Duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube

[9mmcast]

Has anyone had success with duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube?

[MtGun44]

Not meaning to offend, but my impression of the hard commercial
"lubes" is that they are mostly for show, and don't do a lot of
real lubing. Ok for moderate velocity loads, but even in my .45 acp
I get significant leading with commercial hard lubed bullets, which
I attribute primarily to the poor performance of these lubes.

I shoot them a lot for IPSC where only moderate velocity and
moderate accy are required, and I don't care to spend my personal time
casting bullets for quick and dirty shooting. My good bullets are
for hunting and shooting groups at longer distances.

There are a lot of good lube formulas out there, but most are
softer lubes. There is a lot of discussion and apparently some
success with Johnson Paste wax and mixes of it and other
improvers, harder lube but not much related to the commercial
hard lubes.

My first thought is "why would you want to duplicate them?" -
again, not trying to be rude but just as I understand that class of
lube - it appears to be mostly formulated to make sure that lubed
bullets will ship well in bulk and store well in warm temps rather
than provide a top quality lube.

I understand the practical commercial benefits to this class of lube,
and they certainly have a place in the market, but it seems a bit out
of place for us ' casting crazies' on this site. Feels like mostly straight
"Gulf wax" parafin with a crayon dropped in for dye to me, but while
a shoot many thousands of them per year, I've never thought much
about the formulation of the commercial hard lubes.

One of the more experienced folks may be able to correct my impressions
if they have more definitive experience with this.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with mtgun on this one

[9mmcast]

Not meaning to offend, but my impression of the hard commercial
"lubes" is that they are mostly for show, and don't do a lot of
real lubing. Ok for moderate velocity loads, but even in my .45 acp
I get significant leading with commercial hard lubed bullets, which
I attribute primarily to the poor performance of these lubes.

I shoot them a lot for IPSC where only moderate velocity and
moderate accy are required, and I don't care to spend my personal time
casting bullets for quick and dirty shooting. My good bullets are
for hunting and shooting groups at longer distances.

There are a lot of good lube formulas out there, but most are
softer lubes. There is a lot of discussion and apparently some
success with Johnson Paste wax and mixes of it and other
improvers, harder lube but not much related to the commercial
hard lubes.

My first thought is "why would you want to duplicate them?" -
again, not trying to be rude but just as I understand that class of
lube - it appears to be mostly formulated to make sure that lubed
bullets will ship well in bulk and store well in warm temps rather
than provide a top quality lube.

I understand the practical commercial benefits to this class of lube,
and they certainly have a place in the market, but it seems a bit out
of place for us ' casting crazies' on this site. Feels like mostly straight
"Gulf wax" parafin with a crayon dropped in for dye to me, but while
a shoot many thousands of them per year, I've never thought much
about the formulation of the commercial hard lubes.

One of the more experienced folks may be able to correct my impressions
if they have more definitive experience with this.

Bill


Bill,

I merely asked if anyone had success duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube. That is the only question I am interested in finding an answer to. I'm not interested in opinions, impressions, etc. regarding my question. I merely wanted to know if anyone had success. That is all I am interested in. Sorry if I affended you, but I didn't want my question becoming obliterated.

[waksupi]

9mm, lots of luck, with trying to have a topic strickly adherred to on this board. It ain't gonna happen. Never has, never will. The gain is, you stand an excellent chance of learning something you never considered.

[Bass Ackward]

9MM,

Every couple of months we get someone coming by wanting to duplicate a hard lube of some sort. Usually guys wanting to cast professionally. Why we had one a couple of weeks ago who was asking about Magma too. Magma's hard stuff must be better than most, because it get's asked about the most. There has never been a post answering your exact question in the last few years that I can remember reading.

We have several professional casters here that have to use something, but they ain't sayin for some reason. :grin:

Big dilema. The main ingredient to date for hardening is paraffins which add nothing to the lubricity of a lube. They mostly detract because cast bullets do not permit situations where high rotational forces can cause good lube displacement, like handgun bullets, which you apparently already understand.

Good luck.

[9.3X62AL]

9mm Cast--

Dittoes to both Waksupi and Bass. Topicality here is like frequency drift on analog radio tuners--just part of the game.

[bishopgrandpa]

The wandering back and forth is why I am on this forum so much. I have been casting for over 40 years with only locals to talk to. Now I have the whole world to benefit from. Who sez you can't teach an old dog new tricks? I'm grateful for all the questions and answers. Keep 'em coming.

[Lloyd Smale]

theres a ton to learn hear and your best bet is to listen to the answers no matter how off topic they are because in everyone of them youll probably learn something. The professional casters that arent giving out the hard lube recipe are doing it for two reasons. One there not to proud of it or two there not using it. Bills post stated fact and wasnt meant to offend anyone and just because a guy makes a post doesnt mean he owns it.

