Martini?

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

After being interested in owning a Martini for a long time, I'm now looking at the guns sold by Atlanta Cutlery ( http://www.atlantacutlery.com/ ). They sell "untouched" guns that were removed from storage of over 100 years, and others that appear to have been cleaned.

Have any of you had experience with this company, or purchased any of these guns?

Thanks, Tom

[curator]

I have bought two of the "cleaned" Martinis, a MkII and a MarkIV. Both were a little gunked up but in very good condition. The bores in particular were very good. I was very happy with my purchase. I did pay a bit extra for "hand picked." If you can actually go to their warehouse in Atlanta you can insure your rifle meets your expectations.

[Bulldogger]

If you mean the $189 Gahendra arsenal rifles, I bought two and had a good experience. Bought mine through Sportsman's Guide, they're def the same ones being sold by IMA, because they were dropped shipped not from SPGs ZIP but from IMAs.
If you're a member of Sportsman's Guide buyers club, you can buy them for 10% off list price, which basically covers shipping. Some may be missing bits, but mine were largely complete and I'm very happy with them. Once I'm done selling and moving, I'll be finishing and shooting my Martini Henry Gahendra.
Here is a link to my restoration: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=26382;hl=bulldogger

Bulldogger

[Tatume]

Hi Bulldogger,

Your project looks very successful, and I'm encouraged to give it a go myself. Assuming I would have to slug the bore and have a mould made, are the Gahendra Martini's chambered in 577/450? I see Bell and Jamison brass advertised for about $6.50 per cartridge case. Can this case be formed from anything else (probably not).

Have you shot your gun yet? How does it shoot?

Take care, Tom

[Bulldogger]

Or slugged the bore, no sorry. I'll keep that project thread updated as I make progress. I'm selling my house and moving these next 2 months, it's the first projeect I'll do as soon as I'm unpacked. Relining a cimarron plinkerton after that. Then ? We'll see
Bdgr

[Boz330]

I would go for the real MH instead of the Gahendra, they are stronger. Like Curator I went with the cleaned hand picked and while still needing some cleaning it is a great rifle. If you get an "as is" rifle it may have parts missing and what if you can't get those parts right away.
The brass can be formed from the Magtec 24 gauge brass shot shells. The Gahendras barrels are typically .458 where the MK II MHs are .468 tapering to .464. The MKIV is up around .470. Here is a group from my rifle at 100yds with BP.

Bob

[doubs43]

I agree with Boz; go for the true MH. Parts for the Gehendra may not be so easy to replace.

[bydand]

But then I bought one of those untouched martini's. Had to destroy the buttstock to get it off and use a PIPE WRENCH to remove the stock bolt.
I suppose some folks get lucky, but I think my "luck" went sour. The bore is usable. Destroyed one barrel band removing it. Screw was just NOT going to move after soaking for a week in various solvents. Thats the only Martini I bought from IMA, the others came from Canada and other sources. The accessories I bought from them are OK

[Bulldogger]

The Gehandras are "gunsmith specials" I have to admit. But I'm a budding hobbyist in gunsmithing. I've made a few screws to replace worn ones, I had to repair some wood, and I've got a hammer to repair (broke off the spring catch lever, whatever it's called).
Kroil worked wonders, that and patience. If I felt the urge, I'd buy some again, they do well enough.

The IMA (or wherever you order them through, if it's untouched Nepalese, it's IMA's and will be drop shipped) untouched Gahendras are NOT clean up and shoot grade. No chance. They are "spend some time and elbow grease on, along with a little yankee ingenuity, and you'll get a nice gun" grade.

BDGR

[leadman]

I was reading an old Handloader last night and stopped at the article on loading and forming brass for the 577-450. That is why this thread caught my attention. There is quite a bit of load data if you are interested PM me.

I think it is great seeing these old rifles being brought back to life.

Today at the range 2 guys were firing new black rifles of different makes, but when I brought out my original Rolling block they had to come over and admire it. These old guns have soul and character.

[Lawnjockey]

I purchase an unmarked untouched MKII M-H from IMA a couple of years ago I had fun cleaning it up and I was pleased with the overall condition. With your first M-H the actual purchase of the rifle is the cheap part. Brass, dies and a mould are expensive. The dies won't work on all presses due to size. However once you are set up it is a load of fun. I am getting ready to make a tribe of plywood Zulus for a camp out later this summer. Nothing quite like sitting around the camp fire enjoying a couple of pints, then spying a Zulu hiding in the bush. You set your pint down, tilt the brim of your pith helmet up and take aim. Once dispatched you return to your still chilled pint and the rudely interrupted conversation. Moments later your mate spys another. The whiteman's burden and all.

