Who has a gun that just won't shoot?

[superior]

Howdy. How many of you own a rifle that just WILL NOT shoot? I recently picked up a Lee Enfield no5 mk1 jungle carbine in 303 Brit. I've tried the Lee 312-185, the lyman 314299, and the Lee 312-160, all with no success. The thing keyholes at 30 yards, no matter what I try! My other Enfield (no1 mk3) shoots just fine. I have a way oversized bore in the no5, and I'm afraid that even if I get a FAT mold, I'll run into other problems such as needing custom dies and so forth. I've given up on this rifle. I've relegated myself to just occasionally picking it up and playing with the cool adjustable peep sights it has. Besides, someone had replaced the battle wood with a fancy Montecarlo style sporter stock. The rest of the rifle is a genuine Fazakerly no 5, complete with the lightning cuts, hollowed out bolt handle, and muzzle cone flash hider. I just can't help but feel like the rifle is going to waste. Am I the only one who is living with this inner conflict???:roll:

[felix]

I just can't help but feel like the rifle is going to waste.

You answered your own question with the above sentence. The majority of us boolit shooters customize dies and molds in lieu of modifying guns as the primary hobby. The remainder of us typically obtain guns that are commensurate to common place dies and molds. A rare few of us customize guns and everything else that goes with them. Another few of us sell guns and equipment readily, and, in fact, some care less and only want to do commerce on our board. In my opinion, those folks are worse than the politicians on our board.

Maybe you should pick one of the classes described.

... felix

[Grapeshot]

Howdy. How many of you own a rifle that just WILL NOT shoot? I recently picked up a Lee Enfield no5 mk1 jungle carbine in 303 Brit. I've tried the Lee 312-185, the lyman 314299, and the Lee 312-160, all with no success. The thing keyholes at 30 yards, no matter what I try! My other Enfield (no1 mk3) shoots just fine. I have a way oversized bore in the no5, and I'm afraid that even if I get a FAT mold, I'll run into other problems such as needing custom dies and so forth. I've given up on this rifle. I've relegated myself to just occasionally picking it up and playing with the cool adjustable peep sights it has. Besides, someone had replaced the battle wood with a fancy Montecarlo style sporter stock. The rest of the rifle is a genuine Fazakerly no 5, complete with the lightning cuts, hollowed out bolt handle, and muzzle cone flash hider. I just can't help but feel like the rifle is going to waste. Am I the only one who is living with this inner conflict???:roll:

Not to be a S/A but if you have slugged the barrel and gotten the groove to groove dimention and do not want to go the custom mold route, then I venture to suggest that you try papper patching the cast bullets you have.

Using 25% rag onion skin paper, cut the paper to a length that will just wrap around the UNLUBED bullet twice. Pi (3.14) times the diameter times two will give you the length of the paper strip. cut into strips that will go from just ahead of the first driving band to about a half inch past the heel of the bullet. Cut the ends at a 30 degree angle, parralell, so that they will butt against each other when you wrap it around the bullet. Wet the patch and roll the patch around the bullet, twist the excess into a tail and let dry. The patch will be rather hard when dry. Cut the tail off with either a toe nail clipper or small diagonal cutter. Smear a small amount of soft bullet lube on the patch prior to loading in the case with an appropriate amount of powder and see if your accuracy improves.

The guys over at the smokeless paper patched forum here at Cast Boolits will give you more help on this process.

[docone31]

If you take that Lee 185gn mold, and cast it, then size it to .308, and wrap twice with lined notebook paper, then smear a tad of JPW over the patch, you might not be thinking that rifle is going to waste.
That rifle, you probably need a minimum of .317 in the bore.
And yes, they are great shooters once sized.

[Maven]

superior, I suspect all the molds you mentioned are casting too small for your rifle. All is not lost, however, as their droppings, as already mentioned, can be paper patched. Then too, you may want to look at a "fat" design that Jim Allison offers: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-adbe&p=cst%20bullet%20engineering Also, why not PM Jeff in NZ and pick his brains about the Enfield #5. Lastly, there are several people on this site who can easily open up your seating die and even create a lube sizer die to your specifications if need be. Buckshot comes immediately to mind.