[KYCaster]

Now hold on just a minnit here guys. Yer steppin on my toes. :(

I don't mind telling you I put Thompson's Blue Angel lube on all the boolits I sell. I've tried a lot of lubes, both commercial and home brewed and Dave's is the best I've found so far.(Sorry Glen, I haven't tried your Carnauba Red yet)

Rather than blaming the lube, have you considered that your leading and inaccuracy problems may be related to boolit fit instead? Does your boolit supplier give you what's exactly right for your gun, or do you just pick up what's on the shelf? It could make a difference.

Believe it or not, the 45ACP is one of the worst applications for hard lubes, it seems to work much better in higher pressure rounds like 40S&W, 38Super and 357Mag. I shoot many thousands of 45ACP every year and have very little problem with leading. Both the guns I use in competition prefer boolits sized .453 rather than .452 so I could eliminate my leading by doing that, but there are lots of tight chambered guns out there that won't function reliably with a .453 boolit so .452 is what I use for standard size and I use the exact same product that I sell.

I've recently started working with cast in rifles and I have yet to find a lube that works better than Blue Angel in all of them I've tried. Factory duplication loads in 22 Hornet, 30-30, 357Mag., 35Rem., and 44-40 work very well with no leading whatsoever. Various 50-50 alox lubes have severe velocity and pressure limitations. And I don't understand how you guys can get any kind of performance from Lee LLA, it was a dismal failure for me. The only thing I've used that comes anywhere close to Blue Angel is Dan's Bullshop Speed Green, and I'm still testing to see which one comes out best.

Bottom line is, everybody has their own favorites and their own reasons for using them. Seems like some people can make most anything work.


9mmcast: I don't think anybody here can answer your question. I'm sure there are commercial casters who have done it with varying degrees of success, but I don't think they're willing to give up their formula. And this is just a guess....I wouldn't be surprised if Magma buys their lube from Dave Thompson.[smilie=1:

OK guys, thanks for listening, now back to your regrlarly scheduled program.:drinks:

Jerry

[Texasflyboy]

Has anyone had success with duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube?

What I have done in the past is request the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) from suppliers.

A little investigative work can usually reveal the composition, and source, of the raw ingredients.

[carpetman]

The question is,has anyone had success with duplicating Magmas Engineering Hard wax lube? I have not. Why? I dont have a lube heater nor do I want to create a condition where I need one. For this reason,I have devoted more time to developing a hemorrhoid transplant than I have to duplicating Magma Engineering hard lube.

[sundog]

Ray, about the 'roid transplant. Any success yet? Just wondering, because I know someone who desperately needs mine.... sundog

[OLPDon]

A little investigative work can usually reveal the composition, and source, of the raw ingredients.[/QUOTE]

Great Link:
The information H-way stairway to the stars Thank U (Al Gore?)
Don...........

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess everyone has differnt experiences with differnt lubes. About 5 years ago i did a test on my own with my own guns. Both rifle and pistol and both low velocity and high velocity loads. The only two hard lubes i tried were thompsons and red rooster and they both did miserably in handguns both high and low velocity Most of the lube was still on recovered bullets. Now these arent your avearge out of the box guns they were clements and linebaugh guns and a couple smiths. None of them ever gave me leading problems till i used hard lube. All of them did with hard lube. Accuracy suffered but im guessing it was because of the leading. The hard lubes did ok in the rifles but no better then javalina or lbt blue soft. I did notice that in even high velocity rifle loads leading was minimal with the hard lubes. What lube did best overal? id have to give that to lbt blue. I now make my own and it is a combination of about 80 percent felix lube 20 percent magma blue hard with about a 1/4 of a bottle of lee alox thrown in and a little corduba wax. I mix usually a 3 lb coffee can full and its done as well as lbt blue for me. I use the magma in it because i store alot of bullets and like javalina felix lube is a little to soft and the heat in the barn gets to it. I use the alox because thats about the only good use i can come up with for it. Like you ive had crap luck using it as tumble lube. I know a few professional casters myself and they all will tell me they use the hard lube because it handles shipping of bullets better and they will all admitt that hard lubes for the most part are not the greatest. John Linebaugh said it best he said to leave the crayons to the children. Now hes a man that knows sixguns and what it takes to make them shoot and wouldnt put one bullet through his gun with hard lube. To give Glen a little credit i did try some of his carnauba red that i bought to use the same way i do the magma to firm up my homemade lube and by God it did seem to lube pretty well. Dont tell anyone i said that though.
Now hold on just a minnit here guys. Yer steppin on my toes. :(

I don't mind telling you I put Thompson's Blue Angel lube on all the boolits I sell. I've tried a lot of lubes, both commercial and home brewed and Dave's is the best I've found so far.(Sorry Glen, I haven't tried your Carnauba Red yet)

Rather than blaming the lube, have you considered that your leading and inaccuracy problems may be related to boolit fit instead? Does your boolit supplier give you what's exactly right for your gun, or do you just pick up what's on the shelf? It could make a difference.

Believe it or not, the 45ACP is one of the worst applications for hard lubes, it seems to work much better in higher pressure rounds like 40S&W, 38Super and 357Mag. I shoot many thousands of 45ACP every year and have very little problem with leading. Both the guns I use in competition prefer boolits sized .453 rather than .452 so I could eliminate my leading by doing that, but there are lots of tight chambered guns out there that won't function reliably with a .453 boolit so .452 is what I use for standard size and I use the exact same product that I sell.

