.223 1:8 Twist for cast???

[MaxJon]

Hi all just wondering if 1:8 twist in .223 will be too fast?? Would really like to try it out! Anyone suggest a mould to try?
Thanks all!
BB03

[Moonie]

It depends on what you are wanting to do. That fast a twist may limit the speed you can push cast boolits but won't keep you from using them.

There are a number of good molds to choose from, starting with the Bator for cheap and some of the custom molds that aren't but would probably be easier to use.

[MaxJon]

Thinkin I may get the 308 barrel 1-13T, may be more cast friendly and easier to load for

[Larry Gibson]

Thinkin I may get the 308 barrel 1-13T, may be more cast friendly and easier to load for

Think more along the lines of 1-14" twist. My .308 Palma rifle handles cast bullets extremely well. I push the 311466 to 2600 fps with 1.5 moa consistent accuracy to 300 yards (farthest tested so far.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

I have an Obermeyer barreled AR in 6x45 that has a 1/8 twist. Thus far it's a 1600fps shooter. Oh I can get them faster, just can't hit anything at higher speeds. Even at 1600fps its a 1.4" shooter. Very good with heavy for caliber jacketed bullets though.

[MaxJon]

Think more along the lines of 1-14" twist. My .308 Palma rifle handles cast bullets extremely well. I push the 311466 to 2600 fps with 1.5 moa consistent accuracy to 300 yards (farthest tested so far.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry, the barrel conversion kit I am thinking of only comes in 13 twist. One inch couldn't make a world of difference could it? Love your work, what alloy are you using, and what is hardness ? 2600 thats awesome!! Funny looking boolit that, do you lube the 2 top grooves above the tapered portion? I might get one of those moulds, I have the RCBS 82014, Lee 90362 so far in my collection.

[Nobade]

I used to have a 1:8 AR15, and after a lot of work got it to shoot extremely well with RCBS 55gr. at 1800 fps. (6.0gr. Green Dot) anything faster would start to look like shotgun patterns. It can be done, but takes a lot of experimenting to get everything right.

[bhn22]

If you're on a budget, you may be able to locate an early M16 barrel, IIRC, they were around 1:14. Most guys don't like using them for jacketed loads because they prefer the heavier bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry, the barrel conversion kit I am thinking of only comes in 13 twist. One inch couldn't make a world of difference could it? Love your work, what alloy are you using, and what is hardness ? 2600 thats awesome!! Funny looking boolit that, do you lube the 2 top grooves above the tapered portion? I might get one of those moulds, I have the RCBS 82014, Lee 90362 so far in my collection.

Could 1" make a difference? Depends on how fast you want to push cast bullets. I also suggest getting the barrel as long as you can, mine is 27.5". Use a correct designed cast bullet and use a slow burning powder that gives consistent ignition.

I size the 311466 down to .300 to the second driving band to fit the throat so the GC is at the base of the case neck. The alloy is 80/20 linotype/lead AC'd. Lee BHN reads 18. I size them .311, use Javelina lube and Hornady GCs or my own made of .014 brass stock. I use AA4350 powder.

Sorry, I don't know what the product numbers of those moulds mean as I use the mould design name. Probably my bad but mentally I can picture a mould by name rather than by a lot of different product numbers. The name means something. Such as the RCBS 30-150-FN; 30 being the caliber, 150 being the weight and FN being the nose shape. A number such as "8014" means nothing to me. I could look it up but that gets tiresome after looking up so many numbers. Could you give me the mould names?

Larry Gibson

[MaxJon]

Could 1" make a difference? Depends on how fast you want to push cast bullets. I also suggest getting the barrel as long as you can, mine is 27.5". Use a correct designed cast bullet and use a slow burning powder that gives consistent ignition.

I size the 311466 down to .300 to the second driving band to fit the throat so the GC is at the base of the case neck. The alloy is 80/20 linotype/lead AC'd. Lee BHN reads 18. I size them .311, use Javelina lube and Hornady GCs or my own made of .014 brass stock. I use AA4350 powder.

Sorry, I don't know what the product numbers of those moulds mean as I use the mould design name. Probably my bad but mentally I can picture a mould by name rather than by a lot of different product numbers. The name means something. Such as the RCBS 30-150-FN; 30 being the caliber, 150 being the weight and FN being the nose shape. A number such as "8014" means nothing to me. I could look it up but that gets tiresome after looking up so many numbers. Could you give me the mould names?

