38 special in 357 magnum revolvers bad accuracy

[rogsir]

I have a couple of loads and bullets that i use in my model 14 with exellent accuracy, but when i use these loads in my 357 revolvers it spreads out, is this common ?

[Bass Ackward]

I'd say yes.

You seal a lot quicker in the 14 so is it "really" the same load?

Chrono would tell ya.

[NickSS]

I do not know what load you are using but I have shot thousands of 38s in my 357 mags with similar results as compared to the same load in a 38. It is possible that your barrel dimensions are different between the two hand guns. I have had several guns that all shoot a bit different even in the same caliber so it is possible that your 357 just does not like the load that your 38 likes.

[btroj]

Every gun has a different opinion of a good load. Just because one likes that load doesn't mean all will. Every wonder why we aren't all using the same load in certain calibers? There is no one special load that always works.

[rogsir]

It is 3 different 357 revolvers that spread out the load, in my model 14 every hole touches at 30 yards, but in model 27, 28 and 586 it open up the group, from 2 to 4 inches. Its not a problem since i mostly shoot magnum in my magnums, but i just wantet to know.

[HATCH]

if I had to guess its the distance between the bullet and the barrel.
Its the .14 difference gap between 38sp and 357 mag case length.

I shoot 38s in my model 28 but they are at near magnum level (5.5 grains unique = +p+)

[rlw0489]

You will find out that some bullets will not shoot the same pattern from different pistols, it depends on the powder that you are using also.

I have been messing around with Unique at 4.9 g pushing a 158 swc.
the pattern at 30 yds is about 2"
4.2 @ 30 is about 3"

[cajun shooter]

The old standard Police practice and PPC load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye has done well for me over the years. I have fired this load in both standard 38 special revolvers and 357 magnum revolvers with the same results

[Le Loup Solitaire]

38's can shoot very well in a 357, but they have to be tuned for the gun. The case is 1/10th" shorter and this has to be considered. No 2 guns of the same caliber will necessarily give the same accuracy with any one loading regardless of what the book says is the "classic load" so some tinkering/experimenting usually has to be done. Barrel length is also a factor. Nothing however is written in stone; some folks have been lucky in getting one given loading to work in more than one gun. If it works out for you that way then fine, otherwise try other charges or powders. LLS

[ColColt]

I guess I've been lucky as my GP100 shoots 38 or 38+ as good as 357 loads. This is 6.5 gr of HS-6 and a 158 gr from the Lyman 358421 mold and it was dropping undersized boolits at this point! That has since been fixed.


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF3867s.jpg

[357shooter]

I'll go with "yes it's normal". Loads in 38 brass can be accurate in a 357, however not as accurate as using 357 brass.

[Moondawg]

Actually my standard load that I shoot in my 38 spec and my 357 mag revolvers is velocity wise about a standerd 38 load (3.5 bullseye and 158 gr lead boolit). It shoots very accuratly in some of the 38s and not so good in others. It shoots really accurately in all but one of of my 357s. With a few exceptions it is an accurate load in both calibers. Sort of depends on the individual pistol what it likes.

[357shooter]

Looks like I misunderstood the original post. 38 special loads and bullets (they are the same for the most part) in 357 brass are excellent, and are the most accurate I shoot in my 357.

However using 38 brass looses some accuracy, in a 357.

[Skrenos]

Easy to test. Just put that same load into .357 brass and see how it shoots. That will let you know if it's due to using .38 brass, or just the combination of components that's doing it.

[Gunsmoke4570]

For the most part 38's will shoot about the same out of .357's in my experience. There are always some exceptions, but you should get satisfactory results.

My PPC match guns are 357's (Stock 686 and a scoped 686 custom) and I shoot nothing but 38s in them. Six shot clover leaf groups at 25 yards (sand bag rest) are the norm with HBWC and still sub 1" groups with Keith style SWC. Shooting the standard 2.7gr BE in the HBWC and 3.5BE with the SWC. Accuracy is about the same as what I get in my Model 14 and scoped Model 10 custom.