I've recently started working with cast in rifles and I have yet to find a lube that works better than Blue Angel in all of them I've tried. Factory duplication loads in 22 Hornet, 30-30, 357Mag., 35Rem., and 44-40 work very well with no leading whatsoever. Various 50-50 alox lubes have severe velocity and pressure limitations. And I don't understand how you guys can get any kind of performance from Lee LLA, it was a dismal failure for me. The only thing I've used that comes anywhere close to Blue Angel is Dan's Bullshop Speed Green, and I'm still testing to see which one comes out best.

Bottom line is, everybody has their own favorites and their own reasons for using them. Seems like some people can make most anything work.


9mmcast: I don't think anybody here can answer your question. I'm sure there are commercial casters who have done it with varying degrees of success, but I don't think they're willing to give up their formula. And this is just a guess....I wouldn't be surprised if Magma buys their lube from Dave Thompson.[smilie=1:

OK guys, thanks for listening, now back to your regrlarly scheduled program.:drinks:

Jerry

[fecmech]

Gentlemen--My experience is just the opposite of Loyds. I use hard lubes exclusively in all my hanguns from the .45 acp @700fps to .357 & .44 mag at 1400 fps with no leading and excellent accuracy. You could not get me to go back to 50/50 alox or any other soft lube. They work ok but the guns and cases are a sticky mess after about 100 rds. 50/50 stinks to the high heavens and smokes about as much as black powder. Guys magma is a good lube, if you don't like hard lubes don't use them. I really don't understand why the guys using the soft lubes have such a religious fervor about them. Sorry for the rant guys but I get tired of the hard lubes are crap and soft lubes are nivana.

[357maximum]

I find it awe inspiring, and remarkable how excited/irritated/devoted/argumentative we get over some pretty damn simple differneces in "proportions" of a wax to an oil.

I have often been the guilty one myself..so ...I am not throwing stones here...just making observations..

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess if everyone used the same stuff and had the same ideas on what worked for cast bullets this would be a pretty boring place!!

[45r]

The easy way to make a good hard lube like magma is pariffin mixed with beeswax,moly,anyhydrous lanolin,lubeguard,Marvel Mystery Oil,Japan wax(Carnuba wax), and mix in vasaline to make it softer if it comes out too hard.A lot of THESE INGREDIENTS ARE in most lubes and I have been using blue angel with super moly and it has always worked well.Moly has been known to work well since the 1950S and is now coming back.I have tried all kinds of combinations and as long as you are using the right sized bullet and have a clean smooth bore(firelapped) even pariffin or beeswax(refined) mixed 50/50 with vasaline works,Its called Darr lube and Ive read that is what SPG is.So just mix pariffin with a little beeswax,carnuba,sta-lube moly, and vasaline and you will have something close.You can add the other stuff if you want to make it real slippery.Be sure to mix in a double boiler. If you mix a stick of blue angel with a stick of lyman super moly you will have enough to make alot of bullets and its only a few bucks per stick.I take the lamp shade off and put a light bulb next to my luber and that works like a heater and pull it back a few inchs when the lube starts flowing just right. I put tin foil on cardboard to reflect heat toward luber and away from me.Works with hard lube and you can adjust the heat by moving the bulb closer or farther.

[Bret4207]

Bill,

I merely asked if anyone had success duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube. That is the only question I am interested in finding an answer to. I'm not interested in opinions, impressions, etc. regarding my question. I merely wanted to know if anyone had success. That is all I am interested in. Sorry if I affended you, but I didn't want my question becoming obliterated.


Melt up some Crayola Crayons. It's about the same IMHO. At least thats my impression.

[9.3X62AL]

My "allegiance" to the 50/50 lubes has to do with ease of use in lube sizers and ease of acquisition, more than anything else. I don't push pressure or velocity envelopes very much with castings, and strive for the best dimensional integrity possible between barrel and boolit. That course of conduct is not very demanding for a boolit lube.

[MGySgt]

In my limited experience with Hard Lubes (Roster Red and Glenn's) the hard lube builds up around the part of the yoke the cylinder rotates on. After 100 rounds through a pair of 629's I have found it hard to get the cylinder off the yoke. I have also had trouble getting the base pin out of a SBH using hard lubes.

No more hard lubes for me.

Drew

[carpetman]

I heard KY jelly is a good hard lube. Sometimes ****** is needed to stiffen it up. ****** won't mix with everything. If you mix ****** with Rogaine you will look like Don King.

[Scrounger]

I heard KY jelly is a good hard lube. Sometimes ****** is needed to stiffen it up. ****** won't mix with everything. If you mix ****** with Rogaine you will look like Don King.

I have no doubt you're an expert on both substances and buy it in large quantities. Tell us again about the time you gave your pet rattler a shot of ****** and he couldn't crawl or shake his tail for a month...

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill second that.
Melt up some Crayola Crayons. It's about the same IMHO. At least thats my impression.

