Can we discuss the .454?

[44man]

As you know I have found some starting loads of H110 and 296 have failed to ignite with the SR primer of any persuasion with cast boolits. Only full charges have lit off every time and I cured it by going to a LP mag primer in cut down .460 brass or opening the pockets in .454 brass.
Other sites have disputed this but in every case the bullets were jacketed with a good tension and enough crimp to ruin brass in a short order. I agree that condom bullets can be worked over the range of loads.
But I shoot cast, bottom line.
Can anyone else relate experiences with the SR primers and cast loads less then max?
Other powders are not in this so don't say 2400, etc, works fine.
I feel this is a 100% safety issue so the .454 owner will not get in trouble while working cast boolits with the slow ball powders.

[BABore]

My shooting buddy's kid has a Taurus 454 that I supplied him some ccast boolits for. My buddy loaded them up with starting charges of WW 296 and worked up. The first 2-3 powder increments had hangfires or fizzles. Rifle primers were used. I was there witnessing the shooting so I would agree with what you said on this. As far as I know, he never had these issues with jacketed.

[Ed K]

So where is this going? Would a suggestion be to use 2400/HS-6, etc. for anything but top end loads reserving the slow ball powder for maximum-only top loads? Obviously load development on those powders proceeding with caution for squibs, etc. and the final loads being wrung-out somewhat rigorously before taking to the field?

[44MAG#1]

Hardly shoot the 454's anymore. But I shot several pounds of H110 using an LBT WLN-GC of 340 gr weight using the Federal 205 primer with charges that normally ran 26.5 gr with never, no not one hangfire, dud, malfunction or any other problem.
Since you did not want to mention 2400 I will. The ONLY squib I had was with 2400 and a 300 gr cast with a fairly light load for the 454 on a morning that was probably 20 degrees or so. Also with a Fed 205. The gun and ammo stayed in my truck all night so the gun and ammo was cold.
My way of looking at it is this. If I want to shoot a 454 I will shoot upper end loads. Mostly between 44 Mag full power loads and full 454 loads. If I want to shoot 1000 to 1200 with the heavy bullets I will use my Blackhawk or Red Hawk 45 Colt.
That way I am not concerned with a solution to my non existant problem.
Now if one is truly concerned shoot Starline 45 Colt brass all the time, keep the chambers real clean and load to 44 Mag pressure levels and have at it. One may give up a slight amount of accuracy with the slightly longer bullet jump but who cares. Most on here could never tell the difference in the field anyway.
My 340 LBT can be crimped in the first lube groove and it will give the same OAL as a 454 round in 45 Colt brass.
So it goes for me. Just lil ol me.

[44man]

It is strange to hear even 2400 had a funny load. I did not expect that.
My range of work with the .454 is limited but eye opening. To have boolits and unburned powder in the bore was scary. Without experience, another shot could have been taken.
Granted the .454 was made for hot loads but not everyone needs them so I feel obligated to warn my fellow shooters.
The primer can be a problem.

[454PB]

I posted a thread on this subject some time ago, and apparently others have had similar experiences. I have stopped using the slow burning ball powders with light boolits.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838

[44man]

I posted a thread on this subject some time ago, and apparently others have had similar experiences. I have stopped using the slow burning ball powders with light boolits.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838
More good info, but I was using heavy boolits with super case tension and crimp.

[Frank]

44man:
To have boolits and unburned powder in the bore was scary. Without experience, another shot could have been taken.

This is a Public Service Announcement. If you are loading cast boolits in .454 Casull, use caution. .454 Casull uses small rifle primers which can lead to faulty ignition and stuck boolits in the bore.

Keep the above message flashing at the bottom of the screen on Fox News, ball games, outdoor channel, etc. :coffeecom

[Tom W.]

I haven't had any problems with mine, but I don't shoot too many H110 loads yet. I will as soon as I run out of Lil' Gun though. And those loads were with cast and not quite top end..

[subsonic]

Just out of curiosity, did you try small pistol primers - mag and regular?

Is there a chart somewhere that shows primer power and flame by brand/type?

[Groo]

44man
Groo here
When I loaded 454 a bunch I had no problems with 296 with any bullet or
book load,,,,, BUT ,,My cast was usually 300+ gr and heavy and most of all the cases were
original FA's with LP ..
I see that the newer cases use SR and by the charge weights look to be thicker
[ hold less powder]
I also found that new 45 colt cases loaded VERY heavy with 454 dies would
last as long as 454 cases...
Could there be a differenct between the old and new 454 cases
and could the 460 be built more like the old 454 cases??????????????? Never cut one to see.

[kmag]

Shot some 454's last week loaded with 316gr. lead rnfp over 25 gr. H110, used cci sr primers that are probably 25 years old, They all fired with no problem, just didn't go where I wanted them to. I shot these in a Puma 454 rifle. I think the 25gr. load was a starting load in the manual I was using.

[Heavy lead]

I've been doing some testing with the SRH, 300 grain boolits, 2400 and Remington 5.5 Small Pistol Magnum primers (fairly low powered primers) and Federal Small Pistol Magnum primers. Of course this gets off topic from 44 mans original post, but my goal is to have a 300 grain boolit at about 1400 fps without all the damn muzzle blast of the .454. I have come to the conclusion I do not like the .454, but this is one accurate revolver, if I want something with more power I'll shoot the .475, I just don't like all the pressure in a wheel gun.
So far I'm getting good consistant accuracy, but not done testing yet.

[Tom W.]

I'm getting 1760 with a 300 gr cast and SR primers with the Lil' Gun, and no leading, but I'm shooting an Encore. As you said, it's very accurate, but not at all pleasant to shoot. I usually stop after 50 rounds....

[LUCKYDAWG13]

im shootin cast 300gr using 27.5 gr of H110 CCI 400 S,R,P, in a encore
this load works great in my barrel scarry accurate

[stubshaft]

My standard load for my FA83 is 30.5 296 behind a 300gr LFN. I have fired thousands of rounds and have never had a single hangfire or misfire with SR primers. NOT, to say that someone else might have had problems with ignition.

[Lloyd Smale]

I havent had a squib but have seen some weird chorno readings with lighter loads of 110. Anymore i dont use alot of it. I use more aa9 and 2400 and 4227 then i do 110/296. When i use 110/296 or aa9 i dont use starting loads and in most cases i use a mag primer. I just did a bunch of accuracy testing with the 454 using both large primer pockets with cci 350s and small with ww small rifle std. primers. I used 110 wc820 aa9 and wc297. All powders that are known to be hard to light off. I tried every load with both primers and was hopping to see a big advantage with the lg primers but just didnt. Id like to call it a wash as it was real close. One load one primer would do a bit better and then next time the other primer would win and there was no rhymm or reason to the results. If anything i had slightly better accuracy with the small rifle primer. I didnt chronograph them as my chrono is about 50 miles away at my buddys house. To be honest it was work to make the brass on my rcbs power trimmer and unless a guy came up with a better way to do it like 44man did it just isnt worth the bother. One thing i did notice but it could be just my gun is with the large primers my fired rounds looked like they were very close to have peirced primers with the hottter loads using any of the powders.

[44man]

I don't think a rifle or pistol will have the problem, just the revolver. I feel it was the SR primer blowing the boolit out, increasing air space. It is like downloading 296 in any caliber.
I did not try a SP primer to see if reduced primer pressure would help.
Like most of you, I don't want to run any gun to 60,000 PSI but I did load over book max to what I figure was 55,000 to see what the LP mag primer did. It was fine, looked normal.
I did this with a SRH with a longer cylinder so I can't say the shorter Freedom cylinder will act the same. I had to pound out 5 boolits and was surprised how far up the bore a boolit was driven with the full powder charge behind it. The back of the powder was a little discolored. Those that did light made shotgun patterns at 50 yards.
Working with the Fed 155, the most accurate were still very close to max loads of 26 gr of 296 with the LBT 335 gr boolit. With starting loads I was still getting groups that got better as I worked up.
Would a boolit with a deeper crimp groove help? Not sure but I hate to leave this go because I don't want someone to fire another shot with a stuck boolit in the bore. Even worse would be using the wrong load with a bear on top of you. Stick a boolit and keep shooting, the bear does not care if your gun blows up, you will be dead! :holysheep
Lloyd has done some work and it is true that once the powder charge is correct, accuracy will be close with both primers. My problems started with 23 gr of 296 with the 335 gr LBT and got better with increased charges. The LP mag primer allowed full ignition with 23 gr.
Those that load balls to the wall at the start or buy factory ammo will never see the problem.
We did find a problem with some factory cast loads in that boolits were pulling from recoil and would tie up the gun. They had VERY strong crimps. Not a single one of my loads pulled from recoil.
With limited .454 experience, I still have fear to keep everyone safe even if I only had one failure, one is too many. Even boolits pulling from recoil can get you in big trouble with a bear.

[44man]

Primers, primers, primers! :veryconfu
I posted before about working loads with a S&W .45 ACP revolver. NOTHING would group like I expected with a bunch of cast boolits.
I sat at the bench and stared at the primer until it dawned on me that the LP primer is too large for the small case. I shimmed some brass for the SP primer and groups were cut by 2/3's. Then John found brass for the SP primer and it also improved groups with his 1911.
Samo, samo, samo, use jacketed and you might never see it. Cast was moving out of the brass before full ignition just from primer pressure.

[44man]

I can tell you why I get static on other sites! :mrgreen: It is not because my work is wrong, it is because I bad mouthed Freedom problems of which I will never apologize for. So be it, I tell only the truth no matter how much I am hated for it.
Have I made a mistake? No, truth is more important. Safety comes first before truth. I will never back down with any problem found with any load or gun because I care about everyone. If I prevent one man from harm, my job is done and I feel the same about saving a man from wasting his money.
To dispute what I and others have found with primers just because of my views that hurt feelings can present a danger that I don't want to be involved with.
To hold a grudge against anyone can put someone in danger and is why this is the best site. All of you forgive and think for yourselves.
Please relate more about primers and any problems. It is no joke and could save a hand, an eye or a life. Yes, that little thing is that important!

[truckboss]

My old load was 23.0 grn. of h110 335grn wfngc lbt.my new load is 24.0,wsr for primers,never had a squib.I have a fa model 83 with throats at .453 and a grove at 4.53,bullets sized to .453.Moderate lee factory crimp.Maybe
i'm lucky but this load works every single time with good accuracy.

[44MAG#1]

As I said previously I have used several pounds of H110 in my 454's with never a squib, hangfire or blooper of any kind. Not to say someone else hasn't. As I also said before the only one squib I had was with 2400 and the primer drove the base of the bullet slightly below flush with the rear of the barrel. But, that was MY FAULT by going way to low and I knew it was when I did it.
If one intentionally goes below a safe drop in charge weight then one assumes all responsibility for doing so especially if one is warned to the contrary. To me that is simple common knowlege just like trying to take a curve at a speed one knows is grossly unsafe and then piles up in the ditch line.
There is no load that I know of that is perfect due to a human having invlovement in its creation either at home loading or factory loading. Look at the recalls on factory ammo and powders over the last 4 or 5 years.
I say if one is highly concerned over the aforementioned problems with the 454 Casull that "44 man" has so graciously brought to our attention one should either stick to near full powder loads or sell off everyone they own.
That way one will only have to be concerned about the other dangers in life that present themselves to us each day.
And, I also predict this will turn into a disertation on the erratic, sloppy, poor accuracy and the incorrect twist rate of the 454's before this thread is over with with maybe 80 to 100 posts with nothing solved and much argueing.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have some new SR brass to try and will do so..
I suspect that the FA 454 is one of those beast that was built for pressure
and just likes it there. [ after all it was the "gun you can't blow up"]
It was also the first to run at top rifle pressures!!! [some of mine would go way over 60k]
We now make power somewhat differently . Big cases,long heavy bullets, bigger bore.
not 45cal, 250ish bullets,standard[about] cases and mega-pressure at warp speed..

44man Keep that info coming [take a close look at the cases inside and the flash hole]

[44man]

My top concern is safety for all of my friends. Just one problem will make me sit up straight. I get like a bulldog shaking a rat.
I rub a few the wrong way and get trounced on but darn it, you are important to me.
If one single shot has a problem, please, please find out why and never, ever do the same thing again.
The .454 is a good caliber and is accurate, just assume nothing that you think up is safe.
It feels strange to tell a man to GO UP with a load but the gun is really safer at the top end when using slow powders.

[subsonic]

I wonder what effect tight throats would have on this problem? They would add more resistance to the boolit leaving the case - might help get the fire going before the boolit moved very far? I know on some of the new Scandium J-frames, the throats are intentionally tight to help prevent bullet pull from recoil.

[44MAG#1]

Safety is a major concern no matter what we do in life. That is nothing new. I will try to be safe traveling to work tonight and try to be safe at work too.
Your concern to warn us of the potential for a dangerous situation is very commendable and should be applauded by us all.
There is a possibility for a safety anomoly in loading any cartridge. That is the reason for the warnings in loading books and elsewhere that is dedicated to us "rolling our own".
Your concern for us 454 Casull owners has been demonstrated more than once on this forum, through your experimentation with this caliber ,and I am sure others on here surely appreciate as much as I do.
No doubt from any of us of your concern.
But could this be a way to get into something else other than what is on the surface?
As was mentioned before this could be made a stickey and listed at the head of all forum departments as to the dangers of the 454 Casull with slow powders and small rifle primers.
That way it would serve many owners and potential owners of the 454 Casull rather than be brought up every now and then as we move forward.

[white eagle]

I don't thin he meant it as a WARNING
just more of a personal observation that he shared with us
I may be wrong though

[44MAG#1]

warn·ing   /ˈwɔrnɪŋ/ Show Spelled
[wawr-ning] Show IPA

–noun
1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence, appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
2. something that serves to warn, give notice, or caution: We fired a warning at the intruders.
3. Meteorology . an announcement from the U.S. National weather Service alerting the public that a storm or other weather-related hazard is imminent and that immediate steps should be taken to protect lives and property. Compare advisory ( def. 5 ) , storm warning ( def. 2 ) , watch ( def. 20 ) .
–adjective
4. serving to warn, advise, caution: a warning bell.

[44man]

I don't thin he meant it as a WARNING
just more of a personal observation that he shared with us
I may be wrong though
I feel it should be a warning. I have seen several guns ruined when a boolit got stuck and another was fired behind it.
What scares me most is all the resistance and posts saying that they have no problem only to find they are loading something different, like jacketed or a different powder or H110 and 296 loaded at max.
That is not the way to answer a potential problem, using personal attacks to prove me wrong. I really do get a lot of personal attacks on other sites.
You fellas will stop and look and think. It is all I ask.
Since the standard procedures are to start low and work up loads, a new .454 owner or a new fella to loading and casting can get in hot water.
The SR primer does work but there is a window where it can fail. Be aware of it and make sure all boolits leave the gun. Even a boolit change can cause it.
I had one shot fail in my 45-70 by reducing SR 4759 for a certain boolit and the load also had Dacron filler.
My friend and I both had SEE events with our Swedes using the standard, accurate load of 46 gr of 4831 and we shot that load for years.
I do not take any of this lightly. Never shrug your shoulders with a failure, report it in detail. You just might save a friend.

[44MAG#1]

Wouldn't you say in all honesty that we have been warned?
Now that you have mentioned that you have had problems with other calibers we have been warned that there is a potential problem with other calibers, not only the 454 Casull, when you leave the "window" of the optimal performance zone of any load for any caliber.
Thank you very much, you have now done your part, and we will keep your warning, or may we say "observation" to use another descriptive term, in mind when we load for the 454 Casull, and obiviously other calibers as well.
Thanks for the "heads up".

[Matthew 25]

Thanks 44man, I've appreciated your posts on the subject. My new 454BFR is giving me fits and thanks to this line of posts I'm encouraged-I have a couple new ideas.

