WCC-860 dirty & slow but it shoots

[singleshotbuff]

Gentlemen,

Here are the results of my first tests with WCC-860 ("virgin" surplus from pat's reloading) using Jword bullets in the 8X57mm.

Test gun is a Yugo M48 Mauser in original configuration.

First load;

Winchester WLR STANDARD primer
48.0grs WCC-860
Remington 185gr SP bullet
Crimped using Lee factory crimp die

Average velocity: 1427 f.p.s.
Extreme spread: 48
Standard deviation: 15.9

Second Load;

Same as above, except used Federal 215 MAGNUM primers

Average velocity: 1441 f.p.s.
Extreme spread: 18
Standard deviation: 5.7

Both loads left approximately 2 grains (weight) of unburned powder in the cases and the bore had unburned powder in it from breach to muzzle. I dry patched the barrel between groups.

Load number 2 gave me a nice 5 shot group of under 1" at 50 yards, along with improved e.s & s.d. If I can get this load to shoot faster and cleaner I'll love it LOL.

My next round of tests (hopefully tomorrow) will feature load #2 duplexed with IMR or H4198.

I'll report results here, as well as add them to my gunloads webspace.

SSB

[Junior1942]

In my Handi-Rifle 45-70 using WC-860 and the Lee 500-3R, it 99% quit leaving debris when I loaded enough 860 for slight compression. Below compression, it left lots of unburned powder in the barrel and a little in the case.

[smokemjoe]

:confused: I have a friend that puts 3-4 grains of corn meal on top of the powder and works better. Joe

[swheeler]

SSB; 57 grs and a mag primer gave 1800 fps + with the 185 CL, still trash in the barrel but ES were single digit, accurate load just slow

[carpetman]

Cornbread is square so if you use corn meal for filler will you shoot square holes? Maybe group buy in order for square meplat?

[JCherry]

singleshotbuff

A load I've had pretty good luck with in an 8mm Persian Mauser (29" barrel) is 54 gr of WC860 and a Win mag LR primer under a 250 gr 8mm Max oven tempered WW bullet for 1973 fps, SD-9.6 ES-36, no trash left in barrel.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

In my Handi-Rifle 45-70 using WC-860 and the Lee 500-3R, it 99% quit leaving debris when I loaded enough 860 for slight compression. Below compression, it left lots of unburned powder in the barrel and a little in the case.

Junior,

Any idea on how fast you're pushing that boolit? I'm just curious.

[Junior1942]

About 1150 fps.

[TCLouis]

I wonder if the 175 grain boolit from the recent GB is heavy enough to get 860 to burn.

[Ricochet]

Don't know about that, but I suppose I could try. It sure does burn 7383 well!

[singleshotbuff]

JCherry,

I have some 250gr max boolits on the way. I'll try your load.

I also loaded some 185gr Jword bullets with 48grs of 860 and 3grs of IMR-4198 for a kicker, but I haven't gotten a chance to chronograph them yet. Hope to tomorrow.

SSB

[singleshotbuff]

Gentlemen,

I shot my next test load, a duple load, over the chronograph yesterday. The load was;

Winchester case
Federal 215 Mag primer
3.0grs of IMR-4198
48.0grs of WCC-860
Remington 185 SP

Average velocity: 1740 f.p.s.
E.S.: 54
S.D.: 17.7

So the 4198 gave me about 300 f.p.s. more velocity, buy SD & ES went to crap. There was much less unburned powder in the case, but the bore was still dirty to the muzzle. I didn't get to shoot for groups because the rain started just as I finished running rounds over the chronograph. I'll try to shoot some groups Sunday, if the rain ever stops, and I'm going to keep upping the charge to try and clean up the trash. Pressure seem extremely low as primers are very rounded. I also plan to try some 200gr bullets and some 225gr lead boolits.

I'll keep you guys updated.

SSB

[David R]

I use 860 in my 308 behind the 311644 190 grain boolit. Lots of junk in the barrel, but accuracy is great.

Last week I tried some 4198 along with the 860. Here ya go

Original load,
308, 190 grain 311644 with LAR45's lube
46 Grains of WC 860, Standard WW LR primer, AV 1600
Groups were about 1" at 100 yards, and 6" X 8" at 300 but the barrel would fill up with junk.

