What a double charge will do

[snuffy]

I'm extremely reluctant to post this thread. I know I'll get a bunch of flack, no one can say anything I haven't already said to myself. My leg is sore from trying to kick my own butt.

First a few pics;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/scan0008.jpg

The last group the 44 shot. Last it will EVER SHOOT. Load data is, LEE 310 grain gc, 11.7 grains OF blu-dot, ww-lp win case oft used. Boolit lubed with mule snot, dipped and sized in a lee push through die I honed out to size to .431

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0360.JPG

Average velocity on that target is 1235 fps. These were loaded last winter. I know I was using my lee classic turret without the disc powder drop, measuring powder with my pact-RCBS dispenser. Then dumping it into the shell with the red lee funnel through the expander bell die. I was thinking right after it happened that it couldn't be a double charge. It would over-flow the case, or be impossible to seat that long boolit. Wrong on both counts. I must have dumped 2 charges and then seated a boolit. I took all the rest apart except for the three still left in the cylinder. It was the first of five shells in the cyl. I purposely seated a boolit in a double charged shell, it crunched the powder but seated without any extra force.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0372.JPG

The top strap hit the roof of the covered range,(put a hole in it, almost went through), came back down ahead and to the left of me. No sign of where the chunk of cylinder went. Luckily I was shooting alone, and my dog was in the car. I was shooting groups, had already shot 10 shells.

I wasn't hurt! Hard to believe that much going on in my hands and not a nick on me. Some black powder stains on my left hand,(I was shooting off the top of a rifle tripod rest 2 handed grip). Felt a gust of gas above my right eye, no damage to my 2 week old glasses.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0369.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0367.JPG

Boolit didn't register on the chrono, and did not hit the clean target either.

I've had this SB since 1973, I bought it used. I've had 2 new barrels put on it over the last 38 years. I'm just sick about it, that handgun was my favorite.:groner:

[Ken T]

Glad to read that you or anyone else was not hurt!

[bxchef29]

wow glad youre ok but dont give up on 44

[biker_trash_1340]

You shouldn't get any flack, glad your ok. Thanks for posting. It's things like this that remind me that if i'm not sure about a load drop or I get distracted, time to stop and double check.

[Fishman]

Wow! I am glad you weren't hurt. Thank you for the graphic reminder to be careful.

[Ugluk]

Looks like you got a bit of a leading problem in the forcing cone there mate..

Seriously, that is scary stuff. Buy a lottery ticket, it's your lucky day.
I've doublecharged a few 38s on a star, but luckily I always put a boolit between the charges..
Fully progressive is safe!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Wow, like the others I am glad you are alright. There should be a sticky on this forum where people can post pics of what heppens with careless handloading.

[DrB]

As said before, thank you for the reminder. Glad you are ok...

[snuffy]

That happened Friday, I didn't even want to look at it until tonight. I managed to get the other 3 shells out of their holes, the base pin must be bent, the cyl will only rotate with a hammer and brass punch. There's not enough left to rebuild, maybe the hammer, trigger and grip frame.

I think I'm going back to batch loading, all shells in loading blocks so you can eyeball each and every powder charge.

I been loading for over 40 years. Maybe complacency makes a person over confident? Time to re-think my procedures, then go looking for a new .44!;)

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Glad you were not hurt, and this kind of stuff should be posted! It is a very good reminder for all of us to be careful!

[Huntducks]

SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE GLADE YOU WERE NOT HURT.

I'm sure you were glad you were alone and not a bunch staring at you, things like this can happen to anyone.

If i'm using a single stage vs my Dillon SDB I always batch reload and no more then 12-16 at a time and count every stroke from my PM then look in every case twice.

I was hunting jacks W/M1 Carbine and the bolt did not close all the way dirty gun and fired a round it blew gas and powder in my face i'm glad I had a pair of Oakley shooting glasses on because it damn straight hurt.

You can replace the gun but body parts are tuff to come by.

[303Guy]

Sad about the loss of your favourite gun.:violin: That would break my heart! Glad you're OK. After my near miss (double charge in a 303 Brit with shotgun powder) and now your mishap, I think I'll stay away from faster powders that can be double charged. Powders that fill the case might cost more in the short term but ....

Actually, I was saved by a slow powder once before when the powder prevented the bullet being pushed back into the case by the one stuck in the throat!

[PAT303]

Mate,you won't get slack as people will appreciate your honesty.We had a bloke at our range do the same with a 45 and we were very lucky to get away without an injury.I now only use Trail Boss. Pat

[Bill Torzsok]

To err is human!
It is a fair bet we all stuffed up at sometime,
Glad you were not hurt.

[btroj]

Key thing is that you were not hurt.
Is kind of post is very useful as a reminder to all of us that we have a potentially dangerous hobby. This is not a hobby for the faint at heart.

Thanks for being brave enough to post this. Many would never want others to know what happened to them. Good luck in your future reloading, I have a feeling you will be pretty cautious.

[Bwana]

"I think I'm going back to batch loading, all shells in loading blocks so you can eyeball each and every powder charge."

I've been doing that way for 42 years, don't plan on changing it. It has prevented a couple of bad things from happening. Some might think it silly to have 20 loading blocks stacked up with cases. To me it just seems safer.
Every time I hear about one of these incidents I am amazed that, generally, no one is seriously injured, shooter or bystander.

[exile]

Rugers can be replaced, eyes and fingers not so easily. Sorry about your handgun, but this will probably happen to all of us eventually, and we should all keep shooting as long as we are able.

I load on a single-stage press and seat a boolit after every charge out of the powder measure, but still, you never know.

exile

[hunter64]

I have seen this happen twice at the range and it also happened to a neighbor of the father in law.