[Frank]

44man is just explaining how to make the cartridge work with cast boolits. If it is so good loaded at the higher end, how come nobody posts a group? His contribution would make for a nice article in Handloader. But then again, somebody has to know how to shoot off the bench to be able to see the difference. A 25-yd group will tell them nothing. The only thing to make believers is for for people to try 44man's modification, work up some loads and show their groups.

[44MAG#1]

Now, as I knew would happen, the door has been opened, or the challenge has be made to show groups in the form of photos so they can be disected, mulled over.
If this is about safety lets keep it safety oriented and if the challenge of groups in the form of photos be started let it be started in a in a seperate thread.
I am sure 44 man would not want this to appear that this thread was really started to give way, or should we say started, to use " safety" as a means to get into the tired old "my group is better than your group" or "my shooting technique is better than your technique" or the "The Keith bullet cannot be made to shoot" or the "my alloy is the answer" debate or debacle.
I'm betting this post cannot stay on the original subject concerning safety of the loads.
I did go back and read the original post and accuracy wasn't mention just safety.
Please don't make 44 man look like he was trying to sneek in a topic under the guise of something else as important as safety.
I have more respect for "44man" than to think he would do that.

[Frank]

There's no need for a "challenge." How about simply building a model for testing a theory, that LPM primers perform better than SR primers in .454 with cast boolits? Or maybe it's in the reverse. To properly test the model requires an adequate range of 50 yds, a bag, a rest, both types of primer types utilized, a gun and a shooter. The test will test loads, low to high, for differences in accuracy and safety, with the two primer systems. In the end, we will be able to see through real results which system works the best. How about it?

[44MAG#1]

The safety of a load has nothing to do with
the accuracy of a load. While it is possible to test accuracy at the same time we are not talking accuracy. We are discussing safety let's keep it at that if we can

[Snyd]

325gr+, CCI 450's, Hogdgon book loads, min to max+ of H110. I've never had a squib. For lighter boolits and loads I just use Unique and CCI 400's.

[Frank]

44MAG#1:
The safety of a load has nothing to do with
the accuracy of a load. While it is possible to test accuracy at the same time we are not talking accuracy. We are discussing safety let's keep it at that if we can
OK. Talk about the safety aspect only. That's a good topic in itself.

[44man]

Safety ONLY! And it is not because some have no problem because of something different, maybe just the boolit used.
I don't want to stray from the fact that a failure to ignite can happen.
THIS DOES NO HARM if you recognize it and remove the boolit with a brass rod.
This is the same as telling you to make sure every case has just one powder charge in it before seating boolits. It is not to scare anyone.
Just pay attention when working loads and if the gun does not sound or feel right, check it and change the load QUICK. Pull the rest of that load. INCREASE H110 or 296 to a max book load.
My greatest fear is someone shooting another load behind a stuck boolit.
This can happen with any caliber but seems to be a little frightful with the SR primer and even a primer make change might cause it.
Nothing wrong with the .454, just pay attention.
Just what saves the .454 with a load that can fail? It is because nobody is nuts enough to rap off 5 or six shots as fast as they can with an untested load or for that matter ANY load! :bigsmyl2: OUCH!

[Groo]

Groo here
The 454 problems you are seeing may be related to what is called detonation.
I believe that what happens is the primer pushes the bullet out before
the powder gets started and it sticks in the BC gap pluging the cylinder
and making a pipebomb..
296/h110 is so slow that it will not light at all, as Keith wrote about
2400 and a light crimp or low bullet pull.. just a bunch of unburned powder
everywhere [usually Yellow].
Lighter loads of powder may not be enough to stop the SR primer
from pushing the bullet out of a 454 case, where as the heavy load just
sucks up all that push like a buffer...
Any time that someone used rifle primers in a handgun case was
for high pressure loads aka full or almost full cases..
Now we have shells that use Rifle primers as a mater of course and
the edges are showing...
Ps
When JD Jones [ SSK ] designed cast heavies for the Fa 454
the intent was to slow down the bullet to the point where
the Lead could stand the speeds [pressures still in the 50 to 60k range]
and as a result most of the case volume was used up with the deep
seated long bullet [340 gr] also harder to move out the case.

44man KEEP It UP!!!!!
With the 454 this is showing up it will not be long before
we could see this in other high pressure rounds.....:groner:

[44MAG#1]

Here is, to me the meat of the subject, that anytime you take upon yourself to experiment outside of the window of design of ANY cartridge you run the risk of an increase of problems NO MATTER what the cartridge.
The 454 Casull has maybe a more narrow "window" with the slow powders than others. Does that make it any more dangerous than any other once you get OUTSIDE the window either on the low side or the high ?
I don't believe so. Narrow window doesn't mean that anything is wrong with the cartridge just that it has a narrow window. Now if one want to beat a dead horse and try to say the narrow window itself is bad then lets discuss that as the problem.
To me it is no problem due to the fact that reliable reloading data has been published by several now on the 454 and the warnings that go with that data should be sufficient.
See trying to just pick one cartridge to make it a poster child of reloading problems is not really ethical because it can happen to many if not all cartridges once that window of optimal performance is breeched (see 44mans own admission or the problem he had with a 45/70 BFR and a "Swede. Could he have not picked one of those as the poster child to show what can and could happen when that "window" is breeched? Sure he could but he chose to emortalize the 454 Casull as the poster child.
There a problem with several handgun cartridge when lower charges are used. I'll give an example the 500 S&W. I tried a load that was slightly below the starting window of H4227 and had very eratic velocities with it. Now keep in mind I was not much lower that the published starting load using 440 gr bullet. To check this out I fired 5 with the gun held down and slowly brought up and fired each of the five like that and the velocity AVERAGE was 100 fps lower that when the gun was held up and slowly lowered and fired 5 like that that. This using the CCI 250 Mag primer. What MAY have happened if I went a half to one grain lower?
I don't know as I went back to the MIn charge and the gun performed okay in the vel. area then.
Guess what I was BELOW the window of optimal performance with THAT powder and primer and bullet weight. What was the problem??????????????????? MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. I chose to do that MYSELF. Was it a gun and load problem? No it was a Me problem by doing what I was doing.
I have had the same thing happen with the 45 Colt in a Blackhawk using H110 doing the same experiment. As much as a 200 fps difference in the average. Gun and load problem? No it was me trying to use 17.5 gr H110 which was BELOW the "widow" by quite a bit. Primers? CCI 350"s.
Could one not pick the 45 Colt as the poster child or maybe the 500 S&W? I believe so.
But it was easier to pick a cartridge that has a narrow window to work with by choosing to go outside of the "window".
So what is really the problem here really? One going outside the "window" by choice or by being forced too?
Kinda like the guy that buys a 1/2 ton pick-up and insists on hauling 2 ton loads of rock on it, using it outside the design "window" of the truck, and then using it as the poster child as to why he had a problem when the truck did not perform like a dump truck.
Now do any other calibers have a problem when that "window" is breeched or is the 454 Casull the only one?
That is really the question in "safety" .
Legitimate poster child or should others be included? Operator induced problem or caliber induced problem?
Has any other had a problem with any other caliber when he chose to venture outside the "window" or is the 454 Casull the only one we have?
I know with me and my adventures I have had problems.
Any one else? I would really be interested in them.

[44man]

44 mag has said it well. Please relate any and all problems with any caliber. Even just one.

[smokingguns]

I shoot a ruger 454 and use AA9 and never had a misfire
shoot only cast in it

[Lloyd Smale]

why then start a problem with your post? Im not trying to start a fight or raise any hell with you but your advocating loading 110 to a level its not intended to be loaded too and is recomended not to be done in about every loading manual and trying to get it to work by fooling with bandaids like switching primers. If you want a powder level that is as low as 23 grains of 110 gives you you should be loading with 2400 or hs6 not 110/296. What gets me is when someone tells guys to do it.



Same goes for aa9. It just doesnt work well downloaded and you will read even in handloader magazine people recomended you do it. 4227 is a bit more flexible. It will take a bit of downloading and still ignite but to be honest ive never got real good accuracy doing it. I guess i have to ask what the purpose is of making a powder that is not designed for a pressure level serve in that role. I dont think theres to many here that cant buck up for the price of a lb of powder. You want to give safe advice dont recomend downloading those ball powders or trying to get away with standard primers instead of mag. Sure you may find a load or two that shoots better with std then mag primers but eventually your going to run into trouble doing it. If not you maybe the guy reading your post that lives in alaska where its below zero and loads your load. then you get the gun that reads your post and figures heck he down loads 110 and he also recomends std primers. why cant i combine both on this beautiful below zero day.


Personaly ive never run into an issue using small rifle primers in the 454 but sure have using std primers with 11o/296 and downloading 110/296 and aa9/wc820. Anymore i run both powders right near the top end and use cci 350s to insure ignition and if a load needs to be tuned for acccuracy theres many other ways other then switching to a std primer to do it. Like varying which bullet i use or the alloy or going up or down a grain in powder. thing is with loads like that they go off in any weather and I dont get velocitys laying down near as much in the cold which will totaly change the accuracy of that load anyway. Sorry for the rant but it twists me in a knot when some handloaders want to use one powder to load everything from 22hornets to 44mags to 300 mags and even use the same primer for it all. If you cant afford to buy what it takes to load correctly find another hobby!
I can tell you why I get static on other sites! :mrgreen: It is not because my work is wrong, it is because I bad mouthed Freedom problems of which I will never apologize for. So be it, I tell only the truth no matter how much I am hated for it.
Have I made a mistake? No, truth is more important. Safety comes first before truth. I will never back down with any problem found with any load or gun because I care about everyone. If I prevent one man from harm, my job is done and I feel the same about saving a man from wasting his money.
To dispute what I and others have found with primers just because of my views that hurt feelings can present a danger that I don't want to be involved with.
To hold a grudge against anyone can put someone in danger and is why this is the best site. All of you forgive and think for yourselves.
Please relate more about primers and any problems. It is no joke and could save a hand, an eye or a life. Yes, that little thing is that important!

[44man]

why then start a problem with your post? Im not trying to start a fight or raise any hell with you but your advocating loading 110 to a level its not intended to be loaded too and is recomended not to be done in about every loading manual and trying to get it to work by fooling with bandaids like switching primers. If you want a powder level that is as low as 23 grains of 110 gives you you should be loading with 2400 or hs6 not 110/296. What gets me is when someone tells guys to do it.



Same goes for aa9. It just doesnt work well downloaded and you will read even in handloader magazine people recomended you do it. 4227 is a bit more flexible. It will take a bit of downloading and still ignite but to be honest ive never got real good accuracy doing it. I guess i have to ask what the purpose is of making a powder that is not designed for a pressure level serve in that role. I dont think theres to many here that cant buck up for the price of a lb of powder. You want to give safe advice dont recomend downloading those ball powders or trying to get away with standard primers instead of mag. Sure you may find a load or two that shoots better with std then mag primers but eventually your going to run into trouble doing it. If not you maybe the guy reading your post that lives in alaska where its below zero and loads your load. then you get the gun that reads your post and figures heck he down loads 110 and he also recomends std primers. why cant i combine both on this beautiful below zero day.


Personaly ive never run into an issue using small rifle primers in the 454 but sure have using std primers with 11o/296 and downloading 110/296 and aa9/wc820. Anymore i run both powders right near the top end and use cci 350s to insure ignition and if a load needs to be tuned for acccuracy theres many other ways other then switching to a std primer to do it. Like varying which bullet i use or the alloy or going up or down a grain in powder. thing is with loads like that they go off in any weather and I dont get velocitys laying down near as much in the cold which will totaly change the accuracy of that load anyway. Sorry for the rant but it twists me in a knot when some handloaders want to use one powder to load everything from 22hornets to 44mags to 300 mags and even use the same primer for it all. If you cant afford to buy what it takes to load correctly find another hobby!
I never used a standard SR primer, just every make of SR mag primers. The reason for starting with 23 gr with the 335 gr boolit was accuracy testing. Also safety as with any gun where you never jump to the max at the start. Those book starting loads have a reason.
Why load 296 or H110? What is the caliber for except long range shooting and hunting? If we wanted to shoot a .45, we would do that. Just why buy a .475, .500 JRH or .500 Linebaugh if you want to shoot 800 FPS? Why buy a .300 mag if you can get the 30-30 to shoot 1000 yards?

[Lloyd Smale]

ya but pal if your loading a 335 with 23 grains of 110 your basicaly loading what a guy can in the 45 colt. If you want to use a 454 like a 454 was designed youd be adding about 5 grains at least to that charge. No doubt on the top end powders like 110 296 and 297 are the best. But for downloading especially if your looking for an accuracy load there absolutely the wrong powders to use. Its about like loading a 300 weatherby down to 3030 ballistics using 870. It just doesnt work. Up the pressure to the level the 454 was designed to be load to and ww standard small rifle primers light of the charge just fine. Ive tried many small rifle primers both standard and mag and keep comming back to ww standards as they ususally give me the best accuracy. Guys loose sight of the fact that when the 454 was designed it wasnt designed to be a 45 colt it was designed to be the fastest shooting sixgun on the planet. To me its about like pulling two plug wires off a hemi cuda and complaining that it is missing and lacks in power.

[Groo]

Groo here
I had a bad time with 38 sp Unique powder and a Speer 146 gr half jacket..
The starting load was so low that the bullet stuck in a 4in
and just made it out of a 2 in.. usually had a lot of unburned powder
[ yellow flakes] increased the charge by one gr and all was well...
I learned NOT to load less that starting at any time..
In the FA 454 [not a ruger or tarus] I have have no problems going
to max listed loads as the original loadings were so much heaver...

Ps ... The test that I read about when I first got mine [ one of the first
adj sight ones] was a 250 gr cast and a full case of bullseye !!!!!!!
NOT RECOMENDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
The case split and the screws were loose but no damage to the gun..
If you cant do it with bullseye you can't do it..

Sticking bullets in the barrel is a different matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[44man]

Groo here
I had a bad time with 38 sp Unique powder and a Speer 146 gr half jacket..
The starting load was so low that the bullet stuck in a 4in
and just made it out of a 2 in.. usually had a lot of unburned powder
[ yellow flakes] increased the charge by one gr and all was well...
I learned NOT to load less that starting at any time..
In the FA 454 [not a ruger or tarus] I have have no problems going
to max listed loads as the original loadings were so much heaver...

Ps ... The test that I read about when I first got mine [ one of the first
adj sight ones] was a 250 gr cast and a full case of bullseye !!!!!!!
NOT RECOMENDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
The case split and the screws were loose but no damage to the gun..
If you cant do it with bullseye you can't do it..

Sticking bullets in the barrel is a different matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well said but the loads I started with were LISTED STARTING LOADS. Is that not the proper way to work a gun?
I have never gone to a max load with any gun, EVER, at the start.

