Fold or Twist tail?

[brstevns]

Is it best to twist the tail of the paper or fold it over on a plain base type bullet on paper patching? This would be using a wet patch.

[Reverend Recoil]

I fold the paper at the base of my 9.3mm bullets. I am patching a 0.358 gas check bullet with tracing paper.

[longbow]

So far I am a tail twister. I snip 'em off with side cutters after they dry. I have had no success folding tails on .30 cal. boolits.

It may depend on the paper but I find that the papers I have been using just won't stay folded.

Possibly a boolit stand drilled with holes just larger than the PP'd boolit so they stand on the base would work.

It seems to me 303guy posted photos of folded base patches on .303 boolits so it must be doable but not by me... yet!

Longbow

[bbqncigars]

I just shot ten test boolits today that were pb w/trimmed twisted tails. A PITA, but the damned gun liked them.

[303Guy]

I dry wrap and that makes twisting or folding difficult. To hold the patch down I use diluted paper glue on the trailing corner and around the skirt. This dampens the paper and allows a neat 'roll crimping'. I've tried tail-less patches but the problem is there is nowhere to put the glue so it doesn't get over the boolit sides. It may not matter but in the end I settled for a short overhang.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_pictures002.jpg?t=1294430533http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_BSAMPATCH42GR.jpg?t=1300688567

That's the full length (width?) of the overhanging tail that was recovered. The rest of the patch seems to have been dusted. The tail followed the boolit as a ring.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_BSAM40gr-1.jpg The boolit didn't travel far.

[Reverend Recoil]

After folding the base of each bullet I set them base down in 380/9mm MTM ammo boxes to dry.

[brstevns]

I am very new to Paper patching. I have been twisting then cutting off the tails. With some paper it seems it would be better to fold over to keep the paper from tearing?

[Hardcast416taylor]

I fold over the patch and then push down on the bullet nose to flatten the folded paper base. I then stand the patched bullet upright in a cartridge loading tray to dry.Robert

[docone31]

I twist my tails. I do not twist tight as the flash from sizeing can tear the patch. When dry, I cut half way up from the casting, then the last sizeing flattens the tail and fills the area where the gas check went.

[303Guy]

With some paper it seems it would be better to fold over to keep the paper from tearing? That's what stopped me from twisting. Printer paper and my less than nimble fingers just don't twist tails well. It's a lot harder to use a short tail and get the 'eye' of the patch base to fold or crimp into a nice concentric ring. You can however, wet wrap, let dry, then fold the tail or even dry twist the tail - with dry twisting a little wetting after twisting allows for flattening. With dry folding, I'm not sure that it matters if the base does not lie flat. In any case, try folding with a twisting motion if you want to dry fold. The overhang can be long enough to fully cover the base.

[brstevns]

That's what stopped me from twisting. Printer paper and my less than nimble fingers just don't twist tails well. It's a lot harder to use a short tail and get the 'eye' of the patch base to fold or crimp into a nice concentric ring. You can however, wet wrap, let dry, then fold the tail or even dry twist the tail - with dry twisting a little wetting after twisting allows for flattening. With dry folding, I'm not sure that it matters if the base does not lie flat. In any case, try folding with a twisting motion if you want to dry fold. The overhang can be long enough to fully cover the base.

Thanks I will give it a try and see how I do.

[6.5 mike]

I fold most all the boolits I wrap, except 22s. I cut my patchs just wide enough to allow the fold to overlap at the center in five or six segments depending on diameter. So far it's worked on 6.5, 7mm, 30/31, 8mm/32, 35, & 45 for rifles. I'm waiting on the 25 cal g/b to see if it will still work on them. If not back to twisting tails. After patching (wet) I set them in the trays everone tosses base down, if they try to unwrap I set another loaded tray on top, flattens them right out.

[pdawg_shooter]

I trim the flashing from sizing down off with a sharp exaco knife. One advantage with GC bullets is no flash to mess with.

[brstevns]

I trim the flashing from sizing down off with a sharp exaco knife. One advantage with GC bullets is no flash to mess with.

Does leaving the flashing on the base seem to hurt anything?