[Bret4207]

If I understand the question, yes, it's common for 38's to group differently when fired in a 357 chamber than in a 38 chamber. The chamber is different which gives a whole different pressure curve to the load. Add in differing dimensions, etc. and, IMO, it's odd that we sometimes find loads that DO equal accuracy in the different chambers!

[Char-Gar]

The answer is a definite yes and no! Some .357 mag pistol group larger with 38 Special loads and some group the same. Some 38 Special loads work better in the longer chambers than others.

The reality is that just about every .357 Magnum can be made to shoot very well with 38 Special cases. It may not give optimum accuracy, but will shoot very well.

I once owned a Colt Python that would shoot 38 Specials better than .357 Mags. Go figure!

[pdawg_shooter]

My only .357 is a Colt Python 4" blue. It seems to shoot both about equally well. I rarely shoot 38s in it but when I do I can't see any difference in accuracy. Point of impact, now there is a difference.

[kmag]

I agree with Cajun Shooter that 2.7 grains of bullseye under a 148 gr wad cutter has shot in every .38 or .357 that I own(10 rifles and handguns). Back in the late 60's and 70's, I shot in from 2 to 6 combat matches a month. I met several hundred shooters over that time period. Everyone shot .38 ammo because it was a revovler match. The distance fired was from 7 to 50 yards. Many of the shooters used .357 includeing myself. I never heard anyone complain about the extra distance (.135) that the slug had to travel in the .357 chamber. Everyone I talked with used 2.5 to 3.1 grains of Bullseye, 700-x, ww 231 or HP 38. Generally whatever was on sale. Most shot 148gr wc with a few shooting 140, 142 and the 100gr that zero made. There were some great scores posted and everyone had a good time. These days when I take a .38 or .357 to the range I take a ammo can full of loads that fall into these parameters as well as heavy loads and barn burners. They have never dissapointed me. I once got the bright idea that I would develope a target load in .357 brass so I wouldn't have to spend as much time cleaning the residue out of the longer cylinder. I still have a notebook listing the 2,200 hundred rounds I fired with none of them doing as well as the .38 cases. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment after all these years I have started the search again and have met with disapointment thus far.

[357shooter]

Interesting thread. Here's my assessment after reading the great posts:

My results led me to the conclusion that 357 brass is more accurate than 38 brass. That's based on testing a couple of thousand rounds and keeping records, of measured groups.

However, that result is based on a couple of things. The most important is that my tests results are force ranked. That means that if a bullet design and it's most accurate load repeatedly groups 1/4 inch bigger than another load. It's not as accurate, in my book, and gets crossed off the list. That approach is different as a lot of shooters look at the groups and are satisfied with the size, and are good with a bullet and load. That's very valid, just different than taking out calipers and measuring to fractions of an inch. It leads to very different answers to the OP.

I use 25 yards as the test distance, which makes a big difference when compared to 10 or 15 yards. I know that's true, from the results. Once the most accurate design, semi-wadcutters was clear, taking the most accurate load to 38 brass caused the group to open up. It may be 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch or more. Depends on the gun. Most shooters would look at the groups and conclude, looks good. When the group sizes are measured and sorted in a spreadsheet, a .8 inch group always beats a 1.1 inch group. They both can look good, but the 1.1 inch load gets crossed off my list.

If shooting a design that is "down-the-list" in accuracy, the difference in group sizes when using 38 or 357 brass gets compressed. At least that's the conclusion I've reached from my tests.

Most shooters don't care about .25 inch, or smaller, difference in group sizes. But it is a critical factor in my test results.

Distance makes a huge difference too. Even moving in to 18 yards will compress the results, so that many bullets and loads group great. If you shoot at that range or shorter, a full wadcutter or the Lee 105 SWC are right there at the top of the list, along with the 158RF and other designs too. At 25 yards, they group bigger than a SWC, by .25-.5 inches, in some cases they blow up at 25 yards and hardly group at all.

So lot's of details depend on how you look at it. Hope that didn't bore everyone to sleep...