[44MAG#1]

I see the argument, not a discussion, starting. No one that has a hint of knowlege will believe for a moment that all published data is always correct. It may have been at the time due to the WAY the data was collect. Or, with the components that were used it may have been correct.
It is known that ballistic labs will sometimes make sure the powder is orientated the same way each shot if the load is sloshing around. This IS a KNOWN fact. Temperature and humidity are controlled in the lab. I am sure many other thing too that we are not aware of.
So if a load doesn't work at book minimum use some gray matter and jack up the load a little until it does. No big deal, no end of the world, nothing to get bent out of shape on just use the ole brain.
No need to malign a certain cartridge just because it does not follow text book loading or ones own narrow mindedness.
Be ever cautious.
Now I know that Hodgdon list 23 gr as a starting load for the 454 Casull with a 335 grainer their max is only 45000 cup too. I would have never started at 23 myself as I know the cartridge after having shot several pounds of H110 through mine. Not counting the 2400 and 296. With the 335 to 340 gr i would have started at no less than 24.5 maybe 25 gr. STILL looking for problems as I would ANY cartridge I was developing a load for.
How hard is that??????????????
Evidentally pretty hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[44man]

44mag, understand, I do not own a .454 of my own and needed a start. Just where would I start?
Don't you see that a LP mag primer solved all the problems and even a standard LP primer lit the powder? The standard primer was just less accurate.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
I see about the LP primer. Take my word on it. at 1300 to 1400 with a 335 gr use 45 Colt startline brass LP primers and H110 and have at it. Just keep the chambers clean and it will be okay. Over that use 454 Cases and SR primers and H110 and have at that. Or have a bullet made with a crimp groove that is right for the 45 Colt that will give an OAL same a a 454 cartridge and have at it.
Things are not as complicated as you make them out to be and it does nothing to further your
concern about this subject.
I can assure you that most 454 Casull shooters have firmly made up their mind on this subject of 454 loads.
Now your concern for our safety is commendable and I applaude you for that but we have been warned now several times.
You have done your part that is all you can do. You are not our keeper. We are adults and you must realize that and not try to carry the burdens of the rest of us on your shoulders.
I mentioned previously I would have STARTED at no less than 24.5 GR and went up to mybe 28 in a Ruger and 29.5 to 30 in FA.
Now if I wanted , had to use H110 I would have went to Starline 45 Colt brass and started at 23 and went up to maybe 26.5 and saw what that would do.. But I can also seat my 340 LBT - WLN-GC on the second crimp groove and it is the same length as a 454 Cartridge.
But I would use the normal crimp groove for the 23.0 gr to 26.5 gr loads.
Plain and simple.
I don't understand this is so simple.

PS:

Now let me add this. I am going to the range, I have to drive to it, I have some 45 Auto Rim loads I loaded with 5.6 gr Unique with a Fed 150 primer, Mihec 270 SAA bullet that weights 285 from my WW's and Starline 45 Auto Rim brass. also a hand ful of 45 Colts loaded with a 340 LBT_WLN_GC bullet, I just loaded, with 24.5 gr H110 and a Fed 150 primer and Starline brass.
I have tried to execise due care in producing these rounds.
Now where will the most danger lie waiting for me? On the highway to and from the range or on the range shooting this ammo?
I'll bet it is on the highway. Now that is a real burden to bear safety wise.

[44man]

I see danger on the road because you know your guns and the loads.
I warn a new gun owner or a new reloader. I will make no excuse, not ever!

[44MAG#1]

"I warn a new gun owner or a new reloader. I will make no excuse, not ever!"

Now lets move on with this. You have warned us and any new people that have read this thread.
As you stated you had trouble with the 45/70 and SR4759 and a Swede with H4831. I have had trouble too with other calibers not to mention others I am aware of. Just an example a guy I know bought a 460 weatherby just to have a big boy to play with. He wanted a reduced load duplicating the 458 Win Mag. He took himself and his little cannon loaded with a charge slightly below the book min with IMR 3031 and shot a couple shots and on the third a click. He raised his head and boom. It was a hangfire. If he hadn't had his shoulder against the butt there would have been an expensive rifle rattling around on the concrete pad. I was there. Other cases I know of as a first hand witness. There is no one caliber that we can use as a "Poster Child" to to further this cause.
A more fitting warning, without the insinuations and speculations, would be "Beware of going too low in charge weight or above charge weight as due to different temperature conditions, powder lots, primer lots, bullet seating depths due to design, amounts of crimp and a whole host of other things problems can develope that can cause a bullet stuck in bore, or a high pressure excursion depending on the situation."
BE CAREFUL IS THE BOTTOM LINE.
How is that?
Lets move on now.

[PacMan]

The way i see it is that there are a lot of guys out there,including myself, shooting the 454 and the powders of choice most of the time is either 296 or H-110. As mentioned there are variables such as bullet weight , seating depth,bullet design etc. that affect the outcome. So having said that i think that 44MANs heads up is very benicical to all. Not saying everyone would have the same results because of all the variables but at least if you are aware of the possible problems you can be on the look out for them and prepared to deal with it.

Thanks 44MAN.

44Mag#1 not sure what your definition of moving on is!

[44MAG#1]

dwight hardy:
I mean lets move on and leave this topic for the time being. Enough has been said.
In other works lets pull " A Hank Snow".
This warning has been brought up several times before unless my memory has gone downhill quite rapidly in the last year or so.

[PacMan]

The best way to move on i have found is to not reply any longer to a post and others can do as they like.
As far as it being brought up several times i think that is good. Almost every day i see some one new on this site.

[44MAG#1]

dwight hardy:
44man loves it though. Haven't you noticed that? Some thrive on it.
I think it is a good post. Mostly though it get into a my alloy is better than yours, my bullet design is better than the Keith, my primer is better than yours, my dot sight is the only one, what is obturation, everyone can shoot 1 inch 100 yard groups, etc..
I think this was a good thread as it stayed on the subject and did not digress into a battle of my ideas are better than your ideas.
Good points were made. No one got mad. Everyone had a good time.
What else could one ask for?

[doghawg]

I believe posts #43 and #45 exactly nailed it and I base that on many pounds of H110/296 and years of loading for a pair of .454's.

So...+1 on what Lloyd said....

[Matthew 25]

Thought I'd add a couple cents.
It's been stated that reloading manuals don't have all the answers and that not all published data are correct or at least not complete. That being said and I believe generally agreed upon, why is it heresy to down load a round? Do we not all handload and cast because we're not completely satisfied with factory ammo and we're possibly not the group of people who believe all things published in manuals? I believe we're all united in this. Why then is it not acceptable to tinker (up or down) with a round, with due logic and diligence? My take here is the original point is "tinker safely and pay attention."
If this was started as a "44man makes the 454 the danger poster child" why did he ever mention similar issues with different rounds? Good grief!
Another point is whoever assumes that everyone who owns a 454 Casull owns it because they want super duper bison-exploding performance every time they pull the trigger is mistaken. I bought a BFR 454 because I've have heard and read that the BFR makes a fine revolver. So do I buy a BFR in a caliber I have 2 or 3 of already, or try something new, something with the capacity to be a real thumper? And if I want to tone it down I can. Yep, I can run 45 Colts, or maybe, if it's not against the unspoken rules of the universe, I'll reduce a 454 load. But, due to the fine advice offered by all sides of the subject, I won't be reducing a 296 load.

[Lloyd Smale]

matthew thats the right attitude. Why even use 110/296 297 or aa9 for reduced loads. Last i looked even a ruger in 454 was pushing 600 bucks. Now tell me how a guy who can afford to shell out 600 bucks cant afford another 20 bucks for the proper powder for the load level he wants to load. Guys will say i have 110 allready. Well if you do you have a gun you use it in that works. So use it there! How many posts do you see on the internet with guys asking what two powders can i buy and load everything. Sorry but theres no such thing. If you want to run 1100 fps loads in a 454 buy yourself a can of hs6 or 2400 and do it right. 99 percent of the time your going to get better accuracy because your running enough pressure to insure good powder burn. Also for the cheap guys trying to get buy with only buying two cans of powder, dont you realize that it cost less to put 14 grians of hs6 in a case then it does 23 grains of 110!

The 454 isnt my favorite round but its a good round IF YOU USE IT as it was intended to be used. Dick Cassul never designed this round to be a plinker he designed it to be a high performance big game round. If you want to download either by yourself a 45 colt (my guess is if you have a 454 you allready have a 45 colt anyway) or go to a 475 linebaugh which is more flexible and more powerful on the top end.

Funny thing is ive been shooting 454s on and off for about 20 years and have yet to have any squibs or hangfires and have allways had good accuracy with my 454s and the others ive shot. As a matter of fact my buddys old super redhawk 454 is the most accurate revolver ive ever shot. It easily shoots 1 inch 100 yard groups with a scope. Funny thing is it does it with small rifle primers. Why? because Al has been loading long enough to know what works and what doesnt in a specific cartridge. He doesnt force a gun to be something its not

Like i said earlier the 454 isnt my favorite round. I have one fa 454 and its no doubt the last one ill buy but it wont go anywhere. Its a good round for an experienced handloader to play with and hunt with. It isnt a beginners cartridge. Its a bit more finiky then a 475 but then the 500 linebaugh with its much bigger case is a bit more finiky too. Surely nothing so dramatic that any experienced handloader with a lick of common sense cant work around. The 454 is easy to deal with. Just load it with enough pressure to burn the powder properly.
Thought I'd add a couple cents.
It's been stated that reloading manuals don't have all the answers and that not all published data are correct or at least not complete. That being said and I believe generally agreed upon, why is it heresy to down load a round? Do we not all handload and cast because we're not completely satisfied with factory ammo and we're possibly not the group of people who believe all things published in manuals? I believe we're all united in this. Why then is it not acceptable to tinker (up or down) with a round, with due logic and diligence? My take here is the original point is "tinker safely and pay attention."
If this was started as a "44man makes the 454 the danger poster child" why did he ever mention similar issues with different rounds? Good grief!
Another point is whoever assumes that everyone who owns a 454 Casull owns it because they want super duper bison-exploding performance every time they pull the trigger is mistaken. I bought a BFR 454 because I've have heard and read that the BFR makes a fine revolver. So do I buy a BFR in a caliber I have 2 or 3 of already, or try something new, something with the capacity to be a real thumper? And if I want to tone it down I can. Yep, I can run 45 Colts, or maybe, if it's not against the unspoken rules of the universe, I'll reduce a 454 load. But, due to the fine advice offered by all sides of the subject, I won't be reducing a 296 load.

[44MAG#1]

"It's been stated that reloading manuals don't have all the answers and that not all published data are correct or at least not complete. That being said and I believe generally agreed upon, why is it heresy to down load a round? "
To my knowledge no one said one couldn't download any cartridge. There are powders that are better suited for downloading than others.
"Why then is it not acceptable to tinker (up or down) with a round, with due logic and diligence? My take here is the original point is "tinker safely and pay attention."
It is acceptable to tinker up and down. see above answer. Making sure one uses "due logic and diligence" which tells us that one can run into "certain situations" with certain powders quicker than others.
"If this was started as a "44man makes the 454 the danger poster child" why did he ever mention similar issues with different rounds? Good grief!"
He added that info about the other cartridges to show that others can cause problems too, but, he has brought up the 454 Casull more times than the others in the past. Hence the "poster child" correlation.
"point is whoever assumes that everyone who owns a 454 Casull owns it because they want super duper bison-exploding performance every time they pull the trigger is mistaken."
You are greatly correct in that statement. I generally loaded to an area between a full 44 Mag load and a full 454 Casull load in mine. There are people that want levels somewhat over 45 Colt Blackhawk levels so go th 45 Colt brass and keep the chambers clean. Starline brass is good to go for loads that would take anything on earth and the downloading won't have AS MANY downloading woes.
"So do I buy a BFR in a caliber I have 2 or 3 of already, or try something new, something with the capacity to be a real thumper? And if I want to tone it down I can. Yep, I can run 45 Colts, or maybe, if it's not against the unspoken rules of the universe, I'll reduce a 454 load. But, due to the fine advice offered by all sides of the subject, I won't be reducing a 296 load. "
You can buy anything you want . Many have two or three of the same caliber. No harm in that. I have six 45 Colts. Sure reduce the 454 but use a powder that is suitable. 2400 is downloadable easier than H110/W296. I had a problem with it simply because I went too far and I knew I was when I did it.
Reseach and development is the key with the research idea stressed heavily. Always expect the unexpected. Watch what one is doing. Realize that any cartridge can give unexpected problems and be prepared to correct them before continuing any further in the R&D area.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess what rubbed me wrong is someone badmouthing the 454 when its not a problem with the cartridge but with the loads being used. Used the way it was designed its a great round. Its about like complaining that the 30-378 weatherby is a dud of a round because it doesnt load down to 3030 ballistics using retumbo and a non magnum primer. Or badmouthing a fa gun because of one or two bad apples. I think if 44man was honest hed admitt a little of his dislike of the 454 comes from his dislike of FA in general. Bottom line is its hard to bad mouth a round that has taken every game animal in the world cleanly.

[44man]

I guess what rubbed me wrong is someone badmouthing the 454 when its not a problem with the cartridge but with the loads being used. Used the way it was designed its a great round. Its about like complaining that the 30-378 weatherby is a dud of a round because it doesnt load down to 3030 ballistics using retumbo and a non magnum primer. Or badmouthing a fa gun because of one or two bad apples. I think if 44man was honest hed admitt a little of his dislike of the 454 comes from his dislike of FA in general. Bottom line is its hard to bad mouth a round that has taken every game animal in the world cleanly.
No my friend, our work was with a SRH. My dislike from the start was only the primer.
But since you ask, my friend has a Freedom .454 and the left target was shot with his jacketed loads and some factory loads. The right target was shot with 5 of my cast and a primer change. 50 yards.
Would I complain about the gun?
Notice the boolit is also a PB.

[HiVelocity]

Just a photo and a comment.

I won this mold on "E-Bay" and it appears that it wasn't used much at all.

I will handload this 300 grain bullet with a healthy charge of Trail Boss for deer and hogs. Pistol is 454 Ruger SRH.

Just food for thought.

HV in SC

[stubshaft]

A healthy charge of Trailboss will get you about 700fps.

[Lloyd Smale]

did you try that same bullet and load out of that particular gun with a small primer? When i tested I used only one gun as i only own one 454 a 4 5/8s. I tested with many differnt loads and bullets and one load would like large primers and the next load would like small primers. It was like changing powder charge primer or bullet. Just another way to tune a load whiich is a good thing. Personaly i have to many other guns to fool with to get so involved with the 454 that i have to load loads with both large and small primers. Plus for me anyway the only way to make brass is cutting down 460 on my rcbs power trimmer which is a pain in the but. IT gets pretty boring after doing a couple hundred. I guess if i saw some kind of big differnce in accuarcy id buck up and do it but probably because i dont try to turn my 454 into a gallery gun I just dont see any advantage. Some day, probably next year now as crop damage deer hunting is starting soon and takes most of my time, I will try to do some side by side shootig with light loads to see if i notice a differnce with the two primers at that level like you have seen.QUOTE=44man;1296548]No my friend, our work was with a SRH. My dislike from the start was only the primer.
But since you ask, my friend has a Freedom .454 and the left target was shot with his jacketed loads and some factory loads. The right target was shot with 5 of my cast and a primer change. 50 yards.
Would I complain about the gun?
Notice the boolit is also a PB.[/QUOTE]

[44MAG#1]

Guess who made this statement:
"Slow powders with the SR mag primer opens another can of worms and you can only use max charges.
What do I like about the .454? NOTHING"

[Frank]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33163&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1307574696

If the target above is what a SR primer target looks like, I would steer clear of the .454 cartridge.

[44man]

did you try that same bullet and load out of that particular gun with a small primer? When i tested I used only one gun as i only own one 454 a 4 5/8s. I tested with many differnt loads and bullets and one load would like large primers and the next load would like small primers. It was like changing powder charge primer or bullet. Just another way to tune a load whiich is a good thing. Personaly i have to many other guns to fool with to get so involved with the 454 that i have to load loads with both large and small primers. Plus for me anyway the only way to make brass is cutting down 460 on my rcbs power trimmer which is a pain in the but. IT gets pretty boring after doing a couple hundred. I guess if i saw some kind of big differnce in accuarcy id buck up and do it but probably because i dont try to turn my 454 into a gallery gun I just dont see any advantage. Some day, probably next year now as crop damage deer hunting is starting soon and takes most of my time, I will try to do some side by side shootig with light loads to see if i notice a differnce with the two primers at that level like you have seen.QUOTE=44man;1296548]No my friend, our work was with a SRH. My dislike from the start was only the primer.
But since you ask, my friend has a Freedom .454 and the left target was shot with his jacketed loads and some factory loads. The right target was shot with 5 of my cast and a primer change. 50 yards.
Would I complain about the gun?
Notice the boolit is also a PB.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I did. The LP did much better.
But I have to warn you, the Freedom was worn off center badly and I worked on it. Rifling, throats and cone were worn on one side from an out of line cylinder that is too tight. Throats were also too small. The picture is a little deceiving because the gun was bad. Forgive me.
I did test my load with both primers after gun work and the LP shot better. I did not take a picture, Jerry has the targets. The SR primer did not come close.
To use one primer for one load and another for another load is just too much. Use the right primer all the time. Just work the load.
The LP mag will not bump the boolit from the brass as fast as the SR mag and has more fire. It can stand high pressures too. The case is a perfect size for a LP mag.