[45r]

I wonder why my oregon trail and leadhead bullets shoot so well with the hard green lube that is on them.the accuracy is quite good in 44 mag.I havnt shot them in a long time but remember 1 inch groups were possible in my 44.

[Bret4207]

45r- You probably have found the happy circumstance of a boolit that fits your barrel well and load that the combo likes. No one here in favor of soft lubes is saying that hard lubes won't ever work. Rather it was the tone of the response to the first answer that put the guys off. "I don't want to hear what you think, just answer my question. And hurry up about it too!". Around here thats throwing a match at the powder keg.

The idea that something always will or always won't work with cast boolits, or jacketed for that matter, is not something too many of the posters seem to accept. I'd say thats a good thing.

[45r]

THAT IS WHAT IS SO INTERESTING about casting your own bullets is you can make it work your own way sometimes.HE PROBABLY HAD good shooting with the magma bullets and didnt realize that people were trying to let him know that there are even better choices.There a lot of very good casters here and much can be learned.I find most opinions interesting even if I dont agree.We all make ourselves look a little cranky sometimes but we all like casting and that is fun.Sometimes I wonder if we get to technical.

[Bret4207]

45r- You got it! We're on the same page buddy.

[9mmcast]

45r- You probably have found the happy circumstance of a boolit that fits your barrel well and load that the combo likes. No one here in favor of soft lubes is saying that hard lubes won't ever work. Rather it was the tone of the response to the first answer that put the guys off. "I don't want to hear what you think, just answer my question. And hurry up about it too!". Around here thats throwing a match at the powder keg.

The idea that something always will or always won't work with cast boolits, or jacketed for that matter, is not something too many of the posters seem to accept. I'd say thats a good thing.


It as always an interesting adventure into the human physciology how humans will bend and twist something they read or hear into a form of words to suit their tastes. You have quoted me as saying '.....And hurry up about it too!'. Please return to my question and you will see that you have misquoted me.

Thank you to those that have responded kindly.

[Bret4207]

It was the tone of your response to an answer which was meant to be helpfull. Thats all. I'm not the only one who picked up on it. We do tend to get off the track here and the responses were intended to be helpfull. We can't hear your voice or see your face and know how you intend to come across. So if your words are disrespectfull or seem short tempered you'll get the same type of response back. None of my "quote" was accurate. Rather it was my feeble attempt to convey the tone you presented to the poster. I wouldn't take it to heart. I'm told I've been a bit short tempered lately.

It's odd, this place. At the same time we have guys complaining about the lack of free expression and such, we have guys complaining about too much free expression in answer to a question.

FWIW- I was entirely serious about the Crayolas. At one time they were considered an alertnative hard lube. It was probably 15 years ago that I read about this. May be worth a try if you can find something appropriate to add to it.

[Jon K]

Wouldn't it be easier if 9mmcaster told everyone why he wants to duplicate Magma hard lube?

Being too vague, will take posters off track. People assume thing, then we have all sorts of non related posts going in a different direction than the original intent.

Jon

[LAH]

Has anyone had success with duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube?

I think the question is pretty straight forward. I see nothing to scratch our head about here. If someone knows the make up of this lube and they have duplicated it, well that's success.

To answer your question, I haven't nor have I tried.........Creeker

[alamogunr]

Reading all the posts to this thread is really helping me to pass a long slow New Year's Day. I seldom go thru a thread that I don't learn something and sometimes I print it out to a file for future use even though I don't know what it will be. So thanks to 9mmcast for an interesting thread.
John

[j. clark]

I have not tried to duplicate Magma's lube. My experience with it is limited to lubing several million bullets with it for myself and satisfied customers. It is the best thing I have found for lubing bullets to be shot at low or high velocity. Some lubes will do one but not the other. Magma's lube is not crayola or parrifin based (it isn't even especially hard) It is lithium based. It is a much better all around lube than anything else. Btw It shows quite a bit of ignorance to condemn something you know nothing of. 9mm cast my advice to you is to continue to buy magma's lube if you like it. I know of no way to know the exact formula without a lab. analysis. Bullet lube will not be a huge expense for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

my answer comes from casting WELL over a million bullets and shooting them myself and testing and using many differnent lubes over the years and after testing probably 20 different lubes extensivly have found out what really works for me. As far as magma blue goes if i wanted a hard lube id use lbt hard over magma blue any day at any velocity and id go the same way with Lars hard lube its a better lube then magma in my testing. That includes both accuracy and the prevention of leading. Like was stated before i have found a good use for magma lube. It stiffens up the felix lube a touch. Felix is a little to soft for my needs. I probably have between a 1/4 and a 1/2 a million YES MILLION cast bullets at any one time in my barn and the temperature swings especially the heat in the summer dont bide well for storage with straight felix lube. I know i could firm it up with paraphin but i figure if im going to put something in it it might as well be a lubricant. Im not at all saying that the lube i make is the best. I know though it has worked as well for me as anything ive tested. There are some good lubes on the market for someone who wants to buy lubes. In all reality it doesnt take much of a lube for handguns. Put magma blue on a junk magma bevel based bullet and shoot it at 800 fps out of a 38 special and it will probably do fine. Put it on a 250 grain swc and shoot it at 1700 fps out of a 454 and then you will find out how good your lube works.

