Mono vs linotype

[btroj]

I understand the principle that Linotype is "lines of type" and monotype is individual letters.
My question is this- if I buy scrap and it is all comprised of individual letters is it always monotype? Is there a chance this could be Linotype?

Having no background in the print industry at all I don't know for sure.

Brad

[bumpo628]

That is my understanding. Individual letters = mono.

[buck1]

Or it could be foundry type also.

[btroj]

How do you know if it is foundry type?

[bumpo628]

I don't know how you would tell them apart, but here are the specs:
Description------Tin %------Antimony %----Lead %
Monotype-------9.00%-----19.00%---------72.00%
Foundry type---15.00%----23.00%---------62.00%

Unless the print shop you get it from tells you that it is actually foundry type, then I would just treat it as monotype. Unless someone can point out the difference.

I remember something about the shape of the notches on the blocks. Like if it is v-shaped then it is mono and if it is a channel then it is foundry. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

EDIT: I just check my monotype and it doesn't have any notches. :confused:

[1911GrayWolf]

My information gathering on foundry type gave me the following:
18% Tin/ 28% Antimony/ 54% Lead. All individual letters and punctuation.

Used by book publishers. Required more tin and antimony for longer wear and crisp edges because of the rougher paper stock used. Half round notch on front of type block.
This information is based on phone calls made to M&H Type of San Francisco, one of the few manufacturers of lead based type still in operation. No guarantee on this information, I'm going by what I was told.

[btroj]

Based upon this info it appears i may have foundry type instead. the info on book publishing makes sense as some of the larger blocks have relatively ornate letters upon them.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16434de13b421c4b2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=996)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16434de13b4206140.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=995)

All I can say is that no matter what it is it will be great for sweetening some pure lead or range scrap. Got a great deal at 55 cents a pound.

[1911GrayWolf]

Linotype information is pretty straight forward, lines of type made over and over with the alloy having to be "sweetened" once in a while. Side by side picture comparisons between monotype and foundry type by an old timer print master would certainly clear up a lot of the info floating around on this forum. I haven't come across something like that here, but if it's been done maybe we need a refresher.

All my printing expertise is with rubber/polymer based print plates in flexographic, gravure, and also some rotary screen printing. I know the processes but not the tools from way back in the lead type days.

[btroj]

I cast a few 425 RD bullets with this stuff tonite. It has a weird foamy looking dross at first. Took lots of sawdust to get it into solution. Clogged the spot once too, makes me wonder if there is a bit of copper in it?
Cast of the type metal the bullets went an average of 373.1gr. Cast from roofing lead, pure as I have, the same went 463.3 gr. My math tells me that this gives me a density of 9.13 g/cm3. I calculated that I should get around 9.6 for foundry type and 10.09 for monotype. Even if you figure for some error this stuff is closer to foundry type than anything.
I dropped the bullets right into a cast iron fry pan. Talk about hard! These suckers had a definitely clink when dropped.

I plan on using maybe a pound in 19 pounds of pure or range scrap and ought to get pretty decent handgun alloy.

[1911GrayWolf]

btroj, bumpo628, buck1

Looks and sounds like the evidence for what foundry type is might be getting a little clearer. I hope we're not repeating old news.

[ColColt]

It seems I've read monotype is much harder than Linotype...maybe BHN26 or so?

[Fritz D]

My question is this- if I buy scrap and it is all comprised of individual letters is it always monotype? Is there a chance this could be Linotype?

I owned/operated a Linotype for about 15 years . . . there is no chance that what you have is Linotype. Lino is always in the form of a single "line-of-type," approximately 5" in length (but sometimes trimmed shorter). I still have several cases of Foundry type, which looks like the type in your photo. I'm not sure what Monotype looks like.

[ColColt]

I ran an old German Kluge press many moons ago and got a lot of Linotype from that print shop. That was back in the early 70's. Here's part of it I still have.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF3849.jpg

[btroj]

I tested a few of the bullets I cast yesterday for hardness. These were tested less then 24 hours after casting and were air cooled. The 4 I tested all came out at around 25 to 28 bhn. This is a bit softer than I might have expected but I plan to see if the hardness increases over the next week.

Based upon what others have said here it certainly isn't Lino. Whether foundry or mono it is hard as all get out. Can't I agine a bullet cast of this with about 10% shot then heat treated. Wonder how a bhn 35 or so bullet would work?

[Lloyd Smale]

Printing shops reuse linotype. they casting there own letter sets. Individual letters that are monotype were bought by the print shop. They were used over and over so they needed to be harder to hold up. my understanding is that normaly they were cast from monotype because they were used every day just occasionaly. the bigger letters that were used daily were usually bought using even harder alloys like stereotype ect.