[44MAG#1]

As I said in post 22 this would turn into a big argument about accuracy with the attendant digs ect. Also see post. 66. I knew this would happen

[44man]

As I said in post 22 this would turn into a big argument about accuracy with the attendant digs ect. Also see post. 66. I knew this would happen
Is not good ignition the perfect quality for accuracy? Just what are you getting at?

[44MAG#1]

44man:
I was hoping that this thread would really be about safety, with all cartridges, as that is a vital concern for us all. That was the reason I suggested making a warning to be posted as a "sticky" for newbies to maybe read before thay got into some type of problem.
But, as always as evidenced by the many argumentive threads that have been made my you and others on accuracy, alloys, loads and a miriad of other things, this seems like an attempt to get into another one or those arguments where nothing is ever really accomplished, challenges are made, insinuations are made, people dig in their heels and are not going to be moved no matter what.
Your stance on the 454 Casull is known as you don't like it period . That is your right. But, we as owners of it and as one who like it have that right too.
Now we know good ignition is vital to accuracy. that goes without saying. So why even bring that up? That is like saying is not spark plugs essential to my motor so it will run?
But LP vs SR primers is not the problem that you made it out to be just so this can be turned into another diss on the 454.
If you are sincere about the safety of us lets leave this thread dealing WITH that and prove your sincerity by LEAVING it as that.
Do you know how?????????? If a post is made that isn't posted about true safety concerns don't reply to it. Don't succumb to the digs about accuracy, alloys, chamber throats, worn side to side, etc. etc. etc..
Now see if you are up to that challenge.
I bet you can't suck it up and do that.
We all know how you feel from other threads about the 454 Casull.
""Slow powders with the SR mag primer opens another can of worms and you can only use max charges.
What do I like about the .454? NOTHING"
But, you know , that statement speaks volumns and it really says it all.
Can you do it? I bet not.

[PacMan]

No one has said that this is about safety only.It has brought up good discussion and diffrent points which is good.

Seems that some have a bigger bone to pick with 44Man than he has to pick with the 454.

44mag#1 you keep comming back and have as many post as 44Man does but you keep advocating moving on. I am confussed as usuall.

I have been following and learning but this is BS.
Dwight

[Frank]

I'm a bystander who is simply interested in a topic about a cartridge, how does it do with boolits, what kind of load, etc. Safety and accuracy are all valid parts of an interesting discussion. What good is a discussion that doesn't include accuracy? Are we talking about wall hangers? :confused:

[white eagle]

seem as though some are looking for controversy
thats the way I see it

[44MAG#1]

I will answer the question in the morning

[RobS]

I own two 454 Casulls and no 45 Colts at the present time............why??? because I can't afford it, plain and simple. I know some here have gun safes full of firearms for this occasion or for that and some even have guns that have not even been shot or shot very little. Sorry fellas, I don’t fit in this category but I do know quite a few individuals who fit in my shoes.

Never the less, I use to own a Ruger BH in 45 Colt but horse traded this and that before moving up to the more powerful cartridge. What I was looking for what the ability to run high pressure Casull loads while at the same time covering the low end plinkers and middle to upper Ruger only 45 Colt loads. I don't like to shoot 45 Colt brass in my SRH cylinder since I don't like the carbon rings which build up and have to be cleaned out if the longer Casull brass is to be used so I only use 454 Casull brass.

I know there are others who are like me and like the idea of owning a 454 Casull as a multi-purpose cartridge (low to high end and anything between). So here it is with SR primers..........those who say they are fine are correct under the right load development as been stated. However converting Casull brass to LP pockets or cutting down 460 brass should also be looked as a tool in load development. It really is nothing more than that!!! I've found that using LP primers has given me more flexibility in reloading the "variety pack" of rounds that I push through my revolvers. I have fired both SR and SR mag primers as well as LP and LP mag primers in enough back to back in tests to determine............my results have convinced me that for what I'm doing LP primers, either standard or mag has more flexibility in the work up of a larger array of loads that has the accuracy I looking for, has more consistent ignition, and to no surprise has lower ES's.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess the way i see it is its 44mans post he started it and it can go about anyway he pleases. He can post that he dislikes FA guns and dislikes the 454 as his opinions are worth as much as mine or anyone elses. We have a long history of keep each other in check. We may argue but at the end of the day we respect each other. What this post all comes down to is differnt people use guns in differnt ways so come to differnt conclusions in how things work. I own two FA guns and have owned two others and must be lucky as all 4 of mine have been great shooters. Im not the biggest fan of the 454. I much prefer the 475 and 500 linebaughs and to be honest prefer the 44mag over any of them. But the 454 has its place. Used like it was designed to be used its a great killer of game. It was never designed to roll beer cans in the back yard. What fun with this place be without a little bit of controversy!!

[44MAG#1]

Oka here goes. Try to follow what I'm saying.
If one wants to shoot low powered loads in a 454 It is easily done with 45 Colt brass. sure the cylinder will have to be kept clean but it doesn't take a lot of time to clean it. 45 Colt Starline brass ALREADY has LP primer pockets. Cases don't have to be cut down. 45 Colt brass will get you from very mild to power levels above the 44 magnum.
Now if you need more power than that go to the 454 Casull cases with the SR primer and load loads that will perform well in them.
This will cover all the bases. PERIOD. Just because someone is too lazy to clean their chambers after shooting 45 Colt brass doesn't mean shooting 45 Colt cases are bad.
This is the main reason I have stated that what 44man is trying to make a problem isn't really a problem just a manufactured problem that is very minor in nature. This is fueled by his dislike of the 454 period. Anyone can take anything they don't like and pick it apart trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill just as a vendetta.
If anyone will take some time and think this through you will easily "see the light."
The trouble is people don't think it through and they jump on "the 454 is full of problems bandwagon."
Just give it a decnt amount of thought and get back to me on it with a problem you think is actually there.
Let me interject something else here. Did 44man try 2400 which downloads easier than W296. Did he ever think to try AA1680. It is not an economical loading but when loaded to the same charge weights as W296/H110 it will give maybe 200 fps or more less velocity without the attendant powder space that results when downloading W296/H110 to get lower velocity? I bet not.
Did he try a deeper seating bullet design to lessen air space? I bet not.
Just a couple more ditties to consider before throwing the 454 case to the dogs.
Lets discuss the "problem" and see if it really is a problem or not.
Point and counter point kinda.

[RobS]

Oka here goes. Try to follow what I'm saying.
If one wants to shoot low powered loads in a 454 It is easily done with 45 Colt brass. sure the cylinder will have to be kept clean but it doesn't take a lot of time to clean it. 45 Colt Starline brass ALREADY has LP primer pockets. Cases don't have to be cut down. 45 Colt brass will get you from very mild to power levels above the 44 magnum.
Now if you need more power than that go to the 454 Casull cases with the SR primer and load loads that will perform well in them.
This will cover all the bases. PERIOD. Just because someone is too lazy to clean their chambers after shooting 45 Colt brass doesn't mean shooting 45 Colt cases are bad.
This is the main reason I have stated that what 44man is trying to make a problem isn't really a problem just a manufactured problem that is very minor in nature. This is fueled by his dislike of the 454 period. Anyone can take anything they don't like and pick it apart trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill just as a vendetta.
If anyone will take some time and think this through you will easily "see the light."
The trouble is people don't think it through and they jump on "the 454 is full of problems bandwagon."
Just give it a decnt amount of thought and get back to me on it with a problem you think is actually there.
Let me interject something else here. Did 44man try 2400 which downloads easier than W296. Did he ever think to try AA1680. It is not an economical loading but when loaded to the same charge weights as W296/H110 it will give maybe 200 fps or more less velocity without the attendant powder space that results when downloading W296/H110 to get lower velocity? I bet not.
Did he try a deeper seating bullet design to lessen air space? I bet not.
Just a couple more ditties to consider before throwing the 454 case to the dogs.
Lets discuss the "problem" and see if it really is a problem or not.
Point and counter point kinda.

First off there is nothing wrong with the 454 Casull cartridge and as I hinted above each his own in regards. Oh by the way, I am not "too lazy" either regarding using 45 Colt brass and cleaning the cylinders out I just prefer not to have to stop in the middle of a range session to do such before running 454 Casull cases but thanks for insinuating that I am.

[44MAG#1]

First off you don't have too in the middle of a range session.. i never had any problems with it. Who told you that you would.
See that is what i mean Manufactuted problems. Not real problems just problems that are concocted for whatever reason..

[RobS]

Geesh, it's what I prefer and what I do and what you prefer I never once had a problem with either. Blast away with your loads using SR pocket primers and I'll shoot my LP pocket 454 Casull brass and neither of us will have to worry about anything. The beauty of this forum is anyone who reads this can determine what they believe will work best for them. It's merely a reference...............

[44MAG#1]

RobS:
You are entirely correct. I wasn't the one trying to imply that the 454 Casull is some lousy cartridge just because it wouldn't comply to my particular whim. Someone else was. I defended it. If someone made a low comment about a friend of yours so to speak, would you just let it go or would you defend him? Did I do wrong by defending the cartridge?
The 454 Casull has peculiarities true but don't we all? Why shouldn't a cartridge or gun?

[44man]

Oka here goes. Try to follow what I'm saying.
If one wants to shoot low powered loads in a 454 It is easily done with 45 Colt brass. sure the cylinder will have to be kept clean but it doesn't take a lot of time to clean it. 45 Colt Starline brass ALREADY has LP primer pockets. Cases don't have to be cut down. 45 Colt brass will get you from very mild to power levels above the 44 magnum.
Now if you need more power than that go to the 454 Casull cases with the SR primer and load loads that will perform well in them.
This will cover all the bases. PERIOD. Just because someone is too lazy to clean their chambers after shooting 45 Colt brass doesn't mean shooting 45 Colt cases are bad.
This is the main reason I have stated that what 44man is trying to make a problem isn't really a problem just a manufactured problem that is very minor in nature. This is fueled by his dislike of the 454 period. Anyone can take anything they don't like and pick it apart trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill just as a vendetta.
If anyone will take some time and think this through you will easily "see the light."
The trouble is people don't think it through and they jump on "the 454 is full of problems bandwagon."
Just give it a decnt amount of thought and get back to me on it with a problem you think is actually there.
Let me interject something else here. Did 44man try 2400 which downloads easier than W296. Did he ever think to try AA1680. It is not an economical loading but when loaded to the same charge weights as W296/H110 it will give maybe 200 fps or more less velocity without the attendant powder space that results when downloading W296/H110 to get lower velocity? I bet not.
Did he try a deeper seating bullet design to lessen air space? I bet not.
Just a couple more ditties to consider before throwing the 454 case to the dogs.
Lets discuss the "problem" and see if it really is a problem or not.
Point and counter point kinda.
My post has nothing to do with other powders and loads, ONLY reduced starting charges of 296 or H110.
I don't like the caliber because it does not fit what I use, not that is bad. I have no need for it. I don't like the primer either.
Yes, the LP mag primer cured starting load problems and that is what I started with.
It is like every other discussion where a bunch dispute just to find none load the same loads. Then different guns are added when I was not talking about the gun.
Back up and look at what I said without adding tons to it. One simple problem, don't reduce 296 or H110 to starting loads with cast boolits.
How one simple finding can generate so many pages really baffles me. I did not say a word to knock a chip from anyone's shoulder. I gave a fact for all of you to watch for.
Those with brains will listen and protect their body and gun.
Do you have a problem with that?

[Frank]

Sorry to butt in, 44man. I just wanted to share a little story.

One problem I had with my SRH in .454, my first big bore, was stuck cases with anything that approached a warm load. I still have load notes and can look them up. It was a widespread problem evidently because others were reporting the same problem on forums. The suggestion given was don't shoot it at the hotter load settings or to polish the chambers. At the medium settings, I could never get any accuracy out of it. It was just like 44man's target, a pattern. I measured the throats and found they were .456. A popular cast bullet maker told me told me to send it back to Ruger. He said they would pay for the pick-up. After it was sent in, Ruger said I could either wait for when they made a new gun, or I could trade it for one of their other models. I chose the latter course.

So isn't that interesting. I couldn't get to enjoy the .454 at the high load settings due to the sticking problem at the higher settings and it wouldn't group if I reduced the charges. Perhaps if I knew about the LPM primer modification then, the outcome would have been different. I could have reduced the loads to medium .454 and gotten good groups. Those loads were definitely at a level higher than hot .45 Colt loads.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
This paraphrasing an old statement: What isn't said speaks volumns. You gave a fact based on your experiment. Well and good. That fact as you know will be interpreted my many to mean different things. You knew that from the start. I believe that was what you were betting on. Get my drift. i don't think i need to spell it out. Now did you carry out that experiment to include other powders to see if they could be run at "STARTING" loads?
Did you think about 45 Colt brass as a viable substitute? W296/H110 aren't /isn't the only powders/powder that can give very good results in a 454 Casull.
Do you even think to explain that your weren't like the Robot in Lost in Space waving your arms shouting warning, warning, and leaving it at that? There are many warnings with many cartridges. Do we shudder at those? No we work around the shuddering part just like a person can the 454. Me I will continue to use the 454 with SR primers but i know not to go below certain charges with W296/H110. If I need lower power than that I will use another powder or use 45 Colt brass to get the job done. i dare say that you or I shoot anything that a 335 to 340 gr bullet wont take care of and that can be accomplished with 45 colt brass very easily with out cutting down 460 S&W brass. What do you hunt that a 340 at 1250 to 1300 won't kill fired from a 45 colt case in a 454 Casull revolver?
Now give 2400 a try for firing consistancy with SR primers at reduced loads and also AA1680 loaded at W296/H110 full loads/
Since you are a consumate experimented that would be a good thing to do for all the people you care about.
How much of a reduced load do you need anyway? 100 fps, 150 fps, 200 fps, more?
What ?????????

[44MAG#1]

Frank:
As I stated previously I have an LBT-LFN-GC (called it a WLN previously but incorrect) bullet that when seated in the nomal CG they fit 454 cases and seated to crimp in the 1st LG in 45 colt cases the give 454 OAL.
45 Colt cases equals LP pockets you know.
Would the large primer pockets cure the extra large throats?
Simple isn't it. Just use the ol brain.