43.5 grains 860 with 3 grains of 4198 Kicker.
AV 1886 ES 58, SD 19.
Still 1" at 100 and 5" at 300.

I tried 4 grains and 5 grains 4198.
5 gave me AV of 1975, but groups opened up to unaccaptable.
I also saw pressure signs. NOT high pressure signs, but finally corners of the primer weren't rounded like they came out of the box.

For group size and Velocity, I settled on the 3 grain kicker and proceded to load 300 more.

I was going for as close as I could get to my guns 2,000 fps accuracy limit, but it seems the higher pressure threw off the accuracy. Maybe 4831 would be a better powder, but I am to cheap to use canister powder.

David

[David R]

I used it in my 22-250. A full case behind a 60 grain boolit gave great accuracy, but totally unaccabtable dirt and junk in the barrel. In that gun, I am sticking with 18 grains of SR4759.

A full case of 860 in my enfield ('06) gave 2200 fps, but accuracy was unaccaptable.

46.5 grains of powder in the 308 and a 190 grain boolit delivers all the "Kick" I need for recreational shooting.

Compressed charges in the 308 were not as accurate as filling the case to the base of the boolit.

I am on my second 8lb jug since early last year.

David

[alamogunr]

In another thread a poster mentioned buying both 7383 and WC-860. Both are described as .50 cal. powders. On various sites for surplus powders I see the above two in addition to WC-868 and IMR 5010. All these are mentioned as large cal. powders, and therefore slow burning. I realize that some are extruded powder and some are ball powder. What guidelines should be used in choosing one over another?

[wiljen]

In another thread a poster mentioned buying both 7383 and WC-860. Both are described as .50 cal. powders. On various sites for surplus powders I see the above two in addition to WC-868 and IMR 5010. All these are mentioned as large cal. powders, and therefore slow burning. I realize that some are extruded powder and some are ball powder. What guidelines should be used in choosing one over another?

That poster would have been me as I just bought 16lbs of each.

My reasons for buying these two were as follows.

7383 is from 50 spotter rounds and is not in the same class as the others. It excels in bottleneck cases of approximately 60gr or less. I am going to use it in the 308/22-250/30-06 (with lighter bullets 150-165) etc. Everything I have read and learned says that as case size increases above 60gr or as the bottleneck of the case decreases toward straight walls the utility of this powder decreases.

wc860 is going to be used in 30-06/308/8mm Rem Mag with heavy for caliber bullets and in the 45/70 with a duplexed load with 4198 or 4227 as the kicker charge. It performs well in this role where 7383 does not.

wc872 is close enough to wc860 that my comments for 860 apply to it as well

5010 is a stick powder and meters very poorly from my past experience so I settled on wc860 for purposes of ease of use.

[felix]

In another thread a poster mentioned buying both 7383 and WC-860. Both are described as .50 cal. powders. On various sites for surplus powders I see the above two in addition to WC-868 and IMR 5010. All these are mentioned as large cal. powders, and therefore slow burning. I realize that some are extruded powder and some are ball powder. What guidelines should be used in choosing one over another? ... alamogunr

You have to be careful here. There were/are three different kinds of 50 BMG rounds: hot load, normal load, reduced load. Hot loaded cartridges use 750 grain bullets at 3200 fps for aircraft machine guns. As far as I know, there are no current powders on the market for these rounds, so that can be forgotten about. All the other powders, except 7383, are for normal rounds, shooting 650-750 grain bullets at 2700 fps or thereabouts. These powders are the slow burning powders we typically are interested in. Now, the reduced load round is not for machine guns, but for a funky gun on top of a cannon to shoot a round that closely follows the trajectory of the cannon round. This powder is designed like 4759 and for the same purpose for generating reduced velocity in a large capacity case. These powders have lots of airspace within the granules. 5010, also a single base powder, has a different shape for the most part but is considerably more dense than either 4759 or 7383 to get the energy up to make the normal 50 BMG velocity. All the other powders for the 50 BMG are double based ball. ... felix

[Ricochet]

