Small Primer 45 brass

[Roundnoser]

Has anyone had the distinct JOY :mad: of running small primer 45 brass through a progressive press yet? I did it the other day on my 1050.

I purchased (what I thought) was a good deal on shiny 45 brass. I failed to inspect it, cause it aleady looked great. Before long, I was crushing my Lg pistol primers, jamming up the machine, AND (my favorite part), the priming compound and the anvils from the crushed large primer cups clogged up the primer feed channel. I had to disassemble the machine down to the base, clean it, troubleshoot the problem, lubricate and re-assemble. What a pain! -- FYI, the brass was CCI BLAZER. (not all Blazer is sm primer, just the batch I had).

And the ADDED BONUS: I now have to hand-sort through a bucket of 45 brass to remove all of the bad brass.

Anyone know...What is the deal with the Sm primer 45 brass? Are they still making it? Companies execs making this stuff aught to be strung up by their toe nails! SOBs!

[Doby45]

I have ran into that when I do a good bit of range pick ups. I had a good amount from when I went to the range on my last trip so I was running them through some citric acid and as I was swishing them around I saw what looked like a tiny primer, well sure enough, IT WAS. So I had to head inspect each one of the pieces I was cleaning.

[sargenv]

They still make it and some competition shooters I know look for it so they can use small pistol primers in all of the brass they reload.. saves having to stock two primer sizes..

[Finster101]

I'll buy it if you want to sell it reasonable.

[starreloader]

I picked up a 5 gallon bucket full of the 45 ACP Small Primer brass along with other brass from a PD last Thursday.... This small primer 45 ACP brass probably isn't going away... What I see the most of is Speer/CCI and Federal.... Speer/CCI does not have the primer crimped in.. The 45 ACP Federal 'NT' is crimped in, just one more thing we have to get around.... When I get this brass cleaned, deprimed and the the crimp on the Federal brass removed I will put it up for sale on here... Don't know about Speer, but the Federal small primed brass is a lead free primer...

[thehouseproduct]

I just bought a couple hundred rounds of cheap federal at Walmart and noticed this too. My reading indicates that some non toxic ammo used small primers as well. I'm guessing walmart does this with Federal to save the factions of a penny on the millions of rounds they buy.

[Roundnoser]

Just my 2 cents here: I really don't care if its small primer or large primer...the industry should make up its mind, and go with one or the other! Sorting for primer size really slows things up, and if you miss one.....well, we already know what a PITA that is!

[30calflash]

I just bought a couple hundred rounds of cheap federal at Walmart and noticed this too. My reading indicates that some non toxic ammo used small primers as well. I'm guessing walmart does this with Federal to save the factions of a penny on the millions of rounds they buy.



I believe the non-toxic primer is the reason. I've run into it myself. I'm separating it and plan to use in a revolver.
The guys that collect and clean/separate this brass aren't going to start looking at primer pockets IMHO.

[ReloaderFred]

The small pistol primers in .45 acp are the result of the demands for Non-Toxic (NT) primers. I was told by a rep from Federal at the last SHOT Show that it won't be long before all ammunition will be loaded at the factory with NT primers.

The priming compound in NT primers has a faster brisance (velocity) than lead styphnate priming compound. This caused several problems, but first you have to understand what goes on when a round is fired. When the priming compound explodes (and yes, it is an explosive) the primer backs out of the case. When the powder is ignited and burns, it creates the pressure to drive the bullet down the barrel, and that pressure also drives the case back against the bolt or recoil shield, depending on the type of firearm. This reseats the primer into the primer pocket.

The Dynol compound used in NT primers was creating so much pressure that the primers would deform before the case could be driven back to reseat the primer. They first tried crimping the primers in, with limited success. Then they opened up the flash holes, and that helps quite a bit. Then they decided to try small pistol primers and found that they work just fine, but it wasn't a new idea. It has been done with certain brands of European .45 acp for years. I first ran across some of that brass back in the 1960's.

In my testing, I've found no difference in point of aim with the small pistol primed brass with several different loads in .45 acp. Some people have found about a 50 fps velocity difference, and some haven't. It depends on the load. Some people are also finding they get better accuracy with the small pistol primed .45 acp brass.

I don't know where some of these stories about saving money with this "new" primer come from, since there isn't any savings involved. It's also not some big conspiracy against handloaders, either. The ammunition companies don't manufacture their ammunition for handloaders, or in most cases even care if the brass is reloaded. All they care about is that it goes off for the original purchaser, whether it's an individual, LE agency or the military.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[klcarroll]

I'm right there with Finster!! ........I'll buy it if the price is reasonable!