[44man]

44man:
This paraphrasing an old statement: What isn't said speaks volumns. You gave a fact based on your experiment. Well and good. That fact as you know will be interpreted my many to mean different things. You knew that from the start. I believe that was what you were betting on. Get my drift. i don't think i need to spell it out. Now did you carry out that experiment to include other powders to see if they could be run at "STARTING" loads?
Did you think about 45 Colt brass as a viable substitute? W296/H110 aren't /isn't the only powders/powder that can give very good results in a 454 Casull.
Do you even think to explain that your weren't like the Robot in Lost in Space waving your arms shouting warning, warning, and leaving it at that? There are many warnings with many cartridges. Do we shudder at those? No we work around the shuddering part just like a person can the 454. Me I will continue to use the 454 with SR primers but i know not to go below certain charges with W296/H110. If I need lower power than that I will use another powder or use 45 Colt brass to get the job done. i dare say that you or I shoot anything that a 335 to 340 gr bullet wont take care of and that can be accomplished with 45 colt brass very easily with out cutting down 460 S&W brass. What do you hunt that a 340 at 1250 to 1300 won't kill fired from a 45 colt case in a 454 Casull revolver?
Now give 2400 a try for firing consistancy with SR primers at reduced loads and also AA1680 loaded at W296/H110 full loads/
Since you are a consumate experimented that would be a good thing to do for all the people you care about.
How much of a reduced load do you need anyway? 100 fps, 150 fps, 200 fps, more?
What ?????????
You are dancing and dancing again. Not a single time did I say the SR primer was bad with other powders.
Did you buy a .454 to have a .45 Colt? Answer the question?
A .454 is bought for power, not to down load. Do you also use Unique and Bullseye so it does not hurt your hand?
You still do not understand the one simple problem and how it might protect a new .454 owner.
Will you use your head and realize a person can get HURT?

[Frank]

44MAG #1:
Would the large primer pockets cure the extra large throats?

The large primer pockets would provide accuracy at medium power levels where I could extract the cases. The large throats could have stayed the way they were. No need to send the gun back. A new one maybe would have done the same thing. The sticky extraction had something to do with the steel used.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
"You are dancing and dancing again. Not a single time did I say the SR primer was bad with other powders.
Did you buy a .454 to have a .45 Colt? Answer the question?"
I bought the 454 to have the power. Yes so what? What are you trying to prove?
"A .454 is bought for power, not to down load. Do you also use Unique and Bullseye so it does not hurt your hand?"
I have used some of the fast burning powders yes I have. Again so what. they are suitable for downloading more than the slower powders. Again so what??
"You still do not understand the one simple problem and how it might protect a new .454 owner"
Yes I do but are other cartridges potenially harmful too?????????? What about your "swede"? What about the anomaly you had with your 45/70. Where on here is that dire warning? Maybe I missed it. Have you mentioned it as many times as you have the problem with the 454? Have you gave equal time to the other cartridges being harmful or is the 454 the only thing anyone reloads for that could get them hurt???????????
"Will you use your head and realize a person can get HURT?"
Again it goes back to the FACT anyone can get hurt with any cartridge. How many smust I bring that up. Would you agree that the 454 isn't the only cartridge has limits as to the things that can be done hit?

Now anything else?????????

[44man]

44MAG #1:
The large primer pockets would provide accuracy at medium power levels where I could extract the cases. The large throats could have stayed the way they were. No need to send the gun back. A new one maybe would have done the same thing. The sticky extraction had something to do with the steel used.
I agree. Reducing the charge a little with slow powders would stop the sticking brass. Can't do it with the stupid SR primer.
Nothing at all to do with chamber or throat size, it was max loads needed and steel expansion under pressure.
Larger throats are not that much of a concern. More silly tales that they must be perfect. As long as they are larger then groove size they can be made to shoot.
Frank, you see it is so easy to shoot a revolver yet some will have a million ideas, 30,000,000 other junk things. No proof, no groups, no thinking, no problem solving.
Just personal bashes. I am a target. [smilie=l:
Hold on, I have to get coffee or hug my dog. My dog really has more smarts then some that post. :holysheep

[44MAG#1]

Frank:
"The large primer pockets would provide accuracy at medium power levels where I could extract the cases."
My question would be is how do other use the Super Redhawk with the samll rifle primers and still get extraction. i guess everyone that had a SRH must pound the cases out? Was the SRH a victim of the steel or the SR primners and Ruger not wanting to engineer a 5 shot cylinder? Only a slight back off from Full loads will cure the problem. And SR primers are okay at the amount one would have to back off. You don't have to back off some large amount. Have you posted on here asking other SRH owners if they have to back off till SR primers fail to fire to get easy extraction. I'd say if you do something is greatly wrong.
"The sticky extraction had something to do with the steel used"
Was it that or the 6 shot cylinder? The lack of Ruger to engineer a 5 shot cylinder is the problem. Has FA had any problems with sticky extraction with a 5 shot cylinder? I think not and the steel PH17-4 . Now Ruger uses some concoction from Carpenter.
So the problem really is the Steel and the attendant 6 shot cylinder that has much less steel in critical areas than a 5 shot. NOT THE PRIMER USED. See even you are just trying to grasp at ways to stick all problems to the SR primer.

Anything else???????????

[44MAG#1]

"I agree. Reducing the charge a little with slow powders would stop the sticking brass. Can't do it with the stupid SR primer."
Here you go again. You can reduce the charge enough to stop sticking. How do you think others do it or do you think all others except you and Frank have FA revolvers that don't have the springy Carpenter steel and a 6 shot cylinder? Have you even made a post to other concerning the loads for their SRH's of are you grasping at you own ideas and no one Else's?
Nothing at all to do with chamber or throat size, it was max loads needed and steel expansion under pressure"
You are right. Are you saying that a 454 With SR primers can't be downloaded at all?" If you are than you need to define downloaded. Do you know how much it takes to cure the sticky extraction? Do you really want to know. No you don't because you will find you can do it enough with the SR primer to cure the problem. See it would harm you contention somewhat and you would loose some of your real intent.
"Frank, you see it is so easy to shoot a revolver yet some will have a million ideas, 30,000,000 other junk things. No proof, no groups, no thinking, no problem solving."
See we are talking about safety now you have brought up the challenge of groups. i knew it. You can't stand it until you start issuing challenges about the accurate thing that can easily be covered ina separate thread. So you are saying more that one idea is bad. One must have one idea and you would be okay with it as long as it follows your lead.
"no thinking, no problem solving"
I thought and I solved. 45 Colt brass for those that must go below a certain level with 454 cases. See i solved the problem. no fuss no muss. so you can't be referring that to me.
Anything else??????????
Another thing. you could be listed as a martyr " 2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle."

[454PB]

Without contributing to a good argument, here's a link to the article concerning the special SS used in the Ruger SRH.

http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1608

Since I too have experienced the sticking cases with high pressure loads, I question the fact that they saw no problems while firing 300 proof loads in the cylinder.

The other complaint I have is that the hammer fall does not reliably ignite CCI 450 primers. I've never had a problem with the CCI 400 primers. There is no problem using the SRM (CCI 450) primers in either my Taurus Raging Bull or Freedom Arms 83.

[Whitworth]

Without contributing to a good argument, here's a link to the article concerning the special SS used in the Ruger SRH.

http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1608

Since I too have experienced the sticking cases with high pressure loads, I question the fact that they saw no problems while firing 300 proof loads in the cylinder.

The other complaint I have is that the hammer fall does not reliably ignite CCI 450 primers. I've never had a problem with the CCI 400 primers. There is no problem using the SRM (CCI 450) primers in either my Taurus Raging Bull or Freedom Arms 83.


From what I understand, the sticky extraction (particularly evident in the .480 versions of the SRH -- and a much lower pressure round -- 48K vs 62K) was a mchining issue and nothing more.

[44MAG#1]

"From what I understand, the sticky extraction (particularly evident in the .480 versions of the SRH -- and a much lower pressure round -- 48K vs 62K) was a mchining issue and nothing more"
I have read that too. But I have never had sticky extraction in a 5 shot cylinder and I have 2 FA's and had a Taurus Raging Bull. My buddy had one too and he ran some pretty stiff loads in it at times. There was an article concerning the springiness of the Carpenter steel used and the attendant sticky extraction posted somewhere awhile back.

[Lloyd Smale]

frank it wasnt just the 454s that did that the 480s were known to do it too. Personaly I sure wouldnt hold back from returning a gun like that. If the only way you could run it is with midrange loads youd be better off with a 44 mag super redhawk. I sure would be cheaper to shoot. Using large primers and downloading is just putting a bandaid on an amputated leg. the problem was the fault of ruger not the fault of the 454 in any way.
44MAG #1:
The large primer pockets would provide accuracy at medium power levels where I could extract the cases. The large throats could have stayed the way they were. No need to send the gun back. A new one maybe would have done the same thing. The sticky extraction had something to do with the steel used.

[Whitworth]

"From what I understand, the sticky extraction (particularly evident in the .480 versions of the SRH -- and a much lower pressure round -- 48K vs 62K) was a mchining issue and nothing more"
I have read that too. But I have never had sticky extraction in a 5 shot cylinder and I have 2 FA's and had a Taurus Raging Bull. My buddy had one too and he ran some pretty stiff loads in it at times. There was an article concerning the springiness of the Carpenter steel used and the attendant sticky extraction posted somewhere awhile back.

I think Lloyd is right. I never heard of an issue with .454 SRHs, only with the .480s. I have owned both and never experienced any issues with the .454 with regards to extraction. I have an SRH cylinder in a Redhawk that has digested many hot .454 loads and extraction has never been sticky.

[44MAG#1]

I am sure both of you are correct but Speer in their #14 manuel addresses that issue.
It is a good read.
But since I have never owned a SRH in 454 Casull I cannot say with definitve proof that what i say is right.

[44man]

I think Lloyd is right. I never heard of an issue with .454 SRHs, only with the .480s. I have owned both and never experienced any issues with the .454 with regards to extraction. I have an SRH cylinder in a Redhawk that has digested many hot .454 loads and extraction has never been sticky.
There were a few issues with the .454 but not many. It was a steel expansion and retraction issue where brass did not keep up. No danger. More with the .480 because of less metal.
Being able to reduce the 296 load a grain really would help but the SR mag primer might not allow that.
But you see what is happening, all other loads are tossed into the fray.
A simple caution is turned into a huge mess just because one person never had it happen because he loads different yet will dispute every word.
It is a safety issue for the new guy, I will NOT BACK AWAY.
Dispute puts a false sense of security for a new gun owner. I can't be a part of that. I told what can happen so I quit. The expert can be responsible.

[44MAG#1]

44man.
Show me where I disputed what you said. There you go again. I know if one goes to low with H110/W296. One can have problems. Can't you read. Really what is you problem. But that is true of many cartridges

[44man]

44man.
Show me where I disputed what you said. There you go again. I know if one goes to low with H110/W296. One can have problems. Can't you read. Really what is you problems. But that is true with many cartridges
If you would have just stuck with the primary problem and not expanded on it, all would be fine.
If you would have admitted that it is NOT TOO LOW, just book starting loads.
I am not angry, so can we come to terms? Can we shake hands?

[bearcove]

You should not download 110/296. I don't care what cartridge you talk about.

It is bad loading practice. Use a different powder.

I haven't had much time to shoot the last few years, or test the primer results 44man writes about so take it as good advice. I use loads that take advantage of the best performance of the components. H110 maxloads, Unique and others for reduced loads. Thats why they make different powders.

[Whitworth]

There were a few issues with the .454 but not many. It was a steel expansion and retraction issue where brass did not keep up. No danger. More with the .480 because of less metal.
Being able to reduce the 296 load a grain really would help but the SR mag primer might not allow that.
But you see what is happening, all other loads are tossed into the fray.
A simple caution is turned into a huge mess just because one person never had it happen because he loads different yet will dispute every word.
It is a safety issue for the new guy, I will NOT BACK AWAY.
Dispute puts a false sense of security for a new gun owner. I can't be a part of that. I told what can happen so I quit. The expert can be responsible.

All steel expands and retracts. This isn't unique to the SRH. I know in the case of the .480 there was an isse with machining and reverse tapers which made extraction difficult.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
"If you would have just stuck with the primary problem and not expanded on it, all would be fine"
Yes it would have been for you. with you vendetta against FA you would have left the impression that that malady is limited to the 454 Casull only. You know it isn't and if you would have stated that this would have turned out better.
"If you would have admitted that it is NOT TOO LOW, just book starting loads."
Yes it was too low. If it wasn't you would not have had the problem. Book data from a lab is just that, as you well know or should know. You and your outdoor range and your equipment isn't a LAB no matter how you may pretend it is. As I have fired many pounds of H110/W296 I would have never gone that low to begin with.
"I am not angry, so can we come to terms? Can we shake hands?"
I am sure you aren't mad just a little deranged toward the 454 Casull. You have even admitted that you like nothing about it. Can we shake hands, yes I am not the least mad at you as I see you for what you are when it comes to the FA line of guns and especially the 454 Casull. Your bid for martyr position on this board is not impressing me at all.
Now have a good day and remember you have already have a flashing billboard following you with a big arrow that states: Here below is a Freedom Arms hater and a 454 Casull demonizer.
Remember I still like you whether you believe it or not.
Again have a good day. I believe they need you back on the FA 357 Mag thread.

[44man]

44man:
"If you would have just stuck with the primary problem and not expanded on it, all would be fine"
Yes it would have been for you. with you vendetta against FA you would have left the impression that that malady is limited to the 454 Casull only. You know it isn't and if you would have stated that this would have turned out better.
"If you would have admitted that it is NOT TOO LOW, just book starting loads."
Yes it was too low. If it wasn't you would not have had the problem. Book data from a lab is just that, as you well know or should know. You and your outdoor range and your equipment isn't a LAB no matter how you may pretend it is. As I have fired many pounds of H110/W296 I would have never gone that low to begin with.
"I am not angry, so can we come to terms? Can we shake hands?"
I am sure you aren't mad just a little deranged toward the 454 Casull. You have even admitted that you like nothing about it. Can we shake hands, yes I am not the least mad at you as I see you for what you are when it comes to the FA line of guns and especially the 454 Casull. Your bid for martyr position on this board is not impressing me at all.
Now have a good day and remember you have already have a flashing billboard following you with a big arrow that states: Here below is a Freedom Arms hater and a 454 Casull demonizer.
Remember I still like you whether you believe it or not.
Again have a good day. I believe they need you back on the FA 357 Mag thread.
Agreed but would you please leave Freedom out of it? I was not shooting a Freedom at all.
I do not like the .454 because it is too fast for hard cast and works best with jacketed, expanding bullets or softer lead.
Nothing at all to do with the gun make.
Download to hot .45 colt loads and there is no reason for the caliber.
The .45 loads are not accurate enough.
I consider it an in between caliber, between a hot .45 and a .475 that needs a perfect bullet.
I do not want a .460 either.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
"Agreed but would you please leave Freedom out of it? I was not shooting a Freedom at all."
I think your great dislike for FA guns is really the driving force behind someone that would make a post stating a problem with the 454 (which was a problem) and then give the impression that no other cartridge will give a problem when downloaded too far. To over come hatred one has to remove the cause for the hatred or at least recognize the cause of it. That is the reason I mention FA guns. I know you were NOT shooting a FA gun. Ballistic data from labs have been know to be suspect at times before. Being able to duplicate lab conditions on a shooting range etc. is nearly impossible to do. You knew that. As I stated before I would have never went below 24.5 grs at least . Why, because I know that W296/H110 can give problems downloaded past a certain level. Remember I had a squib with 2400 that was downloaded severely.
"Download to hot .45 colt loads and there is no reason for the caliber."
You have that correct so why did you do it? See you have evidenced to yourself you were doing something there was no sense in in the first place.
"The .45 loads are not accurate enough"
Okay I take that as a given. So!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"I consider it an in between caliber, between a hot .45 and a .475 that needs a perfect bullet"
Okay a gain. I want to shoot a near perfect bullet in anything I shoot. I sure don't want part of it missing or it looking like a banana or the GC listing off to one side. Again SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"I do not want a .460 either"
Neither do I but if I had one I sure wouldn't try loading down W296/H110 very far. Can you guess why. There will be some Potsy that will dump a 45 Colt load of 23 H110 with 335 grained and get dubious results and then post them on the internet trying to get scare started about the the terrible results he got with the 460 S&W.
Anyway have a good day.