About 20 years ago my friend double charged a ruger redhawk that he just bought. I was shooting 2 stalls over from him and we were the only two people at the range at the time. When he pulled the trigger on the double charge I heard a massive boom and a scream. Blood was everywhere on his head and he was in shock gripping his right wrist. The revolver had recoiled so bad that it flew out of his hand and grazed the right side of his head just above the ear. I found the revolver about 25 feet back and loaded the truck up with our gear and took him to the hospital. He had about 10 stitches to close the wound and a broken right wrist. Thank goodness he was wearing eye protection because there was a bunch of metal fillings or some sort embedded in the plastic. His revolver looked about the same as yours.

3 years ago a guy at the range did the same thing only wasn't hurt this time, the top strap on the revolver was bowed up in the middle.

Glad you were not hurt.

[gray wolf]

Needless to say I am also very, very glad you are not hurt, nor anyone else.
But please help me understand what I am seeing.
The bullet looks to be still in the case ?
There appears to be a lot of leading in the barrel.
How did it explode like that and not drive the bullet out of the case.
Or am I not seeing what I think I am seeing.

[Matt_G]

Needless to say I am also very, very glad you are not hurt, nor anyone else.
But please help me understand what I am seeing.
The bullet looks to be still in the case ?
There appears to be a lot of leading in the barrel.
How did it explode like that and not drive the bullet out of the case.
Or am I not seeing what I think I am seeing.

The case you are looking at wasn't the case that was double charged. That is the case in the next cylinder.

[white eagle]

wow
that is terrible but glad you made it thru

[Matt_G]

Snuffy, thanks for posting this reminder and I am very glad you were not hurt.
No flak, just a couple of thoughts:
1.) Eyeballing each and every powder charge sounds good, but can fail. As we all know, some powders can "bridge" in a powder measure. It's possible to get say a 75% charge in one case and 125% of a charge in the next. Will you catch that?
If you can, have someone test you on that. Have them do that with a couple of cases in one block and then you see if you can pick them out of two or more blocks full of cases. Some can, others can't. Only one way to find out if your eyes will catch that...
2.) As others have said, the only way to really eliminate double charges is to use charges that take up at least 51% of the case capacity. Unfortunately, the powders that do this for us aren't always the best choices for our intended use. I hate it when that happens. :|
Even then, it doesn't eliminate the potential for the scenario in #1 if it is a powder that tends to bridge.

So what is the answer guys?
Weigh each and every charge then immediately seat the boolit? Not really feasible for large volume pistol/revolver loading.
Powder check dies? Incorporating these into a progressive press setup is always a good thing. Not sure what the answer is for the single stage guys.
Use a pseudo homemade check die on every case in the block? Make 'em out of wood dowels? Hmmm, anyone else have any ideas on this?

[btroj]

What is the answer? There isn't any way to guarantee no problems in ammo, or anything else for that matter. Errors happen. Best thing we can is to learn from them, see how the error might slip into our loading system, and remove trouble spots.
Failure to pay attention and understand what is happening is the biggest problem. Any automation makes this worse.
My solution. Be diligent. Pay attention. When in doubt, throw it out. Find a system that works for YOU and stick with it. Take your time. Don't allow interruptions.

We are engaging in an inherently dangerous task. Like driving a car. We can do all we can to reduce the likelihood of error but it can't ever be removed entirely. As humans we have flaws. I don't like error any more than the rest of you but I have no illusion of stopping it entirely.

[ColColt]

All I can say is WOW!!! I'm sure glad there was no physical repercussions from this. Despite the accuracy of my powder measure and my picking one out of five to dump the charge into the 5-0-5 scale for verification, I still take a block of 50 to a good light and eyeball every case. With most powders I use you can't get a double charge without spillage but, I take no chances.

At first glance I thought that was a Colt. Things may have not turned out as good as they did had it been instead of the Ruger. The one error I nearly made once was to think I was using one powder and upon double checking...AFTER I had already charged the cases but not seated the bullet, turns out as I glanced over the work bench it was another powder instead. It really pays to be vigilant. I use a single stage press because that's what I'm use to for decades and don't care for the progressive loaders. That's another accident waiting to happen, for me at least.

[Rocky Raab]

Please accept my kudos and sympathies, snuffy.

That's the first time I've ver heard of an accident by somebody using the charge and seat method - but I know of several by guys using loading blocks. The human eye is just too easily fooled into missing an odd powder level to trust that system. For me, anyway.

People deride electronic powder dispensers as being too slow, but I happily trade a few seconds of time for the absolute knowledge that every charge is weighed, displayed in large numerals and then immediately capped with a bullet.

[mooman76]

Like the rest of coarse. first and foremost glad you weren't hurt. I've never heard anyone here catch allot of flack for posting they made a honest mistake. I hope that we all learn from it and take it as a reminder what we are dealing with when we reload and make sure we are loading safe and have our mind in our loading not somewhere else. Once again glad you weren't hurt.

[Ben]

This has been like a " Good Sermon ", we all need to see it and hear about it.

It is good for all of us !

Thanks,
Ben

[cbrick]

Just as good a feeling that you weren't hurt as it is a sad feeling about the gun.

I hate those tiny charges of fast powders and rarely use them any more. When I do I use the RCBS Charge Master to dispense powder and pay close attention to the counter even though my Hornady powder measure dispenses these powders very well. When I am finished if I loaded 100 rounds the counter had better say 100 . . . NOT 101. When the powder is dispensed I pour it into the case, look in the case, put a bullet in the case and seat the bullet. It takes me 2-3 times as long to load a box of this type of ammo as it does most other things but . . .

Rick

[Echo]

+1. Thank you, Snuffy, for having the integrity to post this. Glad you weren't injured, and sorry for your loss.

