Tried Water Hardening Today

[ColColt]

Today I cast about 12 pounds of 50/50 lead-Linotype from a 38 cal mold I got from Dan of Mountain Molds that checked out as BHN 15.4. I decided to try the water hardening I've read about and did about 20 like that and checked those for hardness. They turned out BHN 18.6 according to the Lee tester. I thought they would be harder than that but that's still a jump. I only used a small two quart container filled with cold(for this time of year) tap water.

I don't know that I need BHN 18 or so for the 357 Magnum with 13.5 gr of 2400. According to the Lyman manual a load of 13.5 gr of 2400 is max for the 357 and a 170 gr boolit and pressure is shown as 41,100 CUP but I can't relate to that. Wish they had shown it in psi but I imagine it's around max for the 357(35,000) so, BHN 18 may be too soft for that much pressure...maybe BHN 22 would have been best.

[waksupi]

I'm kind of surprised they tested that hard. Generally mine will test as pure lead when first quenched, and harden over the next day. Yours should harden more with a little time. It isn't instant.

[ColColt]

I was anxious to see the outcome and checked it about an hour or two after they dropped. I'll check again tomorrow or Sunday to see if there's any change.

[onondaga]

Quenching by dropping does work. Keep in mind that the hotter the boolit when it is dropped and the colder the water it is dropped into that the harder the boolits will be.

The seconds difference in dropping time can run hardness numbers to vary significantly.

Oven tempering is much more controllable and consistent. I drop boolits on a dry towel when casting. When I am done casting I place my boolits in an aluminum brownie pan then into the kitchen oven at 350 degrees, Kitchen ovens swing about +- 20 degrees or more so 350 is good and safe, When they have heat soaked for 1 hour, I dump them all at once into a bucket of ice water.

Try that with your boolits and I bet your 15 BHN mix will go to 22 BHN or higher. If you really need your boolits that hard, that will do it and do it consistently.

Gary

[ColColt]

The way I did it was to cut the spruce and after several seconds I opened the mold over the water bowl and let them drop in-no lag in time getting them there. So, they went directly from the mold to the water.

I don't feel I need BHN 22 but 15-18 has a place for the velocities a 357 can deliver. I try to match the hardness of the boolit used with the velocities I'll have with a given load.

[L1A1Rocker]

Quenching by dropping does work. Keep in mind that the hotter the boolit when it is dropped and the colder the water it is dropped into that the harder the boolits will be.

The seconds difference in dropping time can run hardness numbers to vary significantly.

Oven tempering is much more controllable and consistent. I drop boolits on a dry towel when casting. When I am done casting I place my boolits in an aluminum brownie pan then into the kitchen oven at 350 degrees, Kitchen ovens swing about +- 20 degrees or more so 350 is good and safe, When they have heat soaked for 1 hour, I dump them all at once into a bucket of ice water.

Try that with your boolits and I bet your 15 BHN mix will go to 22 BHN or higher. If you really need your boolits that hard, that will do it and do it consistently.

Gary

I like your method. I may do that rather than water drop as shown on Miha's web site.

[NuJudge]

Colder water should not do that much to increased the severity of the quench. The only thing my Met Lab experiments showed would increase the severity of the quench, was to use brine (salt water). My professors' explanation was that the salt inhibited bubble formation, keeping more water in touch with the metal, increasing heat transfer.

. . . but you really don't want salty bullets, do you?

[RobS]

Quenching by dropping does work. Keep in mind that the hotter the boolit when it is dropped and the colder the water it is dropped into that the harder the boolits will be.

The seconds difference in dropping time can run hardness numbers to vary significantly.

Oven tempering is much more controllable and consistent. I drop boolits on a dry towel when casting. When I am done casting I place my boolits in an aluminum brownie pan then into the kitchen oven at 350 degrees, Kitchen ovens swing about +- 20 degrees or more so 350 is good and safe, When they have heat soaked for 1 hour, I dump them all at once into a bucket of ice water.

Try that with your boolits and I bet your 15 BHN mix will go to 22 BHN or higher. If you really need your boolits that hard, that will do it and do it consistently.