[Matthew 25]

"I swear, it's like I'm playin' cards with my brother's kids or somethin'. You nerve-wrackin' ***-*-*******"

[44MAG#1]

MATTHEW 25:
"I swear, it's like I'm playin' cards with my brother's kids or somethin'. You nerve-wrackin' ***-*-*******"
Do you know how to prevent your nerves from being Wracked? Don't look a t the posts. If you do then it is your fault that your nerves are getting "wracked".
Yes and you should quit playing cards with your brothers kids too.

[Matthew 25]

I don't know what I would do without you, thank you so much for your contribution.

[bearcove]

The ironic part is in the signiture about opportunities. LOL!!

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a 454 alaskan i sold because of it. I wanted to like it. I had it cut for moon clips and action work done on it before i even shot it. Anything over 27 grians of 110 with a 320 and i was pounding brass out of it. Found i could get just much more performance out of a 4 inch 44 mag redhawk. So i sold it to one of the guys at work and took it in the shorts for all the work i had done to it. I kind of get a charge out of guys badmouthing FA guns and owning may rugers and bragging them up like there some kind of higher end gun. Ive had more problems with ruger guns both rifle and handgun then all the other brands combined. Now to be fair ive probably owned more rugers though the years then any other brand but id guess that half the rugers ive bougthen new have had some issue or other. Out of the half that was good many after a few thousand rounds have developed problems too. Ive owned only 4 fa guns through the years but none of them has had a single problem. I have also never had to send back a remington or winchester bolt gun and have lost count of the ruger rifles that have made a trip back to the factory. Two last year for sure and two allready this year. Funny i dont here much ruger bashing. Im sure ill hear the FA guns cost 3 times as much and should be better but to me thats like saying if i buy a stipped down pickup it wont be as reliable as a fancy one will. I would think that for what ruger charges for one it ought to at least be reliable. Ill get out of this post now and let the fight resume.
I think Lloyd is right. I never heard of an issue with .454 SRHs, only with the .480s. I have owned both and never experienced any issues with the .454 with regards to extraction. I have an SRH cylinder in a Redhawk that has digested many hot .454 loads and extraction has never been sticky.

[Groo]

Groo here
Compared to my #2 FA's ruger and taurus both have larger chambers..
Never had a problem putting 45colt in any of the others but in the FA's
one is a strong push fit [with some factory] and the other will not even start..
Mine are OLD ones so there may be a deference now....
Now I use the 454 dies for everything. They are smaller.

[44man]

Groo, I have no idea what happened. I started this about the caliber and primer. No experience with it and not a single mention about a gun.
Only that I did the sane thing of looking at loads to work up safely, not expecting a problem. Normal stuff, start low and look for accuracy only to have boolits stick in the bore until loads were almost or at max.
Published data!
I reported a problem and how I cured it---see anything wrong?
How many loaders buy or work with a gun and say the heck with those lighter loads, just go max? How simple for info to be just one load for every gun, no need to work up, just fill it up! :kidding:
Yeah, it is ONLY my opinion of Freedom guns even though I was not using one. How did that get in here anyway?
I am accused of using a .45 Colt load of 23 gr with a 335 gr boolit----NO, NO, I don't think so, that is a starting .454 load, never to go in my .45. That is a published starting load for the .454.
Hate a Ruger---COOL, hate any other gun, COOL, but never find a problem with Freedom.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
As Ihope you know I am not Groo.
"Only that I did the sane thing of looking at loads to work up safely, not expecting a problem. Normal stuff, start low and look for accuracy only to have boolits stick in the bore until loads were almost or at max.
Published data!"
[B]Here is Hodgdons data for a 45 Colt for Ruger /T/C FA:
[/B335 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.680" 20.5 1109 19,200 CUP 23.5 1240 28,000 CUP ]
As you see they went up to 23.5 gr. Now using your logic that a starting load is ALWAYS safe it stand to reason that ALL maximum loads are safe. Right? You know better than that. There is no load that is necessarily always safe not in any cartridge starting load or max as the starting load if too low can cause erratic ignition and too high can cause over pressure problems.. To assume so can create problems as you well know by now. Here is Hodgdons load data for the 454 Casull:
335 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.770" 23.0 1321 22,200 CUP 26.0 1531 41,600 CUP . Now you see they are .5 gr lower than their max 45 Colt load.
Can you deduce anything from that information.

I reported a problem and how I cured it---see anything wrong?
In fact I commended you on it and suggested it be made a "STICKEY"
"How many loaders buy or work with a gun and say the heck with those lighter loads, just go max? How simple for info to be just one load for every gun, no need to work up, just fill it up!"

I am sure there are many that have. Now lets see if I were using a #1 Ruger and I wanted to go to the max trapdoor loads would I have to work up for safety? Accuracy yes, safety no. Believe it or not there are exceptions.
"Yeah, it is ONLY my opinion of Freedom guns even though I was not using one. How did that get in here anyway?"
Why? Why? why you ask? You are a known FA basher and the 454 is a FA cartridge. A good stratigist will plan attacks from more than one point of entry.
"I am accused of using a .45 Colt load of 23 gr with a 335 gr boolit----NO, NO, I don't think so, that is a starting .454 load, never to go in my .45. That is a published starting load for the .454."
See above loading data.
I still like you as I have never met you but bet you deep down are a swell guy. I would like to meet you sometime. I would like to have a 45 Colt bullet of your design in maybe 270 to 280 gr weight plain based. Give me a price on one and maybe we can get it done and I'll come to pick it up. I will send you a MO for it so you wont think I am trying to stick it to you simply because we have had this tiff.

[Changeling]

44man.
Show me where I disputed what you said. There you go again. I know if one goes to low with H110/W296. One can have problems. Can't you read. Really what is you problem. But that is true of many cartridges




44MAG#1

Good grief, you mean to say you went to all this BS, just to get a copy of "Jims" bullet design, It's Awesome and you lost it!
Yes it is pure unadultrated BS on your part! Man you need help!!!!
The design will be available shortly, there are still a few"Kinks" to be worked out but things are looking Awesome


YOUR Mantra!
"As you go through life you are going to have many opportunities to keep your mouth shut. Take advantage of all of them. "

That is something you should realy adhere to yourself.

The above is your "Quote", I strongly suggest you follow/Listen two your own advise

!

[44MAG#1]

Changling
First off you don't know what you are talking about. Find out then we will discuss it

[bigboredad]

This is the first I've heard of this awesome bullet from Jim. Maybe you could enlighten us changeling

[44man]

44MAG#1

Good grief, you mean to say you went to all this BS, just to get a copy of "Jims" bullet design, It's Awesome and you lost it!
Yes it is pure unadultrated BS on your part! Man you need help!!!!
The design will be available shortly, there are still a few"Kinks" to be worked out but things are looking Awesome


YOUR Mantra!
"As you go through life you are going to have many opportunities to keep your mouth shut. Take advantage of all of them. "

That is something you should realy adhere to yourself.

The above is your "Quote", I strongly suggest you follow/Listen two your own advise

!
IS MY BOOLIT THE REASON? :kidding: It is as simple as I am and a PB to boot. Maybe I found how to fix the gun and get a boolit to shoot. How funny to get a PB to shoot with max loads from a .454.
Not happy yet, if it gets way below an inch at 50 and 100, then I will make claims. Going to be hard to beat 3/4" at 100 AND LESS I get with my BFR revolvers.
What do you think? If 44mag came here and I put up 1" targets at 100, could he hit them with his Freedom?

[44MAG#1]

44man:
"IS MY BOOLIT THE REASON? It is as simple as I am and a PB to boot. Maybe I found how to fix the gun and get a boolit to shoot. How funny to get a PB to shoot with max loads from a .454."
Stick to the subject of the sqiub loads. Not this how well you can shoot thing. I'll admit I am not the hotshot pistol shot you are. Now that that is out of the way we WILL proceed to the original post about you going too low for the cartrideg, OKAY
"Not happy yet, if it gets way below an inch at 50 and 100, then I will make claims. Going to be hard to beat 3/4" at 100 AND LESS I get with my BFR revolvers."
We know about your BFR's we have been boasted to many times now about how much better they are than the FA's WE KNOW you have a vendetta against them.. WE KNOW already
I have alluded to the fact I am NOT the hotshot pistol shot you are. Do you understand me? How can I make it any clearer for you?
See this is what you wanted to do in the first place was to run down FA revolvers and make challenges to everyone and boast of your prowess with a benched gun.
You try to stick it in every way you can.
Please stick with the subject of the first post. You have already harangued everyone on the 357 FA thread why drag this thread down into the mud just like it.
I'll tell you what I'll do. I want to see you shoot. I'll come up and spend a night in a hotel so I can be wide awake to witness your marksman ship and I will pay all my expenses, gas, food, lodging and incidentals. But if you fail to shoot 3 out of 4 one inch 6 shot (or five shot) groups with your favorite revolver at 100 yards you will reimburse me all my expenses that I occur on the trip.
I will take photos and I will come on here as a witness and testify before everyone on here that you you are the" real deal" and that you are no doubt the best shot in the world.
Now this is all I want to discuss on the accuracy thing.

[Lloyd Smale]

open sighted bfrs at a 100 yards? No scopes no machine rest. Id love to see the results myself. dont let him cheat and use a FA gun ;) Seriously it isnt a bad idea. Lots of doubters would finaly know the truth. Personaly i KNOW i couldnt do it one time out of 4 unless all the stars were aligned and God owed me a big one.

[Whitworth]

44man:
"IS MY BOOLIT THE REASON? It is as simple as I am and a PB to boot. Maybe I found how to fix the gun and get a boolit to shoot. How funny to get a PB to shoot with max loads from a .454."
Stick to the subject of the sqiub loads. Not this how well you can shoot thing. I'll admit I am not the hotshot pistol shot you are. Now that that is out of the way we WILL proceed to the original post about you going too low for the cartrideg, OKAY
"Not happy yet, if it gets way below an inch at 50 and 100, then I will make claims. Going to be hard to beat 3/4" at 100 AND LESS I get with my BFR revolvers."
We know about your BFR's we have been boasted to many times now about how much better they are than the FA's WE KNOW you have a vendetta against them.. WE KNOW already
I have alluded to the fact I am NOT the hotshot pistol shot you are. Do you understand me? How can I make it any clearer for you?
See this is what you wanted to do in the first place was to run down FA revolvers and make challenges to everyone and boast of your prowess with a benched gun.
You try to stick it in every way you can.
Please stick with the subject of the first post. You have already harangued everyone on the 357 FA thread why drag this thread down into the mud just like it.
I'll tell you what I'll do. I want to see you shoot. I'll come up and spend a night in a hotel so I can be wide awake to witness your marksman ship and I will pay all my expenses, gas, food, lodging and incidentals. But if you fail to shoot 3 out of 4 one inch 6 shot (or five shot) groups with your favorite revolver at 100 yards you will reimburse me all my expenses that I occur on the trip.
I will take photos and I will come on here as a witness and testify before everyone on here that you you are the" real deal" and that you are no doubt the best shot in the world.
Now this is all I want to discuss on the accuracy thing.

I'll tell you what, I know 44man personally and shoot with him quite a lot. I also hunt deer with him every year. While he chronically contradicts himself, can barely contain his disdain for all products from Freedom Arms, is cantankerous as hell (I guess at 73 he is allowed to be a curmudeon), but he REALLY can shoot. He was responsible for me changing my testing parameters and demanding better accuracy from my revolvers. He can school me off of sand bags with regularity, and I shoot and hunt a lot with handguns. That said, I can whip his butt offhand! :bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

Whitworth:
"I'll tell you what, I know 44man personally and shoot with him quite a lot. I also hunt deer with him every year. While he chronically contradicts himself, can barely contain his disdain for all products from Freedom Arms, is cantankerous as hell (I guess at 73 he is allowed to be a curmudgeon), but he REALLY can shoot. "
Thats good. I am glad he can shoot. I probably won't live to be 73. But he has harangued people on here that his way is" IT". Can all of us shoot like he can? NO!!!!!!!!!!! Do we have to? Another NO!!!!!!!!! Why can't he get it through his head. I thought as a person got older they got smarter through the teachings of life. It would seem to me that he would be smart enough to know that we all can't do what he does either because 1: we don't want to take the time, 2: we don't have the interest, 3 We do well enough with "what we do with a handgun" that we don't want too. As to him being a curmudgeon that is all and well but when does one leave well enough alone? As I said I glad he can shoot and I hope he can shoot when he is 104 years old. I can't shoot as well as you and him but I still can still do pretty well. I don't practice like I use too and couldn't care less . I can still keep an offhand group froma 454 with near full power load in an area the size of a whitetail deers brain front on with a one hand bullseye stance at 25 yards. I don't care what he can do or you really as I am not you and him which I am sure you and him are as happy as I am that I am not.
"He was responsible for me changing my testing parameters and demanding better accuracy from my revolvers. He can school me off of sand bags with regularity, and I shoot and hunt a lot with handguns. That said, I can whip his butt offhand!"
I am glad he schooled you in improving your shooting skills. He is I am sure a good man and teacher. Now be happy you have such a good friend as good friends are hard to find.
Now have a good day and remember this thread wasn't about accuracy but the safety of a 454 Load he tried. I commend you on trying to get this thread started on an accuracy rant by 44man to help him along with his vendetta against FA but lets stick to the original safety issue. That is much more important than accuracy any day as safety is first and foremost then everything else follows on the list.
And besides the accuracy thing has been discussed , cussed and debated now many times with very little to no practical good happening from it.

[Whitworth]

Whitworth: I commend you on trying to get this thread started on an accuracy rant by 44man to help him along with his vendetta against FA but lets stick to the original safety issue.

I am not sure how I am helping him along with his "vendetta" against Freedom, as I don't share his views about these fine revolvers and in fact often argue with him over that particular issue.

[44man]

I'll tell you what, I know 44man personally and shoot with him quite a lot. I also hunt deer with him every year. While he chronically contradicts himself, can barely contain his disdain for all products from Freedom Arms, is cantankerous as hell (I guess at 73 he is allowed to be a curmudeon), but he REALLY can shoot. He was responsible for me changing my testing parameters and demanding better accuracy from my revolvers. He can school me off of sand bags with regularity, and I shoot and hunt a lot with handguns. That said, I can whip his butt offhand! :bigsmyl2:
True that I do not like a Freedom but that was NOT the subject. 44mag brought that in, not me.
Go to the manuals and tell me I was using too little powder working with a new caliber for me.
Whit can hit beer cans off hand with a lot less shots off the rail at 100 yards then it takes me, sometimes he hits them first shot and at around 80 yards a little water bottle will get it's due.
I still beat him from bags, true! :drinks:
Not a single one of us that shoots together will shoot 20 yards and only count the best 5 out of 6 or the best 4 out of 5. We START at 50 and a few of us go to 500 meters. ( 44 mag, that is 547 yards for the unwashed.) I was shooting 400 yards with a Ruger flat top and a S&W 29 in 1956-57 and hitting what I shot at and that was open sights.
I suspect 44 mag can't shoot as good as my friends and I because he does not understand the revolver, how to load for it or is stuck at 20 yards. How about if he has one of those Freedoms that drive boolits sideways down the over size bore? :kidding:
44mag, all the screaming you do with your responses have no affect because you admit you can't shoot. Is it you or what you hold in your hand? Have you ever put 5 shots in 5/16" at 50 yards? Have you ever shot less then 1" at 100? Can you hit a can at 200?
Come here and I will have you doing just that but leave the freedom at home, bring a Ruger!
I can not count the .44's I have owned and shot, Rugers, S&W's, etc. I have yet to find one that would not shoot. The S&W 29 can shoot 1/2" groups all day at 50 yards with open sights. I shot some 1/2" groups with a Taurus.
Now the big, huge S&W X frame in .500---WOW!
Maybe you should buy a gun that works! :brokenima
Cbrick has some good Freedoms and has shown what he does. I respect him, he does not hide behind a keyboard and I bet he can make any revolver shoot. Yes, I admit Freedom can get it right! Just not every time. While Ruger posts profits, Freedom is in chapter 11. S&W posts huge profits. Have you ever seen a Savage rifle that will not shoot? Every gun maker is making money except Freedom.
Get off the high horse and show us what you do, prove what you say. Stop screaming, it belittles you.