[snuffy]

Thanks guys,(and gals that might be reading this). I knew I MUST post this, the pics are just too dramatic. I'm going to hang the skeleton of a great revolver above my loading bench to remind me to be careful.

The dispenser is a hybrid grey pact dispenser and a green RCBS scale, of course both made by pact. It is very accurate, just have to be sure I get the powder where it belongs.

The problem occurred because I must have dumped two charges into the case while it was still in the expander die, then didn't see it before advancing the turret to seat. Apparently blu-dot compresses easily, as it was within ¼" of the case mouth.

As for that torn up round in the next chamber, it got opened up like it had a can opener used on it, but the powder did not ignite. It would have simply fizzled anyway, no chamber to contain the pressure.

The gun did not recoil hardly at all. Other than the very loud boom, there was no recoil. The pressure must have peaked so fast as to rip the cylinder apart and shear the top strap without pushing the boolit very fast.

[buck1]

The only man who never makes a mistake, is the man who never does anything.
Thanks for posting this . You have made us ALL safer because of it . THANK YOU....Buck

[MT Gianni]

Snuffy I do the same thing that you have done with my Lyman 1200 DPS. I do make sure that I pour the powder and seat the bullet while I hear the sound of the measure filling. If I can not hear that sound I reweigh the powder in the case before seating a boolit. Glad you are OK.

[Char-Gar]

"I think I'm going back to batch loading, all shells in loading blocks so you can eyeball each and every powder charge.

I been loading for over 40 years. Maybe complacency makes a person over confident? Time to re-think my procedures, then go looking for a new .44!;)"

Snuffy.. Thanks for your honesty and reflection. Your observations and remedies are spot on. I have been at this for 50 years and briefly took a foray into progressive loaders. Doing so produced an over charge of AA5 in a 38 Special round. This was the only over charge of all the rounds I have ever loaded. I knew there was something amiss when I touched off the round. What should have been a mild 38 Special load bucked and roared with a full snort .357 Magnum load. There was stiff ejection and the primer was as flat as a fritter, but , there was no damage to me or the pistol, but that ended my progressive loading days, right then and there.

I won't seat a bullet on any load unless I have done a visual inspection of the powder column. Never again...never again!

[Dframe]

Thanks for having the courage to post your pix and explaination. Everyone needs a reminder now and then that accidents CAN happen and can sometimes be tragic. Like everyone else I'm just glad you wern't hurt.

[fredj338]

You are a lucky guy getting away w/ no injury. Expesive lesson learned. I thought for sure when I read the title it was going to be a TG blowup. I have loaded BD in the 45colt & would think 23.4gr would over flow or at least offer you some serious bullet seating effort.

[mpmarty]

I use a Dillon 550B and just make sure I advance the shell plate each time I pull the handle. No double charges that way.

[Tatume]

Sorry you lost your nice gun, and I'm glad you weren't hurt. The same thing happened to a good friend of mine, who also used a Lee turret press, and he also weighed and individually dispensed powder charges. I have also double charged cases when I interrupted the cycle in a Dillon XL650, but in my case I caught the error.

When I load 454 Casull and 45 Cold I use a Dillon 450 in semi-automatic mode. I size and bell cases, then charge 50 cases in a loading tray, and check charges with a flashlight. These are fed through the machine to seat and crimp. I find this to be a very efficient procedure.

Take care, Tom

[Harter66]

Glad you're undamaged !

I've a friend that used to mock me for loading in 9mm,40,45 trays , he said it was because i was to cheap to buy a real tray . I showed him some 9mm I had charged in the block ,there was an odd case,S&B in a flock of WW or the like,that 1 was visibly fuller than its mates i pulled it and the 8 around it weighed them all and removed that case from the block . There weren't any over/unders but that case would have been at least a flyer,had i been running max loads it most certainly would have been an overload. I've caught several bridged loads too.

[milprileb]

My son did it with Unique in 45acp.

I fired the 1911 pistol and got the drama.

I was unhurt and barrel chamber came apart in 2 pieces. Had it been a aluminum or poly frame, I doubt
I would have been so fortunate.

As a father I contemplated how to communicate to my 40 yr old son
regarding this lack of attention to detail in loading. (once my initial air burst of unspeakable words and thoughts was done).

This took a week to de compress... I am a slow learner in the art of compassion when
something explodes in my hands.

Went over to the boys house, told him to tear down all his 45acp loads. He gave me the pig looking at wristwatch expression.

Then handed him the barrel and took my leave. Not a word was needed .

However on the trip home I cussed till the windscreen fogged over.

[Piedmont]

I'm too darn cheap to load a case full of something like WW 296 in .357 or .44 mag. Plus I don't like recoil or blast if it isn't necessary and I don't hunt anymore.

So what seems would be ideal is a short case in a strong revolver. Playing with my 9mm revolver got me thinking about this. Another option is .40 S&W in a Blackhawk, and a good friend is having one of these built. Unfortunately these don't have a rim. The auto rim seems to fit the bill but the guns are weaker--even in a large frame Ruger SA you don't want to exceed 32,000 psi and it would be easy to take apart something like a 1917 Smith. We need fairly high pressures to make the full cases of fairly slow powders burn correctly.

A high pressure .38 S&W in a Security Six or Smith Target Masterpiece would be sweet. The factories would never make the ammo because of old guns, but we handloaders could load it hot. But Ruger doesn't make that gun anymore and the new S&Ws aren't something I will be spending my money on due to the locks and other issues. Maybe something on the GP 100? Or maybe a .40 S&W Blackhawk.

I'm thinking something on the order of a case full of Blue Dot to the bottom of the bullet.

