Should I buy Lyman#2 or use wheel weights?

[Fourty5seventy]

Hello
I am new to cast boolits and bullet casting. I have an endless supply of wheel weights because I work as a mechanic and my company has 13 shops. But I don't know if I can use wheel weights for all of my needs. I am going to cast for the .22 hornet the 45/70 and the .243 Winchester. Question is do I use wheel weights or buy some lyman#2 or use WW's for 45/70 and buy Lyman#2 for .22 hornet and .243?

Thanks

[grisy11]

I use WW in 9mm 357 and 44 mag and it works real good.for the rifles do the molds have GC?
If so then WW should work good i would think

[zuke]

I use straight WW for everything, 45 Win Mag and my 45-70's.
I paper patch for the 45-70's, no leading that way!
What ever you don't use you can alway's sell.
Where about's are you located?

[Stick_man]

First off, welcome to the forum. You are very lucky if you have an unlimited supply of wheelweights. They are starting to get pretty scarce around here due to all the environmental liberals. The WWs should do you fine especially if used with a gas check, even for the rifles. Worst case scenario, mix it with a little linotype and it will be plenty hard for the .243 or .45/70. You could probably even just use straight WWs (clip-ons) and water-drop them for higher velocity loads. The stick-on lead weights are generally considered about 99% pure lead and are too soft for rifle loads without mixing with something else to harden them up. A little linotype works wonders with them too.

Good luck, and welcome to the addiction.

[Fourty5seventy]

Thanks guys I will try the WW's and see how it works. I am from the Stratford area Zuke.

[zuke]

A little out of my way to drive to at present, but I do get down to the Orillia area quite often, I lived 20 year's down there.

[Matt_G]

If you haven't read Glen Fryxell's book, From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners yet, you should.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

This chapter will give you plenty of info regarding your question.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

[ColColt]

I've discovered WW's can run from BHN9.2 to about 12 or so. I guess it depends on where you get it geographically. I have some that run that gamut.

[Cowboy T]

First off, welcome to the forum. You are very lucky if you have an unlimited supply of wheelweights. They are starting to get pretty scarce around here due to all the environmental liberals.

I hear ya, brother, but those aren't liberals. They're pinko-Commies who insult the word liberal by their actions. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool San Francisco liberal and I love WW and would certainly not ban 'em.


I've discovered WW's can run from BHN9.2 to about 12 or so. I guess it depends on where you get it geographically. I have some that run that gamut.

Lyman's 49th has a good article on this, with a very instructive example. The book shows a .375-cal GC'd rifle boolit recovered from a hog. It was BHN 12, the typical wheel weight BHN. The boolit mushroomed to about double its size and retained virtually all of its weight. Therefore, I suspect straight WW will be just fine from your .45-70.

If you discover that you need Linotype-style hardness, just water-quench your WW boolits right out of the mould. That'll get 'em to about BHN 18-20, depending. That's good enough for .454 Casull or the original-spec .357 Magnum.

[Defcon-One]

It's been covered above, so short answer. Make what you need!

A little Linotype, a little 50/50 Solder and you can make Clip-on WW lead into just about anything you want.

[cbrick]

Matt_G is correct in post #7, the entire chapter 3 is an answer to your question.

Rick

[cajun shooter]

Most members on this forum have used nothing but WW's for years for all the shooting they do. You are in the position of owning a gold mine and would not find a hard time making new casting friends. After reading all of the material that was posted you should buy the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. The new 4th edition just came out but if you find a 3rd edition at a good price, buy it. The book is a great reference book for your bench. You may want to print out the material by Glen and put it in a folder for the same reason. Welcome to the fun and madness of bullet casting.

[zuke]

So if I need some and I'm down that way can I get a couple pail's full off you? :)

[fredj338]

Endless supply of lead ww, not for long.:target_smiley: SO I would use the ww, water drop for the rifle rounds or trade them off for some lino, mix & run that. The choices are almost endless.

[peerlesscowboy]

Mix those WW's 9 to 1 by weight with 50/50 solder and you'll have #2 alloy.

[cbrick]

Mix those WW's 9 to 1 by weight with 50/50 solder and you'll have #2 alloy.

Lets see, WW is .5% tin - 2% antomony (at best these days) and a trace of Arsenic, the rest lead.

Lyman #2 is 90% lead - 5% antimony - 5% tin.

