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View Full Version : Range Resuts of My First Attempts at 3000+fps PPCB



CJR
06-04-2011, 01:05 PM
Yesterday was a very good day at the range! I got a chance to try my first 3000+fps loads in my 308Win. Load was a 150gr (1 grain lot) LBT LFN PPCB (15BHN), CB initially sprayed with Teflon dry film spray and sized to 0.301"D, PP(Office Depot 100% cotton Vellum, 0.0025" thick) with 50% mixture of wood glue+water with leading edge of PP slightly in front of where ogive starts, PPCB dried, PP tails clipped, PPCB sprayed again with Teflon dry spray, PPCB dried, PPCB slight coated with LBT Blue lube, then PPCB final sized to 0.308"D. Loads assembled with OAL to allow rifle to do final seating of PPCB with PP against rifle's chamber forcing cone. Powder charge was 50 gr. of W748 ( a Lyman jacketed bullet load). Pressure had to be close to 50,000psi according to the manual. All round extractions were normal and primers looked normal, but I will mike the case heads to check for excessive pressure.

I started shooting my 175 gr, Lyman 311291 PPCB loads with 50 gr. and then 51 gr. of W760 and they were grouping nicely with many rounds touching at 100 yards. Then I popped in the 150 gr LBT LFN PPCB and started on a new target. My brother was spotting for me, and after the first shot he didn't see any thing on the target? After about 4 more shots, both of us couldn't see anything on the target. So I walked the 100 yds. to see the target. It appeared that in the well-used backing board there were new holes, at about 4 inches low, with about a 3"x3" group. I need a higher powered spotting scope. To see if those were really my loads, I used a 4" high "Kentucky Windage Correction" hold and started shooting again. This time I started getting a group form that was centered on the target. I kept brushing the barrel after every shot and sometimes would get a little resistance in one part of the barrel but it would clean up with one or two passes of dry brushing. Other times, I got no felt barrel resistance to the dry brushing. The PP must have been shredding a little in the barrel. Anyway, I continued shooting and though my group size never exceeded 3"x3", I did get 3 rounds touching at 100 yds.! Those 3 rounds touching really made my day! Also, I noticed a puff of white smoke about 6 or 7 feet in front of the muzzle which indicated perfect PP disintegration. The barrel was allowed to cool between shots. The surprising thing I noticed was that the barrel was not getting too hot with this max. load?

When the NRA was developing 3000+fps for the 300 Win Mag loads, they had their groups mysteriously open up to 6" at 100 yds. They concluded the PPCB needed more lube to survive and make it to the muzzle. So they coated the PPCB with more lube and all was well again. So, I will try to coat my 3000+fps PPCB loads with a little more lube and maybe look at a different wood glue to use. This is very simple tweaking for 3000+fps loads acting in a 50,000psi environment. Hopefully I can improve load consistency. With what I have now, I could comfortably use this load to take a deer up to a 100 yards.

At home I solvent cleaned the barrel to see what I had. No leading whatsoever, but I did get patches covered with a black substance that was either carbon residue or graphite which is typically used to coat powder granules. I am very pleased with this first attempt at 3000+fps! Back to the loading bench! Life is good!!

Best regards,

CJR

Canuck Bob
06-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Great report, 3000+ fps with technically superior homemade cast bullets with a paper jacket! You deserve a good day.

Do you use the Teflon for mainly sizing or barrel lubing?

By the way up here 3X3 is minute of moose for a long way.

Your final sizing is 308, is this something your gun prefers? This whole sizing issue is daunting. There are so many successful applications. However 3000 fps has to be pushing things pretty hard.

Congratulations on not having 2 days work cleaning out lead!!!

CJR
06-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Canuck Bob,

A PPCB must survive the trip in barrel to the muzzle without stripping or shredding. If the PPCB strips or shreds in the barrel, then severe leading & poor accuracy occurs. Ask me how I know? Once the PPCB exits the muzzle, the PP MUST come off/disintegrate completely. If any of the PP clings to the CB on its way to the target, then poor accuracy results. Slower speed PPCB may not have a high enough bullet RPM or aerodynamic forces to strip the PP off the CB.

