Penta hollow point expansion

[DrB]

Put in for a group buy with penta hollow point pins... Those mihec molds look outstanding.

Was wondering though if anyone has pictures of expanded cast penta hps? Do they petal as you would expect?

would also be great to hear any anecdotal experience. I killed a decent buck last year with a 45 acp gold dot and was impressed how well it worked. Was hoping that the pentas might function as well with a 20:1 alloy at around 900fps?

Would be glad to profit from any experience out there.

Best regards,
DrB

[outdoorfan]

Several pictures on this posted already. Check the" hollow point expansion" threads. I've posted a few pictures on the penta in .45 Colt.

[DrB]

Thanks. Tried several word searches without luck before posting.

I'll see if I can find them by going through your old posts.



btw, if anyone who has penta hp's comes along in a laconic mood, something like "sucks" or "great" would be helpful.

[L1A1Rocker]

Thanks. Tried several word searches without luck before posting.

I'll see if I can find them by going through your old posts.



btw, if anyone who has penta hp's comes along in a laconic mood, something like "sucks" or "great" would be helpful.

I recall a thread where someone posted pics of round and penta hollow points fired into wet newspaper that were very impressive. I cannot seem to find them though. Perhaps someone can help with this.

[DrB]

Just what I was looking for. Sorry if there's a bettet way to copy this... Still learning the interface.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1075009&postcount=17

[DrB]

Pentagonal as the search term worked well. There are several good threads with pictures. Thought this was a good one too.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=112725&highlight=Pentagonal

[fredj338]

Put in for a group buy with penta hollow point pins... Those mihec molds look outstanding.

Was wondering though if anyone has pictures of expanded cast penta hps? Do they petal as you would expect?

would also be great to hear any anecdotal experience. I killed a decent buck last year with a 45 acp gold dot and was impressed how well it worked. Was hoping that the pentas might function as well with a 20:1 alloy at around 900fps?

Would be glad to profit from any experience out there.

Best regards,
DrB
Yep, if the alloy & vel are right. This one is a lyman converted by Erik before Mihec was making them. A 20-1 alloy may work @ 900fps, but I doubt below that.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg

[Shooter6br]

With the right alloy matched to velocity my 45ACp HP Milhec did better than Hornady HP's

[DrB]

thanks fred, 6br. How's penetration? Adequate for a broadside heart/lung on a 100 lb whitetail?

[MtGun44]

Posted before but . . . .

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=2905

Note that I have shot many commercial loads into wet newspapers and wet phone books
and my penetration is essentially identical to half of what the pros get in calibrated
ballistic gelatin with the same loads. So expect about 11.5" of penetration in ballistic
gelatin from that load.

Exactly how that relates to a person is very complex, but the FBI wants to have 12" of
minimum penetration to pass their test, so this one is just short. I think for most
applications, where you are NOT shooting through an obstacle, this would work pretty
well. Dry material like sheet rock or heavy clothing that clogs the HP has been generally
shown to dramatically inhibit expansion. I would think that carefully filling the cavity with
RTV silicone would be just like the fancy self defense loads that have polymer filled
HPs to avoid this plugging issue. Just be certain to fill the cavity, probably need an
large gage needle to inject at the bottom to avoid an air pocket.

Bill

[fredj338]

thanks fred, 6br. How's penetration? Adequate for a broadside heart/lung on a 100 lb whitetail?

Well, anytime the bullet starts hitting 75cal, penetration is going to be limited by the wt behind it. That bullet starts life as a 215grLHP, so it might have enough mass to give a thru & thru if you run it 900fps. Right now, I have only shot it in wetpack & it penetrates as deep as 230grRGS. I have other more suitable hunting calibers. Really for a 45acp, I wold want less expansion for a hunting bullet, & ideally, complete penetration. So a cup point wold be a better bet IMO. Minimal expansion, w/ exc penetration. For hunting, I don;t think there is such a thing as over penetration as long as the bullet does damage on it's way thru. A ragged bullet meplate will do more damage than a smooth rounded one.

[DrB]

Yeah, fred... They do look kinda like a lead parachute when expanded. :)

Agree with ya on the through and through. Hunting blood trail in thick cover at night is a pain... And I've fought the snow once and rain a couple of times following a trail.

also for thoracic shot deer where heart/major vessels aren't well ventillated, the extra hole helps collapse the lungs more quickly.

[troy_mclure]

ive used hexagonal hollow points successfully before on deer.

http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm

[fredj338]

ive used hexagonal hollow points successfully before on deer.

http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm

I have found the Ranier plated HP erratic in expansion, would not use them for serious hunting or SD.