How is diluting the 2% WW antimony by 9-1 with 50/50 lead/tin solder going to raise the WW antimony to 5%? You would be down to just over 1% antimony, that's hardly Lyman #2.

Rick

[peerlesscowboy]

Lets see, WW is .5% tin - 2% antomony (at best these days) and a trace of Arsenic, the rest lead.

Lyman #2 is 90% lead - 5% antimony - 5% tin.

How is diluting the 2% WW antimony by 9-1 with 50/50 lead/tin solder going to raise the WW antimony to 5%? You would be down to just over 1% antimony, that's hardly Lyman #2.

Rick
9 # WW to 1 # 50/50 solder } 10 # 2 alloy is Lymans own recipe (page #57 Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Edition).
Also from page #57........."Composition & hardness of Common Bullet Metals"
Wheelweights--95.5% lead--0.5% tin--4% antimony--.....

Is Lymans own data wrong :confused:

[cbrick]

9 # WW to 1 # 50/50 solder } 10 # 2 alloy is Lymans own recipe (page #57 Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Edition).

Also from page #57........."Composition & hardness of Common Bullet Metals"

Wheelweights--95.5% lead--0.5% tin--4% antimony--.....

Is Lymans own data wrong :confused:

Oh yes, check the publish date of that book, that info is way, way outdated.

Even if the 4% antimony were correct (and its not) diluting it 50% would not bring the antimony up to 5%, would drop it to 2%.

Rick

[bumpo628]

9 lbs WW (I use 0.5% tin, 3% antimony)
1 lbs 50-50 solder
= 5.45% tin, 2.70% antimony

If you use Lyman's assumption of 4% antimony for WW, you get 3.6% antimony in the final mix.

It's not 5% tin & 5% antimony, but it is certainly very different than the original WW formula.

[cbrick]

I know Glen says in his book that WW is 3% antimony but consider the book may have been published a couple of months ago but he started writing it 10 years ago. I think you would be very fortunate in this day and age to get WW with 3% Sb.

I use 2% Sb as an average for WW but even splitting the difference and saying 2.5% Sb and the Sb percent would still be closer to 2%. Hardly Lyman #2.

Lyman #2 is equal percentages of Sb/Sn for a reason and no amount of diluting a 2% - 3% or even a 4% Sb alloy will bring it up to 5% Sb.

I didn't do the math on this, wasn't any need to but I assume you did and 5.45% Sn, way past twice the Sb percent and probably near 3 times the Sb is not only a huge waste of tin, it is counter productive to the reason for using tin an an Sb alloy.

So to answer peerlesscowboy's question "Is Lyman's own data wrong?"

Yes, it is.

Rick

[peerlesscowboy]

Oh yes, check the publish date of that book, that info is way, way outdated.

Even if the 4% antimony were correct (and its not) diluting it 50% would not bring the antimony up to 5%, would drop it to 2%.

Rick
You're not diluting the antimony 50%, ruff'ly speaking you're diluting it just over 5%. True.....that doesn't bring the antimony content in the alloy up to 5% but assuming Lymans figure of 4% for WW it'd dilute it to just under 4% while bringing the tin content up to just over 5%.
OTOH, dated or recent..........how consistent is the antimony content of lead alloy clip-on wheelweights from (I assume) multiple manufacturers? My guess is, it would vary from lot to lot and between manufacturers.

[cbrick]

OTOH, dated or recent..........how consistent is the antimony content of lead alloy clip-on wheelweights from (I assume) multiple manufacturers? My guess is, it would vary from lot to lot and between manufacturers.

Yes it does and not only between manufacturers but between lot numbers from the same manufacturer. WW is scrap metal, even new weights. There is no formula for making them, even the manufacturers of new weigths use scrap alloy to make them. Point is that no one is adding any more expensive Sb than is needed and they haven't for many years now. That's why I say your lucky if you can get weights with 3% Sb in this day and age.

Rick

[dnotarianni]

. After reading all of the material that was posted you should buy the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. The new 4th edition just came out but if you find a 3rd edition at a good price, buy it.
.

3th edition at Midway for 6.76 on closeout.

Dave

[bumpo628]

3th edition at Midway for 6.76 on closeout.

