in the early parts of the war, thanks to work by William Brophy in the latter days of Korea.

[NickSS]

The first bolt action sniper rifles were model 70 winchesters bought through the Navy Exchange and mounted with 8 to 10X Unertal scopes. Most of these rifles were in 30-06. When the marines got around to looking for something better as the Unertal scopes proved to be a bit to delacate they went to a 700 remington which with its round action was easier to bed and more stable in the jungle environment and they went with a 3-9 Redfield scope as it was sealed and stood up better than the Unertal. Today both the army and Marines use an upgraded 700 remington with very much upgraded optics. Unless you have a Unertal scope or know where you can find one cheep be prepared to have your wallet drastically reduced in weight to get one as they sell for $800 and way up.

A few years ago I bought a Remington 700 police sniper rifle and it was really close to what the marines used in viet nam exce[t for the composit stock. You might look at one of them for your basic starting point.

[GabbyM]

I’d bet a nickel FN would build you a replica of Hathcocks model 70.
Same for Remington custom shop and the M40 or M24. I just don’t know how much money they’d want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_rifle

Above is the wiki link to the USMC m40. Not sure what the Army had in Nam but they have used a lot of rem 700 with long actions chambered in 7.62.
I’ve not studied it specifically but I think the bottom metal and five round as opposed to four round sport rifle magazine is the big difference over an off the shelf varmint rifle. Of course the stock and trigger.

Remington was making reproductions of the M40 a few years back. Custom made bottom metal can have a price tag on it to make your spit your soda pop out your nose. The military metal was real plain Jane stuff so you’d think it would be affordable. Right.
Most of the big stock makers could set you up with the stock. Not like you’re asking for anything unique. Wouldn’t surprise me a bit if Remington Custom shop didn’t have some complete M40 and M24's on the shelf. Of course they’d never admit to that. You’d hear oh yes we’ll build one special for you. You can sink a weeks pay into a trigger also.

Remington Custom Shop doesn’t list prices on there web site. They have lots of nice rifles listed. I’m sure they haven’t forgot how to build an M40 or M24. I’d give FN and Rem a call to see what they have. Get a price baseline at least.

When you get on Remington look at http://www.remingtoncustom.com/HunterGrade_7CustomMS.aspx

That’s some real gun porn there and some cast boolit friendly calibers. If I had the money to buy one I’d call them up and ask how much.

A Rem 700 SPS varmint is $570 then you’d need a wood stock for $100 and 20 hours to fit an finish it then the bottom metal and mag. Not sure if the military rifles were cut for stripers or not. All I know is I’ve built a few dozen rifles and the price tag always snowballs on me.
That short cut will only get but a facsimile rather than a reproduction.

[bigted]

tis all very cool...im not looking for an exact replica but a facsimile of a phot i have that my cousen brought back of a kid...[ wernt they all ? ] and his model 70 with the snazzy unertl scope mounted on the action and front on the barrel.

ive got my eye on a tactical rem 308 with a shorter then wanted barrel but its just a bit over 600 dollars. think ill look for a varmint rifle to maybe use as the basic as has been suggested.

still waiting for somebody to step up with some cast loads n boolits for this rifle....please? and a 12 twist you say??... not a 10 twist?...is the same advise given for the 06 with the twist?

[Bullshop]

Bring it down Ted. We can get it shooting boolits for sure. We have a privat 600 yard range to try it at. Better bring your camper and plan on staying a couple days.

[GabbyM]

Definitely want a 12 or 11 twist barrel. Slower if it’s to be a cast boolit only shooter.
You also want the longer that 20 inch barrel. A 308 slash 7.62 can knock your eyeglasses off in a short gun. The best place to place your weight on a rifle is out on the barrel to hold down recoil. You get the side advantage of increased velocity. Forget the stupid tactical swat foolishness. That’s what handguns are for. If you plan to shot over 100 rounds a day from a 308 a muzzle break is nice. They kick like a 243 Win with a break screwed on. Get a screw on break so you can reuse it on the next barrel or another rifle. Breaks are of course not period correct.

The Uneturl scopes with the mount out on the barrel were I believe done with a barrel block? If that’s the correct term for the mount. I’ve never done one. That would be a lug press fit over a straight turn portion of barrel , or bushing, then bedded into the forearm of the stock.