Gary

All from the guy who believes that a person is better off using mixed lead alloys to meet the hardness needed and also a person who was snuffed out regarding boolits loosing their hardness in 1 to 2 years. Take it for what it's worth but it's hard to listen to a person who says in one thread it's better one way and then gives knowledge in another.

Taken from: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1247543#post1247543


I believe you would get better results using an alloy that is the hardness you need with out water quenching. The treatment of quench hardening is not permanent and BHN returns back close to untreated hardness in 1-2 years.

Use The alloy that is correct for your needs and drop bullets onto a dry soft towel and air cool. They will not fully harden to their natural capability for about 5-7 days so you have time for sizing/checking when it will be easier.

Anyway a light lube with LLA, 45:45:10 or even case lube before sizing bullets makes even pretty extreme sizing easy. I size .514" R.E.A.L bullets to .501" in #2 alloy with one easy pass after lubing them. I don't have the muscle without the lube.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/th_TLsized.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/?action=view&current=TLsized.jpg)

Lubed unsized/ sized a bunch!

Gary


ColColt:

Your boolits will become harder in 24 hours no doubt. Consistency in your casting technique and mold temperature, which is the same if you are casting air cooled or water quenching, is the key to having consistent boolits. It won't matter if they are dropped on a soft towel or if you drop them in a pail of water simple as that. BABore has proven and I'll agree that consistent casting rhythm will give you a steady BHN on your water quenched boolits. Oven heat treating boolits does make it easier for a person who doesn’t have good rhythm or if a person wants harder boolits. The Lee chart is not an end in itself either and many experienced casters here on the forum will testify to this vs those who say that the Lee Chart is the "Golden Rule".

If you haven’t already, take a look at this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=116495

[RobS]

"The treatment of quench hardening is not permanent and BHN returns back close to untreated hardness in 1-2 years."

Now you are giving it up on water quenching and oven heat treating. Where are your experiments to having water quenched or heat treated boolits as your reference. You never responded back to the other thread once BABore and others stepped in regarding BHN lose............you were silent. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1247543#post1247543 I don't see how a person can give sound advise when they make a blanket statement as such.


I do believe you have great contributions elsewhere on the forum when you are not providing your absolute commentary or contradicting statements.

[onondaga]

RobS: the lower the amount of Antimony in the alloy the more the treated alloy will revert. That is something I have learned.

I didn' t see a point in continuing a discussion in the post you mention. There was too much bickering there.

NuJudge:The point about salt is interesting and a new one for me. Thank You! Also I like the ice water because the temp is an easily repeated temp constant from batch to batch. I don't think the the difference in hardening with ice water is terrific either but I believe it enhances hardening enough to be statistically significant compared to room temperature water.. I haven't done a lot of hardening in recent years since I got a large load of Linotype that has been great for alloying.


Gary

[RobS]

Gary:

ColColt was casting with 50/50 lead-lino so there's more than enough antimony there. Most people are also using alloys that have enough antimony and you know it as well as I do or anyone else for that matter who’s been working with antimony alloys. Additionally, water quenching or heat treating an alloy with insufficient antinomy that will revert back in a year's time to an air cooled hardness makes no sense at all in regards.

[45nut]

getting out of hand and personal. if this continues I will personally hand out vacations.

[leadman]

To the OP: Water quenching works and you will have a boolit of sufficent hardness for just about any velocity level a 357 Mag. can dish out.

I shoot 12 to 15 BHN bullets out of a 30-06 up to 2,000 fps with no issues.

[Plinkster]

Colder water should not do that much to increased the severity of the quench. The only thing my Met Lab experiments showed would increase the severity of the quench, was to use brine (salt water). My professors' explanation was that the salt inhibited bubble formation, keeping more water in touch with the metal, increasing heat transfer.

. . . but you really don't want salty bullets, do you?

I thought salt killed slugs? Terrible I know but I felt the mood needed lightened :roll:

[ColColt]

I checked this morning and actually the hardness level was the same as yesterday. Perhaps it takes a bit longer to harden a little. Still, I was surprised at the jump yesterday from 15 to 18 just by water dropping.