[superior]

You answered your own question with the above sentence. The majority of us boolit shooters customize dies and molds in lieu of modifying guns as the primary hobby. The remainder of us typically obtain guns that are commensurate to common place dies and molds. A rare few of us customize guns and everything else that goes with them. Another few of us sell guns and equipment readily, and, in fact, some care less and only want to do commerce on our board. In my opinion, those folks are worse than the politicians on our board.

Maybe you should pick one of the classes described.

... felix

So far, I've been plain lucky when it comes to boolit casting. I was thrilled, that after 20+ years of handloading, I was rewarded with the joys of casting my own. I cast for a Glock23. Marlin1895g, Ruger Blackhawk45Colt, Sks paratrooper, and the 2 enfields.
I'm as happy as can be with all but the one. I do like to tinker and experiment, so I'm not quick to sell the gun. I would consider myself to be in the first category you mentioned. I truly value the rifle and prefer to leave it as unaltered as possible, while seeing the need to modify loading equipment to suit the needs of the weapon. I suppose I should do more research on the possible pitfalls I may encounter when customizing dies etc. And, I can't think of a better forum for accomplishing that goal, than right here.
I just wondered if there were others like me ( afraid of failure after much investment of time and money) who are currently looking at a "mantle piece", but daydreaming of a tack-driving piece of history that brings pride to the owner in every facet of it's ownership.

[3006guns]

ME! I have two Enfields, a No.1 MKIII* and a No.4 rifle that my son and I have been playing with for two days. Both have decent barrels (.3135 and .3145) but are lucky to stay on paper at 100yds, either with cast or milsurp. The No.4 is especially nice looking but won't shoot for sour apples. Both have been pulled apart, checked for shims, bearing surfaces, screws tightened and muzzle crowns examined. No go. The word "pattern" is too good for what we're getting and both of us are at least reasonably good shots.

We reduced the distance to 60yds. and the No.1 MKIII will do about eight inches....the No.4 about seven inches with vertical stringing.

It's really strange as I've owned several Enfields over the years that had at least acceptable accuracy. These two are just fighting us and I'm just about at the point of trying glass bedding before I give up.

[superior]

I think paper patching is worth a try.... Especially if it doesn't require purchasing more equipment. I would get even more enjoyment and satisfaction from paper patching that from casting alone! Like I said, I do like to tnker, and sure would be nice to drop some jaws at the range with homemade "roll ur owns"

[wallenba]

I tried everything to get my No. 1 Mark III to shoot. Finally I ordered a barrel from Numrich and got real lucky with a .311 groove. My old one slugged almost .317, so anything I got from Numrich was likely to be better.

[felix]

You have a good attitude, Superior, and you will have success with it and with the gun. ... felix

[Artful]

When I get a rifle I always try factory J-word ammo first and see how it does - that gives me a base line to see where stuff goes - I think if you have an over size bore I'd see what diameter the fired cases are at the mouth and try to find some either paperpatched or cast about 0.001 smaller than that measurement. You'd be surprised what you find on some rifles.

[enfield]

I have over a dozen LE's and the all shoot quite well, some inch groups and some might be in the 4-5 inch range . only my Lee Metford does the keyhole thing and that i think is because it won't stabilize the 314299 ( it will shoot a lyman 115gr o.k ). any others that didn't shoot had visibly smooth barrels and they were converted to other calibers.

[Bullshop]

I once had an SMLE that acted like that. When I slugged the bore found out it had a .318" groove diameter.
My most recent similar experience was with a Mauser carbine in 7x57. It tumbled everything I fired in it including factory jacketed ammo. When I slugged it I found it had a tapering groove diameter of .293" to .291" from breach to muzzle.
In both cases using groove diameter boolits gave acceptable accuracy.

[462]

I'm in Felix's first category. Both my Enfields have .316" grooves. Rather than not ever casting for them, I waited till the right mould came along -- in their case a second-hand Fattest Thirty group buy -- then had Buckshot make a .318" Lyman-clone sizer die and The Perfessor a .318" hollow cavity top punch. Now, I have two more rifles that are boolit shooters. It took about two-years, but was well worth the wait.