Am writing from way back memory witch is dicey at best. But the mount system for those old scopes is not easy and is why you don’t see them much anymore. If you can do the machine and fitting work yourself you’re OK but if you start a man on the clock you’ll be out big bucks.

You ask about a 30-06. That’s another subject.
With the big case you only get an advantage with big bullets. So that depends upon what you plan to do. If you want to shoot 200 grain J bullets at big animals in Alaska then an 06 is the way to go. But you’ll pay for it in powder and recoil. Twist rate is directly tied to the length of the bullet you intend to shoot. Tika sells 30-06 rifles with a 1-11 twist which I think is correct for the caliber.

[Char-Gar]

The Vietnam era .308 Sniper rifle was just a Remington 700 Varmint rifle with a mil spec finish on the metal and wood. Remington still makes that rifle, but with a black composite stock. It comes with a black matte finish on it. That is what Hathcock used. Some time back I read they had found his rifle, restored it and it is now in some museum.

Get one of those puppy s, drop it into a wood stock shaped like the old ones, put a military finish on the wood, your scope of choice and you are in business.

These rifle come with a cast bullet friendly 1-12 twist barrel. Mine will give consistent 10 shot cast bullet groups of .75 to 1.0 MOA. A higher quality barrel could shrink that a bit, but not enough to justify the cost. At least me me, the original cheapskate.

[bigted]

bit of a question i suppose...i was and am under the impression that the 'Hathcock' gun was an 06 [Winchester i believe] that he counted his 98 confirmed with. i know he was in on the testing and adoption with his advice when the 308 design rem 700 was adopted for the marine corp but the Viet Nam weapons were a mismatch of weapons that drove the armorers crazy trying to keep them in good working order.

also do know that unertl scope blocks are screwed to the barrel and to the action as well with the external adjusting rear ring. dont know or ever heard or seen the sweated ring type mentioned...[not that ive heard of everything tho!].

Bull-shop...thanks for the invitation and i would like to take you up on this invitation as soon as i get it put together. don't know whether ill be able to actually use the unertl scope tho as ive got this 'nite-force' that is such a everything scope that its hard to not want it on just about everything i have.

still no loads tho ???

[Bullshop]

When you get it up and running find a set of target blocks for it. When you come down to play we can set my Unertl 15X programmer on it for the day.
That way you can get the feel of what you were looking for.
A word of caution!!! Don't let my boys talk you into any wagering at the 600 yard line.
I learned that costly lesson, sandbagging little buggers!

[Doc Highwall]

bigted, yes he did use a Winchester pre 64 Model 70 Target rifle in 30/06 and shot M72 Match ammo. They had a Target stock with wider forend and some people call them the Marksman stock. I have shot a few and they are nice. The stock on the Winchester 52C and D are a version of that stock.

[bigted]

thanks doc...was hoping that after i spouted off that i had my facts rite...memory is tricky at times i hear...lol

im not going to spring for a pre 64 but a m-70 or a rem 700 varmint shouldnt be that tough to find in black. i have a m-70 in 338 winny that i bought the hoage stock for with the rubber outer and man i like this stock...my 3 Ruger bolts wear this same stock and its tha shis-nits for me. some don't like it but i really do. they look cool and also are friendly for a longer length of pull needs like mine.

cant remember what the Ruger varmint is like but maybe i should be on the look-out for one of those as well. i know that they used to wear a beaver tail for-end but in that horrible laminate wood that is so hideous...[ nope not a fan]

BULL SHOP.......NAAA GOT OVER TAKING BETS ON THE FIRING LANE LONG AGO WHEN I WAS THE ONE THAT STUFFED MY POCKETS WITH OTHERS CASH WITH MY THEN PRISTINE M-70 IN .270 WINCHESTER..[yep a pre-64]. i know about the young eyes and steady nerves so ...naaa prolly not gonna part with bucks on a foolish bet...lol. sounds like fun tho and i wouldn't mind letting the younger eyes and steady nerves take it thru its paces with us for that young fresh eye for detail and another set of fingers on the trigger.

still no loads yet ? guess im gonna have to start from scratch...maybe god forbid...ill have to do a search for loads...please dont allow me to go thru this anguish...im lazy by nature and would hate to actually have to search thru these hallowed spaces for past load posts....have mercy man!!!

[Multigunner]

The Springfiel 03 and the Enfield had 1:10 twists because both rifles had orinally use Military ball with bullets of over 200 grains. When both went to bulleys of 175 or less the twist was a bit tighter than optimal by the high rate of rotation improved the wounding ability of FMJ bullets.