[Ed in North Texas]

Not pointing any fingers, but a reminder might be appropriate that firearms, reloading and alcohol definitely do not mix.

[ambergrifleman]

I have 2 Gehendras, 1 MK 2 Martini Henry and a MK 4 Martini Henry, All were the Untouched Rifles. I had a Lot of Fun Cleaning them All up !!! They Turned Out Very Nice. Fun to Shoot Too !!! All from Atlanta Cutlery. Cases for the 450/577 Cartridge can be formed from 24 Gauge Shotgun Brass. Go to You Tube, There are Videos on the Subject.

[jcwaters]

I have a MK IV from IMA-usa.com (part of the same cache). The missus bought it for me earlier this year and it is an incredible rifle. I have only fired it about 80 times since then but look forward to putting the gun right (some woodwook needs to be done) and seeing if I can get it to print inside of a dinner plate at 100 yards. :)

I have not bought an untouched gun from the Nepal Cache, but I have seen plenty of success stories regarding the untouched guns. Go and check the surplus rifle forums for a guy named Norm Sutton, he has documented his restoration/cleanup of more than a few rifles.


I will happily share my load data and techniques with anyone willing to listen. The .577/.450 is a little different than the BP cartridges that we came to use in the US of A.

[ambergrifleman]

Get Yourself, A Short Lever or Long Lever Martini Henry from Atlanta Cutlery, You will not be Sorry. Make it a Untouched, and have Fun Cleaning it All up Too !

[lawboy]

I am getting ready to make a tribe of plywood Zulus for a camp out later this summer. Nothing quite like sitting around the camp fire enjoying a couple of pints, then spying a Zulu hiding in the bush. You set your pint down, tilt the brim of your pith helmet up and take aim. Once dispatched you return to your still chilled pint and the rudely interrupted conversation. Moments later your mate spys another. The whiteman's burden and all.

Seriously? Wow. :-(

[azcruiser]

J&G has the ammo 450/577 think I paid $48.00 for a box of 20 big shell

[bydand]

Then there is the price of the dies:groner:

Oh by the way .45-70 bullets are undersized, so you will also need the RCBS mould

[wellfedirishman]

There is lots of good info also on the Yuku British Militaria forums. Google it to find more.

I have a Nepalese Gahendra, picked it up in a trade some time back. It actually shoots pretty well with a stout load of black powder and a .459 diameter soft lead 500 grain Lee bullet. It had a broken hammer/firing pin when I got it, took some garage engineering (with a 6d nail) to fix it. Now it shoots fine.

[muskeg13]

I think the AC and IMA intouched guns are comparable. I have a AC Snider that turned out very well with little (only slight understatement) more than a good cleaning and moderate stock work. This Snider's bore was near perfect. I was able to go to the AC warehouse and pick out my own rifle, but the condition of the bore may have been luck as it was so dirty when I selected it that I was just hoping it was OK. For what it's worth, my "guide" said almost all of the Sniders have good bores. His words were true for me.

The IMA Gahendra was (and is) a challenge, but the difficulty has nothing to do with the importer. Gahendra's are not in that great shape, Francottes I hear are even worse. These rifles will require lots of patience to get them shooting again. They definitely show Nepal home workshop quality in some areas. Some things are pretty good, like the barrel/bore, receiver and breechblock, but many of the screws are very crude and will have to be remade.

I highly recommend two other websites to assist in restoring old Martinis:
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Martini-Henry-Forum
and
http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/loadingforthemartinihenry/index.asp

I just reassembled my project rifle tonight with a new finishing nail firing pin, after 2 attempts with reworked drill bits failed. They were too brittle. I hope to work uo loads in the coming week. My bore slugs .464 with soft lead, but the Lee 405 gr hollow base seems perfect.

[Stevie]

I own a trio of original British Martini rifles that came from the Nepal Cache...this being where both Atlanta Cutlery and International Military Antiques get the guns.

I've got other arms from the cache too..and the British guns are the way to go if you want a shooter. The native Nepal made Francotte and Gehendra Martini-style guns apparently have a tendency towards small non-standard bores...and the barrels are hammer forged/welded iron. The solid steel British rifles are far superior in manufacture and materials.