[felix]

Mr. Clark, you can begin making the lube with lithium stearate. I would suggest the amout of lithium present in your final mix to be no more than 7 percent. Most lithium based lubes are formulated with this amount, or even lower. Lithium is basically used to make a lube more water proof than usual. Folks have made lubes having a 50-50 composition, containing a "lithium" lube from the car parts store and then mixed with beeswax. Try that, and alter accordingly. If you want it harder, add some carnauba; if you want it softer, add some coconut oil; if you want it slicker, add some castor oil. Caution: if your lithium lube from the store is made with a petro base, then you would have to cook the mixture to poly up the castor oil to be a little less anxious to leave the final lube when unattended. ... felix

[felix]

Mr. Clark, the folks on this board are all dumb asses. Those who know it all have already done what was required of them, and are no longer present on this earth, hopefully obtaining their just reward. ... felix

[waksupi]

Strange, in one topic, someone says that Lee Liquid alox is the best lube they have ever used. Now it is Magma. Pick a gender, Harold.

[45r]

The best auto lube is sta-lube moly-graph grease.It has moly,graphite,lithium soap,mineral oil and works with bees wax,50/50 by weight.Only 3 dollars and 50 cents at napa.Felix is right about making sure you mix it right.Mix in a double boiler arrangment so it stays together.Probably would be good to put some Ivory soap shavings in to add a little lanolin,I think Ivory has that in it.

[Ricochet]

Plain old Ivory is supposed to be pure ordinary soap. Their advertising guys came up with "99 and 44/100% pure."

[45r]

your right ricochet.I meant and add Ivory and add lanolin.Sodium sterate is in Ivory and helps keep the mix blended well in summer and over time.I am still trying to find the perfect lube.I read a survey showing Felix lube being the most popular.It is going to be hard to do any better I amagine but I like the increase in velocity and flow properties of adding moly and graphite.These additives work well in all sliding applications.The moly-graph grease is a cheap way to add this to the mix.I have had good results with accuracy in about any lube but would like to find one that isnt sticky and never leaves a little leading in the forcing cone area when I try to push a plain base bullet too hard in my 357.Rcbs 158 swc shoots good and fast with 17.0 lilgun but leaves a little lead in the cone area.Have had to use GC bullets in that caliber because that revolver likes fast loads. soft lubes do work better than hard but is sure a pain wiping off the excess lube. I love that old pinned and recessed gun because it reminds me of the days when revolvers looked as good as they shot.I should just stick with the 358156 lyman and forget about it but a saeco 180GC flat point keeps making me wonder if that would be the perfect bullet for that old 27.I guess Im looking for an excuse to get another mold and blame it on the perfect lube hasnt been found yet.

[lar45]

Hi all, nice heated debate here.
As always, if anyone would like to try my Carnauba Red(semi-hard) lube, just send your address and I'll drop a sample in the mail. When cooled to room temp, it is slightly tacky, but stays on the bullet and doesn't make a mess.
I haven't shot Magma's lube, so I have no direct comparison.

I get some of my supplies from http://www.thesage.com/index.html They have Sodium Stearate and list it as a hardener. I ordered a bottle, but haven't found the time to test it.
Adding more Carnauba wax flakes does stiffen a lube. this is not the red stuff on a cheese wheel.
I personally haven't found any good use for Parrafin, other than candles for the wife. So I don't use it in any of my lubes.

www.lsstuff.com/lube

[Ricochet]

Whenever I read "Sodium Stearate," I just think "Soap." Stearic acid is just the most common fatty acid in beef fat. Soap's made from a variety of fats, animal and vegetable, but for our purposes I think plain old white soap will work as well as sodium stearate.

[felix]

If they used sodium hydroxide to covert the fat (make the soap) it would make no difference what the source fat is. Use the soap in question, and if it does NOT dry your skin, the soap has a "moisturizer" which can be most anything, including a fat not attacked throughly by the hydroxide. That would be OK to some extent, but not if the "fat" had extra glycerin thrown in than would be normally present after a normal hydro job. This is one reason to use a soap that does not produce bubbles during melting. Bubbles mean some moisture remains, and that could be the glycerin which retains water. Best NOT to use home made soaps for this reason. We want the glycerin for actual soap, but not for lube purposes. There we want ALL the glycerin to be extracted out by the Ivory folks. Sometimes they do a good job, and mostly they don't get it all. So, like everything else, the soap we buy is lot dependent. Always look for soap that produces very little or no bubblies, and then go buy the rest of that lot. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

reminds me of the first batch of felix i made. It was a dismal failure. I couldnt find anhydrous lanolin and figured what the hell and just used regular lanolin. The lube looked pretty good and i thought I really had something. About a month later all the bullets i lubed had the lube falling out of the groves. The lube dried up and shrank and fell right out. Now being a dummy like i am i do everything whole hog and had two 3 lb coffee cans of that stuff. I still use it to flux lead!