The 7.82/.308 rifles didn't have to stick to the older twist rates since it was highly unlikely that bullets of over 175 grains would ever be used.

There probably are a few more recent Match and sporting bullets that would benefit from the tighter 1:10 twist, like the 220 grain Boat Tail long range match bullet. Haven't heard anything solid on those being used, and they are probably best suited to the .30 magnum cartridges. A 220 grain bullet would limit powder space in a .308, increasing max deviation, so getting a good reliable load would take some doing.

[Doc Highwall]

The 1-10" was a hold over from the 30-40 with a 220 grain bullet that was also shot in the 03 Springfield for the 30/03 cartridge that most people forget about. In 1906 all of the 03 Springfield's were called back and the chamber was shortened approximately .100" and now we have the 30/06 cartridge which stands for 30 caliber and the year 1906. It was not until the first World War that the Germans started to use a lighter bullet in their machine guns for long distance spray and pray came the development of the boat tail bullets.

The U.S. seeing this as a advantage in being able to shoot flatter and farther followed by making a 154 grain flat base bullet that was later made with a boat tail reducing the weight to 147 grains.

Later when the call came for snipers to have a better bullet the weight was increased to 173 grains and to distinguished it for other ammo was given the designation M-72 Match.

After the introduction of the M-14 chambered for the T44 cartridge later named 7.62x51mm Winchester came out with it calling it the 308 Winchester.

With all the logistics of different calibers of ammo and basically only the snipers using 30/06 - M72 ammo, sniper rifles were now being issued in 7.62 NATO. With the need for accurate rifles and the shortage of target rifles the Remington 700 Varmint rifles with wood stocks were put into service with Redfield 3x9x Accutrack scopes.

This change to 7.62NATO brought about the development of a Match/Sniper round using the same 173 grain bullet used in the 30/06 - M72 ammo, and that had the designation M118 for the 7.62NATO.

Remember at this time the U.S. did not have a sniper designation or a real sniper rifle other then the M-1C and M-1D chambered in 30/06.

Jumping forward in history after Vietnam the military came up with a sniper school with a MOS for snipers, not just a designated company marksman/rifleman. Then came the fight for a rifle other then the M-21 which was a National Match M-14 modified even more. The military wanted a bolt action rifle.

Remington started making the Model 40X in the early to mid 60's and was guaranteeing 1/2" five shot groups or better with wood stocks.

The Remington 40X was chosen as the basis for the sniper rifle for both the Marines and the Army and synthetic stocks had now become dependable.

The Marines used the short action 40X with the standard 308 bolt face and designated their rifle M-40 and the Army used the long action 40X so they could shoot 7.62NATO or change the bolt and barrel to shoot 300 Winchester magnum.

Jumping forward again in history the quest was for a better bullet then the 173 grain match bullet, and the military started to use the Sierra 168 grain Match-King and this was given the designation M852 and was approved for snipers back in the 80's.

With the long distances of the war in the middle east again came the need for a better bullet for the 7.72NATO over the M852 or M118 ammo and Sierra Bullets was tasked with this and they came out with the 175 grain Match-King and this bullet loaded for the 7.62NATO has the designation of M118LR.

The 308Win case capacity for extreme long range shooting has been now extended with this bullet weight and shape and to get more will require a larger case such as the 300Win mag.

The 1-12" twist is more then enough for the 175 grain Match-King to remain stable for beyond 1200 yards as have been proven lately in Afghanistan.

If some body was going to ask what would be the best jacketed bullet to load for the 308Win/7.62NATO I would tell the the 175 grain Sierra Match-King.

There is more to it then I have written here with out turning this into a book and I hope it has helped some of you.

[gew98]

The 1-10" was a hold over from the 30-40 with a 220 grain bullet that was also shot in the 03 Springfield for the 30/03 cartridge that most people forget about. In 1906 all of the 03 Springfield's were called back and the chamber was shortened approximately .100" and now we have the 30/06 cartridge which stands for 30 caliber and the year 1906. It was not until the first World War that the Germans started to use a lighter bullet in their machine guns for long distance spray and pray came the development of the boat tail bullets.

The U.S. seeing this as a advantage in being able to shoot flatter and farther followed by making a 154 grain flat base bullet that was later made with a boat tail reducing the weight to 147 grains.