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry.
The 2 moulds I have are the Lee #90362= 113gn FNGC short range bullet which i have not yet tried. The other is the RCBS #82014= 180 FN GC, same as yours but 30gn heavier, i think. At the moment I have only shot the rcbs mould out of my military Mauser 98 .308 open sights at 50m service rifle competition. I think the Lee would be more suited to this comp. However i have put 5 shots into 0.5inch at this range (off a rest) with the rcbs seated down to the top driving band with no GC on top of 8gns of ADI AP50N crimped. (fast bunring pistol powder similar to red dot). This is a subsonic load suitable for the match. I am not sure if the nose portion of this bullet will go into the lands, but i have not taken any measurements to confirm this. I think i may be seating them too deep from what you are saying, and may need to keep the base level with the bottom of the case neck if the bullet will go into the lands?? My plan is to rebuild one of my Omark 44 rifles for some longer range (300m) cast shooting with the rcbs bullet. But i do like the sound of your 311466! Our rifle association here sells a replacement barrel for fullbore competition, which is a medium weight chrome molly .308 1/13T 26inch long button rifled too! Not forged! I would like to get a new bolt head and top it off with a Leupold scope. The barrel is 350 the bolt head is 75 and a Leupold scope is about 400 dependant on model.
Hoping to get out of it for about $1000, but i am considering a longer SS fluted barrel, but that would blow the budget and may be overkill for the intended purpose? Thanks Larry.
BB033

[MaxJon]

Hi Larry, can you or anyone suggest a method for seating depth. I usually cut a case down to the the neck portion length ways, then resize and gently seat a bullet by hand and chamber into rifle to determine measurement for the given bullet. I usually do this 3 or 4 times to confirm measurement. Then seat the bullet 10thou (or .25mm if you like) shorter than this measurement. By using the above method I consistently get 63.4mm for a cartridge OAL of 63.2mm. A bit rough and ready some may say, but usually gets the results i am looking for.
I have measured the nose diametre of my 180FN GC and it does measure .300 inch.
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[Larry Gibson]

Sounds like a nice rifle you're putting together. Should do well for 300 meter shooting. If that 180 cast bullet doesn't work out look for a bullet without such a long bore riding nose ssimilar to the 311466 or the LBT 150 gr bullet.

That's the same way I measure OAL; split the neck down to the shoulder and then chamber a round with the bullet just started. If the cut goes slightly below the neck into the case shoulder you can also see if the GC is at or below the case neck. I also use such a case with a flat based jacketed bullet seated backwards. The sharp edge of the flat base shows the oal where the leade, at caliber, begins. You can also track throat erosion by taking such an oal measurement every 500 rounds or so. Here's some examples.

Larry Gibson

[phishroy]

Sounds like a nice rifle you're putting together. Should do well for 300 meter shooting. If that 180 cast bullet doesn't work out look for a bullet without such a long bore riding nose ssimilar to the 311466 or the LBT 150 gr bullet.

That's the same way I measure OAL; split the neck down to the shoulder and then chamber a round with the bullet just started. If the cut goes slightly below the neck into the case shoulder you can also see if the GC is at or below the case neck. I also use such a case with a flat based jacketed bullet seated backwards. The sharp edge of the flat base shows the oal where the leade, at caliber, begins. You can also track throat erosion by taking such an oal measurement every 500 rounds or so. Here's some examples.

Larry Gibson

How do you crack the neck without deforming the brass too much, do you use a small hack saw?

[CWME]

Dremel cutoff wheel will get the job done for this.

[MaxJon]

I used to have a 1:8 AR15, and after a lot of work got it to shoot extremely well with RCBS 55gr. at 1800 fps. (6.0gr. Green Dot) anything faster would start to look like shotgun patterns. It can be done, but takes a lot of experimenting to get everything right.

Thanks Nobade.
I Really like .223, just cant decide if im up to the challenge of cast with the 1/8twist.

[AZ-JIM]

I have an AR with the 1-8 twist. I have it setup specificly for F-Class matches and at this time I am not willing to shoot cast boolits in it (it works well, it cost alot, and I don't want anything to change). The twist rate is designed for a specific bullet length to weight ratio for a given diameter right? Doesn't this still apply when using cast or is there a fps window that has to be maintained as well for a given twist rate? There are a few choices in longer heavier boolit moulds in .22 caliber (60-98g) so thats what I would use as long as they don't need to be at 2600fps to stabilize properly. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, I'm just throwing it out there because I don't know.

az-jim

[MaxJon]