[Willbird]

Actually when a person finds a recipe that works with rthe hard crayon lubes, it might be worth a try leaving the lube off totally. Or using a rooster jacket type of floor wax lube. It could be that everything is nearly perfect and only a slight anti-solder is needed to make the bullet work.

I have some of the carnuba lube to try that is made by a board member, all I need is time :-).

I would like something a bit stiffer than LBT blue because sometimes it falls out of the bullets on me.

I have some LBT blue solid sticks I would trade even up if somebody wants to try it, PM me .

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

Actually when a person finds a recipe that works with rthe hard crayon lubes, it might be worth a try leaving the lube off totally. Or using a rooster jacket type of floor wax lube. It could be that everything is nearly perfect and only a slight anti-solder is needed to make the bullet work.

I would like something a bit stiffer than LBT blue because sometimes it falls out of the bullets on me.

Bill


Bill,

You hit it. Lube has a percentage of components that are added to allow it to lubricate and make it perform in the way you are .... or are wanting to use it. To date, anything that is added to harden a lube, simply reduces the "percentage" of lubricant available in the end product. Why is that so hard to understand?

If your bore is smooth enough and bullet hard enough, why you can make LLA work. We have guys that demonstrate that all the time. If it works for ya, God bless ya. But lube can and will limit you if you do not understand it. OR worse, .... it can force you into a pattern. As long as that pattern is working, great. But disappointment under this senario will leave you disillusioned and frustrated. Been there, done that.

When I read some one say that this mix or hardness is needed for this velocity, the trailor should always follow "WITH THIS LUBE .... UNDER THIS SET OF CONDITIONS".

Change lube or lube quantity and the whole dynamics changes. Where that mix or hardness used to fail can change dramatically. Possibly allowing more or less velocity / accuracy with softer metals or higher velocites all together. This fosters "formulas" for this pressure with this hardness and then you know the cast limits are firmly in place. Cause if just one guy out there can run a softer mix passed that formula, then the formula is not worth the paper it is written on. It simply becaomes a guide which becomes a limit or ceiling to the uninformed.

[hunter64]

Lar45: I tried some of your Carnauba Red(semi-hard) lube and it is excellent. I bought some Lee TL molds for .357/.45acp/.44mag. I slugged the barrels and went one tho over as stated in the Lyman book. I did the tumble lube thing, sized them and then re lubed after sizing. Accuracy was OK at first then dropped off after about 50 rounds because all my pistols were leaded up. I also found with the TL that some would get on the nose of the bullet and leave a deposit in the seating die and I would have to remove and clean it out every 50 rounds or so. So I tried some of your Red stuff and problems solved, no having to take the die out for cleaning and absolutely no leading in the pistols/revolvers that I shoot. I tried a 30/30 loading at 2100fps and no leading and accuracy was good. Just thought I would give a positive plug to a fellow board member. I would like to try and make my own just for the fun of it and to use all that blasted Lee TL stuff up also at the same time.

[Willbird]

Hunter you experienced why I HATE lee TL :-). I even wrote them a letter about it returning a TL mold that was way oversize, they made all kinds of excuses why it was ok to seat every round deeper, and to use .455 bullets in a 45 acp, and replaced the mold with a normal grease groove 45 mold :-)


Bill

[Ricochet]

I learned in Organic Chemistry 34 years ago that soap is not made directly from fats and lye by the big commercial makers. The fat is first hydrolyzed by high pressure steam with a catalyst, and the valuable glycerin is extracted. The free fatty acids then are reacted with sodium hydroxide to make the soap. Soaps that have glycerin in them have had it added back, except for homemade or boutique soaps. If you get a bar of plain Ivory, it won't have anything but soap in it, and air. It floats because they whipped in air. Makes the bar look bigger than it is. That's what bubbles when you heat it.

The free fatty acids can be fractionally distilled to produce fairly pure single fatty acids, and this is done commercially to make stuff like stearates and oleates.

[felix]

Very good, Ricochet! Thanks. ... felix

[Willbird]

Hey guys, I'm about traded out of lube :-)

Bill

[45r]

got out some real hard feeling lube I bought on Ebay and heated it at low temp on electric stove and put in a big spoonfull of moly-graph greese and it softened it and made it pliable and slippery looking but wife was unhappy about smell.should have done it outside with wind at my back but is cold out today.have to admit that grease smell is bad.never will do it indoors again. The lube was green and now looks a little darker like rcbs pistol.Im begining to think making the slippery stuff is too much hassle. Going to try lars carnuba and or bac,for 20 bucks you have enough for a long time.Rather spend time shooting instead of making lube anyway.got a bunch of bullets ready for some of that red lube,never tried that color and they look better than blue, green,brown or black and it will give me something new to try out.If its as good as I read here I think I will sell off the hard green and the blue lube I have.I am not sure what the blue is.It looks like thompsons and that is why I got it but who knows.It might be LBT or Magma.Got it on Ebay also.Wonder if there is a way to tell the difference.The hard green looks like Saeco solid but was said to be from a custom bullet maker.Never gave this stuff much thought untill all this reading about lubes.