Later when the call came for snipers to have a better bullet the weight was increased to 173 grains and to distinguished it for other ammo was given the designation M-72 Match.



Doc a wee bit of correction. We all know the original cal 30 1903 was basically the krag bullet in fair copy of the german rimless 7,9 casing. The germans adopted the 154gn Pointed slightly concave base higher velocity flatter shooting 7,92 bullet in 1903.
The US Ordnance eventually caught on to this developement and revised the cal 30 case and bullet and went to the 152 gn flat based pointed bullet in late 1906.
The germans used the S patrone form the beginning in the Maschinengewehr 08 ( adopted in 1908 ). A basic Maxim gun using 250 round cloth belts. It was not until some time after the shooting war started that the germans realized that long range french and british MG fire was superior. Eventually the germans used alot of captured french MG with the Balle D bullet for long range MG fire uses and produced their own 8x50 lebel ammo for it with a slightly better ballistic vesion of thiers of the french bullet. By late 1917 the sS patrone ( schweresSpitzgeschoss )was developed and eventually issued in limited quantities issued to Machinegunners exclusively and initially only to highly specialized Maschinengewehr Scharfschutzen Abtielung as they were the premier german MG troops in training and long range interdiction MG fire. Previous to issue and to the end of the war as the sS was a very limited specialized cartridge most german long range MG fire from MG 08 and 08/15's was withthe older 88 patrone with it's 226 gn bullet. Evidenced by alot of period pics of dead german MG troops wihttheir 08's and 08/15's still having 88 patronen in the belts.
Post WW1 the US Ordnance copied the german copy of the french bullet and designated it as cal.30 M1. All the 1930's M1 cartridges I had were 172gn bopat tailed bullets - good stuff.
But for reasons already mentioned the M1 bullet loading was dropped and the lighter flat based bullet reintroduced as standard as the M2 loading.

[bigted]

thanks doc...im always in for a history lesson and you did good...when you feel like writing more...forge ahead! if nobody wants to read it then put it on my message board here.

[doubs43]

Ted, I have the Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308. It has a 26" heavy barrel. I replaced the factory stock with a B&C A2 Medalist stock, mounted a 20 MOA base and added a Vortex Viper 6.5 ~ 20X scope with target dot reticle.

I realize that my setup is not exactly what you're looking for but as a basis for the rifle you want, the 700 SPS Varmint just may suit your purpose.

The load that I've settled on is the 168 grain Sierra MK bullet and 42.3 grains of H-4895. The longest distance I have to shoot is 350 yards but it's a superbly accurate load to at least that far.

Let me add that at 68 years young, I'm no spring chicken but I still give the younger fellows a run for the prize.

[Multigunner]

A .30-06 Sniper rifle would also be correct for the Vietnam era.

[Multigunner]

bit of a question i suppose...i was and am under the impression that the 'Hathcock' gun was an 06 [Winchester i believe] that he counted his 98 confirmed with. i know he was in on the testing and adoption with his advice when the 308 design rem 700 was adopted for the marine corp but the Viet Nam weapons were a mismatch of weapons that drove the armorers crazy trying to keep them in good working order.




Thats what I figured also.
The 06 soldiered on for generations. Last I looked its still in U S military inventory.

Something that just came to mind.
Didn't the Swiss inventor Colonel Eduard Rubin invent the rimless cartridge case?
I've never heard of any of the European rimless cases being said to have been a German invention.

[Vulch]

I started to type before could you please explain a single US military issue or reserve issue firearm in 30-06? (I deleted it as I was not sure of my facts) I believe even MOST of the match M1 Garands are now 7.62, if not all, and I don't think any M1919's are still in inventory either. Maybe some Winchester Mod 70 snipers are still extant????

[Doc Highwall]

I believe that 30/06 M72 was stopped being manufactured in the late 80's or early 90's.

[Vulch]

Yes, as far as I can determine, the US stopped manufacture for military use in the 1960's, apart from M72 match ammunition, which has ceased some time back.

What firearms in US military service - regular or reserve - would now use 30-06???

[Multigunner]

MIL-P-3984J
AMENDMENT 3
12 June 2000
SUPERSEDING
AMENDMENT 2
30 July 1998
MILITARY SPECIFICATION
PROPELLANTS FOR SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION

Pages 7-9

M2 Ball and M25 Tracers are still on the list as of 2000.

What they use them for you'd have to look that up.

The above document is available at Everyspec.com.

