Info on hard cast

[2_Smithereenz]

Could anybody point me in the right direction for info on hard cast?
What exactly IS hard cast, how do I make it, can I start with WW mix or do I need pure lead?
I know these are rookie questions, but I haven't been casting very long so I am a rookie. [smilie=s:

Links would be most helpful.........Thanks!

[bumpo628]

That is a marketing term used by commercial casting companies to describe lead bullets.
They usually have a one-size-fits-all attitude and make everything to Brinell 18. They probably do that more to survive shipping than because it works well in your gun.

As a caster, you can make what works for you. Many people use a softer boolit in their low velocity rounds. You can mix WW with pure in a 50/50 ratio. Straight WW lead is very versatile and will work either air-cooled or water dropped for almost anything.

What calibers are you using?

[2_Smithereenz]

I was going to try some of my cast .40's from a MP mold in my Glock 20 10mm. Had a guy over on Glock Talk tell me he shot hard cast out of his using the factory barrel. I guess I was thinking that hard cast must be a harder mix than my WW's are? He claims that he doesn't have any leading problems, but then he didn't say if he casts his own or buys them? I also don't know what lube he uses or any other details. I know there's a lot of other variables that go into a lead free load, but I thought I would find out what hard cast is first and go from there. I just don't hear that term very much in the circles I run, we just call everything cast unless it's a specific mix or alloy and then we specify what it is.

So theoretically I could make "harder" cast by water dropping? But I've also read that water dropping isn't always better either.

Thanks for the reply Bumpo.

[bumpo628]

I was going to try some of my cast .40's from a MP mold in my Glock 20 10mm. Had a guy over on Glock Talk tell me he shot hard cast out of his using the factory barrel. I guess I was thinking that hard cast must be a harder mix than my WW's are? He claims that he doesn't have any leading problems, but then he didn't say if he casts his own or buys them? I also don't know what lube he uses or any other details. I know there's a lot of other variables that go into a lead free load, but I thought I would find out what hard cast is first and go from there. I just don't hear that term very much in the circles I run, we just call everything cast unless it's a specific mix or alloy and then we specify what it is.

So theoretically I could make "harder" cast by water dropping? But I've also read that water dropping isn't always better either.

Thanks for the reply Bumpo.

I don't know very much about cast boolits in a Glock, but I do know that they don't recommend it. Something about the polygonal rifling not allowing the boolit to seal properly. There are aftermarket traditionally-rifled barrels that you can use if you want to shoot cast. That being said, you can do it but you just need to make sure you don't let it lead up. The pressure will increase too much. Hopefully someone with more Glock experience will chime in and educate us.

I would start by casting some straight wheel weight boolits and air cool them. Should give you a brinell hardness around 12. See what that does and go from there.

As I understand it, there are three important factors in casting boolits:
The most important factor is "fit" The boolit needs to be about 0.002" larger than the barrel. Slug your bore to find out what you have.

Another factor is lubrication. Try Lee Liquid Alox and tumble lube your boolits. You'll need to heat the bottle in a cup of hot water to get it out of the bottle. Another option is to mix LLA with Johnson's Paste Wax and Mineral Spirits. The classic ratio is 45/45/10 of LLA/JPW/MS. There is a sticky in the Lube forum that tells more about it.

Alloy selection and hardness depends on the velocity of the boolit. Slower rounds like 45ACP perform better with a softer alloy. This is because the softer alloy can deform under the lower pressure to fit the barrel better than a hard alloy. Faster rounds like rifles need a really hard alloy or gas checks. You can also control hardness by air cooling, water dropping, or heat treating. As a reference, WW goes from 12 to 18 by water dropping.

It's more art than science, as I understand it. Anyway, keep it simple in the beginning. Continue reading and asking questions here and buy the Lyman cast bullet handbook. The third edition is on sale for under $7 at midway (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=796528). I made a calculator that might help you in the future for mixing your own alloys. You can find it here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105952. It also makes a handy printable reference chart.

By the way,
Be sure to wear protective clothing and don't add anything to a hot pot without preheating it.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

[2_Smithereenz]

Thanks again Bumpo, yeah I know all about the warnings with Glock factory barrels. Sure are alot of guys doing it with no problems or ill effects so evidently there is a way to shoot cast out of a glock without spending more money on an aftermarket barrel. I'll watch close for leading issues and keep my loads light and simple till I know how it's going to react.