I have an AR with the 1-8 twist. I have it setup specificly for F-Class matches and at this time I am not willing to shoot cast boolits in it (it works well, it cost alot, and I don't want anything to change). The twist rate is designed for a specific bullet length to weight ratio for a given diameter right? Doesn't this still apply when using cast or is there a fps window that has to be maintained as well for a given twist rate? There are a few choices in longer heavier boolit moulds in .22 caliber (60-98g) so thats what I would use as long as they don't need to be at 2600fps to stabilize properly. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, I'm just throwing it out there because I don't know.

az-jim

No probs AZ JIM, the biggest mould i have come across is the 60 gn RCBS.
I like the 223 its a pleasant change from all the 308 shooting i have done.
If you can put me onto a larger one that would be good!
BB03

[mroliver77]

I have a 1-9 twist AR with 20 inch barrel. It will shoot cast fairly well. I have not wrung it out yet. I have found that it likes hard tough boolits. WW+tin and oven heat treated worked well for me. Nothing spectacular once it was loaded over 2000fps. 3" groups with most boolits in half that area. I was out of stick powder and was trying light ball powder loads with dacron. I got an 8lb of 4895 and will try again when I get to it. There is a theory that too much spin ruins cast boolit accuracy and there is a lot of evidence to support this. There are those that disagree also and they raise some valid points. It is a touchy area for some reason and discussions about it usually become sophomoric battles.

Jay

[xfoxofshogo]

Thanks Nobade.
I Really like .223, just cant decide if im up to the challenge of cast with the 1/8twist.

y not swage 22 jackits in to 223 aka 224 (223 is realy 224) danr is makeing dies for doing this

i have a 1-9 twist it dose not like cast so far i do not think cast in a 1-8 is a good thing with a 1-9 i have to shoot 55g and up the 1-8 you have to use a 65g and up

you can get a 1-10 and 1-14 in 223 for a ar15
i hear the 1-12 like cast and you can get in a 28 inch

o and yes the 22 lr jackets work realy nice in a 1-9 i have shot 200 in my ar15 so far thay shot beter thin off the shelf i think

[AZ-JIM]

No probs AZ JIM, the biggest mould i have come across is the 60 gn RCBS.
I like the 223 its a pleasant change from all the 308 shooting i have done.
If you can put me onto a larger one that would be good!
BB03

Try this link if you are not already aware of it: http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

The 225036 and 228035 come in multiple weights. Finding one may be a different story but there's one out there somewhere. Hope this helps.

az-jim

[MaxJon]

Thanks guys! If i was to go down the .223 conversion track, surely i could get good accuracy out of the 1/8 twist if i kept the bullets at subsonic velocities (1100 fps) for some 50m target practice??? Any thoughts? anyone??
Thanks for that great link too AZ JIM!!
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[madsenshooter]

I get 1.4" at 1600fps with my 6x45 that has a 1/8 twist. That's minute of squirrel noggin, and would hold a coyote's head at 200yd (that'd be dingo for you bullbarrell). I don't think you'd have to limit yourself to subsonic. I even found a boolit that works a bit better and with more trials to go my ceiling is now above 1800fps. My tight twist barrel also has 5R rifling, to make things even tougher.

[MaxJon]

I get 1.4" at 1600fps with my 6x45 that has a 1/8 twist. That's minute of squirrel noggin, and would hold a coyote's head at 200yd (that'd be dingo for you bullbarrell). I don't think you'd have to limit yourself to subsonic. I even found a boolit that works a bit better and with more trials to go my ceiling is now above 1800fps. My tight twist barrel also has 5R rifling, to make things even tougher.

Hi madsenshooter, it would be minute of FOX head at 200 for us, the bloody thiings are everywhere right the moment. I nearly ran 2 over on the way home from work last night! Missed them dammit! haha.
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[MaxJon]

Could 1" make a difference? Depends on how fast you want to push cast bullets. I also suggest getting the barrel as long as you can, mine is 27.5". Use a correct designed cast bullet and use a slow burning powder that gives consistent ignition.

I size the 311466 down to .300 to the second driving band to fit the throat so the GC is at the base of the case neck. The alloy is 80/20 linotype/lead AC'd. Lee BHN reads 18. I size them .311, use Javelina lube and Hornady GCs or my own made of .014 brass stock. I use AA4350 powder.

Sorry, I don't know what the product numbers of those moulds mean as I use the mould design name. Probably my bad but mentally I can picture a mould by name rather than by a lot of different product numbers. The name means something. Such as the RCBS 30-150-FN; 30 being the caliber, 150 being the weight and FN being the nose shape. A number such as "8014" means nothing to me. I could look it up but that gets tiresome after looking up so many numbers. Could you give me the mould names?

