LLA and neck tension

[subsonic]

The load I make up by the hundreds for general .38 plinking is as follows:
Lee 358-148 WC, cast of air cooled WW and sized .358" with a Lee sizer and tumble lubed with slightly thinned LLA. I shoot this over 3gr of Rex 2 and whatever small pistol primer I have on hand, usually CCI. I use mixed brass I've accumulated. I seat it below the case mouth and crimp over it - this contains the LLA somewhat to reduce the mess and gives a rounded front to the case from the roll crimp to make the cartridges easier to shove into the cylinder. This load shoots OK out to about 25yds, 3" or so from my worst gun. Plenty good for teaching others, plinking, and rapid fire. Nearly worthless at 50yds and beyond.

So I had one that did not fire. My assumption was that it did not have powder. The boolit stayed in the case and did not budge from the primer. Shaking it revealed powder rattling around inside. I dropped the hammer on it several more times from SA (longer hammer throw than DA) and tried 2 different guns. Primer was indented quite deeply by the time I was done. I think I remember hearing a light pop when it did not fire the first time, but I cannot say for certain... so I cranked it into my inertia bullet puller and proceded to pound the snot out of it so I could do a post mortem. The boolit never moved! No matter how hard I slammed it into the end grain of my wooden block, the boolit refused to budge! So now I'm thinking... and this is not the first time I've tried to pull one of these that was lubed with LLA... does the LLA increase neck tension, sort of like a glue? I do know that if you get LLA buildup in your seater die and it ends up on the outside of the case, it greatly increases extraction force! I one time had to hit the extractor rod with a rawhide mallet.

I think I'm going to screw a wood screw into it and try to pull the boolit that way. I may cut the case with my tubing cutter if all else fails... but I want to see what happened here.

Anybody have similar experiences?

I plan to run a little "test" in the future. Seating similar boolits with and without LLA, leaving them sit for a week, then getting a feel for how much force it takes to pull the boolits. Should be interesting. Will probably chrono both ways too.

[44man]

First, never hit the extractor rod, you can bend or break it. Take the cylinder out and use a dowel.
The LLA might glue the boolit so let us know what you find.
I will not use the stuff.

[harvester]

too much crimp

[Doc Highwall]

From a lite load like that I would crimp just enough to take the flair out of the case mouth and no more. The crimp you are putting might be sizing the bullets down as they leave the case mouth causing the inaccuracy at 50yards and beyond.

[leadman]

Push the bullet into the case a little farther to break the seal. This is what I do with military surplus ammo that has the waterproofing sealer on the bullet.

[subsonic]

Well, I can't find that bad cartridge. Might have thrown it away in disgust? I'm sure I'll have another one eventually.

I just cast up about 1100 358-148 WCs, and have about 950 left after sorting. I plan to run the test mentioned above this week. I'm also playing around with using LBT blue-soft to tumble lube per Veral's directions. I wonder if it will stick cases if it's on the outside? Wonder what is in LBT Blue?

[44man]

It is still an interesting question because lube should---well, lube.
Lot's of ways to break the bond with the brass so it pulls.
I don't know if it is crimp because I have pulled factory loads like the .454 using my inertia puller. Of course the bullets weigh more too.
I am inclined to think the lighter boolits are harder to move.

[Treeman]

It is the degree of crimp. I've pulled many LLA lubed bullets without incident.

[jerry_from_ct]

3 grs. sounds a little light for the 148gr w/ #2

Does Rex show data for 38 standard loads ? the 38 +p shows 4.0gr, at a 20% reduction that's still 3.2grs and that sounds light.

"Just sayin"

[pdawg_shooter]

When I want to pull a cast bullet I run the round up in my press and grip the bullet with a pair of wire stripper pliers. Lower the ram and it is out! Quick, easy, and painless.

[Doc Highwall]

pdawg_shooter, the trouble with his bullets is they are seated just below the case mouth so there is nothing to grab onto. But you are correct the only thing would be to melt the bullet down and if there was a gas check on them skim them off the lead and re-expand them and use them over.

[subsonic]

Once my LLA is "cured?" I'll seat 3 with LLA and 3 lubed w/LBT Blue in my lubrisizer and note seating force and start my weeks wait to (attempt to) pull them.

FWIW, this load clocks almost 800fps give or take from a 2.5" 686. 3gr is a good load. 3.5gr is getting warm and I wouldn't recommend it for non +P guns and seating below the crimp groove. The 4.1gr load is listed as a +P load, again FWIW. I have never chronod any that hot, but would be surprised if they didn't get 950 out of my 2.5" gun.