[troy_mclure]

ive never recovered them, they always punched thru both sides of the deer. used in both .44mag, and inline muzzleloader.

[DrB]

Troy, thanks for the data point.

[fredj338]

ive never recovered them, they always punched thru both sides of the deer. used in both .44mag, and inline muzzleloader.
There ya go. Might as well use the FP, sim results.

[DrB]

I hear ya fred... And those plated bullets are close to j-word, right. :)

Troy said he was using'em out of a 44 or in line ml, though, so I would suspect higher than 900 fps. Didn't say anything about exit wound size... Why assume they didn't expand. Maybe a 1200 fps mv and if they hold together wouldn't an expanded penta exit on a rib to rib shot on whitetail?

[troy_mclure]

it was the 300gr ones. in the .44mag they were running near 1400fps, and the inline was running just over 1400fps.

the exit wounds were just bigger than a Kennedy half dollar. iirc the same size as the speer 250gr soft hollow point i used to use. i always went double lung, never shoulder, so there isnt that much muscle for the hp to expand from.

i did find the hex hollow points slightly more accurate from the m/l than the flat points i used for practice. but that could have been the length.

[DrB]

I dunno, but I don't sees any reason to think they didn't expand, troy. I'd expect through and through at that velocity and 300 grains.

I'm a bit sceptical one of those pentagonal lead parachutes would go through at less than 950 though from a 45acp... Have to play with them I guess, and boy, they do look good regardless. :D

[fredj338]

I dunno, but I don't sees any reason to think they didn't expand, troy. I'd expect through and through at that velocity and 300 grains.

I'm a bit sceptical one of those pentagonal lead parachutes would go through at less than 950 though from a 45acp... Have to play with them I guess, and boy, they do look good regardless. :D
It would depend on alloy. Cast them soft, 25-1 for under 900fps. Cast them a bit harder, say 20-1, then 1000fps is possible & I bet they stay together & not expand as much. I'll have to run some "harder" ones off & see how they do pushed beyond 900fps in a 45colt maybe.
Wetpack tests are fun & have given me very sim results as to what I get from actual recovered bullets, when I can recover a bullet. I would think, if you could get a good broadside double lung shot, it would exit a medium size deer. In wetpack @ 850fps, it goes about 10". I would expect double that in flesh.

[outdoorfan]

I shot a wt doe last year at close range (20 yards or so) with a RCBS 45-270-saa boolit that was cast out of 30-1 and sported the Mihec penta HP. I was elevated in the stand, so the angle was somewhat steep. It was mostly broadside, but slightly quartered. Ribs were hit (if I remember correctly), but not the shoulder. The boolit did not exit, but it did punch an exit hole and just barely lodged in the outer skin. Velocity was 875-900 at the muzzle, and the petals expanded nicely, although not as much as when I tested that same boolit and load in water jugs.
The weight of that penta HP boolit is around 270-275 grains.

[DrB]

Thank you very much:smile: for the follow up! That's the kind of info I was hoping for.

[outdoorfan]

One sample doesn't mean much, so always take that with a grain of salt.

[DrB]

One sample means a lot relative to no samples. :smile:

thanks.

[snuffy]

Well, here's one sample, the first of many I will generate.

The one on the right is a penta point from the last run of Miha's cramer HP in 200 grainers.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0383.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0382.jpg

Wound channels in the bullettesttube expansion media. It's a wax type material, much denser than tissue, but completely re-useable .

1st is the reg round HP.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0379.jpg

Then the penta point, looks like it opened late, then veered sharply to one side. I had to dig for it, approx. 1 inch.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0378.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0373.jpg

These were cast from a dead soft alloy, about 90-1 lead-tin.(a 90 pound machine weight that is about 7-8 bhn, alloyed with 2 8 oz. rolls of lead free solder , 95% tin 5% antimony. I suspect the machine weight has possibly ½% tin in it.

Load is 5.7 gr. WW-231, win brass, WLP primer, approx 950 fps.

[CPL Lou]

Thank you for your post snuffy, was nice of you to take the time to share your results.

[Jailer]

What alloy were those cast with snuffy?

[DrB]

Much obliged, snuffy! :-D

That looks like it would be a neat tool to play with. Guess you use boiling water or such to remelt the tubes?

I'm curious... Are you testing for hunting, self defense, or plain curiosity? If hunting do you have any theories as to kind of penetration in your media you want for something like whitetail?