Kent

[Ziptar]

I've been sorting through a bunch of range brass I picked up at the club last week.

I've been seperating the small primers from the large figuring when the time comes to sell or trade them some might not want the smalls. I don't reload 45 ACP currently.

More common than I'd imagined. Thus far, it averaging 1 small to 4 large.

ReloaderFred, I hope the Rep didn't really mean all calibers.. small primer 45 Colt would just be WRONG!!

[ReloaderFred]

Ziptar,

The rep wasn't referring to the size of the primers, only the priming compound. They do make NT primers in large sizes, too, but the .45 acp never really needed a Large Pistol primer to start with. You're only igniting 5 to 8 or so grains of powder in a small volume case. The .45 Colt qualifies as a large volume pistol cartridge and I would think it would be difficult to get a good burn with a small pistol primer.

They are under a lot of pressure to convert all calibers to NT priming. From a business perspective, it would be much easier for them to only have to produce one type of priming compound, so it's most likely going to have to be NT.

The push for NT priming is due to the use of indoor ranges, some of which don't have adequate ventilation. That's where the lead contamination is coming from. Those who shoot a lot on indoor ranges, and the employees/volunteers, are testing for high lead levels in their blood from ingesting the compounds from lead styphnate primers.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[shotman]

fred is right about indoor ranges . Most that I have been in dont let you shoot anything execpt their ammo . and its all non tox. it also puts a big problem in that only certian cal can be used . I walked out of last 2.

[ReloaderFred]

When Clint Smith moved his Thunder Ranch school to Lakeview, OR, he decided that only NT ammunition would be fired on his property. I'm guessing that since they do so much shooting in his "shoot house", and it's hard to properly ventilate a building with several rooms in it, this was a major factor in his decision to use only "green ammo" on his property.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[scrapcan]

I too would like a hundred or two small primer 45 acp cases to turn into 400 corbon to see if there is a difference in that chambering. If someone has some to pass along let me know.

[LUBEDUDE]

Roundnoser - that really sucks that you had to shut down and spend all of that time cleaning up.
Unfortunately, I believe those pesky small primer cases are here to stay and we will now have inspect each case.

[Ziptar]

Ziptar,

The rep wasn't referring to the size of the primers, only the priming compound.

Hope this helps.

Fred

It helped allot, Thanks.

[Alvarez Kelly]

I too would like a hundred or two small primer 45 acp cases to turn into 400 corbon to see if there is a difference in that chambering. If someone has some to pass along let me know.

I have exactly 113 "once fired" 45 ACP Federal NT cases with small primers. Make a donation to bdbullets, see thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=118276

...once obssd1958 tells me he got it, I'll mail them to you on my dime.

[ReloaderFred]

manleyjt,

Starline has been making their .400 Cor-Bon brass with small pistol/rifle primer pockets for several years now. In fact, since December, 2000. I use small rifle primers in mine, since the cup is a little thicker/harder, but most of my .400 Cor-Bon brass is Winchester .45 acp brass necked down.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[donaldjr1969]

I have close to a couple hundred 45acp cases with a 60/40 ratio of large to small primers. The small primered cases, as mentioned above, seem to be used in Alliant TechSystems branded ammo such as Speer, CCI, and Federal. But with regards to the Federal cases, I do have a question. Being that I have never came across any brass that I know was fired from NT rounds, are there any markings on the headstamp that would indicate it to be a NT round?

Also, do ALL Federal offerings come with small primers or is it mostly with their American Eagle loads? I was just curious if their personal defense, Gold Medal match, etc offerings also use them as well.

For me, I guess it will be somewhat more of a chore to sort them after tumbling. And I will also have to change out the feed thingy on my RCBS hand primer to use the small primers. But I guess it will not be too bad. As long as powder ignition is good and consistent, I do not see how the small primered cases would make for worse reloads than the large primered cases.

[ReloaderFred]

Most of the Non-Toxic ammunition I've seen has been marked "NT". I've got brass from several manufacturers with NT markings on them, but I don't sort them out. They're the same brass, with a different headstamp.

I haven't bought factory ammunition in about 10 years, so I don't know what primer Federal is currently loading in the majority of their .45 ammunition. I should probably pay more attention, but it just hasn't been that important to me. In handguns, brass is brass, and as long as I can load it, that's about all I care about. The only brass I don't reload is A-Merc and Berdan primed brass. And steel casings aren't brass, so I don't load them.......

Hope this helps.