[subsonic]

When I want to pull a cast bullet I run the round up in my press and grip the bullet with a pair of wire stripper pliers. Lower the ram and it is out! Quick, easy, and painless.

This is a great technique if there's anything to get ahold of!

[jerry_from_ct]

Once my LLA is "cured?" I'll seat 3 with LLA and 3 lubed w/LBT Blue in my lubrisizer and note seating force and start my weeks wait to (attempt to) pull them.

FWIW, this load clocks almost 800fps give or take from a 2.5" 686. 3gr is a good load. 3.5gr is getting warm and I wouldn't recommend it for non +P guns and seating below the crimp groove. The 4.1gr load is listed as a +P load, again FWIW. I have never chronod any that hot, but would be surprised if they didn't get 950 out of my 2.5" gun.

Rex2 seems to mimic Hodgdon Universal in the load charges. according to your data Rex appears a little hotter.



110 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.455" 5.0 968 11,800 CUP 5.6 1143 16,700 CUP
125 GR. CAST LRNFP Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.445" 4.3 872 8,700 CUP 4.7 1036 16,800 CUP
125 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.455" 4.7 918 12,600 CUP 5.2 1019 17,000 CUP
130 GR. MEI CAST LRNFP Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.460" 4.7 957 13,500 PSI 5.2 1056 16,000 PSI
135 GR. CAST LRNFP Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.418" 4.1 924 13,400 CUP 4.6 1025 16,900 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.455" 4.3 832 12,400 CUP 4.8 939 15,400 CUP
146 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.370" 4.0 788 11,100 CUP 4.5 933 16,100 CUP
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.160" 2.9 709 7,400 CUP 3.8 940 15,600 CUP
158 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.475" 3.5 756 9,600 CUP 4.5 974 16,700 CUP
158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.455" 4.0 678 12,600 CUP 4.4 778 16,200 CUP
170 GR. SIE JHC Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.450" 3.8 744 14,100 CUP 4.2 823 16,100 CUP

[mroliver77]

You need to remember that his is not a hollow based wadcutter but a solid. Loaded below flush leaves little room in the case. Sounds like the 3gr load is perfect. I agree with losing the crimp. Since I get much more soft lead than WW I would cast these much softer.
Jay

[jerry_from_ct]

The Rex powder seems like a good buy for the stated results from users and the addl. amount for the price, if one could find it.

I would have no issues using it, just wish they had more published load data as opposed to best guess trial and error.

[zxcvbob]

I'm using Rex-3 in .38 Specials and .41 Magnums, kind of pretending it's Universal Clays. I wish I had bought more, cuz I really like it and when this is gone, there is no more. The Rexplo 21 plant in Hungary closed down. I posted a link to the news article last night in another thread.


You need to remember that his is not a hollow based wadcutter but a solid. Loaded below flush leaves little room in the case.Hollow base or solid does not make any difference on how much room is left in the case. 148 grains of lead takes up the same volume regardless (took me a long time to figure that one out)

[mroliver77]

Hollow base or solid does not make any difference on how much room is left in the case. 148 grains of lead takes up the same volume regardless (took me a long time to figure that one out)

Ouch! I guess an old dog can learn a thing or two! I had to think on that a bit, but you are right.
Thanks for straightening me out Bob.
Jay

[35remington]

I'd guess dud primer. A live primer easily has enough power to shove a bullet out of a case and through the minimal resistance of a revolver cylinder. Even if no powder is present.

The high pulling force needed is due to the fact nearly the entire bullet is bearing surface. Lots of friction to hold it in place. Add a crimp over the front and you've got a hard to pull bullet.

The only thing harder to pull are some of the .22's and similar small bullet rounds due to little inertia. A collet puller works better on them. Too bad you've no bullet protruding to grip.

My guess is that LLA does not act as a glue.

[44man]

I'd guess dud primer. A live primer easily has enough power to shove a bullet out of a case and through the minimal resistance of a revolver cylinder. Even if no powder is present.

The high pulling force needed is due to the fact nearly the entire bullet is bearing surface. Lots of friction to hold it in place. Add a crimp over the front and you've got a hard to pull bullet.

The only thing harder to pull are some of the .22's and similar small bullet rounds due to little inertia. A collet puller works better on them. Too bad you've no bullet protruding to grip.

My guess is that LLA does not act as a glue.
Best answer so far. Boolit inertia and case tension.

[subsonic]

I just loaded a few of these loads up for some friends to blow off at 7yds and hopefully learn something or at least have fun. In my mixed brass I recently acquired a handfull of PMC .38 specials. After seating and crimping I noted some of the PMC brass looked like a martini shaker and had a rub mark at the highest point on the outside where they hit coming out of the crimp die. Apparently the cases are thicker at a higher point than most and the bottom of the wadcutters made them bulge. Of course these also did not fit in the chamber of the sloppiest .38 I have (I tried).