[Finster101]

Like the others I am glad that you are okay. That is the single most important thing in all this. I use a single stage press and I have one reloading block. It only receives finished rounds. I do every thing in batches deprime and size. I have two baskets, the brass travels from one to the other as the stages are done. When charging and seating the primed, sized brass is charged and immediately seated with the boolit. Directly from the scale or powder measure. I have on occasion been interrupted by the phone or someone walking into the garage and dumped the powder back into the measure. I know you large volume progressive guy are different but this work well for me. I generally can have a few thousand primed and sized cases around and it takes very little time for me to charge and seat 500 or so.

[1Shirt]

I managed to blow up a nice 77 Ruger 06 from a double charge. Didn't get hurt except for feelings. After that incident, If the charge doesnt fill at least half the case, I weigh all finished cases. Takes a little time extra, but provides a lot of peace of mind!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[birdadly]

Glad you're okay Snuffy! I'll still take advice from someone in your shoes, even moreso now after such a humbling experience.

I've been wondering about these dang powder measures myself. Last week I reloaded my first ever 20 rounds (45ACP) and I ended up weighing each and every drop because it was dropping it seemed to be so inconsistant. Maybe it just needs to get broken in.

Thanks for your honesty and story for us all to keep in mind! -Brad

[wallenba]

In my case I had missed charging some cases while using the Lee turret. Boolit was stuck at the end of the cylinder. From that day on I have done ALL my priming and powder charging off press. Then when the loading block is full I visually check each one before going to the press.
I then size, expand, seat and crimp. I feel a lot more confident since.

[XWrench3]

well, that SUCKS!! glad your ok though. the pistol can be replaced, you can not. any one of us here could do the same thing. i have used the wrong data (i misread what the book said), but got lucky, and there was no real damge to the gun. and then there was the time i touched off the 300 win mag, with a laser bore sighter in the barrel (i was distracted by someone wanting to talk) . the barrel didnt survive, but i did. so i feel your pain!

[Lizard333]

Glad your not hurt. What kind of pistol was it?

[Bill*]

[QUOTE=snuffy;1285680]
I wasn't hurt! Hard to believe that much going on in my hands and not a nick on me. Some black powder stains on my left hand,(I was shooting off the top of a rifle tripod rest 2 handed grip). Felt a gust of gas above my right eye, no damage to my 2 week old glasses.

Glad you're not hurt, If it happened to me there would be more stained than just my hand :mrgreen:

[shotstring]

Congratulations on surviving the most feared accident in all of reloading. And as others have said, it is difficult to prevent an occasional occurance of a double charge over an entire lifetime of reloading. That is why I am always a bit nervous about using my Dillons but when I do, the only stage my eyes stay glued to is the powder station.

I literally watch the powder flow into each and every case. The rest of the stuff like placing the bullet on the case and putting the primer in place a person can do entirely by feel. So no need to watch anything else.

But when I REALLY want to make sure that I prevent ANY chance of a double charge, I load on a single stage press with a little dandy powder measure. I fill up a loading block with cases and after each one is filled with powder which I watched go in and watched the powder level in the case, I then do a second safety measure.

I take a pencil in my right hand, and stick the eraser end into the case filled with powder move my fingers down until they touch the top edge of the loaded case. That tells me the proper length of fill on the case and I then quickly put the pencil into every single case and my fingers should just touch the sharp case edge on every single case. It is so simple and can be done so quickly, yet it guarrantees that not one of the cases contains either a double charge or anything off by more than a few tenths of a grain of powder.

I can then shoot with complete confidence when I have to fire rapidfire through an expensive competition gun with a hand I have grown fond of keeping.

[Bass Ackward]

Congratulations on good health.

I am not convinced that this was a double charge. The fact that nothing was in the bore or registered on the chrono or target leads me to believe that the slug never entered the bore.

When you look at the leading pattern of the forcing cone and understanding that you have a very WIDE meplat bullet, I wonder if it just caught the end of the cone and hung up on the barrel.

Stuff happens as guns grunge up. Wide meplats hang up first.

So are wadcutters some of the reason for 38 blows that people just believe is human error? Maybe it's mechanical? The problem is that high pressure generally blows the evidence clear and leaves you with one conclusion.

Added: Looking at a large pistol primer, it appears that the primer can be set off .060 off from dead center. If you multiply this by two for diameter and subtract it from bullet diameter, you get .311 which is 72% of bullet diameter. And I suppose that it could even be worse if mechanically your gun didn't have the primer strike dead center or dead center on ALL chambers. (Ever wonder why old time cast designs never had WIDE meplats?)

(You knew this was coming) Should revolver bullets have meplats above .72% from a safety standpoint?

[Bass Ackward]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Snuffy. Your sacrifice has paid dividends at least for me.

I just checked all of my guns and my Redhawk has one chamber that will not index properly if you offer some slight drag on the cylinder with your hand to simulate fouling.

This will need to be rectified. Thanks, or I could have been posting here in the future. And my grandkids too since this is the piece that they generally use.

Coarse, all my handgun designs are 70% or less on the meplat too, but why risk it?

[captaint]

Snuffy - Thanks for the info. This helps us all, to know it can happen to anyone. A shame about your Ruger, though.
I keep threatening to get a progressive press, then I read something like this and I put the project on hold for a while. Maybe when I retire and have more time to shoot. When I load my ammo, I take the fully prepped cases, primed, and dump a powder charge - look in the case, and insert boolit and seat. That's great for now. Maybe I'll take the plunge one day.
Glad you're OK... Mike

[firebrick43]

Some of you are deriding progressives but they "CAN" be the least fault proof solution. Notice I said "can"!

I have a rcbs powder checker die in my dillon 650 and the indicating rod is at eye level. Not only will it check for drastic over charge/ squibs but i can tell if the load is off +\- .2 grains or more. (rare). This die also worked well in my lee loadmaster except I had to seat/crimp in the same die due to where/how it primed. It would work in a four station or turret press as well if you seat/crimp with the same die as well which is not ideal but it does work for most combos.