Dave

Thanks for the heads up - I just bought it.
The only problem is that a $7 order turned into nearly $100. :confused:

[MikeS]

And that also answers a question I had raised in a different thread where I asked about the 2 formulas for Lyman #2. I too assumed if Lyman published it, they must know what they're talking about, after all it IS their alloy, but didn't consider the publishing date. I have a booklet that gives 2 different formulas, and one was the 9lb of WW and 1lb of 50/50. The #2 I mixed up, and use was their other formula (which I can't recall at the moment), but it involved lino/pb/sn, so I'm pretty sure it's the true formula for #2. I know that I've never cast boolits that look as good when using just WW's and tin, as I do now using Lyman #2. But that might also have something to do with more experience, better techniques, etc. all or which were from this forum (well the experience isn't, but sort of is).

[Matt_G]

If we as casters are intent on making our own Lyman #2, and want it done right, we have to start with components of a known composition, right?

So I looked around this morning to see how feasible that is and I see we have several options that would satisfy that requirement, and allow us to make our own true 90-5-5. (Pb-Sb-Sn)

1) Rotometals sells Lyman #2 but it's pretty expensive @ $2.89 a pound. Less for bigger quantities.

2) Buy pure lead, tin and antimony. You can get the antimony from Bill Ferguson. 18 pounds Pb, 1 pound Sb, 1 pound Sn. Pain in the rear to get the antimony to alloy I hear. Probably just as expensive as buying #2 from Rotometals also. Overall, this isn't a very viable solution IMO.

3) Buy pure lead and tin. Add Rotometals super hard. (70% Pb - 30% Sb and $3.99 per pound)
16 lbs. 11 ounces of pure lead + 2 lbs. 5 ounces of super hard + 1 pound of tin.
This might be the cheapest way. Of course it depends on what you can get the tin and pure lead for per pound. You can get pure lead from Rotometals for about 1.55 per pound shipped if you buy a whole pallet. (2500 lbs)
I figured tin @ $13.00 per pound so the cost of this formula would be about $2.41 per pound.

4) Last but not least, instead of insisting on a 90-5-5 mix settle for a 95-2.5-2.5 (note this is still equal parts Sb and Sn) This is real easy and cheap to do. Just put 19.5 to 20 pounds of clip on WW's in the pot and throw in 6-7 ounces of Sn.
This is my choice and yes, I am assuming WW"s have roughly 2.5% Sb in them. (Big assumption I know)

Maybe one of these days I'll do #3. I've never cast with Lyman #2 and would like to try it. My problem is that I am afraid I'll like it and that won't sit well with the cheapskate in me. :mrgreen:

[bumpo628]

If we as casters are intent on making our own Lyman #2, and want it done right, we have to start with components of a known composition, right?

So I looked around this morning to see how feasible that is and I see we have several options that would satisfy that requirement, and allow us to make our own true 90-5-5. (Pb-Sb-Sn)

1) Rotometals sells Lyman #2 but it's pretty expensive @ $2.89 a pound. Less for bigger quantities.

2) Buy pure lead, tin and antimony. You can get the antimony from Bill Ferguson. 18 pounds Pb, 1 pound Sb, 1 pound Sn. Pain in the rear to get the antimony to alloy I hear. Probably just as expensive as buying #2 from Rotometals also. Overall, this isn't a very viable solution IMO.

3) Buy pure lead and tin. Add Rotometals super hard. (70% Pb - 30% Sb and $3.99 per pound)
16 lbs. 11 ounces of pure lead + 2 lbs. 5 ounces of super hard + 1 pound of tin.
This might be the cheapest way. Of course it depends on what you can get the tin and pure lead for per pound. You can get pure lead from Rotometals for about 1.55 per pound shipped if you buy a whole pallet. (2500 lbs)
I figured tin @ $13.00 per pound so the cost of this formula would be about $2.41 per pound.

4) Last but not least, instead of insisting on a 90-5-5 mix settle for a 95-2.5-2.5 (note this is still equal parts Sb and Sn) This is real easy and cheap to do. Just put 19.5 to 20 pounds of clip on WW's in the pot and throw in 6-7 ounces of Sn.
This is my choice and yes, I am assuming WW"s have roughly 2.5% Sb in them. (Big assumption I know)

Maybe one of these days I'll do #3. I've never cast with Lyman #2 and would like to try it. My problem is that I am afraid I'll like it and that won't sit well with the cheapskate in me. :mrgreen:

Another way to do it would be to add tin or solder to some lead shot.
Magnum shot has between 4 and 6% antimony. If you add either 1/2 lb of tin or 1 lb of 50/50 solder to 10 lbs of magnum shot, then you'll have an alloy very close to Lyman #2.