[Mk42gunner]

For you guys not afraid to tinker with a rifle, Jeff in NZ has an article that is stickied at the top of this section, here's the link if I did it right http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=49003

I plan to read the whole thread again for ideas, since I finally got a rear sight base for my 2A1 Enfield.

Robert

[JeffinNZ]

Something to be very aware of with the old war horse is bore size and not just groove or throat. Last evening "Tertle" came around with a newly acquired Longbranch No4 Mk1*. Crisp, clean 2 groove barrel and a tidy looking shooter. To get an idea of the internal dims I pulled a selection of my .303 bore riding bullets and slipped the noses into the muzzle. The bullets all cast at .304-.305 on the nose and all of them rattled in the bore! We slugged the muzzle for a preliminary measure up and lead came back at .3065/.3165.

There is no way one of my bore riders is ever going to shoot in this barrel as there is no nose support for the bullet. The best options for "Tertle's" new No4 will be a full length bearing bullet like a fat Loverin or to size down the 8mm bullet I have.

[Bob Krack]

Jeff's answer and article are good.

Also----

"303guy" din't get his handle by concentrating his research and energies on the .17HMR! :mrgreen:


Bob

[Char-Gar]

It's war! Man vs. a soulless machine. Will you enforce you will on that rifle or let the rifle win the day? Never say die, experiment, work, think, plot and make that sucker bow to your superior mind.

I might sell a recalcitrance rifle, but not until I have won the battle!! Come on..grit your teeth, hitch up your pants and win!!!

[PAT303]

Jeff,I have tried sized down 8mm boolits in my 303's and it works,the Lyman 8mm loverin boolit sized to .317 shoots very well in the large bore No.4's that are quite commonly found these days. Pat

[303Guy]

No no no! You are being misled! That rifle is distinctly dangerous to shoot with and should be sent to me with immediate effect for proper disposal!:bigsmyl2:

Well, OK then, I'll admit it - I want to have a go with it!:mrgreen:

I believe there is no such thing as a Lee Enfield that won't shoot. It might be a bit tricky and challenging though. But shoot it will! :Fire:
Besides, who wants it to be so easy - cause then any body could do it.;)

I second the paper patching suggestion. That'll make a rusted sewer pipe barrel shoot.

[superior]

I'm almost ready to give the paper patch a try,however, my concern is modifying dies to accomplish boolit seating with the correct alignment. Previously I had problems after using a
.314 Lee push-through to crimp on checks. The case necks were not large enough to facilitate easy seating. This resulted in "bent" looking rounds. (the checks were seated squarely)
I need to benefit from some experienced loaders on the subject of the most cost and time efficient ways to rectifiy this condition. Will this require a larger expanding ball for the sizing die, for example? I would really like a simple remedy, if not a most often used approach to it. I really appreciate the replies I get here. I'm always able to walk away with info I can use.
Thanks!

[JesterGrin_1]

You should look into the Lyman M Die. It is designed to enlarge and bell the case mouth to enable one to use a cast BOOLIT. :)

[atr]

I did have an old Mauser that shot the same as yours....keyholeing...very wide spreads....in short a very poor barrel....I finally solved the problem by replacing the barrel.....I got tired of screwing around with various diameters of boolits, etc.etc. I do like to tinker with my rifles,,,but I like to shoot more. A new barrel was the quickest way to get back to shooting

[1Shirt]

Had a mauser that would keyhole everything at 25 yds. Had it recrowned and it then shot just about every thing into under 3" at 100.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[superior]

Had a mauser that would keyhole everything at 25 yds. Had it recrowned and it then shot just about every thing into under 3" at 100.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

That would truly be an effective measure, if required. I just wonder...How difficult will it be to re-crown the Jungle Carbine BBL with it's integral conical flash suppressor ??:killingpc

[PAT303]

I'm going to shoot my M17 actioned 25/303 today,so far it has keyholed every Lyman 257418 I've shot in it. Pat

[303Guy]

Aah - the wonders of the pull-through! Cotton cord or something which collects dust and oils and turns the muzzle into a trumpet!