Here's how my PPCB technique evolved. I started spraying my CB with dry film Teflon spray so that I could size them down to 0.301"D for my 308Win. I didn't clean the Teflon off and then wrapped the CB with a 50% water+ wood glue wetted PP (Veral Smith's tip to me). Wood glue doesn't stick to a Teflon coated CB. I first started sizing the PPCB to 0.3095"D and got mediocre results. I then re-read the NRA's work on PPCB and Paul Matthews book, The Paper Jacket. They both just wiped off the sizing lube after sizing the CB. They did not chemically or detergent clean the bare CB. So apparently, my PP is very tough and surviving its barrel trip. Likewise, on muzzle exit my PP is coming off cleanly because my Teflon coating, used for CB sizing, is preventing the glue, in the PP, from sticking to the CB.

Why I now size to 0.308"D for my 308 Win. The NRA indicated in more than one instance and near the end of their PPCB work, the need to size the PPCB to 0.308"D for 308 & 30/06. This was because the entrance diameter of the chamber's forcing cone was 0.310"D or in some cases 0.309"D and the PP got cut entering the forcing cone. When the PPCB was sized to 0.308"D, the NRA found that the PP was not cut at the entrance to the chamber's forcing cone and accuracy resulted with no leading. Also, I've found that a sized PPCB will grow in diameter a little, i.e. ~ 0.001", in diameter after a couple of days. So if final sized to 0.3095"D, after a couple of days it could be larger than the entrance diameter of the chamber's forcing cone. Hence PP cutting and poor accuracy. Also, I'm operating at about 50,000 psi pressure. So once my uncut PP starts to enter the rifling, the 50,000 psi pressure very adequately swages the PPCB to fit my groove diameter. So instead of initially sizing my PPCB to groove diameter before assembling a round, the resultant pressure after firing swages the PPCB to groove diameter as it begins its barrel trip. This works for my hi-vel PPCB loads.

When I first started PPCB, I got into the habit at the range to dry brush after every round. If I got an inconsistent resistance to dry brushing somewhere in the barrel, I concluded my PP was failing in the barrel. When I got consistent dry brushing resistance for the whole barrel length, my accuracy improved and leading stopped. Granted this is a subjective technique, but it worked for me.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

CJR

Canuck Bob
06-04-2011, 04:30 PM
Amazing, now the relationship of pressure to cast shooting is sinking in. I gapped that you would be up in the 50K range. That certainly makes all aspects very critical for accuracy.

Thanks for taking such time to answer my questions. It really helped me a bunch. I'm wrestling with a medical situation so I have maybe too much time to study on these forums, lol!

Bob

Nrut
06-04-2011, 09:58 PM
CJR,
Thanks for the NRA findings about sizing your PP boolits smaller..
I have been having problems with three different rifles leaving paper rings on the case mouth after firing and the accuracy is terrible..
I figured the my case necks were to short for the chamber and that the boolit was extruding to fill the gap before they move into the throat...
Only way to solve that problem would be to use longer brass reformed to fit my chamber..
A pain to say the least..
Just maybe my PP boolits are sized to large..
I will size smaller for the next range session and see if that works..
Thanks again..
And good work!

CJR
06-07-2011, 09:12 AM
Some follow-up info. I measured my hi-vel case heads for excessive expansion. All case head expansions were normal. Likewise, while PP more 30 cal. CB I noticed I had mixed in a few other types of paper, from earlier paper trials, with my 100% cotton Vellum PP. I definitely need new glasses. Back to the reloading bench to load more PPCB. Life is good!

Best regards,

CJR

docone31
06-07-2011, 09:45 AM
I also have found paper patching gives me cases that last a long time. In my 30-06 for example, I use full tilt loads of 4895 and have not had to trim the cases.
A long time ago, I got a box of jacketeds. They were Herters, and the size was .309. Well, I tried them. I had worried that excessive pressure would result. The reality of those loads was less felt recoil. When I started patching, my final size was .309. It worked right out of the gate. As I fired more, and the barrels got smoother and smoother, I got more evidence of confetti at the muzzle. Now, each shot gives confetti. Any rust and it is smoothed down.
I use wax when I store my rifles.
It all came together.

CJR
06-07-2011, 02:13 PM
Docone31,

I've been using your cigarette roller trick and Paul Matthews paper cutter trick to really crank out lots of PPCB. Thanks a million for that trick and all the help you, Padawg, and others have offered to me in the past. That help got me up to speed very quickly.

Best regards,

CJR