Now you still have to look at it but it's right there in your face and even low volume fast powders are easy to check in large volume cases unlike doing it by eye.
Rcbs makes a powder cop die that locks the press up if things are to out of wack and dillons checker sounds an alarm. Both of these check for gross differences and not minor ones but you don't have to look at the die every time.

On non progressive presses A better solution to looking in cases is to take a small section dowel rod that fits in the case easily but not to small and mark a line at the case mouth for that charge.

[1bluehorse]

The only way to get a double charge on a progressive press is to short stroke it. A squib load would be much more apt to happen IMO. And the OP was not using a progressive press. By the way Snuffy, I'm also very glad you're O.K. A definate wake up call for all of us I'm sure...pretty dramatic photos. Thanks for sharing.

[Centaur 1]

I don't believe that there's a person here that would look down at you for making this mistake, we appreciate your honesty and willingness to share. This is a sobering reminder of why it's necessary to avoid complacency when reloading. Sometimes reloading can get boring but posts like this will make us all think twice about cutting corners to save time. I'm sorry about your gun, but more importantly I'm glad that you're ok. Thanks for sharing.

[Ugluk]

The only way to get a double charge on a progressive press is to short stroke it. A squib load would be much more apt to happen IMO. And the OP was not using a progressive press. By the way Snuffy, I'm also very glad you're O.K. A definate wake up call for all of us I'm sure...pretty dramatic photos. Thanks for sharing.

With the Lee powder measure even a short stroke won't double charge if it is reset by means of the chain rather than the spring.
I can't figure out a way to get a double charge on mine as the press won't let the shell plate rotate backwards. Squibs yes, doubles no.

[snuffy]

BA, that Ruger was precisely in-time. Each and every chamber clicked into the lock slot just as the hammer reached full-cock. AND the sixteen fired shells all have primer dents dead center on each one.

Those boolits were leading the beginning of the rifling and the forcing cone. The bore at the end of the barrel is clean however.

Sad part is that barrel only had maybe 200 rounds through it since it was replaced the last time. I hadn't been shooting the .44 much as of late. I was looking forward to shooting it more now that I'm retired. Oh well, at least I still have a full compliment of fingers and eyes!:smile:

[Bass Ackward]

BA, that Ruger was precisely in-time. Each and every chamber clicked into the lock slot just as the hammer reached full-cock. AND the sixteen fired shells all have primer dents dead center on each one.

Those boolits were leading the beginning of the rifling and the forcing cone. The bore at the end of the barrel is clean however.

Sad part is that barrel only had maybe 200 rounds through it since it was replaced the last time. I hadn't been shooting the .44 much as of late. I was looking forward to shooting it more now that I'm retired. Oh well, at least I still have a full compliment of fingers and eyes!:smile:


So you have the case head that caused the problem? I am not interested in the ones that worked as they will look fine.

Really? See indexing at the top of the stroke (full cock) clean and cold means to me that there is little wiggle room for failure. It means that as wear occurs, you are trusting that little spring that powers that stop to finish indexing the cylinder so that you NEVER see the problem. Any friction from fouling OR heat can cause the problem. Heat is something that you CAN'T see. And can't test for the metal expansion that occurs when it does. Heat expansion occurs but is often unpredictable. This is why you need to use your fingers for resistance so that you can see if it really IS the hand that is indexing or not. Hand is safe, spring is not.

But if you have the fired case, then you know for sure.

By the way, have you TRIED to load 23.4 gr of BD? I did and it just fit in the case with maybe 1/16th" to spare. I tried to seat a short 200 grain bullet in it and could not without more effort than I wanted to subject my press too and it still looked like dodo. Bulged the case so it wouldn't chamber in anything. 200 grain. Oh by the way, did I say it was only a 200 grain? And it lengthened back out in front of my eyes so that it wouldn't index anyway. And you said that you loaded these last winter? 44man would LOVE your case neck tension!!!

So unless your set up is hydraulic or your SB chambers were sloppy as he!!, I doubt it was a "double" charge. 1 3/4 maybe, but not double.

The new hand went in last night. I now index at just over 1/2 cock dead slow. :grin: I keep spares around for this reason, just who remembers to check? Again, thanks for posting this.

[snuffy]

But if you have the fired case, then you know for sure.

Nope, no sign of where it went. BUT I didn't spend much time looking for it or that chunk of cylinder, I was in shock even though there was no physical damage to my body.

If what you say were happening, then the fired cases that led up to the cats a$$ trophy would show some indication that it wasn't indexing properly.

Yes I did try that double charge, as I pulled the remaining shells apart, I dumped two measured charges into one case. Then I seated one of the pulled bullets. It went in all the way and crimped. I did not leave it loaded, pulled it right apart. I may try that again AFTER I plainly mark it so it never gets chambered, may use a fired case so no live primer.

I appreciate the attempt to diagnose the problem, to try to place the blame elsewhere. Even an off center alignment wouldn't cause that kind of damage. I'd think the bullet would shear. Yeah that would cause a high pressure event, but not enough to blow the cyl. The round blew so fast that it didn't even recoil. That's the first thing I noticed, other that the strange report.

[firefly1957]

Glad you are OK sorry about your gun.
Thank you for posting it is a reminder of the reason to avoid distraction while reloading.

[Bass Ackward]

If what you say were happening, then the fired cases that led up to the cats a$$ trophy would show some indication that it wasn't indexing properly.


No. Not on a Ruger. Everything will be fine and show center if it enters the notch. It was only one chamber on my Redhawk. So primers on the others would have shown normal. The new hand only had to be .003 longer. .005 longer and it wouldn't work with some of the other chambers until it was shortened to .003.