So I figured out how to pull them. I didn't even try the inertia puller this time. I used a 3/32" drill to make these boolits "hollow points". BE CAREFUL HERE! They get kinda warm when you're drilling and I could see somebody running the drill too fast and setting one off in his hand. Not good!

Then I took a drywall screw and screwed it into the hole I made, ran the ram up until the cartridge was sticking out of the top of the press, and used a claw hammer to catch the head of the screw. Lowering the ram (with a lot of force) pulled the boolits. These had only been loaded 1 day and were in there like they were glued. I pulled just hard enough to break and straighten out the crimp and pulled again to see how much the crimp was doing. I could not feel a difference. The crimp was contributing very little to the force required.

Next Wednesday (1 week) I will pull a few LLA boolits, LBT Blue lubed boolits, and a naked boolit and compare the force it takes. I have some made up without crimp also.

[subsonic]

Here's a couple pics worth a few words. I used a pair of channel locks to hold the cases when I was drilling and running the screw in. The cases were a little scratched up, as you might expect, but I didn't care because I was throwing them away anyway (don't need the headache from 10 oddball brass). I think I have a better idea to hold the cases for next time.....

[tek4260]

So what is the final word on LLA acting as glue. I am shooting the Ruger only 300gr HP over 24gr of H-110 and I was hoping to be able to add some LLA to my already sized and lubed boolits. I was hoping this would allow me to add more straight lead to the mix and soften the boolits for deer while still running them to the max.

24g of H110 is a hot enough load. I don't want to add to it by gluing my booilts in the cases.

[44man]

So what is the final word on LLA acting as glue. I am shooting the Ruger only 300gr HP over 24gr of H-110 and I was hoping to be able to add some LLA to my already sized and lubed boolits. I was hoping this would allow me to add more straight lead to the mix and soften the boolits for deer while still running them to the max.

24g of H110 is a hot enough load. I don't want to add to it by gluing my booilts in the cases.
I really don't think so. Rolling this over and over, I think it is boolit weight that makes it hard to pull them. I feel you are good to go.

[subsonic]

So what is the final word on LLA acting as glue. I am shooting the Ruger only 300gr HP over 24gr of H-110 and I was hoping to be able to add some LLA to my already sized and lubed boolits. I was hoping this would allow me to add more straight lead to the mix and soften the boolits for deer while still running them to the max.

24g of H110 is a hot enough load. I don't want to add to it by gluing my booilts in the cases.

The general rule is always work up to your load. If you don't show pressure signs - hard extraction, excessive case expansion, and scary primers, use the LLA.

I will pull my glubed boolits next Wednesday and see what I can see. I'm not sure that the glue is a bad thing anyway... once upon a time a guy named Lee Jurras (Super-Vel) was using case mouth laquer.

[35remington]

A glue?

C'mon. You've seen its characteristics when dried completely.....you can scrape it off easily with your fingernail. It hardly has the tensile strength of any type of glue. It's more like stiff grease.

And grease is hardly glue.

Epoxy, JB Weld or one of the super glues it ain't.

[subsonic]

My post was poorly worded. I meant to say that "if it is acting as a glue, that may not be a bad thing." Not to declare it glue, especially not before pulling the boolits.

[subsonic]

Three weeks later.... (at least it is a Wednesday)


Let me start by saying my results are based on too small of a sample and contained too many variables to be the final word on this topic.

What I observed does not suPport mu theory. I reversed my seating pressure arm(thanks 44man) and promptly found that all boolits required more force Than I could generate with the spring steel rod. So I was unable to quantify the required pressure and had to go by feel alone.

The unlubed boolit required the most force by far. Boolits lubed with lla and lbt blue felt about the same. Boolitsjthat were crimped pulled with similar force as those that were not crimped.

I think this merits further experimentation with more samples and better control of variables. Maybe wiping driving bands clean can increase neck tension?

[44man]

You can shorten the rod or go to a thicker one if you exceed what you have. Play with it and it will work.

[subsonic]

You can shorten the rod or go to a thicker one if you exceed what you have. Play with it and it will work.

I had considered that, but was worried about bending the existing rod and did not have a thicker one on hand. I will probably do another experiment with a thicker rod and more samples.

For what it's worth, boolit diameter (or rather, the difference in diameter between the case neck and boolit) seemed to matter as much as anything other than not having any lube at all. It's not surprising that lubrication reduces friction.