[lar45]

I did a shipping drop test for a bullet company on my red lube. I sized and lubed a bunch of the LEE 476-400 RFs, packed in a box, then kicked, rolled, threw down on the garage floor until the box broke open, then taped up and did some more.
http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/pics/droptest/before-002.jpg
Before
http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/pics/droptest/after-002.jpg
After
Some of the bullets were damaged beyond use, but most all of the lube stayed in place. I think with it being a semi-hard lube that is still tacky and pliable helps.

[Ken O]

I've used lots of Lar's red lube and am real happy with it.

[Sundogg1911]

this is my first time on this Forum. I'm an avid poster on other forums, and i've found it amusing to follow this thread as my first. It's also funny to see another Sundog out there. Sundog....I think I get questions and comment meant for you on another Casting forum. Keeps the posts coming. i'm never to old to learn something. (The Pittsburgh Sundogg)

[LAH]

then taped up and did some more

You should work for the Postal Service.

[David R]

Magma lube.....

I use LAR45's lube almost all the time. I have a S&W 38 that leads a lot. I tried a bunch of things. I fire lapped it, then shot a bunch (600) of J boolits, and opened up the throats. It still leads. I shot 10 Seaco (Saco?) #50 boolits from Fecmech, the guy that posted praise of Magma lube and had NO leading for the first time. One nice little one hole group at 50 feet too.

I am using the same boolit he is from a different mold. His are sized .3575, mine are sized .358. This could be the difference. Mine lead with all 3 grooves lubed with 50/50. Now I have to size my lubed boolits in his sizer to see if its the size or the lube.

On the LEE liquid mule snot. I have 3 uses for it. My 1891 7.65 mauser has a .314 groove. I lube fatter 30 with this stuff, push then through a .314 sizer, then lube them again. They shoot GREAT and I have no lead problems. Probably around 1400 fps. with gas checks.

My Savage model 24 has a 222 barrel. I miked a fired case inside the neck was .231. I have a mold that drops a lovern type 45 grain boolit at .228. I put the gas check on with a Lyman 450, then lube unsized with LLA (LMS? :) ). They shoot 1.5" at 50 yards which is great fo that gun. Nothing else gets me close to that.

Last use, LEE TL 150 out of a 6 banger out of my 38. good but not great accuracy, no leading.

All my other rifle and peestol boolits get lubed and sized in the Star or Lyman 450.

David

[lar45]

then taped up and did some more

You should work for the Postal Service.

I ship mostly in the USPS flat rate envelope. I started getting many packages lost or torn open and only some of the stuff getting delivered. I then started getting tracking #'s on all packages and have only lost 1 in the past 4 months.
Shortly after starting tracking #'s on everything, I started double packing also. I use the Tyvek envelopes(very strong) and pack the lube in flat and tape up with a shipping label on it, then put into the flat rate envelope. That way if the flat rate envelope gets torn off, it still has a shipping label on it.
Part of the bad thing is that the Post office will only let you put one piece of tape across the flap and it's not supposed to wrap around to the back side.
I'm sure the biggest help was the tracking 3's. Then you could tell where it got lost, so I think they take better care of the package with the tracking #.
I started useing click n ship to print postage from home. It comes with a free tracking #, but another nice thing is that I have to tape the label on so I use extra tape.

On the lube topic, I've started working on a hard lube. Now I'll have to spend more time at the range;) Oh darn it.

[45r]

anybody tried jakes moly ceresin,looks alot like magma blue and only 1 dollar per stick.he claims to be the number one seller on Ebay and says it is mixed with bees wax and other ingredients.wonder if his red lube is as good as carnuba red also.

[Sundogg1911]

I've used the red, and then ordered more! was using rooster red, but have now
stopped using the Rooster. and switched over completly

[EDK]

I used your Black Powder Lube for my 50/90 Sharps at the Quigley shoot and am getting better results than the expensive stuff. Better lube star & softer fouling. After I use up the 50/50 in my Star lubri-sizer, I'm going to try the BP lube for my .44 Special CAS loads.

Your products are great and it's a pleasure to deal with someone like you.

:castmine:

Ed in Missouri

[BigSlick]

On the lube topic, I've started working on a hard lube. Now I'll have to spend more time at the range;) Oh darn it.

That's the best news I've heard :drinks:

I just shipped some bullets to a fellow castboolits member for use in his new .327.

Three different ziplocs of bullets, one lubed with Magma Blue, One with LBT hard blue and one with Lar's Carnauba Red.

I got word tonight, the bullets arrived, with the box unmolested (miracle of miracles).

The Magma and LBT blue lubed bullets made the trip without a hitch. No lube came off in shipping. The Red Carnauba lost lube all over the inside of the bag they were in.

Now, don't misinterpret this as a slam against Lar's lubes, because it ain't. Just stating what happened in one shipment.