And rotation will be the best when the cylinder is balanced. (6 empty or 6 loaded) The most unbalanced after shot 3 as 4,5, and 6 will all be on one side.

Which shot in the sequence was it?

[Racer X]

I once caught myself at the loading bench about to throw an overload. My usual load of AA#5 for my 45 Blackhawk was not metering well. I checked the scale and discovered I had it set to what would have been nearly a double charge.

Midrange loads with powders like AA #5, Unique, etc. might be economical, but you can't argue that the slower powders add a measure of safety.

[Clinebo]

Glad you didn't get hurt. Thanks for posting. That must have been quite a shock.

[snuffy]

Which shot in the sequence was it?

First of five. Chamber next to the one that busted everything was empty. I really paid attention to this back when I first bought the gun used. It was intended for IMHSA shooting.

It had less than 200 rounds since being back to Ruger for a new barrel, so I'm sure timing was checked before returning it to me. They do a magnificent job when they get a gun back for a second go-around for a new barrel. It was better than a new one.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/P1010003.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/P1010002.JPG

That's how it looked the day I got it back. I should print one of those 8X10, then put the remnants along side the picture, then mount it on a plaque over my loading bench. Maybe a slogan, take your time be careful, no experiments1

[DrB]

Snuffy, when I first read your post it caused me to do a bunch of sober thinking about my reloading and shooting.

It also made me recollect an incident I had had at the range with my Ruger Blackhawk recently. I'm sure what I eventually came up with won't be news to some, but I didn't have a clue about this indexing characteristic of Ruger single actions.

My Blackhawk is a .357 original three screw, built in 1972, which I bought a couple of years ago.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de86ffb0eb84.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1056)

I've been shooting it a lot recently, mostly with light 38 special wadcutter loads, and a few heavier 357 magnum loads.

Last month I was at the range shooting, and had a failure to fire (<click>). I put the gun in half-cock, rotated the chamber under the hammer to the loading gate, and observed what appeared to be a pretty good primer strike just on the edge of the primer where it met the case. The gun had been functioning flawlessly with nicely centered primer strikes, no shaved bullets, no problems at all. I was very puzzled. So instead of stopping till I figured it out like I should have, I then rotated this cartridge back around till it's chamber was next in line for the hammer, cocked the pistol, and squeezed it off. It shot fine, no problem. The primer strike was perfectly centered, everything was nominal. I continued on for about 70 or 80 rounds before going home.

Tonight I went through my spent brass and below is what I believe is the cartridge from last month:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de86ff9cda6a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1054)

Notice the primer strike (7 o'clock at the edge of the primer).

So thinking about this in light of your blown up gun, the obvious occurred to me (maybe not right, but seems an obvious supposition). Maybe I was lucky as h*ll that chamber hadn't fired. (It also occurred to me that maybe I was a fool for continuing to shoot the gun as though nothing had happened, instead of stopping cold and figuring things out).

So I went out to the shed tonight to try to replicate this. Placing the gun in half-cock and loading spent brass in the chambers, I then took the gun to full cock and fired. (Note that this was MY habitual procedure -- IT IS NOT how you are supposed to cock a Ruger single action after loading). Between half-cock and full-cock I also sometimes rotated the cylinder slightly as might happen during use between loading at half-cock and full-cock.

Below are the results from two different loadings of six spent pieces of brass, each fired repeatedly... probably around a couple hundred drops of the hammer.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de86ffa5c1fb.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1055)

As you can see, the firing pin impacted the case out of index repeatedly (11 different times, I believe, out of a couple of hundred hammer drops). I think some of these strikes could easily have fired a live round out of index.

Note that the vast majority of times I was unable to get an off index strike even by lightly playing with the rotation of the cylinder, and never got an off index impact for a number of the chambers even though I tried several times. In normal shooting even cocking improperly, I think that for my gun this happens on the order of ~1 in a 1000 rounds.

I looked up the manual for the three screw blackhawk (shoulda read it more carefully) and found the following:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de87f230c55a.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1062)

With a sufficiently hard cast bullet, especially with a flat or HP nose, and a hot load, seems to me like this is a recipe for a blown cylinder (and maybe hand and/or face).

Given that it was the first round you were firing, and you didn't find any double charges when you dissembled your ammunition, are you SURE that you returned the hammer to safety cock as stated in the manual prior to full-cock BEFORE you squeezed that one off? :-|


Anyway -- snuffy, I doubt I would have realized I was abusing my blackhawk by how I loaded and cocked it if I hadn't read your post (even if this has nothing to do with what actually caused your blow-up).

Although I don't know for certain this can cause a cylinder to blow-up, I'm pretty convinced that each time I loaded that cylinder, then pulled the hammer from half-cock to full-cock (without dropping it to safety cock first) I was rolling the dice. Maybe the chamber would index properly -- almost all the time it does (a bad index has happened maybe 2 out of ~1000 rounds for me). Maybe the primer doesn't fire if the chamber is out of index -- mine hadn't the couple of time this happened, and you can see from the pictures that several of those firing pin strikes couldn't have fired the primer (maybe less than two in ten would?). Maybe on firing the bullet nose hits enough of the forcing cone and indexes the cylinder, or manages to shear into the forcing cone and mostly ricochet down the barrel. But maybe instead with a relatively hot load a bullet gets stuck against the edge of the forcing cone on the way out and you've got a sealed chamber in your cylinder full of burning powder...

Does anyone KNOW whether or not this hypothesis ever happens?

The evidence that would support or disprove this as a cause of a gun blow up would be 1) an operator who was going from half-cock to full-cock after loading, 2) the primer under the hammer (if it could ever be found). If there was a centered primer strike -- DISPROVEN. If there was a wildly eccentric primer strike -- SUPPORTED. Probably have to be really lucky to find the primer from the blown chamber!