[44MAG#1]

44man:
I use the bold print to seperate the statement from you and my answer. To the unwashed that is. Are you unwashed like me
"I suspect 44 mag can't shoot as good as my friends and I because he does not understand the revolver, how to load for it or is stuck at 20 yards. How about if he has one of those Freedoms that drive boolits sideways down the over size bore? "
I told you this is not an avenue for you to belittle the rest of us that cannot shoot as well as you do. Can't you get over this or can you not understand it? Why is it so hard for you to get this into your head? Please drop the accuracy issues in this thread. It was not started as an accuracy issue.
"Not a single one of us that shoots together will shoot 20 yards and only count the best 5 out of 6 or the best 4 out of 5. We START at 50 and a few of us go to 500 meters. ( 44 mag, that is 547 yards for the unwashed.) I was shooting 400 yards with a Ruger flat top and a S&W 29 in 1956-57 and hitting what I shot at and that was open sights."
See there you go with the same old tired saying you have used many time and we have all read it many time before. As to meters I am very familiar with yards and meters thank you. I went to school and did learn something. As for hitting thing at 400 yards with a Ruger FT and a S&W Pre 29 I am happy for you. We have read about your exploits before. Good for you.
"44mag, all the screaming you do with your responses have no affect because you admit you can't shoot. Is it you or what you hold in your hand? Have you ever put 5 shots in 5/16" at 50 yards?"
I use the BOLD type to show my response different from the statement you made. That is all'. Don't ever think i can't shoot just because I can not shoot as well as you. No everyone can shoot as well as you so I guess you are making that statement to everyone that is not in your lofty ability in shooting. See there you go knocking not ONLY me but others. Why do you do that. You have done it much before.
"Have you ever put 5 shots in 5/16" at 50 yards? Have you ever shot less then 1" at 100? Can you hit a can at 200? "
I have not. This not a thread about accuracy remember. Again how many on here that shoots as infrequently as i do can do that ? How many that can shoot much better than I can do that ? How many bullseye shooters can do that? Does that make us all sub-human? Are we not worthy of the air we breath, the food we eat? Good grief get over it. I would say you feel unworthy when Whit worth shows up the old man offhand. Do you hide several days until your tail comes out from between your legs and then breath and sup? Do you feel unworthy? If I should you should.
Maybe you should buy a gun that works!"
My 2 FA's work. What are you talking about?????????????????
"Cbrick has some good Freedoms and has shown what he does. I respect him, he does not hide behind a keyboard and I bet he can make any revolver shoot. Yes, I admit Freedom can get it right! Just not every time. While Ruger posts profits, Freedom is in chapter 11. S&W posts huge profits. Have you ever seen a Savage rifle that will not shoot? Every gun maker is making money except Freedom."
Good for CBRICK. Yea. Me I can't hide behind a keyboard. I am too fat. what about you?
I wondered how long it would take for you to zoom in on Fa's bankruptcy> You glee in others hardship don't you? That ought to tell people something about you.

Again are you man enough to drop the accuracy thing in this post and continue with the safety issue okay. Lets see if this safety thing was sincere or was it another attempt for you to take a jab at FA.
Lets see if you can do it?
I don't think you can.
You intended this to be another FA jab all along just as I said.

[44man]

Come shoot with whit, Bioman and me. You are welcome. You might learn a few things.
I do not get angry or hold a grudge. Nothing bothers me because nobody can ever prove I am wrong but that is beside the point. If you were here, we would be friends.
You don't know me, I am old and cranky sometimes and Whit hardly ever agrees but he still follows what I do and what I find.
I only say with what I have found. You never have to agree. If you do not agree, just some proof will settle it. Just truth.
Now if you have a cowboy hat and only count shots that are close and reject the misses, I will have to beat you senseless! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
I really did shoot a one hole group at 100 yards, the best one out of six! Can you beat that? [smilie=s:[smilie=s:

[Whitworth]

Dang, why do these threads always turn into fights??????

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/this-is-what-it-looks-like-funny-rabbit-argue-internet-dumb-demotivational-poster-1250976231.jpg

[44man]

Dang, why do these threads always turn into fights??????

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/this-is-what-it-looks-like-funny-rabbit-argue-internet-dumb-demotivational-poster-1250976231.jpg
Only FREEDOM. :holysheep It can't be helped. 44mag is probably a great guy and I would love to have him live close.
I like him.

[Changeling]

Hi Jim, I see things don't change much! Always someone trying to cut down what you have to say and "Prove" with pictures! Do anyone of them provide pictures of there claims yet?

I took a bad turn for the worse since I last seen you but things are getting better now! I ordered some 296 for us today (helping to pay you back). If you have any 296 1 lb cans hold on to them.

I went back and read some of the latest ****, but it just became so familiar as being the same old BS, I just got tired of trying to understand what this guy is talking aabout!!!!!

Talk to you later, Changeling.

[44man]

Hi Jim, I see things don't change much! Always someone trying to cut down what you have to say and "Prove" with pictures! Do anyone of them provide pictures of there claims yet?

I took a bad turn for the worse since I last seen you but things are getting better now! I ordered some 296 for us today (helping to pay you back). If you have any 296 1 lb cans hold on to them.

I went back and read some of the latest ****, but it just became so familiar as being the same old BS, I just got tired of trying to understand what this guy is talking aabout!!!!!

Talk to you later, Changeling.
Oh, 44mag is OK, I just rub some the wrong way.
No need to pay back anything, you will need the powder yourself but you have to get out to shoot.
The mulberries have been falling and the yard is full of deer. They don't even run anymore when my little dogs are out walking with me.
Whitworth would get an itchy trigger finger! :kidding:

[Changeling]

Oh, 44mag is OK, I just rub some the wrong way.
No need to pay back anything, you will need the powder yourself but you have to get out to shoot.
The mulberries have been falling and the yard is full of deer. They don't even run anymore when my little dogs are out walking with me.
Whitworth would get an itchy trigger finger! :kidding:



I always pay my debts!
Besides Whitworth always has an itchy triger finger, Im pretty sure it has something to be an outstanding Marine!!

I'l give you a yell before i come up!

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but pictures passed on the internet mean nothing to me. Its way to easy to shoot at 50 yards anc claim a 100. If i trust a mans word its as good or better then any picture he posts and if I doubt a mans word im sure not going to trust his pictures.
Hi Jim, I see things don't change much! Always someone trying to cut down what you have to say and "Prove" with pictures! Do anyone of them provide pictures of there claims yet?

I took a bad turn for the worse since I last seen you but things are getting better now! I ordered some 296 for us today (helping to pay you back). If you have any 296 1 lb cans hold on to them.

I went back and read some of the latest ****, but it just became so familiar as being the same old BS, I just got tired of trying to understand what this guy is talking aabout!!!!!

Talk to you later, Changeling.

[bigboredad]

+1 I agree 100% internet pictures are a joke

[44man]

sorry but pictures passed on the internet mean nothing to me. Its way to easy to shoot at 50 yards anc claim a 100. If i trust a mans word its as good or better then any picture he posts and if I doubt a mans word im sure not going to trust his pictures.
That means you don't believe me, or Whitworth or Bioman or Pete or Dave or Changeling or Frank any many others.
The question has never been the man shooting, only what your gun can do with what you load.
I don't care if you use a Ransom Rest. I see nothing wrong with showing what is said about a gun or boolit. Myself, I would never doubt what anyone shows. I am more interested in what a change to a load does whether you shoot 5" groups or not. Does what a man says improve anything? Does your favorite alloy shoot better then another? Do you really get good groups with pure lead at 1400 fps?
To just say is worse then one picture to compare things. Keyboard punching has created more good loads then all what anyone else can make.
Take your Ruger and shoot two different things, show the difference. What really helped? Explain why and what you have learned.
No way I can make YOU shoot but if I help 10% with your gun it means a lot to me.
Why a fear of pictures? Nobody will call you a liar or belittle you, it is what you hold in your hand that counts to me and others. I don't care if you tie it to the bench with 1000 yards of rope! ;-)
My goal is to make a revolver shoot as good as it can and that is the end, period. My learning will never end either because I never stop trying and too many times, things fail.
My pictures are fact and I post so many I have to go back and delete them because I run out of space.
I have shown this picture before, shot with 50 shots at 50 yards from my .44. Can you read it? Can you explain every shot? It is important. Would you toss this load? Or will you learn so all shots will go into the center with the exact same load?
That is why I am here, to make you think, not to brag. My .44 will do 1-1/4" at 100 yards with this same load. I really do want you to solve problems.

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale:
sorry but pictures passed on the internet mean nothing to me. Its way to easy to shoot at 50 yards anc claim a 100. If i trust a mans word its as good or better then any picture he posts and if I doubt a mans word im sure not going to trust his pictures.
What's funny is Lloyd had a post where he said he couldn't shoot a group like many others here do often. But then in countless other threads he is found giving advice, 'shoots great', 'works for me', 'does well'. This is the repeatable comedy we hear day in and day out. We never see any results from some people who also happen to be the most opinionated about what works and by what quantity of guns they own, or how many thousands of rounds they put out, so they say, then we are expected to believe their advice, especially when they have foretold us they can't for the life of them even shoot a group less than 2", and was it 50 yrds? But when one man steps forth, does some work, tells what he did and shows a good group, he is ridiculed. First they say it's done off the bench, no good. Or a tube sight was used. Bad. Or the gun is really a rifle by it's size. How rude. Or he's taking pictures at 10 yrds and claiming it's 100, maybe he's using a cover over the target so he can hide the powder burns!

For the doubter who has so many guns, maybe he should sell one, buy the one that shoots, load it the way the "liar" loads his, have a competent shooter shoot it at a target and post the result. Then he will have some kind of a basis for entering into a discussion about what shoots great, or works well.

[44man]

Now Frank, take it easy! Stay calm. We are all friends in the end.
Yes it would be great to see more because things to improve can be sorted out and that's what counts.
There is a lot more knowledge here then anywhere else. I hate more then anything to mention a name, it gets nasty but it should not ever be personal. I am guilty too and I am never right doing that.
Dispute is healthy but dispute with honor.
I will always feel bad that we can't all get together even one at a time.
What a super time we could all have at a big shoot and BBQ!
Lloyd is a good man, please don't mention names.

[Frank]

44man:
Lloyd is a good man, please don't mention names.
Lloyd is his handle. He expresses opinions. He's fair game.

[Lloyd Smale]

want me to be brutely honest? For the most part i do belive you. I dont know you personaly as weve never met but you and I have been back and forth more then once here. Heres what i would say about you from what i know. I think that 99 percent of the pictures youve posted and proabably a 100 percent of the other guys youve mentioned are legit but i know you hate to loose an argument and very seldom if ever will admit your wrong (kind of like me) and maybe just maybe youd slip in one that wasnt legit to win an argument. Mostly though i said what I said not refering to you or any of the other veterans of this fourm. What I was refering to is the guys arguing against you. In case your havent noticed theres many more people on this fourm then there was years ago and many of them arent the caliber of guys we used to have. How many times have you had to argue with some no it all on some facet of say loading a 44 mag and the guy your arguing with has only one or even two 44s. You cant get any cast in concrete results when testing anything with only one or two guns or without shoot alot of differnt combinations. Ill chuckle on here occasionaly. To much of what is passed on any internet forum is just hand me down ****. Theres only really a few of us that are so addicted to this sport enough to go out and find the answers for ourselves at the range. Just a while back there was a guy argueing about which 44 bullet was the best. Part of his answer was that it shot hands down the best in all of his 44s. On a differnt forum the same day he argued that 2400 would be harder on a forcing cone then lilgun because it was a hotter powder. He had burn rate confused with flame temp and then went on to say that hed shot thousands of rounds through his one and only 44 a super blackhawk and it didnt errode anything. thats the problem with the internet. Its like the nerd at the dating site claiming hed be picking up his date in porche right after he did his weightlifting. Sorry about the long post. ive been up all night with some pretty severe back pain and the oxycodone is doing some of my talking. 44man dont think im calling your out. I enjoy your posts and think more of you then about anyone else on this forum. Sure dont agree with everything you post but then i dont allways agree with my wife kids or mother and father either and any of them is probably capable of sneeking in a target to make there point look better ;)
That means you don't believe me, or Whitworth or Bioman or Pete or Dave or Changeling or Frank any many others.
The question has never been the man shooting, only what your gun can do with what you load.
I don't care if you use a Ransom Rest. I see nothing wrong with showing what is said about a gun or boolit. Myself, I would never doubt what anyone shows. I am more interested in what a change to a load does whether you shoot 5" groups or not. Does what a man says improve anything? Does your favorite alloy shoot better then another? Do you really get good groups with pure lead at 1400 fps?
To just say is worse then one picture to compare things. Keyboard punching has created more good loads then all what anyone else can make.
Take your Ruger and shoot two different things, show the difference. What really helped? Explain why and what you have learned.
No way I can make YOU shoot but if I help 10% with your gun it means a lot to me.
Why a fear of pictures? Nobody will call you a liar or belittle you, it is what you hold in your hand that counts to me and others. I don't care if you tie it to the bench with 1000 yards of rope! ;-)
My goal is to make a revolver shoot as good as it can and that is the end, period. My learning will never end either because I never stop trying and too many times, things fail.
My pictures are fact and I post so many I have to go back and delete them because I run out of space.
I have shown this picture before, shot with 50 shots at 50 yards from my .44. Can you read it? Can you explain every shot? It is important. Would you toss this load? Or will you learn so all shots will go into the center with the exact same load?
That is why I am here, to make you think, not to brag. My .44 will do 1-1/4" at 100 yards with this same load. I really do want you to solve problems.

[Lloyd Smale]

Tell you what pal. Ive probably put as much lead downrange as anyone here. Theres a couple guys on here that actually know me and know what my ability is. thing is im a humble man and dont go around bragging on how good i am. If you want to see results come look at my trophys or talk to John linebaugh or ask the other frank on here. he owns mt baldy bullets and ive shot next to him a number of times. Any problem i have with shooting small groups is because of my failing eyes and the fact taht ive had 5 back operations lately and just have shot as much as i used to. thats changing this summer. When im healty like now theres not a week that at least 500 rounds dont go down range. Yup ive got alot of sixguns. That old saving to watch out for the guy with one is bs. To me a guy with one or two handguns is a guy that just isnt into handguns. Same with reloading. Say what your want but if you loading pistol ammo on a single stage press your not a handgun shooter or your not someone that goest to bed at night. When i give advice its real. Its not something that came from some else on the internet. It came from my 35 years of hard core shooting. Just because i dont brag about how Im the greatest shot in the world doesnt mean i cant shoot. Id dare say ive shot as many animals with a handgun then anyone here and if not im surely in the top 3 or 4. You see even this post makes me about sick to my stomac. I have to brag to defend myself and i detest doing it. So im done with it. Frank if you doubt i cant shoot the pants off of most guys here pm me and ill give you a list of the guys on here that have saw me shoot have seen my guns and have been in my loading room and seen my trophys. Youd find out that there isnt a bit of bs in anything i post 44 man and i have friendly arguments all the time and respect each other. He surely didnt need you comming to his defense.
Lloyd Smale:
What's funny is Lloyd had a post where he said he couldn't shoot a group like many others here do often. But then in countless other threads he is found giving advice, 'shoots great', 'works for me', 'does well'. This is the repeatable comedy we hear day in and day out. We never see any results from some people who also happen to be the most opinionated about what works and by what quantity of guns they own, or how many thousands of rounds they put out, so they say, then we are expected to believe their advice, especially when they have foretold us they can't for the life of them even shoot a group less than 2", and was it 50 yrds? But when one man steps forth, does some work, tells what he did and shows a good group, he is ridiculed. First they say it's done off the bench, no good. Or a tube sight was used. Bad. Or the gun is really a rifle by it's size. How rude. Or he's taking pictures at 10 yrds and claiming it's 100, maybe he's using a cover over the target so he can hide the powder burns!