The Red Carnauba is the best lube I've ever used, over, away and by far. Great accuracy, zero leading and cleanup is a breeze. Flows great in the LAM II, flows great in the Star, the price is right, and Mr. Larsen and co have been absolutely top notch to deal with in every possible way - every time.

But, the sticky from Lar's Red makes me crazy. No matter how much heat I use (or don't) it still gets all over everything. I catch the bullets one at a time in my hand coming out of the Star, set each one up on its base and let it sit for a day or two to setup. This helps some, but when loading, or storing bullets, all it takes is a few bullets to rub together to eventually get a film of lube on every bullet to the point I get clumps of bullets stuck together.

I got a couple sample sticks of lube about three months ago after swapping e-mails and PM with Glenn. One sample had extra carnauba, the other extra beeswax added. Both were better, but still exhibit enough sticky to be messier than I want to deal with long term.

The Magma and LBT lubes are great as far as handling and storage, and better than many with regard to lube properties, only problem is, in my opinion and experience, they can't hold a candle to the Carnauba Red from Lar's when it comes to lube properties and cleanup.

I haven't been home long enough to sit down in the last 3-4 months and probably won't be for another month or more. Haven't been to the range enough to make owning a gun worth the investment, let alone casting.

That, however is nearing an end (finally!) for a while.

I'm stone cold out of your lube at this point and need some more. I was about to order some lube this week, but just really just haven't been able to get up next to the idea of living with the short comings of the LBT and Magma stuff.

Since you are in the process of working up a hard lube, please let me be the first to order 100 sticks when you get it worked out.

I'll send payment up front, drive out and pick it up, or send a carrier pigeon if I have to.

I love the lube you make, if you can make it less messy, I will use your lube in everything I shoot until I quit shooting - which ought to be a hell of a long time ;)

Which would work out great for me, one lube means i never have to adjust my heater settings, I don't have to clean out the sizers and I don't have to deal with the little jab every time I size and load a bullet because I know there is a better lube out there just because I choose the lesser of two evils. I would rather clean barrels than break bullets apart when stuck together.

Please keep us posted.
________
BMW M1 HISTORY (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_M1)

[Newtire]

At the risk of getting shot, has anyone tried Richard Lee's case sizing lube as a boolit lube? He says it is the lube a major ammo manufacturer uses on their .22 ammo in one of his loading books.

As for LLA...it's like I used to tell my former wife when I was cooking, "If you don't like the smoke & mess then stay out of the kitchen." The food always tasted great to me & the kids.

[mike in co]

I ship mostly in the USPS flat rate envelope. I started getting many packages lost or torn open and only some of the stuff getting delivered. I then started getting tracking #'s on all packages and have only lost 1 in the past 4 months.
Shortly after starting tracking #'s on everything, I started double packing also. I use the Tyvek envelopes(very strong) and pack the lube in flat and tape up with a shipping label on it, then put into the flat rate envelope. That way if the flat rate envelope gets torn off, it still has a shipping label on it.
Part of the bad thing is that the Post office will only let you put one piece of tape across the flap and it's not supposed to wrap around to the back side.
I'm sure the biggest help was the tracking 3's. Then you could tell where it got lost, so I think they take better care of the package with the tracking #.
I started useing click n ship to print postage from home. It comes with a free tracking #, but another nice thing is that I have to tape the label on so I use extra tape.

On the lube topic, I've started working on a hard lube. Now I'll have to spend more time at the range;) Oh darn it.

you have found my process.
i do on occasion work for the post office and specifically in priority mail.
i print my own postage/address label and pick up the free tracking.

may i suggest you use clear packing tape....harder to see...less complaints......
and
the next time a postal emplyee tells you there is a limit on tape, ask to see it in print!
i ship lead..it comes with three bands of straping tape and several pcs of 2" packing tape.

all my flat rate envelopes are taped on all four seams, and then a pcs across and around the flap!

mike in co
THE COLORADO BRASS COMPANY

[testhop]

ok kids play nice
no fighting

[Bass Ackward]

As for LLA...it's like I used to tell my former wife when I was cooking, "If you don't like the smoke & mess then stay out of the kitchen." The food always tasted great to me & the kids.


Newt,

I have seen a lot of things on this board, that didn't make sense to me, that I have tried. But LLA on mashed potatoes ain't gonna happen. :grin:

Can't touch that.

[Newtire]

I'm getting pretty confused now...time to take my medication I think.

[Silverbullit]

On the lube topic, I've started working on a hard lube. Now I'll have to spend more time at the range;) Oh darn it.

Realize this is an old thread but I'm still curious, did you ever find a hard lube version of your carnuba red? *holding my thumbs*

[CPL Lou]

Here ya go:
http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5


Realize this is an old thread but I'm still curious, did you ever find a hard lube version of your carnuba red? *holding my thumbs*

CPL Lou

[pcmacd]

then taped up and did some more

You should work for the Postal Service.

My first belly laugh of the day.

[ddixie884]

Giggle, giggle............

[LAH]

My first belly laugh of the day.

When I was shipping bullets I came to understand how abusive people & equipment could be on small heavy packages. Had a few delivered & the customer's reply was the package arrived but was leaking bullets.