The Ammunition manuals from the late 90's also list the full range of .30-06 military and matchgrade ammo.

[Vulch]

Sam,

The document you cite also lists 45 ACP - again, an obsolete calibre in US military service unless M1911A1's are still being issued?

[Multigunner]

The standard rifle of the Sirius Patrol is the commercial Winchester Model 70 which chambers the US 30-06 Springfield.[2] This non-NATO round was chosen because of its popularity among Inuit hunters in Greenland. The rifle itself, known in Danish service as the Gevær M/53, was chosen for its very reliable bolt- action – like the old Lee-Enfield used by the Canadian Rangers.


From the Canadian rangers website.

The old .45 ACP shows up now and then when least expected , just as the Model 70 in .30-06 soldiers on in the Arctic.
The U S Military ran a competition for a .45 ACP close combat pistol, an HK product won, I'm not musch interested in modern handguns so I haven't taken notice of whether these are in service or not.
The Manuals also list a commercial grade 9mm cartridge for use in M3 Greaseguns converted to 9mm that aren't rated for the NATO Stanag 9mm. I've heard the greasegun can occasionally be found as a crewmans PDW in some older AFVs but that could be scuttlebutt.

There was a documentary some years back about a U S Military storage facilty that kept a huge number of NOS weaponry for some reason. They pulled a few out of trays and unwrapped them, I remember the M3 among them.
The Seals and others who might be called on to pull off deep penetration missions sometimes carry weaponry not now in general service as well as old Soviet style weaponry. Deniabilty.

Only speculation but among our allies are smaller nations who can't afford to discard older machineguns due to incompatability with NATO ammunition.

I remember reading of a situation in South America ( late 70's or 80's maybe)where local government troops were very short on 7.62 Nato for the M-60s they had been given. There were huge stocks of .30-06 still in storage. When they looked through an old warehouse to break out some of the 1919 Brownings stored there they found .30-06 Madsen Machineguns that had been there since before WW2 and never taken out of their crates till then. You never can tell what any military organization may have squirreled away.

If they still had intentions of obtaining fresh .30-06 ammo in 2000, its likely still in stock somewhere.

PS


Corps considers 2 guns for new MARSOC .45




By Dan Lamothe - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Jan 25, 2011 5:15:44 EST



LAS VEGAS — The competition to provide Marine special operators with new .45-caliber semiautomatic pistols is beginning to take shape, with at least three companies submitting samples to the Marine Corps and others bowing out.

Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., and Springfield Armory of Geneseo, Ill., sent samples of their latest 1911 pistols to acquisition officers this fall, company officials said Jan. 18 during the Shooting, Hunting, Outdoor Trade Show and Conference, known as SHOT Show, in Las Vegas. The Corps is expected to seek proposals from the defense industry soon.

The M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistol is modeled after earlier versions of the semi-automatic 1911 pistol used since the 1980s by Force Reconnaissance units. The Corps could buy between 400 and 12,000 as part of a contract worth up to $22.5 million, according to Marine Corps Systems Command.

Well how about that, not so obsolete afterall.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/marine-marsoc-pistol-45cal-012511w/

[lonewelder]

I may be wrong,but I think HK's in 45 are used in special units.I would never call 45acp obsolete,old yes .

[Multigunner]

I may be wrong,but I think HK's in 45 are used in special units.I would never call 45acp obsolete,old yes .

Thats a fact. Its been a long time since I carried a 1911, a Remington Rand, I still have my 1918 marked flap holster in pretty darn good condition aside from a rivet having corroded away. Not a loose stitch on it.
I'll have to get another 1911 one day just to make proper use of the holster if nothing else.

[lonewelder]

They just plain work.45, o6 they just plain work

[Multigunner]

From this article in Stars and Stripes there may have been and could be at least a few M3 Grease Guns still floating around at least up to 2008.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56565



Throughout the Army, the M-4 is replacing the M-16, the M-3 submachine gun and the M-9 pistol in select cases for unit leaders, crew-served gunners, vehicle crews, radio operators, infantry and combat engineers, a PEO Soldier spokeswoman said.

I seem to remember the continued availabilty of the M3 was because some armored vehicles had a rack for it and the M4 wouldn't fit in the rack.

The suppressed version of the M3 would be a mighty good way to break up somebodies tea party.