The .50 spotter cartridge was the only application 7383 was ever used for originally. It's a cut down version of the .50 BMG, much shorter. Looks sort of like a 7.62x39 next to a .30-06. First version of that cartridge was loaded with 4831. Then they replaced it with 7383 at a lower charge with the same ballistics. I don't have the data in front of me, but it was something like a 750 grain bullet at 1850 FPS and 38K PSI. The charge weight ratio for 7383 and 4831 was in the range you'd expect in medium size cases like our milsurps for 4350 and 4831. I think the powder's optimized for burning in that lower pressure range and pressures rise rapidly when loaded to higher pressures. It's bulkier than most other IMR powders, so only about 7/8 as much can be fitted into a case capacity load. With medium weight bullets in milsurp calibers, usually the right charge ends up being as much as will fit in without compressing it much. It's a lot faster burning than WC860. Pretty similar to 4350 where the maximum load of 7383 that'll fit is in the starting load range of 4350, but I and others have found situations where with heavier bullets, larger cases and heavily compressed charges, pressures and velocities rise rapidly.

I do use it as a reduced load powder in my .300 Weatherby, with 4.3cc of it (something like 53 grains) and a magnum primer under a 200 grain HBC boolit giving about 2000 FPS with mild pressures. Haven't yet blown myself up with an SEE, but I can't prove it'll never happen.

I tried a full load of it under a 340 grain boolit in .45-70. Bad idea. Gave about 1200 FPS, and locked up my Marlin's action with barely burned powder tubes. It was a hassle to clean out.

[Ricochet]

Oh yeah, though I scoffed a few years back at the need for magnum primers with an IMR powder in midsized cases, I have started using them with 7383 in my cast boolit loads and found they're more consistent. I did find a few years back that magnum primers LOWERED my velocity and greatly increased extreme spread and group sizes with compressed 7383 loads under jacketed bullets in .22-250. I've quite trying to pack those things full approaching "normal" .22-250 velocities with this powder. It's not going to happen, and it shoots better if you just get it full. Best it'll do is 3400 FPS with a 55 grain, and 3300 with a 60 grain, in a 26 inch barrel. Shoots pretty well with that.

[David R]

You guys are telling me 7383 is much faster than 860? More like 4831? Works well at lower pressures? (30K or so?)

David

[JohnH]

You guys are telling me 7383 is much faster than 860? More like 4831? Works well at lower pressures? (30K or so?)

David

More like 4350. In my 375 JDJ (Think 375x57 with a rim) with Lymans 375449, 42 grains (right at the bullet base) gave me a dead even 1600 fps. In my 25-06, 47 grains with the Speer 120 SP gives me 2900 fps :o (Speer says 48.5 grains of 4350 for 2990) This load is at the neck/shoulder juncture and is on the ragged edge of an overload (read not to be fired above 50 degrees F) My next work with it is to try it with 87 grainers. It is a good powder, but devilish to work with. There were quite a few reports of burst guns with the stuff. 50,000 psi+ is well above it's design operating pressure and it's sensitive there.

I've yet to see super accuracy with it, but it shoots minute of beer can all day in everything I've tried it in. Strangely, it was used in a trainer load for the 50 cal. spotter used on the 106mm recoilless rifle, a tripod mounted tank killer. I'm not even sure that the arm is still in use.

[Ricochet]

The only report of a burst gun with 7383 that I've seen was one that got reposted all over the place a few years ago. Somebody with a .25/300 Weatherby Magnum that thought it was a slow .50 caliber powder and loaded a lot of it, as I recall. He was squawking about it being an exceedingly dangerous powder that everyone should avoid, but it sounded to me like he'd really done something stupid. It'll turn up if you search for 7383 on the Accurate Reloading forum. You can read the reports and decide for yourself.

Yeah, I'd consider pressures in the 30s are probably optimal for it, as it was rated around 38K PSI in the .50 spotter cartridge. One thing that's unusual about it is that the powder is black throughout the grains. It's had carbon black added to it. I think they did that so the surface of the grains would absorb radiant heat from the incandescent gas, helping it to burn more readily at lower pressures. Usual IMR type powders are translucent and yellowish (sometimes greenish) after the coating is burned off. Infrared and light rays would penetrate deeply or pass through.