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have one of those old flatop Ruger in 357/38/9 mm convertible and I will take heed of your warning about the proper handling of the gun before going to full cock.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to bring it up here.

[DrB]

Nope, no sign of where it went. BUT I didn't spend much time looking for it or that chunk of cylinder, I was in shock even though there was no physical damage to my body.

If what you say were happening, then the fired cases that led up to the cats a$$ trophy would show some indication that it wasn't indexing properly.

Yes I did try that double charge, as I pulled the remaining shells apart, I dumped two measured charges into one case. Then I seated one of the pulled bullets. It went in all the way and crimped. I did not leave it loaded, pulled it right apart. I may try that again AFTER I plainly mark it so it never gets chambered, may use a fired case so no live primer.

I appreciate the attempt to diagnose the problem, to try to place the blame elsewhere. Even an off center alignment wouldn't cause that kind of damage. I'd think the bullet would shear. Yeah that would cause a high pressure event, but not enough to blow the cyl. The round blew so fast that it didn't even recoil. That's the first thing I noticed, other that the strange report.

Snuffy, I'm tending to think BA's got a point. Yeah, double charges happen, but there's some mighty suspicious circumstantial evidence in this instance.

Re: "If what you say were happening, then the fired cases that led up to the cats a$$ trophy would show some indication that it wasn't indexing properly." No, my experience/experimentation suggest that this may only happen rarely on the first round after going from half-cock to full-cock.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de86ffa5c1fb.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1055)

(to Snuffy) Did you FOLLOW the warning in the ruger blackhawk manual to always go from half-cock to safety-cock prior to full-cock after loading? (Not faulting you if you didn't -- I had no clue. And when I had a couple of out of index firing pin strikes out of about a thousand rounds I was bunny-licking dumb enough to basically say "Huh, well ain't that curious." and go back to doing what I was doing.) :oops:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de87f230c55a.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1062)

(to Snuffy) BA has a point about the chrono too, I think... that bullet if aligned with the barrel should have been blown down it. There's nothing magical about the bullet that, absent something mechanically retarding it, it wouldn't fly down range in response to the gas pressure just like the cylinder pieces flew outwards. Double charge or not, that bullet should have flown.

(to Snuffy) Re: "The round blew so fast that it didn't even recoil." If the bullet didn't go down range before the cylinder blew out with the bullet because the bullet was retarded from moving by the forcing cone, there wouldn't be much (perhaps any) rearwards recoil. Conversely if that bullet was free to move and was exposed to the kick from that pressure spike it should have been launched down range, and there should have been recoil (maybe wrist slamming recoil). That also supports the hypothesis that the round wasn't free to fly.

(to BA) I don't find any reason in what I've read so far to think that this operator cocking related indexing issue should occur with redhawks -- they are all double action, right? However, I haven't mechanically worked through why it would or wouldn't happen for either. Maybe it could... would need to understand the mechanisms better for each. But I do know from experimentation that it DOES happen with black hawks, and ruger's manual states it's a characteristic of single action revolvers, so presumably their manual is suggesting it might happen in ruger's other single action revolver models.

For the single action rugers, though, even if you try to make it happen it may only happen once every few dozen tries. Someone who doesn't shoot much might own a gun for decades and a few hundred rounds with nary a problem. I'm also curious about how robust Ruger's proposed procedure of going to safety cock first is... the way they've written it kindof makes it sound like you could still mess it up if you didn't do it right.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_154544de87f230c55a.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1062)

[Bass Ackward]

Great find.

I am fairly convinced this wasn't a double charge.

This is kind of good ammunition (pun intended) for the 45 vs the 44 guys. Especially for hard and wide cast since you have a greater margin for error on meplat width as bore diameter increases being that primer size stays the same.

.452 - .120 = .332 which is @ a 74% meplat and still go down the pipe if it went off. But this is still a long way from the 80%ers that guys like to run. Hope folks understand and get this info correct to be safe.

Thanks Doc.

[10x]

Shrapnel ??? Is that you???

[snuffy]

Doc, The procedure you're describing is for the old style blackhawk. The new style doesn't load from the half-cock on the hammer. It loads when you open the loading gate which cams the lock tab down out of contact with the lock slot,( my terminology is terrible, I know). This allows the cylinder to freely rotate so you can load. Then closing the loading port returns the lock tab to the next slot it encounters.

My procedure was to always roll the cylinder back to the last hole, which when loading five rounds was vacant. Then bringing the hammer to full cock would result in the first round of five to be fired. It would be the same if loading six. I don't know what would happen if you simply closed the loading gate, then cocked the hammer. I suspect the hand would rotate the cly. to engage to lock.

BUT, your advice is not wasted. I too have a .357 3 screw that's so worn out I have retired it. I still drag it out to remind myself why it's retired. I may send it in to Ruger to have it converted to the safety bar system, I believe they return the old parts so it could be returned to it's original condition. It needs a new barrel so the excessive cyl. gap would go away.

I may get up to the range where this happened, I have to report why there's a gash it the metal roof next to the shooting bench, caused by the top strap. It's a private range, the 25 yard range doesn't get used much, so the evidence should still be there. I'll look around for the offending case, I would be delighted to find an edge strike of the primer. That would ease my conscience about my loading procedures. It would also explain the heavy leading of the forcing cone. IF the boolit was off center, that would cause heavy leading as it tried to get through while shearing in half. Also why it blew the cylinder without recoil.

To hijack my own thread, I should be receiving my order from Brownells today, the bullet test tube. I got both the rifle and handgun tubes. From this outfit;
http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

No more lugging water filled milk jugs, then attempting to catch the boolit/bullet. I want to test both point configurations of the last Miha 45-200-HP. Some say the wax media they use is too thick, it doesn't duplicate flesh. Well nothing does, but at least this stuff is consistent from shot to shot.