I have and old cavalry carbine which was apparently used as a target rifle. It's an 1896 so it could have fired hundreds of thousands of cordite ammo. The end result is an oversize bore that tapers down to a point some 100mm back from the muzzle then opens up slightly. A paper patched boolit seats snuggly into un unsized neck and a third of the boolit rides in the rifling. It's very accurate!

In fact, I'm looking for such a worn barrel to do my Pig Gun project with (to replace the rust enlarged bore it now has with a cordite enlarged bore instead).

[303Guy]

I've just discovered that I have a SMLE barreled MLE with an sharp bore after a little fire-lapping that has a .307 bore![smilie=w:

Am I happy? You bet! This will make a perfect paper patcher or cast booliter!:bigsmyl2:
The bore is parallel to the muzzle.:-D

I'm going to start work on that one pretty soon! Now to go make a mould .....

:lol: Ha ha! I don't need to make a mould. I just found one that fits perfectly! With some castings I made yesterday. (Paper patch that is, I'll still have to make a plain cast boolit mould for it - if I want to shoot plain cast).

[Tertle]

No no no! You are being misled! That rifle is distinctly dangerous to shoot with and should be sent to me with immediate effect for proper disposal!:bigsmyl2:

Well, OK then, I'll admit it - I want to have a go with it!:mrgreen:

I believe there is no such thing as a Lee Enfield that won't shoot. It might be a bit tricky and challenging though. But shoot it will! :Fire:
Besides, who wants it to be so easy - cause then any body could do it.;)

I second the paper patching suggestion. That'll make a rusted sewer pipe barrel shoot.

Gotta Love that attitude and couldn't agree more:)

Owww might have a couple more to slug jeff!!! Could be interesting to see just how big a spread there is

[nanuk]

I had an old Mannlicher that had a hole in the chamber..... I don't think it would shoot

[dbldblu]

I have an 1891 Mosin that looks like it was drug through every trench of WWI. I like it; it truly has character. There is so little rifling left that it won't shoot cast at all. Even with 10 grains of unique accuracy is terrible. It does still group ok with jacketed. It doesn't get shot much.

[Simonpie]

The thing keyholes at 30 yards, no matter what I try! Am I the only one who is living with this inner conflict???:roll:

Emotionally, I've been there for sure. A 20% reduction in bullet weight makes my trapdoor goes from 5 MOA to about 30 MOA. With the light bullets I can hear them as they spin off into oblivion. I'm finally where I have a good basic load and can work on changes that cause a 1/2" and not 2 feet of difference. You'll get there.

[303Guy]

I have a rusted out Lee Enfield barrel (not the pig gun although that's pretty rusted out too) that I was going to rebore to 375. But I started out just playing around with this thing after having fire-lapped all the rust out so as not to damage the boring tool. Anyways, with paper patched very heavy (245gr I think) boolits and light loads of 4227, it engafed the rifling (what was left of it) and the boolits travelled nose first. The patched boolits entered and engaged the 'rifling' over half their length. (I use the term 'rifling' loosely!) I did remove the last bit of the barrel though with the intension of trimming it down further after reboring). Paper patching might make anything with a trace of rifling shoot providing that enough velocity or pressure is developed to confetti the patch.

[Euan]

Something to be very aware of with the old war horse is bore size and not just groove or throat. Last evening "Tertle" came around with a newly acquired Longbranch No4 Mk1*. Crisp, clean 2 groove barrel and a tidy looking shooter. To get an idea of the internal dims I pulled a selection of my .303 bore riding bullets and slipped the noses into the muzzle. The bullets all cast at .304-.305 on the nose and all of them rattled in the bore! We slugged the muzzle for a preliminary measure up and lead came back at .3065/.3165.

There is no way one of my bore riders is ever going to shoot in this barrel as there is no nose support for the bullet. The best options for "Tertle's" new No4 will be a full length bearing bullet like a fat Loverin or to size down the 8mm bullet I have.

Jeff,
I have a mold that may be usefull in tertle's No4. I have not used it yet, It's a NOE 316/165 RN. I got it because I thought it might go ok in my Ruger No3 in 303 as a hunting boolit. I can send it up if want to try it.
Cheers Euan.