[GLL]

I bought my 90/5/5 directly from the foundry via Blammer's Group Buy @ $2.00 per pound shipped.

He tried another Group Buy recently but there was not enough interest from Forum members ! ??? :(

Jerry

[peerlesscowboy]

FWIW, there's no magical qualities to "Lyman #2".........it doesn't nessesarily have to be the exact percentage of ingedients as long as you're consisent. It's basically lead with a little antimony and tin added to make the bullets harder and fill the sharp corners of the mould cavities better.

John C. Saubak

[MikeS]

There's a very simple way to make Lyman #2 that can be done fairly easily without buying expensive special alloys. Using pure lead (which can be found being sold by several forum members, myself included), 50/50 solder, and Linotype (also being sold by several forum members). To make 10lbs you start with 5lbs of pure lead, then add 4lbs of linotype, and a single pound of 50/50 solder, heat until well mixed, flux, mix, flux again, pour into ingots, and you're good to go. That's the formula as published by Lyman. I've upscaled it for my own use, I start with a 26lb brick of lead (the one's I sell), then add 20lbs of Stereotype, and 2lbs of tin based solder (the solder I'm using also has some copper, and some silver in it, I forget the exact percentages, but it's mostly tin)

Using that alloy which is fairly close to #2 I've cast some really nice looking boolits, and using the fairly crude pencil method of testing hardness it comes out to being the same as #2 should be. I just bought a hardness tester that I should have later in the week, so I'll find out what my alloy really is in hardness.

[michiganvet]

The lead tin antimony ratio in Lyman #2 is by volume and not by weight so you have to consider specific gravities of all three metals

[Matt_G]

The lead tin antimony ratio in Lyman #2 is by volume and not by weight so you have to consider specific gravities of all three metals

Could you cite your source for that info please?
Thanks.

[cbrick]

The lead tin antimony ratio in Lyman #2 is by volume and not by weight so you have to consider specific gravities of all three metals


Could you cite your source for that info please? Thanks.

Yes, I also would like to know the source of that info.

Rick

[bumpo628]

The lead tin antimony ratio in Lyman #2 is by volume and not by weight so you have to consider specific gravities of all three metals

Not according to the LASC:
http://www.lasc.us/brennan_saeco_table.htm

"1 part tin plus 19 parts lead (by weight) equals a 1 in 20 alloy"


NOTE: Sorry for posting the same thing in more than one thread, but I just want to clear this issue up before it gets repeated.

[canyon-ghost]

Well, now, look at all those complicated answers! Use the wheelweight, if you suspect it's too soft, water quench the bullets in a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. It makes them very hard (more than you'd think possible). Lyman #2 is so close to wheelweight it would be a waste of money. I have both, use the wheelweight. I'm not telling you to do something I won't.

You can always buy Lyman #2 later to try. Right now, use your ww, set up and cast. Make some bullets and go have some fun and experiment a little- that's what it's all about. I don't need an alloy analyser to tell me how much gunpowder it takes, those are things you figure out.

Go Shooting,
Ron

[MikeS]

... I start with a 26lb brick of lead (the one's I sell), then add 20lbs of Stereotype, and 2lbs of tin based solder (the solder I'm using also has some copper, and some silver in it, I forget the exact percentages, but it's mostly tin)

Using that alloy which is fairly close to #2 I've cast some really nice looking boolits, and using the fairly crude pencil method of testing hardness it comes out to being the same as #2 should be. I just bought a hardness tester that I should have later in the week, so I'll find out what my alloy really is in hardness.

I know it's tacky quoting yourself, but I just wanted to add an update. I now have a Saeco lead hardness tester, and testing some boolits I cast with the alloy I mixed up tests to right about 8.5 on the Saeco scale which is 15BHN which is what Lyman #2 is supposed to be, so it's close enough for me.

Remember that we're casting boolits, not precision instruments, so if the alloy isn't exactly right, it's not that important. None of the testers any of us are using (unless you have a lab grade tester) are not really that accurite anyway, nor do they need to be.

[duck hollow pete]

Get posts on #2. Now all my lyman and or ideal books use parts for their recipes.