[btroj]

So the big blocks may be harder than the rest. That is easy enough to verify, they are very easy to sort out.
I may have to run a hardness test on one of the larger block as is. That will give some indication I hope.

[Fritz D]

I've done a bit of research today . . . based on what I've found, determining whether type is Foundry or Monotype is not easy. I posted this question on a site dedicated to letterpress printing (Briar Press); here are two answers I received (in quotes). Also, check out the following link, it gives a rundown of the significant type metal formulas.

http://letterpressprinting.com.au/page40.htm

"Foundry type has a harder alloy . . . the nick and the foot groove pattern differs from Font to Font and Foundry to Foundry. Monotype has a nick in the same position, the foot is always the same . . . the alloy is softer than foundry."

"The difference (separate from the faces available on Monotype vs foundry) is in the composition of the metal. Typical foundry metal is harder (on the Brinnell scale). Note that Monotype was actually available in three formulas of varying hardness depending on the type of job it was planned for. As to the visual difference, it is hard to tell unless the metal is newly melted and cast as all type oxidizes over time to varying degrees. Because of the higher degree of lead in the softer alloys they appear greyer and less shiny than the foundry metal which is higher in tin and antimony. Generally, when visually inspecting type, foundry type has a groomed foot or a groove on the bottom while Monotype cast type is flat on the bottom."

[badbob454]

great info i have bought all kinds of type.. maybe i can sort it out now

[bandmiller2]

Is their a way to tell by striking a bar of the alloy with a hammer and seeing if it breaks or bends and the structure of the break.A local scrap dealer had a pallet of lead looking ingots when I asked him he took a hammer and knocked off a big piece and gave it to me to try.It cast decent boolits pure, real hard,I mix it with lead or WW to harden them up. Frank C.

[birdadly]

Are spacers generally the same lead as letters/words? This lead I'm looking into is "linotype" is "mostly slugs and spacers with some loose letters mixed in". I haven't seen it yet but thought I'd look here for a general consensus before I make the trip.

I'll keep looking, but if anyone has an answer, it'll be appreciated. I should really get a hardness tester to take with me... I'll look for where to get one of those too... again a quick answer would be fine too! -Thanks, Brad

EDIT: Ha, I better go read about the pencil testing... don't think a hardness tester is anything I can afford to run out and buy :) oops I had no idea.

[Lloyd Smale]

from what i was told most printing shops made there own spacers out of linotype. So it is linotype but it could be older linotype that has lost some of its antimony in lead from be used over and over.

[cajun shooter]

I can't remember if it was Glen Fryxell that wrote the following information or not but there was a paragraph or two that stated for the bullet caster to stay away from foundry type. Maybe it was in the Lyman casting book.

[tmd17]

Waking up an old thread instead of starting a new one.

I will test for hardness later, but for now I thought I would post a pic of my find today.

24 pounds of relatively clean material.

So what do you think? Mono Type or Foundry Type?

310427

[tmd17]

My Lee Hardness Test Kit indicates about 20 BHN, but a 2H pencil will not scratch it!

[6622729]

My Lee Hardness Test Kit indicates about 20 BHN, but a 2H pencil will not scratch it!

I trust the pencils. Remember to scratch the lead with a square edge on your pencil lead. In other words, the lead of the pencil must be ground flat. Hold at 45 degrees to the lead. Work your way up the pencils in hardness until one scratches it. No matter which type of lead you end up having, you have some prime material for alloying soft lead. Congrats!

[Piłsudski]

This is an old thread, but my wondering about the answer isn't. I began to wonder about some stock I bought on eBay and so was thinking about posting a question, but a search turned this thread up. Maybe someone else will find what I found to be helpful:

https://swamppress.com/pdf/Type%20Identifier-new.pdf

As usual, the subject of printing lead alloys is a bit more complex than first meets the eye, and alloy composition is not always the same, even with alloys that go by the same name.

I hope this helps; I now have some sorting to do and math to recalculate.

[jsizemore]

This is an old thread, but my wondering about the answer isn't. I began to wonder about some stock I bought on eBay and so was thinking about posting a question, but a search turned this thread up. Maybe someone else will find what I found to be helpful:

https://swamppress.com/pdf/Type%20Identifier-new.pdf

As usual, the subject of printing lead alloys is a bit more complex than first meets the eye, and alloy composition is not always the same, even with alloys that go by the same name.

I hope this helps; I now have some sorting to do and math to recalculate.

Thanks for that link. More info is more better.