Fred

[littlejack]

I have a box or two, once fired small primer 45acp. I will swap anyone for two of there 452374 boolits, or equal rn for one of my brass. We each pay our own shipping. PM me if interested.
Jack

[Roundnoser]

Roundnoser - that really sucks that you had to shut down and spend all of that time cleaning up.
Unfortunately, I believe those pesky small primer cases are here to stay and we will now have inspect each case.

Just add another step to the process!

[donaldjr1969]

Most of the Non-Toxic ammunition I've seen has been marked "NT". I've got brass from several manufacturers with NT markings on them, but I don't sort them out. They're the same brass, with a different headstamp.

Hope this helps.

Fred
It helps a lot, Fred. Thanks! :)

I asked because earlier in the thread, you were mentioning about crimped primers on NT load casings. If they still crimped the primers for NT loads, at least I could identify a crimped primer case and discard it before it even made it to the tumbler.

But if crimping is no longer used for NT loads, then I guess that is all a moot point...

[lead-1]

I am accumulating quite a bit of Blazer brass that is small primer. I toss it in a seperate bin and will reload it when I get a couple hundred.

[ReloaderFred]

The whole Non-Toxic issue has been going on for several years and has been an ongoing process. The companies test a new theory in their test firearms and when they think they've got it worked out, they release that iteration to the public. Then it's fired in many, many different firearms and they get reports back of problems, so they try something else, and then go through the process again.

Some of that transition ammunition is still out there and will continue to be used until it's gone, so you may find some of it. Heck, I've got sealed ammunition boxes from 1918 in my shop. You have to consider that just because a company changes what they are producing, there is still a lot of that product in the chain that will continue to show up, possibly over a long period of time.

I don't know for sure if Federal, Speer and Winchester are still producing the .45 acp brass with the enlarged flash holes or not, but I still pick it up at the range. I have no idea what the vintage of the brass is when I get it, and don't really care. I just polish and reload it, then repeat as necessary, since I've found no difference in my groups. I'm a pretty fair shot and I would be able to tell if there was a change, but I haven't seen it.

I don't separate my pistol brass by brand, unless I'm loading something for 50 yards and beyond. Closer than that and it won't make a measurable difference on paper. Back when I was shooting a lot of PPC, I would carefully load my 50 yard ammunition in only once fired Winchester brass. It didn't really make a difference, but it gave me confidence in my 50 yard ammunition, and that counts for a lot. The Ransom Rest tests I did showed about .2" difference in 10 shot groups between mixed brass and once fired brass at 50 yards, but in my mind I just knew I needed that once fired brass to be able to shoot well. The mind is an evil thing..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Moonie]

I've decided I'm going to reform all the sp's I find into 400 Corbon, just to make sure I don't jam up my progressive.

[LUBEDUDE]

I've decided I'm going to reform all the sp's I find into 400 Corbon, just to make sure I don't jam up my progressive.

That's a good idea!

[Big Boomer]

I have a Dan Wesson Pointeman 2 that shoots really well. Last October I had loaded up some of the .45 brass with the small pistol primer (CCI), 4.8 grains of Bullseye and a 220 grain LBT LFN boolit (kind of a contradiction of terms to call any 220 grain .45 ACP boolit a Long Flat Nose boolit - long it is not).

But it was no laughing matter when I shot the smallest group I ever fired with a semi-auto pistol, though it did produce a big smile. I know lucky accidents happen - I've experienced a few, and I was shooting from sand bags and using golf gloves so I could hold the pistol better. That group measured less than 1 inch and I have duplicated it since.

Really have no idea whether it is the pistol or the small pistol primer with that particular load but it works good in that combination. 'Tuck

[donaldjr1969]

I have a Dan Wesson Pointeman 2 that shoots really well. Last October I had loaded up some of the .45 brass with the small pistol primer (CCI), 4.8 grains of Bullseye and a 220 grain LBT LFN boolit (kind of a contradiction of terms to call any 220 grain .45 ACP boolit a Long Flat Nose boolit - long it is not).

But it was no laughing matter when I shot the smallest group I ever fired with a semi-auto pistol, though it did produce a big smile. I know lucky accidents happen - I've experienced a few, and I was shooting from sand bags and using golf gloves so I could hold the pistol better. That group measured less than 1 inch and I have duplicated it since.

Really have no idea whether it is the pistol or the small pistol primer with that particular load but it works good in that combination. 'Tuck
Tuck, that is an interesting post you make. Once I get some slugs, both bullets and especially boolits, I was just going to load all my LP primer cases then load all my SP primer cases or vice versa. Now your post made me think. Why not try to load X number each of SP and LP cases with identical loads and see what, if any, differences there are for me.