[Lawnjockey]

On the other hand if you purchase a Francotte or Gehendra you are purchasing something truly hand made in some third world sweat shop under very sweaty conditions. Picture Habeeb with nothing more than a hammer, a file and a crude forge.

Would I shoot one? No, but that is beside the point. There is a certain joy in owning something truly hand made, Habeeb slaved over that rifle. Count your blessings, better him than you. It is sort of like buying hand made cigars from Latin America. They could be cheapo "bundled" cigars but you still have the satisfaction of knowing some young Latina worked a 12 hour day under a hot galvanized steel roof so that you could have a few moments of relaxation.

Ah, only in America do we have such blessings. Happy 4th.

[Superfly]

Where can i find a un barreled action for a MH ??? I would need the wood to LOL

[loiner1965]

I think the AC and IMA intouched guns are comparable. I have a AC Snider that turned out very well with little (only slight understatement) more than a good cleaning and moderate stock work. This Snider's bore was near perfect. I was able to go to the AC warehouse and pick out my own rifle, but the condition of the bore may have been luck as it was so dirty when I selected it that I was just hoping it was OK. For what it's worth, my "guide" said almost all of the Sniders have good bores. His words were true for me.

The IMA Gahendra was (and is) a challenge, but the difficulty has nothing to do with the importer. Gahendra's are not in that great shape, Francottes I hear are even worse. These rifles will require lots of patience to get them shooting again. They definitely show Nepal home workshop quality in some areas. Some things are pretty good, like the barrel/bore, receiver and breechblock, but many of the screws are very crude and will have to be remade.

I highly recommend two other websites to assist in restoring old Martinis:
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Martini-Henry-Forum
and
http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/loadingforthemartinihenry/index.asp

I just reassembled my project rifle tonight with a new finishing nail firing pin, after 2 attempts with reworked drill bits failed. They were too brittle. I hope to work uo loads in the coming week. My bore slugs .464 with soft lead, but the Lee 405 gr hollow base seems perfect.

my gahendra shoots left and high at 50 yards and is reasonable accurate so far.
not done any real testing as such but so far the lee 405 hb and 15gn trailboss are producing 2 inch groups...i slugged it at .455 but an experienced member from another forum said it was .458.

[Tatume]

Everyone,

Thanks for all the information. Although I still haven't taken the plunge, I'm still giving the idea attention. It's a big project to me, and I don't want to start it until I'm ready.

Take care, Tom

[The Double D]

my gahendra shoots left and high at 50 yards and is reasonable accurate so far.
not done any real testing as such but so far the lee 405 hb and 15gn trailboss are producing 2 inch groups...i slugged it at .455 but an experienced member from another forum said it was .458.

Yes your slug did measure .455 but that was with a direct measurement on an odd number rifling.

When you consider the total diameter, the slug was .458.

[Ed in North Texas]

If I might make a suggestion for you to see a video on the disassembly of a Gahendra Martini..... the link is here :


http://www.downeastgunworks.com/?p=104

Maybe this might help if you do decide to go with one of these guns from IMA or Atlanta Cutlery or even Sportsman's Guide.

In the listing of the cleaned and complete M-H Mark IV, IMA has embedded YouTube videos of the Mark IV rifle disassembly and reloading of the .577-450 cartridge. You will also find other videos on YouTube related to the Martini-Henry.

Here's the IMA link:

http://www.ima-usa.com/british-p-1885-martini-henry-mkiv-long-lever-rifle-w-mk3-sword-bayonet-cleaned-complete.html

Good luck.

[eric_2902]

SOuthern Ohio Gun has original Brit Enfield marked Martinis for $359 right now...just bought one...can't wait. For reloading I'm looking at the Lee die set, the RCBS die for Martini, and reforming 24 gauge shotshell brass...any thoughts on that?

[herbert buckland]

The Lee 577-450 dies size the cases for 458 bullets,not right for the Martini Henry,you can open up the nek on the full lenth sizer or you can get CH 4-D 577-450 dies( I have not yoused these but have been told they are the proper size)The RCBS mould .468 480gr mould for the Martini Henry is a very good desighn and works very well for most Martinis,the A & B Mk IVs will most likly need a .470 or larger bullet for best acuracy CBE makes booth a .468-480 and .470- 480 moulds for the MH ,these are exelent moulds

[Ed in North Texas]

But then I bought one of those untouched martini's. Had to destroy the buttstock to get it off and use a PIPE WRENCH to remove the stock bolt.
I suppose some folks get lucky, but I think my "luck" went sour. The bore is usable. Destroyed one barrel band removing it. Screw was just NOT going to move after soaking for a week in various solvents. Thats the only Martini I bought from IMA, the others came from Canada and other sources. The accessories I bought from them are OK

The barrel band comment just sunk into my thick skull. In the embedded YouTube video on the IMA site the guys are showing how to disassemble the Martini. One guy shows how he uses a small torch to apply heat to the screw. He says that some screws will not yield to soaking alone. It appears his was the voice of experience.