If I can get only 1 good cast load worked up for it I'll be happy. I've got a pile of lead and an expensive mold and I intend to shoot my own bullets one way or the other even if I have to copper plate them myself, which wouldn't be a big deal either. I've shot plated bullets out of it before with no leading. So that's also an option.

[Mossy Nugget]

From one Noob to another, I had many, many questions about cast boolits covered by: From Ingot to Target www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf Read, and re-read. Hope it helps you as much as it did me!

[2_Smithereenz]

Thanks Mossy, I'll check it out.

[Defcon-One]

I had this in my notes from an old post here. I wish I could recall who posted it, I beg his pardon, but it will answer your question completely:

**********

"Hardball" alloy is the generic designation for Magnum Alloy©, an alloy composed of 2% Tin/6% Antimony/92%Pb.

The alloy was a joint development effort by Terracorp and Magma. The goal was to develop an economical yet effective replacement of Lyman No.2 for the commercial casters who make Hard Cast bullets.

The Hardball alloy is most easily created by mixing equal parts of pure lead with linotype (4/12/84). Doing so gives us the resulting 2/6/92. (Sn/Sb/Pb).

Lyman No.2 composition---5/5/90
"Hardball" composition------2/6/92

Terracorp copyrighted the term "Magnum Alloy"©. As others began using the 2/6/92 composition, legal battles ensued. The final decision was that although Terracorp had rights to the name, they had no rights to the actual alloy composition. So the industry name for 2/6/92 has evolved into "Hardball Alloy". Otherwise, the two alloys are identical.

Although they are very different in hardening characteristics, antimony and tin are very similar in other ways, namely in casting characteristics. So the two alloys (Hardball and Lyman No.2) are very similar. Final casting diameter is nearly identical, as is final hardness. Accomplishing these results while using less than half the tin is definitely to the advantage of the commercial caster. Not to mention that at the time of development, linotype metal was readily available.

The largest difference between the two alloys concerns malleability/brittleness. The No.2 alloy has a slight advantage in this aspect (less brittle) due to increased tin content in relation to the amount of antimony present.

One is more malleable, while the other is more economical so, take your pick.

**********

What was said above by others is 100% correct. They are made this hard mostly to survive the shipping from the commercial casters to the consumer. Probably too hard for most applications in my opinion. Cut the Antimony in half and you have a winner at 2% Tin, 3% Antimony and 95% Lead. (2/3/95 or "Defcon-One Alloy"© as I copyrighted it! ) Just Kidding!

Final Note: I use Bumpo's alloy calculator all the time. You can not beat it. It is a true work of art. It makes alloying fun and easy for me!

[2_Smithereenz]

Ask and Ye Shall Recieve, wow thanks for all the info guys! I got plenty of research to do now and my mold should be here anyday now. Miha said it already shipped a few days ago, so however long it takes to get to Missouri and I'm gonna start experimenting. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

[LUBEDUDE]

As far as the Glock issue, Glock has to make that statement for liability reasons because some guys just will not clean their barrels.
The way the polygonal rifling works with lead is, everytime a lead bullet goes down the barrel a very small particle of lead gets "stripped" away. As opposed to conventional barrels where leading is caused by "leakage/deposits". The size of the stripping all depends upon the makeup of the bullet - hardness,sizing,lube. The more bullets the more lead build up. Kind of like how your arteries get arthersclerosis. Over time as the hole in the barrel gets smaller and pressure builds, you have a Boo Boo.

What the magic number of rounds is, is anyones guess, but again, it will always be different depending upon your bullet due to it's make up.

There are two keys to shooting hard cast bullets in Glocks -

One - volume, don't go ape. Don't go out and shoot 3-400 rounds between cleanings - unless you KNOW for sure it is safe.

Two- Clean that barrel good. If you have flakes of lead or worse, strips of lead, then you know to back off on your number of rounds or change your bullet.

I shoot hard cast bullets in my Glocks, 17,20,23 frequently with no issues what so ever. I do limit my round count to 150 per gun. And I clean well before using again.

YMMV

Good Luck

[leadman]

There is a "sticky" in the Wheelguns, pistols, hand cannons forum on shooting lead in Glocks.