[pdawg_shooter]

Does leaving the flashing on the base seem to hurt anything?

Yep, cuts the paper when you twist the tail. out side of that no problem.

[brstevns]

Yep, cuts the paper when you twist the tail. out side of that no problem.

Does flashing take place when sizing from .310 to .304 with a Gas check design?

[pdawg_shooter]

Does flashing take place when sizing from .310 to .304 with a Gas check design?

When sizing bullets with a GC shank all the flashing is on the lower drive band and does not mater a bit. I size .311 down to .3015 on all my 30cals and they are all GC design. They work fine just as they come out of the sizer.

[firefly1957]

It depends on how much paper you have more than anything? if to much to fold then twist and snip.

[offshore44]

I fold mine...wet or dry wrapped. I start where the tail of the patch is, and roll the patched bullet on the patching board with my finger on the side edge of the base. This puts a ruffle on the patch overhang that looks a lot like the inside of corrugated board insides. Then I start at the tail again and fold the patch over the base. This makes for an even fold. The low spots fold under the high spots. If I have put the patch on in the right place, there is no hole in the middle where the patch ends meet. Put the bullet on the bench, base down, and push on the nose to flatten the base out. Seems to work just fine so far.

[brstevns]

I fold mine...wet or dry wrapped. I start where the tail of the patch is, and roll the patched bullet on the patching board with my finger on the side edge of the base. This puts a ruffle on the patch overhang that looks a lot like the inside of corrugated board insides. Then I start at the tail again and fold the patch over the base. This makes for an even fold. The low spots fold under the high spots. If I have put the patch on in the right place, there is no hole in the middle where the patch ends meet. Put the bullet on the bench, base down, and push on the nose to flatten the base out. Seems to work just fine so far.

Never tried that before I will have to give it a try.

[303Guy]

I fold mine...wet or dry wrapped. I start where the tail of the patch is, and roll the patched bullet on the patching board with my finger on the side edge of the base.Exactly how I do mine. Difference being only in the length of the overhang. With a short overhang the result is as you've seen in my pics. Not sure there's a problem with leaving such a large eye or not. My pig gun shows not but then maybe it's not that sensitive because of the condition of the bore.

If I could keep the patch on with only a hint of overhang I would go that route but dry wrapping requires glue under the trailing corner and glue must not get into the shank area - I think. Not unevenly anyway.

[brstevns]

I would have always thought that the patch needed to cover the bullet base to keep the patch from staying in the bore and having the bullet acting like a core of a J word bullet. I also thought by having the base of the bullet covered the Patch acts like a Gas Check?

[303Guy]

Well, I'm having trouble getting even the small ring of the patch base away from the boolit before it travels too far. As it is it's staying on something like two feet before it hits the catch medium then it stays on until it stops. That may be due to my use of wheat bran filler. It also happens when I use puffed cottonwool (I don't have any dacron). Maybe no-one has noticed just how long the tail remains attached to the boolit because no-one actually uses a test tube like I do. Does the gas check have to actually cover the centre of the base? Perhaps I'm getting the gas check effect anyway. I'm pretty sure the wheat bran forms a pretty reasonable gas check too.

[brstevns]

Well, I'm having trouble getting even the small ring of the patch base away from the boolit before it travels too far. As it is it's staying on something like two feet before it hits the catch medium then it stays on until it stops. That may be due to my use of wheat bran filler. It also happens when I use puffed cottonwool (I don't have any dacron). Maybe no-one has noticed just how long the tail remains attached to the boolit because no-one actually uses a test tube like I do. Does the gas check have to actually cover the centre of the base? Perhaps I'm getting the gas check effect anyway. I'm pretty sure the wheat bran forms a pretty reasonable gas check too.

Using the filler I would think is like using a gas check. I was just wondering if you ever had one leave the Paper Patch in the barrel?
Have you tried using grits for a filler that is what I use.

[303Guy]

Have you tried using grits for a filler that is what I use. I have. It formed a wad that remained stuck to the boolit base right into the test tube catch medium (sand). I can't find the pic - it must be somewhere on my PC.

I found that grits raised the pressure quite a bit which could be desireable at lower loadings.