[Ed in North Texas]

SOuthern Ohio Gun has original Brit Enfield marked Martinis for $359 right now...just bought one...can't wait. For reloading I'm looking at the Lee die set, the RCBS die for Martini, and reforming 24 gauge shotshell brass...any thoughts on that?

I hope these are in better shape than the .303 Martini Enfield they were selling a year or so ago. I bought one ($300.00 IIRC), and when it arrived I didn't even bother to clean it - just called for a return authorization. Several parts were obviously "native repair" specials (e.g. rear sight and cocking indicator). There is a YouTube video on reloading the .577-450 (at least one), including forming the brass from the 28 gauge brass shotshell. If you can't find it on YouTube, the IMA website has it.

[The Double D]

SOuthern Ohio Gun has original Brit Enfield marked Martinis for $359 right now...just bought one...can't wait. For reloading I'm looking at the Lee die set, the RCBS die for Martini, and reforming 24 gauge shotshell brass...any thoughts on that?

The SOG Martini are out and out fakes. If they didn't represent them as original British I would just call them replicas. They are not British and are totally misrepresented by SOG

They a very poorly made. I have one and was never able to get it to shoot more than two shots with out something going wrong with it.

I also do not believe these rifle are old, but modern made. Modern manufacturing techniques are evident through out.

My friend you got took...

If you want to be assured of getting a real Martini buy from Atlanta Cutlery or IMA.

[Red River Rick]

Check here for Martini's: http://www.denner.ca/weapons/longguns/index.html

Prices vary, there are few on hand now! Originals, not some BS gun made up in the Kyber Pass.

RRR

[RonE]

I purchase an unmarked untouched MKII M-H from IMA a couple of years ago I had fun cleaning it up and I was pleased with the overall condition. With your first M-H the actual purchase of the rifle is the cheap part. Brass, dies and a mould are expensive. The dies won't work on all presses due to size. However once you are set up it is a load of fun. I am getting ready to make a tribe of plywood Zulus for a camp out later this summer. Nothing quite like sitting around the camp fire enjoying a couple of pints, then spying a Zulu hiding in the bush. You set your pint down, tilt the brim of your pith helmet up and take aim. Once dispatched you return to your still chilled pint and the rudely interrupted conversation. Moments later your mate spys another. The whiteman's burden and all.

As for having a pint and shooting, perhaps a better term might be sitting around drinking a couple of "group tighteners". The White Mans Burden is one of Kiplings better poems:

White Man's Burden

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

xxxxxxxxxx

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch Sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hope to nought.

[Lawnjockey]

Bingo!!!!

[RonE]

"I am getting ready to make a tribe of plywood Zulus for a camp out later this summer."

Please post some pictures of the Zulus and something to determine the size of the targets.

[Boz330]

Here is what we did for one of the Martini shoots, a little more PC and easy to produce. I don't remember the dimensions. Probably 3 ft on the tall ones. The marks designated scoring zones. The log range were steel and you just had to hit them.

Bob

[Lawnjockey]

I don't dare post pics of mine as some may consider them offensive or maybe even too political, you know what I mean?

Bob, nice pics and attire. What is the round sitting on the bench?

[THerbert]

Picked up a Gahendra from AC, and it arrived yesterday. Although incredibly dirty, it appears to be complete. I'll start working on it tonight, and after I determine its true condition, I'll order the reloading supplies for it, or not.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_189064e4eaa3e7eeb2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1892)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_189064e4eaa4bddac8.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1893)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_189064e4eaa561496e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1894)

[Boz330]

I don't dare post pics of mine as some may consider them offensive or maybe even too political, you know what I mean?

Bob, nice pics and attire. What is the round sitting on the bench?

58 cal Snyder. The gentleman in the photo won the 200yd match with that round.

Bob

[Lawnjockey]

A Snyder is definitely on my bucket list. Right now I have a terrible itch for a Smith Carbine. Considering which side used the Smith it would be downright unpatriotic to make plywood targets.