FWIW, I am reloading 45acp for a Ruger P90. While it is no Les Baer, Wilson, or Ed Brown class pistol, it is surprisingly accurate for its cost.

[Big Boomer]

Donaldjr1969: Your proposed route should be a good one. Only thing it will prove, though, is what the difference might be in another semi-auto. I, too, have a Ruger P90 and haven't tried my small primer .45 reloads with my cast boolits in it. Have tried them only in a Chas Daly and the DW Pointeman2. Be interesting to see what your results are. 'Tuck

[evan price]

At first it was only WIN-NT with small primers. Then FED-NT. Now there is a lot of BLAZER brass ammo with a small, nonplated (yellow brass) primer. Since there is already BLAZER that is large primer and looks nearly identical, it gets tricky to pick it out.
I sorted 15 gallons of 45 acp brass so far this month and I have about 2 gallons of small primer 45's. (Also had a quart or so of A-MERC but those went directly to the scrap bin!)
It may not save a ton of money, but if ammo companies can eliminate a part number from inventory (large pistol primers) they save money on logistics cost.

45 Colt can have small primers, 454 Casull uses small rifle primers. A small rifle magnum primer would be ideal for any of the bigger cases. Just think about small primer 44 Mag and 45 Colt... :P

[scrapcan]

Alvarez Kelly

I will send you a pm and we will work out somethign to help out BD.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Alvarez Kelly

I will send you a pm and we will work out somethign to help out BD.

That works for me. I haven't seen the PM yet... If you sent it, try again.

[Doby45]

I've decided I'm going to reform all the sp's I find into 400 Corbon, just to make sure I don't jam up my progressive.

Any SP 45ACP I come across is yours bossman. I will collect it until I have a pretty good bit to save on shipping. But for me personally it is not worth it to shoot SP and LP at the same time due to needing to segregate it for the reloading process. Using it in the manner that Moonie describes is perfect.

[scrapcan]

Alvarez Kelly,

I sent a new pm.

Moonie,

What you stated is what I hope might work out for me also.

[Moonie]

Do keep in mind that factory 400 corbon brass is +p brass, do not load top loads in reformed standard 45 brass, they aren't as strong. I use them with starting loads only.

[dudel]

Yep. Love em.

Converted all my ACP brass to small primer. One less primer size for me to stock. No more primer assembly changes on the 550b.

Some fans of ACP small primer brass claim better accuracy. It's certainly no worse IME, and may actually be a bit better. I know I'm seeing lower ES on the chrono, and that can't be bad.

I did experiment with ACP LP and SP brass, same boolit, same powder, same weight, and the SP had better chrono numbers (slightly higher velocity, lower ES, lower SD). FWIW, the flash holes are smaller as well.

[hiram1]

i wonder if the nt primers age out you no like in a year or so

[izzyjoe]

this is a good tread, with some good info. i've been saving the nt brass till i get a coulpe hundred, and then i'll load 'em. i even save wolf steel cases, they do alright, but not great. i don't buy in to the ideal of aged ammo, just some tall tales.

[Lead guy]

I have been saving my 45 casings (learned to reload on 9mm) until I had enough to warant buying dies. After reading this thread I went to check out what I have. Turns out its about 50/50 between the two.

Reloader Fred mentioned maybe a reduction in FPS between the two. When the time comes, should I work up two loads? Or will the primer size not be that big of a deal? All my load manuals show loads with the large primer. Am I making too much of this? I dont use a progressive press (right now).

[izzyjoe]

the primer should'nt have anything to do with it as long as you'r not working up max loads, and if you sort you'r brass you'll have no problems.

[Roundnoser]

Based on what I have read on this thread, I don't think there is much difference in performance between the large and small pistol brass. For plinking or competition out to 25 yards or so, both would probably work equally as well. My beef is with identification! Check each piece for primer size just adds another step in the process. For high volume reloading, it takes up more time. -- Maybe they could color-code the primers or heads so you could tell instantly....Sorry, what was I thinking?!...just day dreaming for a minute!:-D

[bumpo628]

I have been saving my 45 casings (learned to reload on 9mm) until I had enough to warant buying dies. After reading this thread I went to check out what I have. Turns out its about 50/50 between the two.

Reloader Fred mentioned maybe a reduction in FPS between the two. When the time comes, should I work up two loads? Or will the primer size not be that big of a deal? All my load manuals show loads with the large primer. Am I making too much of this? I dont use a progressive press (right now).