I keep a pretty good rhythm slowing down only if it takes longer than usual for the spruce to harden. I cast these boolits at about 675 degrees and all bands filled out nicely and the diameter was about .0015 larger than when I air dropped them. Sometimes I think I get too caught up in this hardness ting but conversely, I also believe you can use too hard or too soft a boolit for a given pressure as well. More important is the throat diameter and casting to that size...generally.

Rob-I've read that before but not close enough. I'll look it over again-thanks.


I thought salt killed slugs? Terrible I know but I felt the mood needed lightened

You done good, Plinkster.

[geargnasher]

Ok, there is some some information that has yet to be given. Colcolt, first you need to understand that your alloy probably has little to no arsenic in it, and arsenic is a catalyst for hardening, especially so when water-quenching or heat treating. Basically arsenic (found in wheel weights and shotgun shot) will make your boolits reach their hardness more quickly. Lino/pure will take much longer to age than WW/pure, even though the first will have much more antimony and tin and will ultimately be harder.

It might take two months or longer for your alloy to reach full hardness if air-cooled.

And for bubble prevention, I'm surprised Waksupi didn't mention adding a squirt of dish soap to the quench water, he mentioned it to me once and it makes a big difference in the amount of "sizzle" the boolits make, I think it reduces the surface tension of the water and lets it "wet" the surface more quickly and evenly. I've gone one step further by adding a tablespoon of Cascade to four gallons of water, seems to work even better.

One more thing, and let me preface it by saying I'm not trying to be a jackwagon to you but to clear up a commonly misused term: It's "Sprue plate", not "Spruce plate". I don't know where "Spruce" or "Spur" comes from, must be phonetic from the term being mis-heard or mis-spoken.

Gear

[gunslinger20]

FWIW I w/d some lyman# 2 and to my surprise the next day it tested 29.9. sb4.5 sn4.5 pb 91.0 not sure about the arsinic as it was mixed with WW alloyed with another known alloy.

[fryboy]

gear hit an ingredient that may be missing or in low quantity ( and it doesnt take much ) and is also why i smelt down bags of shot , to be fair the shot does add a lil antimony but the arsenic to me is more important , ww's have some but any alloy that i'm making that will be hardened ( be it mold dropped into the bucket or oven treated ) for every 10 # of pure i add i like to make sure that at least one of those pounds is lead shot , the lasc pages has some good reading on heat treating and various alloys btw

[btroj]

I too add shot when I want to get more hardness from water dropping. I don't add lots but I like some in the pot.

[white eagle]

I found the same as Gunslinger
exact reading

[ColColt]

Ok, there is some some information that has yet to be given. Colcolt, first you need to understand that your alloy probably has little to no arsenic in it, and arsenic is a catalyst for hardening, especially so when water-quenching or heat treating. Basically arsenic (found in wheel weights and shotgun shot) will make your boolits reach their hardness more quickly. Lino/pure will take much longer to age than WW/pure, even though the first will have much more antimony and tin and will ultimately be harder.


I was surprised that the hardness went from 15.4 to 18.6 just by dropping them into water. I doubt I'll need anything harder than this. I only have about 6-8 pounds of ww's but a lot of 50/50 lead to LT that I poured years ago and thought I'd use that up first. Sometimes I alloy that with pure lead to get a BHN11-12. I have about 50 pounds of LT I got from a printer decades ago and will probably use that in the future as well. I checked the hardness of those ingots and they were right at BHN15.2-15.5 and those were poured at least 25 years ago.

Jackwagon? Now, where have I heard that before.:) Spruce is what I've always called it and can't begin to supply an answer as to where I saw it called as such. Maybe one of the gun rags from long ago...hard to say. It's sort of like swag and swage. I've seen that both ways.


FWIW I w/d some lyman# 2 and to my surprise the next day it tested 29.9. sb4.5 sn4.5 pb 91.0 not sure about the arsinic as it was mixed with WW alloyed with another known alloy.

I never would have thought that alloy would have jumped that much. No. 2 is suppose to be BHN15. I've mixed an equivalent of #2 and it never jumped like that but again, it was a mix of lead and 50/50(lead to LT). From what geargnasher just pointed out, there must have been a healthy does of arsenic in that mix.

[white eagle]

lead and lino is hardball which is rite around 16 bhn to start
depending on the exact percentages