[gew98]

When I went from RA to ARNG there were multitudes of 45 pistols and M3's... until they forced the guard to take the M9 ***. The M3's were then still issued to 19D's and 63T's in the guard until the issue of the M9. The military would sooner change out racks in vehicles than issue an obsolete arm as they want it all the same and everyone about has been saddled with the M4 thing. The US Navy currently stores tens of thousands of 1911 pistols in drums at two of their depots. The 1911A1 type MUESOC pistol has been around for some years , and is still issued out.
There are trials presently for a pistol to replace the M9 debacle... FN is one of the top contenders and may have the edge.... and all pistols submitted are 45 caliber.
The US Army at one time circulated lists of available small arms ammunition by types in storage for requisition. Back in the early 90's the last one I read there were hundreds of thousands of rounds of cal 30 ball in 8 rd clips and belted in inventory. No doubt all long since gone to the DCM.
As well back in th emid 90's I recall all the 22 rifles and 03A4's & M1D's in the state National guard supply that were returned to the government as obsolete . The government I understood was of the mind to scrap them ...maybe they made it to the DCM..I dunno I just know the states had to turn them in as they were no longer on the ARNG TO&E and had to go.We did'nt miss them as we never used them.

[bigted]

i unashamedly own a perfect specimen US Springfield 45acp...also have an old sp-1 ar15 with the original triangle covered 12 twist barrel and a newer m-4 style upper for it as well as a 20 inch bull-barrel flat-top varmint upper...i wouldn't sell or trade these for anything as they just work for the purpose they were intended for.

the 45 is always with me for 4 and 2 legged critters that want a piece of good ol me. just looking into the yawning end of this pistol is all the 2 legged critters want and the 230gr life takers are what the dr ordered for the 4 legged type in close quarters...like up next to my pickup or breathing stinky breath into my face.

this 308 endeavor is like the for-mentioned weapons...for my edification and enjoyment. i may settle for an 06 with a heavy barrel if i could find one with the heavy barrel i want and affordable too.

thanks for the loads doubs43...this is the stuff im looking for as well.

thanks all for the interest and information...very informative and enjoyable reading...keep em coming...please.

[Multigunner]

I traded my Remington Rand to an old friend of the family who wanted it because it was just like the ones he carried in WW2 and Korea, I figured he deserved it.

I'd planned to buy a new Colt, but never again found one that gave me the same feel in the hand as that old Remington Rand and the Colts were having issues at the time anyway.

A friend had brought over his more recent model with the collet muzzle bushing telling me it was such an advance over the old style, then a few weeks later he brought it over to see if I could get the slide off after the collet lost a leg and jammed it tight.
He had to send it back to the factory, and they couldn't get the pistol apart either so they cut the slide apart and sent it back with new slaide and other parts.
He got a replacement bushing that was like the old style after that.

One thing about the 1911, its as reliable as it gets, and if anything can go wrong you'll probably know before it happens.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The Remington Police is a 308, 26" 1-12 twist Bbl with a matte black finish and a black/grey H&S stock. Pretty welll good to go as is. If you decided to get a wood stock, you wouldn't have any trouble getting rid of the H&S stock. From my memory of the book, he used a Win, but the Remingtons were out there during the Vietnam war.

[NHlever]

The Kittery Trading Post had one of the Remington reproduction Vietnam sniper rifles a while ago, but it is probably sold by now. Remington barreled action modified 40x wood stock, and Redfield scope. I was in Vietnam fairly early and was just starting to see the Remingtons in my area. I pulled guard with a Marine sniper that had a Winchester .300 Mag that he was very, very good with. Once he had eliminated the problem we were having with VC observers taking readings on our towers during the day we had some very good fun with a flock of chickens in the tree line about 225 meters away. The trick was to make them disappear just as the farmer's grain touched the ground in front of them. Very confusing for the farmer for a while since the sound of the shot was mixed in with all the artillary fire, etc. going on at the same time on the firebase.

[Char-Gar]

I carried a Remington-Rand 1911A1 many miles in my salad days. About 2005 I bought a new Colt Govt. Model. I installed an arched mainspring housing and a short steel trigger. It feels very much like the old pistol, but is tighter, more accurate and has far better sights. It is a good pistol all around. I caught a dealer in a bind and paid $650 for it out the door.

[Hawken]

Sam,

The document you cite also lists 45 ACP - again, an obsolete calibre in US military service unless M1911A1's are still being issued?

SPECOP guys are still issued 1911's, at their option.