[brstevns]

I have. It formed a wad that remained stuck to the boolit base right into the test tube catch medium (sand). I can't find the pic - it must be somewhere on my PC.

I found that grits raised the pressure quite a bit which could be desireable at lower loadings.

Lower loadings is what I have used it for.

[303Guy]

I had forgotten about grits. I tried my standard load of 30grs 4350 under a 183 gr boolit and found it did not burn properly so I upped the charge. Grits would solve that problem!

[brstevns]

Have you used 4350 with a 220 gr bullet? I am looking for a load.

[303Guy]

Have you used 4350 with a 220 gr bullet? I am looking for a load.Yes I have. I'll have to look through my records and let you know.

[brstevns]

Yes I have. I'll have to look through my records and let you know.

Thanks looking forward to hearing about it.

[windrider919]

Folded or twisted have the same accuracy as far as MY testing showed.

The only difference and the reason I fold is because in straight walled cases I found a 'wad' of 0.040 PE behind the bullet gave better accuracy, especially with gas check bullets WITHOUT the gas check. And a wad would not work behind a twisted tail, it would cock on it.

Fillers again...I just finished a long diatribe on that on the 458 Mag PP thread.

[docone31]

I do my twisted tail to also act as a "wad".
I twist the tail, and do a final push thru size. That compresses the tail mass into a wad.
That works for me.

[barrabruce]

Iv'e tried both ways.
With harder alloys 18bhn roughly don't seem to matter much.

With softer stuff and thicker paper if I twist and bash through my final size die.
I get uneven upset of the base when the patch is cut off.
Sharp edges that are no longer gas check size but sizer size.

Can't be good for accurary with a wonky base!!!!

Docone do you leave a lot of tail on yours??
When I do that I get a gas check type plug of paper on the sized boolit but a thin thin feather of paper to one side that may or not ripp the pluggy bit if the pusher/whacker rod is extracted.

Maybe I'm too rough!!!

Barra

[303Guy]

brstevns
I've just realized that I didn't let you know.:oops: I did look but have forgotten what I found. I'll look again! My apologies.

I've found that with softer alloys the nub of a twisted and cut off tail forms an uneven indentation in the boolit base. I seem to remember finding this on fired boolits. I cirtainly do get an impression from my short overhang crimped tails. That's why I try to make my patch tails as symmetrical as I possibly can or even eliminate the tail altogether.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-875F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/TWO-GROOVEBOOLIT.jpg

This is my objective.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/pictures.jpg

The patch is supposed to 'lock' into the tiny rebate visible in the first pic on the L/H boolit.

The ones I'll be using in the postal competition will be more like this.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN011.jpg

That's because I'm still using glue and I don't want glue on the sides of the patch.

[brstevns]

brstevns
I've just realized that I didn't let you know.:oops: I did look but have forgotten what I found. I'll look again! My apologies.

I've found that with softer alloys the nub of a twisted and cut off tail forms an uneven indentation in the boolit base. I seem to remember finding this on fired boolits. I cirtainly do get an impression from my short overhang crimped tails. That's why I try to make my patch tails as symmetrical as I possibly can or even eliminate the tail altogether.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-875F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/TWO-GROOVEBOOLIT.jpg

This is my objective.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/pictures.jpg

The patch is supposed to 'lock' into the tiny rebate visible in the first pic on the L/H boolit.

The ones I'll be using in the postal competition will be more like this.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN011.jpg

That's because I'm still using glue and I don't want glue on the sides of the patch.

No problem, my mind is not want it use to be either. I like the looks of your bullet base, not sure if I can do that. Going to see how folding works for me.

[geargnasher]

303Guy, I'm mad for that patch printout you have! Fantastic. Did you write that in CadKey?

Gear

[303Guy]

I drew it up using AutoCad. I'm still trying to figure out how to describe my method (I am having trouble concentrating, being ill as I am). Basically the arcs have common centres and the arc segments are the circumferences of the nose and base of the boolit as measured over one wrap of patch. By placing the three patches of each row on the same arc, cutting out becomes easy. I make each row of three patches as a block.