[duck hollow pete]

The two recipes from old ideal and lyman 50's books are 9 parts ww one part 50/50, for a mix of 90-5-5 the other is 10 parts ww and 1 part tin and 1 part ant. Obviously they are two different formulas. What makes this even more confusing is they start saying ww are 9% SB. I think we all agree on the 90% 5% 5% as a true Lyman No. 2. This should give us a 15 bhn for a nice rifle boolit up to maybe 2200 fps.

[cbrick]

40 years ago WW had far more Sb than today. Using todays weights wouldn't get you anywhere near Lyman #2. Using the very much outdated Lyman formula of 9 WW to 1 Sn would be a very Sn rich alloy lacking in Sb.

Todays weights should average much closer to 2% Sb and learning a lesson from the metals industry the Sn shouldn't be a higher than percentage than the Sb.

Rick

[duck hollow pete]

Yes that's correct it's what I meant in my post.At 9% with 9ww and 1 50-50 you end up with 8.1 & 5% on that mix, with the 10-1-1 it's 12% sb,sn a might hard. As far as ww go there was a post stating two different co. one at 2% the other at 4% hence 3% ave. you say they use scrap it's more like 2% I'll take both as being correct. I get my ww at work some truck others car if I give them a squeeze it's easy to tell the difference. I get very few soft ones, at least so far, I mix 1 part tin babbitt to 15 parts ww and 1 part old alloy that was 20bhn and get a good 15-16 bhn, cast my 311299 at the right weight.

[duck hollow pete]

correction I just looked at what I said The 10-1-1 formula is 83.3-8.3-8.3 still a good bit harder than the current 90-5-5

[duck hollow pete]

As I stated before great posts on lyman no. 2 and ww makeup. This is the first time that I heard they where making ww out of scrap. Cbrick did you talk to them directly? This surely makes this a **** shoot. I'm from s.w. pa. don't know if that makes any difference,but when I give them a squeeze with my dikes it's easy to see the difference, I get very few soft ones. That's car weights, the truck ww I pry off as we use a vendor for those some bend some break, but they all ring if you drop them on the floor.

[cbrick]

Duck, there is nothing about a wheel weight that requires a mfg to hold the line on any specific alloy and scrap alloy that they can get is far cheaper than buying new alloy.

Not only WW but when you buy a new battery for your car the lead plates in your new battery have a fair amount of used WW alloy in them. Its been several years since I have been able to get any weights from a tire shop that sells Interstate Batteries. Why? Because Interstate contracts with the tire dealers to get all of their used weights. Interstate doesn't make new WW, they make batteries so where do you suppose all those used WW are going?

Rick

[duck hollow pete]

Thanks for the reply cbrick, lots of very good info on MODERN DAY WW Now I am depressed. Guess I'll gather all I can and hope for the best.

[zuke]

That's why I do my melt's in a big pot,pour 10-12 ingot's and then toss in more WW.
Try to even out the variance's.

[ColColt]

If you're fortunate enough to have culled a lot of Linotype years ago as I did, a simple mix of 50/50 lead-LT will give you Lyman #2. Unfortunately, the availability of Linotype from printers has gone done to nearly zero and the only places you can find it now(for the most part) is ebay, RotoMetals or at times here in a group buy. It's no longer the $.15-.25 per pound it once was. I only have about 40 ingots of 50/50 left plus about 40# of pure printers LT. When that's gone-I don't know.

[MikeS]

I have a question regarding wheel weights. I've heard that WW manufacturers will use whatever scrap lead they can get ahold of. In one regard this makes no sense. We know from our experience casting boolits, if you change the alloy composition you change the weight, and considering they're being old AS weights, with their weight cast right into them, wouldn't the WW companies want to stick to a particular alloy? I'm not saying that 3 different WW companies can't be using 3 different alloys, they very well might be, but I would think an individual company would want to keep their alloy pretty consistant, otherwise their weights wouldn't weigh what they say they do. Or is the amount it varies so small as to not matter?

[cbrick]

WW are weighed in at best 1/4 or 1/2 ounce. Bullets are weighed in grains. A bit of a change in alloy that we might notice in a 180 grain bullet wouldn't show up in say a 2 ounce WW.

Rick

[Canuck Bob]

WW are weighed in at best 1/4 or 1/2 ounce. Bullets are weighed in grains. A bit of a change in alloy that we might notice in a 180 grain bullet wouldn't show up in say a 2 ounce WW.

Rick

I agree it is was common years ago when fine tuning a wheel balance to use a few of weights from the same bucket and try them. Even then a little snip would helpful on occasion.