For the doubter who has so many guns, maybe he should sell one, buy the one that shoots, load it the way the "liar" loads his, have a competent shooter shoot it at a target and post the result. Then he will have some kind of a basis for entering into a discussion about what shoots great, or works well.

[44man]

Lloyd and I do enjoy the friendly banter. He understands I know he can shoot and am only interested in the difference that some change can make, even with the same boolit. All the little variables done when loading.
I challenge an idea and what affect it has over another idea.
Newer guys don't understand that.
That is what I try to do. I show what some process can change and it's affect.
Lloyd knows I only have one .44 left too but have owned a ton of them and still work with many that are not mine. Only economics and fixed income but mostly the desire to buy other calibers. Way too many fine guns have had to go.
Again Lloyd is right, if you only have one gun, one boolit, one powder and say it does this or that, you just don't have the years of experience to match my 56 years of shooting and study of the revolver or his experience either.
It is true I get revolvers to shoot but it did not come overnight or from one gun.
It is the hardest thing to explain things in print where one picture has impact to make a guy sit back and think more.
Try to explain how to take a Mark II apart and put it back together by saying to remove part A from part B and assemble in reverse without a picture! [smilie=l:
I still have the smallest 100 yard group! Best one out of six. [smilie=p:

[Frank]

To me a guy with one or two handguns is a guy that just isnt into handguns. Same with reloading. Say what your want but if you loading pistol ammo on a single stage press your not a handgun shooter or your not someone that goest to bed at night.
Perhaps. But I don't need a bunch of guns to be happy. When this hobby too gets dull, I'll just sell them all off. Same with the rifles. Sometimes a man has to move on. [smilie=1:

[44man]

Perhaps. But I don't need a bunch of guns to be happy. When this hobby too gets dull, I'll just sell them all off. Same with the rifles. Sometimes a man has to move on. [smilie=1:
One gun is a teacher, it never gets dull. Never give up. Every single thing you learn will add to knowledge and transfer to another gun.
Get one doing what you want and put it up to move to the next. But if one gun is done, no need for another in the same caliber unless you love it.
Some have hundreds but none shoot. Like the guys coming to a range with a trunk full. Shoot a thousand rounds and switch to another. Spray and pray!
I really loved the fancy dude with fancy shooting duds. had a super fancy rifle with the best scope and all the very best rest equipment. Silent, never talked, don't bother him.
We get done shooting to check targets and he sees my pistol group is 1/4 the size of his with open sights at 100 and I am shooting from the side of my leg.
I laugh when he packs it in. Too good to talk, too good to ask questions.
Met many at IHMSA shoots and other shoots, even archery. Dead, hard pan, got angry when my friends and I joked and laughed when one of us missed. Even more angry when we soundly beat them.
Seen an archer miss and wrap his expensive bow around a tree.
Shoot with me and grin and laugh, no tight butts allowed! [smilie=l:
Serious work is at the bench, shoot for fun.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats one thing ive been trying to do for the last couple years. Get off the bench where like you said is nothig but work. Now i go to the range and i limit myself to about a hour on the bench and then spend a couple hours just relaxing and shooting. Only problem i have is im running out of rocks to shoot in my pit!! that in my opinion is the only downside to buying many guns. Seems like in the past as soon as i got finished with my bench work another gun or two found there way into the safe. Now that im retired i dont have a ton of money like i did and gun buying has draticaly slowed. I wont say ill never get another new one. But there sure wont be many. Ill miss the excitement of opening up a new ruger box and seeing whats wrong with the new gun ;)

[44man]

thats one thing ive been trying to do for the last couple years. Get off the bench where like you said is nothig but work. Now i go to the range and i limit myself to about a hour on the bench and then spend a couple hours just relaxing and shooting. Only problem i have is im running out of rocks to shoot in my pit!! that in my opinion is the only downside to buying many guns. Seems like in the past as soon as i got finished with my bench work another gun or two found there way into the safe. Now that im retired i dont have a ton of money like i did and gun buying has draticaly slowed. I wont say ill never get another new one. But there sure wont be many. Ill miss the excitement of opening up a new ruger box and seeing whats wrong with the new gun ;)
I am at the point I hate to waste lead so I built a better trap. It is so big and heavy it will take a few years shooting before I try to empty it! :mrgreen: 55 gal plastic drum full of rubber mulch. I can't even roll it.

[44man]

Lloyd sent me a picture to post. Now I know why he doesn't post any, it was huge! :drinks:
Anyway it is at 75 yards, shot with a 92 Rossi .357 that was converted to a 32-20, not an easy one to get shooting.
118 gr boolit, 14 gr of Lil'Gun, CCI SPM match primer (Good choice.)
It is a nice round group. Good shooting for that caliber.
I can move it to another forum for you Lloyd if you want.

[Lloyd Smale]

that will do pal. Just wanted to post a picture so the no one can say i never did. Maybe ill post it in the lever forum too and tell the whole story on that gun.

[Bass Ackward]

Waste lead? oh my gosh! It's an American's right to waste lead.

I tried yelling bang when I was a kid and it just didn't cut it. Caps were a disappointment.

It ain't how many guns a guy has or had or molds or anything else. It's about varied shooting interests and experiences that gives you the broad horizons. And they change over the years. The question becomes do you limit your interest or give it every opportunity to develop?

You can't get those at a range or when your gun is in the house or the truck or is out of ammo. Too heavy, too long, too something that got it left behind only to miss another shooting opportunity.

It is THAT shooting opportunity that sharpens the senses for utmost concentration and focus. (memories) That's why guys hunt or compete. Without it, you need discipline which is work .... and a picture. And so many shots and pictures and that goes out the window. Yell bang, bang.

I reload to shoot. Handguns are bagged to insure that I did that well so they will perform better off hand. Once they are there, the companion they become and real handgun learning starts.

Everything up to that point was like polishing your shoes and taking the bath for the date. This whole board is nothing but the Dating Game anymore. Are you going to call her or just sit with the guys and argue who's pant creases look sharper? There is certainly nothing wrong when you are on that date with checking your breath at times, as long as you went.

Hand gunning is a lifetime of instinctive memory "of body" and mind. Fun repetition (memories) are better, teach you more, and last longer than work ones.

Smile, click.

:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Yep Bass, we still waste a lot at long range but my 50 yard target is on the trap. At least I can save that lead.
Can't find WW's anymore here and the scrap yard will not sell anything to the public anymore.
Nothing I shoot at 100 or more can be saved, too much rock, nothing left except dust. :veryconfu

[44man]

that will do pal. Just wanted to post a picture so the no one can say i never did. Maybe ill post it in the lever forum too and tell the whole story on that gun.
I love a good lever gun. I had an original Marlin 25-20 long ago with a perfect bore and my brother-in-laws had original WW 32-20's.
The ones I miss most are the Marlin .22 Mounty and the Marlin .35. Then there was a mint WW model 71. Just tears left!

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale:

sorry but pictures passed on the internet mean nothing to me. Its way to easy to shoot at 50 yards anc claim a 100. If i trust a mans word its as good or better then any picture he posts and if I doubt a mans word im sure not going to trust his pictures.

Lloyd Smale:

Frank if you doubt i cant shoot the pants off of most guys here pm me and ill give you a list of the guys on here that have saw me shoot have seen my guns and have been in my loading room and seen my trophys. Youd find out that there isnt a bit of bs in anything i post 44 man and i have friendly arguments all the time and respect each other. He surely didnt need you comming to his defense.

There is no reason to doubt someone posting a picture. If they show their load and it is reasonable, they are simply showing their work and most will accept that. When a teacher asks, "Where is your work?", would you produce your diploma's and a list of your friends? Sorry, pal. That doesn't cut it. ;)

[44man]

Lloyd Smale:


Lloyd Smale:


There is no reason to doubt someone posting a picture. If they show their load and it is reasonable, they are simply showing their work and most will accept that. When a teacher asks, "Where is your work?", would you produce your diploma's and a list of your friends? Sorry, pal. That doesn't cut it. ;)
While I ask for such things Frank, it must be strictly technical. Never ask how a man shoots, ask what he did to make the gun shoot. Compare what works against what does not. I have tried to explain this position forever but there is always friction caused that should not be there because someone will not understand.
Ask me to explain how to shoot cast at 2000 fps from a 30-06 and I will laugh, I have not shot cast from a rifle for so long I am stupid with them! [smilie=l: Yet it is still of interest. Nothing goes to waste here. A good group shows a man has worked out the details, how and what is the important thing. The same as showing a barrel full of lead or a clean one, a wrinkled boolit against a perfect one.
Lloyd showed and if I get a 32-20, I will now ask him for help.
Beyond that, we must let it go, don't push.

[Frank]

44man:
Beyond that, we must let it go, don't push.

Lloyd Smale:
Ill miss the excitement of opening up a new ruger box and seeing whats wrong with the new gun.

Now substitute the word Freedom and watch what happens. [smilie=p: They need to stop pushing.

[white eagle]

its like having a bunch of money everyone wants to have it
and some will do anything for it

[44man]

its like having a bunch of money everyone wants to have it
and some will do anything for it
Money is strange! Never having much can make a man self reliant, learn to fix almost anything, do almost anything until technology overcomes us. Open the hood of a new car!!!:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu
Many of my neighbors are rich, spend all day at work and sleep at home, doing nothing but paying someone else to cut grass, landscape and work in the house. Stare at the bank book while never living at all.
One had solar power installed on his roof, $30,000 that he will never recover. He stares at the meter and keeps shutting stuff off so he can sell power back. He has more money then God!
All I want is enough chew, some drink now and then and a few good guns that work. My good wife has always had control of the money and I dare not waste any.
The most important thing is experience and knowledge and trying to share it. I do a lot of work for neighbors, cover my expense, keep your money or buy me a six pack or a bottle.
Friends, not just someone next door. Land to hunt without having to ask all the time. Help if I need some.
Friends! [smilie=s:
Want to hear something funny? I live in a HOA where shooting and hunting is not allowed according to the paper work. :bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

I used to have a SRH in .454. I still have Ruger factory 30 mm rings for the SRH, a Weigand base, 250 primed Starline brass, Hornady dies and a Hogue tamer grip if anyone is interested.

[RobS]

Brass Maybe if I can afford it; PM your direction.

[Lloyd Smale]

frank my setiments exactly. Its why i dont see a need to post pictures of groups. Why should there be a doubt when i say a certain gun will shoot a load into an inch at 50 yards. Why should you doubt my picture? Well i ask why should you doubt my word? Its been good enough for everyone one else for my entire life. Pretty much think its good enough for an internet forum. My point is that anyone who is disonest enough to lie about how well his gun or he himself shoots surely is disonest enough to show so trumped up targets. Anyone that is honest enough not to lie doesnt need to show me targets. I take them for there word. In the years ive know 44man hes been called out about his accuracy claims a number of times. Mostly by people that dont shoot enough to really learn to master a sixgun. Because they cant they feel nobody should be able to. Me i know better. Ive never once accused him of stretching the truth. Only banter we get into is when he starts slaming a certain brand of gun that ive had great luck with. As to me slaming ruger. Ill say this. I doubt theres to many people that have boughten a number of ruger guns that havent gotten a bad one. Do i dislike rugers. Hell no. I own more rugers then all the other brands combined. I understand when i buy them that im not buying a handfitted jewel of a gun. Im buying a ford not a lincoln. Ill back away from this post now as the last thing i wanted to do was cause friction.
Lloyd Smale:


Lloyd Smale:


There is no reason to doubt someone posting a picture. If they show their load and it is reasonable, they are simply showing their work and most will accept that. When a teacher asks, "Where is your work?", would you produce your diploma's and a list of your friends? Sorry, pal. That doesn't cut it. ;)

[Frank]

Lloyd:
Why should you doubt my picture?
I don't. You don't post any. But you have explained yourself now enough to me so I understand you. I'll take that into consideration now.
Lloyd:
Well i ask why should you doubt my word?
It's not personal. Asking to post a pic is just a general statement to anyone who claims a load or gun shoots. The internet is loaded with posts that say "shoots great" or "works for me". So now I have to take an extra step and sort out who's being honest and who's not. Now I have to weigh other variables. Too complicated. Just like the teacher, I need to stick to a general rule. Let's see the work. Show us a specific gun, what you've done. What's really amazing is when people are simply asked to show some work, nothing is shown. Not you specifically, but in general. Provide us with some details. When they say, "Works for me", then I ask "How far was the target?" Some will then become irritated with the question. Then the guy says, "Seven yards!" Now there will be people who will ask, "What is wrong with 7-yards?" :groner:

[High Desert Hunter]

I have fired a few thousand 454 loads with H110 and bullets ranging from 255gr up to 345gr, I have used near starting loads in all of these, and have never had a single hangfire or misfire in either my Super Redhawk or Freedom Arms, this in temps from -30 to +105. The only hangfire I have ever had was in my Super Blackhawk 44 Mag, load was H110 under a 250gr Keith, temp was right at -30, and it only happened 1 time out of 50 rounds. These days I tend to use more 2400, HS6 and Unique if I'm not looking for near top loads, mostly because I have more of it on hand. Sorry to dig up such an old post.

[44man]

I have fired a few thousand 454 loads with H110 and bullets ranging from 255gr up to 345gr, I have used near starting loads in all of these, and have never had a single hangfire or misfire in either my Super Redhawk or Freedom Arms, this in temps from -30 to +105. The only hangfire I have ever had was in my Super Blackhawk 44 Mag, load was H110 under a 250gr Keith, temp was right at -30, and it only happened 1 time out of 50 rounds. These days I tend to use more 2400, HS6 and Unique if I'm not looking for near top loads, mostly because I have more of it on hand. Sorry to dig up such an old post.
No problem.
I was given a bunch of .357 loads to give a friend just for the brass, I don't know if I would shoot them. I found one with a large dent in the primer but with the bullet still in. I pulled it to find it had powder that was not discolored so it was a bad primer.
The truth is we had more trouble with the .454 then any other. Stuck boolits, etc. Even factory cast loads with super hard crimps pulled in a few shots to tie up a SRH. It scares me to have a guy get a failure and fire another behind it and is why I posted to start with.

[High Desert Hunter]

I don't doubt people have had problems, been reading about them for years. I have always used the same combination with very few exceptions. In the 454 I stick to 2 brands of primers, Winchester and CCI, primarily Winchester. I have had more hangfires with rifles in very cold temps, which is why when I lived near Fairbanks I used mostly magnum rifle primers for everything in the winter. So many variables, even the guns make a difference.

[44man]

I don't doubt people have had problems, been reading about them for years. I have always used the same combination with very few exceptions. In the 454 I stick to 2 brands of primers, Winchester and CCI, primarily Winchester. I have had more hangfires with rifles in very cold temps, which is why when I lived near Fairbanks I used mostly magnum rifle primers for everything in the winter. So many variables, even the guns make a difference.
You make a lot of sense about cold but a rifle can fail with a slow pin from frozen lube and yes oil in the firing pin of a revolver can cause it. I have never had it happen myself but will not discount it being from cold powder.
I fixed a ton of rifles from farmers in PA that would not fire at deer. I found they sprayed WD-40 into the bolts. What more can I say?
The gun might cause the hang fire, not the powder.