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry, how do you size the nose of your bullets .300? I have just got out of pan lubing with lee sizers, and got a RCBS LAM 2. Can i do this with my LAM 2? I think i would have to go down to .298 also. Currently i have the bottom lube groove below the neck portion of the case, and i dont think its helping accuracy.
Thanks Larry!
BB03

[Larry Gibson]

bullbarrel033

I'll take a couple picures tomorrow and post.

Larry Gibson

[MaxJon]

bullbarrel033

I'll take a couple picures tomorrow and post.

Larry Gibson

Awesome Larry! Thanks, I have not used a lube sizer before, I use to pan lube and use Lee sizers

[Larry Gibson]

The 1st photo shows the altered H & I die with the retaining washer in the sizer retaining nut. I use .459 sizer but a smaller size would give more of a shoulder for the bushing to sit on. A .410 or a .427 - .429 would probably be about right. The diameter of a bushing is .5 so I turned the inside (to a depth so the bushing sits flush with the top of the H die) to .530. This allows easier removal of the bushing and also allows the bushing to move laterally in the H die to give better alignment of the nose during sizing. The I die is turned down to a length so it will enter a .258 bushing and push the bullets out of the sizer bushing. At that size it works fine for .30 call bullets also. The bushing retaining washer is a standard washer with the diameter reduced so it is an easy fit in the sizer retaing nut. The hole is also enlarged so the bullet does not touch it. When the retaining nut is tightened down with the washer it is snugged down on the H die and the sizer bushing then floats in its well in the H die.

The 2nd photo shows the H & I die in the 450.

The 3rd photo shows the sizer bushing inserted into the well in the H die.

The 4th photo shows the retaining nut and washer in place to hold the H & I die and the sizer bushing in the 450.

The 5th phot shows a 421 top punch with the flat meplat opened to .314. This gives a little lateral movement to the bullet so it self aligns with the sizer. The flat meplat of the top punch really seats the GC square on the base giving it nice sharp edges.

The 6th photo shows all assembled with a bullet nose being sized.

The I die stop is used to adjust the length/depth of sizing done to the nose.

When complete noses of cast bullets can be sized down, within reason, simply by having a variety of sizing bushings. I found that sizing more than .002 at a time can bend or distort some alloyed bullets. A small bit of lube (I use regular case sizing lube) wiped on the nose prior to sizing helps also. With correct size bushings you can size down in steps if a lot of sizing is needed.

Looks a lot more complicated than it really is. It is easy to convert/alter the H & I die to take the bushing with a lathe and any machinist experience.

Thanks and credit must be given to Doc Highwall who showed me how to do this.

Larry Gibson

[MaxJon]

The 1st photo shows the altered H & I die with the retaining washer in the sizer retaining nut. I use .459 sizer but a smaller size would give more of a shoulder for the bushing to sit on. A .410 or a .427 - .429 would probably be about right. The diameter of a bushing is .5 so I turned the inside (to a depth so the bushing sits flush with the top of the H die) to .530. This allows easier removal of the bushing and also allows the bushing to move laterally in the H die to give better alignment of the nose during sizing. The I die is turned down to a length so it will enter a .258 bushing and push the bullets out of the sizer bushing. At that size it works fine for .30 call bullets also. The bushing retaining washer is a standard washer with the diameter reduced so it is an easy fit in the sizer retaing nut. The hole is also enlarged so the bullet does not touch it. When the retaining nut is tightened down with the washer it is snugged down on the H die and the sizer bushing then floats in its well in the H die.

The 2nd photo shows the H & I die in the 450.

The 3rd photo shows the sizer bushing inserted into the well in the H die.

The 4th photo shows the retaining nut and washer in place to hold the H & I die and the sizer bushing in the 450.

The 5th phot shows a 421 top punch with the flat meplat opened to .314. This gives a little lateral movement to the bullet so it self aligns with the sizer. The flat meplat of the top punch really seats the GC square on the base giving it nice sharp edges.

The 6th photo shows all assembled with a bullet nose being sized.

The I die stop is used to adjust the length/depth of sizing done to the nose.

When complete noses of cast bullets can be sized down, within reason, simply by having a variety of sizing bushings. I found that sizing more than .002 at a time can bend or distort some alloyed bullets. A small bit of lube (I use regular case sizing lube) wiped on the nose prior to sizing helps also. With correct size bushings you can size down in steps if a lot of sizing is needed.

Looks a lot more complicated than it really is. It is easy to convert/alter the H & I die to take the bushing with a lathe and any machinist experience.

Thanks and credit must be given to Doc Highwall who showed me how to do this.

Larry Gibson

When I get more familiar and experienced with my LAM2, i will give this a go.
BB03