[DrB]

hmm...


"Boolit didn't register on the chrono, and did not hit the clean target either.

I've had this SB since 1973, I bought it used. I've had 2 new barrels put on it over the last 38 years. I'm just sick about it, that handgun was my favorite.:groner:

When you said you had it since 1973 I assumed it was an old model (would have to be, wouldn't it?).

I guess what you are saying is that you had the transfer bar & loading gate modification done? Or did I misunderstand?

Still sounds like it could have been an indexing problem, although the caution was removed from the new model manual, and the mechanism is different. I wonder if anyone who has the same model could do what I did and play with fired cases trying to get a miss index after loading.

I really hope you are successful in finding that fragment of case head. Might have ended up on the roof along with the top strap. :D

Re the bullet tube, I just put in for the miha 45 200 gr mold rerun with pentagonal pins... Really interested to hear about your findings! Hijack on!

Best regards,
DrB

[snuffy]

Doc, I don't know for sure if it was 1973 or 4 or maybe even 1975, but it was an original new model, slightly used. The shop I bought it from said he thought it had only been fired ONCE! The owner didn't know what to expect from the then most powerful handgun. I'm not aware of when Ruger changed from the old to the new system, but I do know this one is unmodified. (Memory is a terrible thing to loose).

I was messing around with my old model .357 blackhawk, just as you found, I could make it go to full cock, after spinning the cylinder at half cock, WITHOUT locking the cyl. Did it once out of maybe 30 trys.

I think I'll leave her retired, I have a brand new GP-100 that I need to get shooting boolits.

[DrB]

according to ruger, 1974 was the year. :)

I've avoided having my ruger modified as I understood it affected the trigget pull, and I love mine the way it is.

I had no idea of the timing issue.. I thought the mod was just for the transfer bar! I always figured if I ever hunted it i'd carry it on an empty chamber and be good to go.

maybe I should have the mod done.... Long as I get the parts back and it's reversible.

[cbrick]

Odd, very odd. I just placed a reply and poof, its gone, nowhere to be found. Try again.

When Freedom Arms first started making revolvers I bought a 10" 454. That's all they made at that time, if you wanted to shoot the FA you shot a 454.

First time at the range I had the hammer fall and no boom. A while later it happened again. Back home in the loading room I noticed a firing pin strike on the cylinder and another on a case head next to the primer. I was loading the cylinder with the hammer at half cock where the cylinder spins (of course) and then going to full cock from there. Most of the time there is no problem but most of the time is NOT all of the time.

It made the hair stand up on the back of my neck and sent shivers down my back thinking what would have happened with full power 454 loads had one of those out of battery shots hit the edge of the primer and gone off. In fact to this day it still does whenever I think about this.

I saw the light, bells were ringing and children were singing. I couldn't force myself since that day to put my finger on the trigger without doing the following first with any single action revolver. Load at half cock, close the gate and then lower the hammer down to the safe position, with the free hand rotate the cylinder until it locks. Most of the time it will not rotate because it is locked in battery but again, most of the time is NOT all of the time. Pull hammer back to full cock and again check the cylinder to make sure it is properly locked and in battery.

I didn't dodge a bullet that day, I literally dodged a large hand grenade. Those two out of battery misfires were a valuable lesson that I was fortunate in the extreme to have learned the easy way.

Rick

[cbrick]

I had no idea of the timing issue.. I thought the mod was just for the transfer bar! I always figured if I ever hunted it i'd carry it on an empty chamber and be good to go.

You can do that BUT . . . You must after loading it lower the hammer to the safe position or even full down if you are positive it is on an empty cylinder AND THEN rotate the cylinder until it locks in battery. Every once in a while when you try to rotate the cylinder IT WILL ROTATE. That is the time right there had you not tried to lock the cylinder but instead pulled the hammer to full cock and fired that it is out of battery and it could well fire that way. Believe me, you do not want it to fire like this.

Rick

[dverna]

It is one reason I try to NEVER shoot alone. If something happens, help may be needed to get to a hospital. I also will not shoot another persons reloads unless I know them very well and "trust" their ability. Lastly, if someone wants to try out your gun, insist on them using your ammo or factory.

I believe most of these "accidents" are caused by people using charge weights that can be double charged and presses that do not auto index.

Don

[snuffy]

Well, a trip back to the range today netted me the remains of the offending brass case. What little remains. I took a pic, but the camera refuses to up,off-load or transfer or whatever it does to get on a file in my computer.

Anyway to the chase. The base is still intact, but the side of the case is only ¼ remaining. Important part is; the primer was struck dead center. It did NOT fire in an unlocked alignment.

Once I figure out this confounded camera, I'll post a pic or 3 of that brass disaster.

[DrB]

Snuffy, know you were answering your own questions, but thank you for hunting down that case!

Reality is. Gotta have data to know it, and you went to the trouble of finding and passing it on. Good to know this couldn't have been a mis-index...

best regards,
DrB

[watkibe]

I'm glad you weren't hurt ! Thank you for having the balls to tell us about your mistake. As grown-ups, we are supposed to be able to learn from the mistakes of others, so let's do it !
BTW, I have double charged cases twice myself. Neither was as catastrophic, although one sent my SP-101 back to Ruger for cylinder replacement. The double charge bulged the chamber, so rounds would fire in it, but not extract.

[snuffy]

Well for what it's worth, here's the brass.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0386.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0385.jpg

[Bass Ackward]

Glad I came back to see you found this. As bad as it was, I find that it is always better to know than wonder. And it may have saved others as it already has with me.

This was an experience that one can do without and the cost never approaches the emotion, fear, and loss. But that brass is a great find that will be well worth your time to locate and a good keepsake / reminder.