[9.3X62AL]

I stopped using shorter cases in longer chambers a while back. Cleaining out the crud ring that forms at the front of the chambers got to be a PITA. If I want 38 Special performance in a 357 Magnum, I use a 357 casing and 38 Special data + 10%. All of the Magnum revolvers are pleasant and accurate running 950-1000 FPS with standard-weight SWCs.

[44man]

There has always been a difference with shorter brass. Not much, but a difference.
I think it is because the boolit has to enter the throat from the chamber, then enter the forcing cone, two steps. Make the boolit to enter the throat with the shorter brass and eliminate the first step.
Nothing to do with the load, just the boolit used and how far out it is.

[cajun shooter]

Let me add something to my post. The PPC load that I spoke of is fired at a distance of from 7 to 50 yards not 25. This was also posted by Kmag. 357 shooter when you say that you have tested a couple of thousand and kept records. Well my results are not just from my own gun but the range that I worked at is where we held the monthly and State Championship matches. I also loaded hundreds of thousands of these rounds on a Camdex machine to train a 600 man force each year. They were required to fire twice a year with each gun carried. Our range was a Metro range which also included the City officers and they had 600 men and women also. That makes 1200 officers plus the 50 to over 100 that shot the PPC matches. Every round fired was scored and put on each officers file. The PPC matches were of course scored with prizes being given away. My point is that from what would be over a million rounds is where my information came from. I also did as Kmag and tried to find that perfect 357 target round. It did not receive more than about 3 months of testing as I never found one that was the same in different guns. It's a mystery to me even today. One thing that I always thought in all these years was that the small amount of chamber difference acted like freeboreing a rifling, just a guess. I read both internal and external ballistics with out coming up with a answer. I also never had a problem with cleaning any revolver that fired these rounds. We had Lew's cleaning kits if they were needed. The load was as I stated the Speer 148 grain HBWC, 2.7 grains of Bullseye, Winchester cases and CCI primers.

[357shooter]

cajun_shooter:

I wasn't trying to debate you, just posting my results in a specific way. That way readers can see or understand how or why their results are different than mine.

That's a lot of bullets.

It also goes to the point I was trying to make. The measure used in your post is scoring, a great measurement for sure. But it can provide different results than measuring groups with calipers. Can't a group size possibly vary .1-.2 inches and provide the same score?

I'm guessing it happens, but don't have the experience you do with scored competitions. I could see that a wadcutter making a cleaner hole may help scoring as opposed to a SWC. Maybe I'm wrong, as I don't really know.

Question; was all this shooting done off a rest to remove the shooter from the equation? If not we are comparing apples and oranges. Both still valid, just different I don't compete or have interest in these events, so I'm asking for confirmation (I assume it's all off-hand, which is a valid measurement as well). All of my results are off a rest (not a great one, but still a rest) to better evaluate the accuracy of the gun and the bullet/load, and not the shooter.

If the huge database you mentioned is off a rest, then shooting for groups measured by scores may be a little different than shooting for inches measured center-to-center, vs some guys that are very satisfied with: looks good. All valid approaches.

The test results I mentioned were strictly shooting for groups, measured center-to-center with calipers, at 25 yards, off a rest.

At any rate, it's a great topic.

[9.3X62AL]

I would submit--in theory, at least--that the hollow-based wadcutters frequently used in PPC (and other) 38 Special/357 Magnum revolver/pistol competitions do a very good job of adapting themselves to the environments they are working in. These boolits are assisted in no small way by the generally good dimensioning given to 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers, across manufacturer lines. They're all pretty close.

[songdog53]

I shoot lot of 38spl. in my S&W model 66 and they group very well for me and have compared them to same weight boolit in 357. They are nearly the same and both are pushing 1000fps with Ramshot Zip. Have shot the same with Unique and 231, i find they shoot as well as the 357 loaded with 2400 or Blue Dot.

[44man]

If the boolit enters the throat, it will shoot but being in shorter brass it has to align itself to the throat first---bump one.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Long ago I started doing as 44 Man, I long load my 38 to 357 overall length.
Yes, you guessed:Fire::Fire: it, I also up the powder charge.