Just use the same load data. The difference is negligible.

You also might consider trading them with someone else once you collect enough to fill a small flat rate box. Get rid of whichever one seems less common to your purchasing/scrounging situation.

Some people with progressives prefer them so they don't have to switch over the primer setup.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Nearly all of the SP .45 cases I have a re Winchester marked "WIN NT" I have seen a few <5 other brands,

All of the ones I have came froma indoor range too.

Clint Smith changed to NT ammo when he moved to Oregon because he didn't want to have to deal with the Environmental Freaks there and NT ammo is one less thing they can pick at..

Randy

[Alvarez Kelly]

Alvarez Kelly

I will send you a pm and we will work out somethign to help out BD.

Donation made to BD. Brass mailed to manleyjt. Thanks!

[Lead guy]

Thanks for the advice Bumpo 628

[Ziptar]

I had some time last night to go through some more of the brass I picked up from my club's indoor range.

Just eyeing the containers it now looks like I've got more small primer than large.

Its mostly Win NT but there's some Speer and Blazer in it also.

[milprileb]

Roundnoser: I had exactly the same drama on my Dillon 650 last week and went through the entire sequence you did with press and purging bucket of brass on hand.

I am not going to justify why this is happening other than to say: It's a Communist Plot !

That said, and noooooooooo, I don't buy any new generation justification like higher technology and advances in ammunition etc etc. I will adapt and guard
against any of this stuff polluting my 45acp brass supplies in the future.

If its the wave of the future, I will fight it till I got to use the stuff.

:Fire:

[thehouseproduct]

Just bought these at Wally World. These aren't marked NT or anything similar.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/4404ce30-fd7c-79b4.jpg

[Fireball 57]

Gentlemen: Just my preference, but since I have a single stage press, I don't have the case inspection problems of a progressive press. I don't have the blown pistol/powder load overload problems that I have seen with the Dillons. I inspect, inspect, and inspect at each stage of reloading. Since some of the Federal NT cases with small primer pockets have crimped primer pockets, I simply throw them into the brass recycling bucket at $1.68 a pound though the 9mm Federal NT cases can be reloaded with small pistol primers and no crimp. Have a great day!

[JIMinPHX]

Many years ago, I used to run into the occasional off-shore military .45acp case that had a small primer pocket. Then I didn't see any of them for about 15 or 20 years & I thought that they were a thing of the past. A few years ago, I started seeing them from a few domestic manufacturers. At first I cursed them as just being another thing that I had to watch out for. Then the big ammo shortage happened right after the liar in chief got elected & I had a hard time finding large pistol primers. Suddenly I was very happy to have a handful of .45acp cases with small primer pockets.

I would advise people not to throw those things away or send them to the recyclers as scrap by the pound. The day may come again when small primer .45 cases are a useful item to have hanging around.

[MtGun44]

Got a lot of "Blazer Brass" .45 ACP cases with the small pistol primer in this last batch of
range brass that I swept up after a training class. What a PITA to sort out. Somebody
at CCI oughtta get smacked up the side of the head for this durned fool trick.

Bill

[ErikO]

Mine are largely Fiocchi. But I just seperate the Small from the Large and prime them both.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My last .02 on this subject is,,, There is nothing wrong with the small primer .45 ACP brass, as long as you find it before you foul your progressive with it. If .45 ACP is the only LP case with SP's and nothing else is being loaded with them then the industry will probably be changing to small primers for all auto pistol rounds.

I look at my cases after I pick them up, after they get tumbled, and as I am loading them into the press.. Then I put any SP cases into a separate bag. I have about 100 or so so far.

As soon as I get enough saved up I will change the primer feed on the SDB and load all of them.

They will get used in places where they won't let me pick up my brass. Then they can deal with them.

Randy

[1hole]

"All they care about is that it goes off for the original purchaser, whether it's an individual, LE agency or the military."

Or Walmart.

[G__Fred]

As we all know, most 45 ACP is a large primer operation. Some manufactures use small primers and these usually land in the Brass Bucket.

My re-loading bench is tooled to reload 45/small with no problems. Therefore, I am looking to collect the 45 small primer Brass Trash, $0.02 each.
I prefer to FTF for no less than $20.00 a transaction, if we are able to "make a deal" and shipping is required, I'll cover shipping.

I offer the following options for 1000 to 3000 peices, $20.00 per 1000, max of $60.00 for 3000


THANKS!


Brands that use Small Primers (by extensive time sorting brass):

- Blazer: 100%
- WIN NT: 100%
- Federal: 20%
- Federal NT: 100%