Trapdoor Carbine Loads

[Kraschenbirn]

‘Lo, guys…

Been away for a few days…major computer glitch. (DO NOT EVER try installing a Norton/Symantec upgrade without uninstalling every last scrap of the earlier version from your hard drive…believe me!!)

Okay…I think I’ve read about everything on the ‘Cast Boolits forums about boolits/loads for the 45-70 and I already had a pretty fair library before I started…Ken Watters, E.H. Harrison/NRA “Cast Bullets”, Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (2 different editions), etc. Also, as I mentioned back when I introduced myself to the group, I started casting for handguns a long, long time ago but, outside of a little work with muzzle-loaders, have never worked with long guns.

I’ve always had an itch to try black powder cartridge shooting…not silhouette competition, just shooting for my own satisfaction and recently acquired a reproduction Trapdoor Carbine (H&R). My first work-ups of loads would seem to indicate that I’m heading in the right direction, but I’m still open to suggestions.

The last loads I tested were (1) 55 gr. of Pyrodex RS behind the classic 405 gr RNFP (Lee mould) with an Alox-lubed .30” over-powder wad and (2) 55 gr. Pyrodex RS behind a gas-checked. RCBS flat-point…this boolit is supposed to be another 405-grainer but mould throws 428 (lubed w/GC) from the ‘hard-cast’ alloy I use for handgun. Both chronograph right at 1300 fps from my carbine and shot clover-leafed (1"x 1 1/2") 5-round groups at 50 yds. Fired the 428 GCs at 100 yds and got about 3 ½” lateral dispersion with less than 1” vertical. A recommended smokeless “starting load” for the Trapdoor using AA2015 yielded around 1200 fps and 3”-3 ½” 100-yard groups. All test firing was off sandbags and using H&R’s non-replica buckhorn rear sight. (I’m working on ‘restoring’ an original 1884 carbine sight that’s almost ready to reblue and install.)

Now, here come the questions:

1) Is what I’m getting about par for a 22” Trapdoor Carbine or should I be able to substantially improve on what I'm getting?

2) I’m shooting a relatively hard alloy very similar to Lyman #2; would backing off to 25-1 or 30-1 possibly improve the accuracy?

3) To this point, I’ve been shooting the 405 and 428 grainers; will the carbine's 1-in-20 rifling handle something like Lee's 459-500-3R Postell-style for longer range work?

4) Last item: I’m burning Pyrodex RS because it was what I happened to have on hand; should I expect to any substantial gain from going to a good quality blackpowder?

I’m also helping a buddy work up loads for his original 11mm Danish RB (60-70% factory finish and all matching #s, including bayonet) so any help will be doubly appreciated.

Bill

[WBH]

I use 58 grains of swiss under my 405 Lee with a .060 King wad. If you want to try smokeless take a look at 5744. I think your load would be about 28 grains, but check me out on that. I get 1.5x1.5 at 100 with my original RB with a 30" barrel. Your groups are not too shabby with that carbine. Definately use a softer alloy, such as 20:1. At those low velocities and bullet weight you need to obturate the base easier than a harder lead. NO gas checks.

[PatMarlin]

-subscribe-

[WBH]

Huh ?

[Buckshot]

..............I have an H&R carbine also. I don't use BP in it though. Mine has proven exceedingly accurate with most ANY correct TD load. I have tended to keep it on the light side so far as loads go (recoil wise). I like the RCBS 300 gr and the 350gr group buy slug over 23.0grs of SR4759 or any 405 gr over 26.0 4198. Both use a dacron filler.

.................Buckshot

[Guido4198]

Get rid of the gascheck, get a softer alloy...NO harder than 20:1...my best results have been w/ 30:1. Then...if you want to get serious pick up a copy of Loading Cartridges For The Original Springfield Rifle And Carbine by J.S. and Pat Wolf.
Cheers,
Don

[Boz330]

With that short barrel and buckhorn sights there is nothing wrong with those groups. I have never had that kind of luck with Pyrodex. As far as the 500gr bullets, with that twist you should be fine, but I doubt that you will like the recoil. The Army went to the 405gr just for the carbine and a lighter load of powder, (55gr)
I typically shoot for 2 minutes of angle with good tang sights and you should be able to get that with a good BP (read Swiss). That is about all I can expect out of my eyes, but that is also at 300 yards since I shoot BPCRS. That rifle might already be D&T for a tang sight, you might consider that for serious work, although you are doing pretty good with the barrel sights.


Bob

[SharpsShooter]

Softer alloy blends allow the slug to bump up to bore diameter at the pressures of black powder. Get rid of the Pyrodex. It typically produces hard dry fouling and large extreme spreads in velocity, resulting inpoor accuracy. Go with Swiss, Goex Express or Cartridge Grade for Black Powder. A good load with the 405gr weight class is 60gr of Black, compressed just enough to seat a .030 veggie wad and .030 card wad between the charge and the boolits base. If you have to crimp, use only what is required and no more. It is also very important to use the correct lube. Smokeless lubes and the Holy Black do not mix well.


SS

[Boz330]

Andy, I think Pat meant that he goes along with what you said.
Pat, I think I would rather hug a member of the opposite sex[smilie=1:

Bob

[PatMarlin]

Subscribe means just that. I'm subscribing to this thread so I get email notices on the info being posted here.

Now if I had some info to contribute, and I don't cause I'm a newly proud owner of my first TrapDoor Springfield, I would ad to the info here, but instead I'm just a bystander.

:drinks: :drinks: :drinks:

[13Echo]

I agree with lose the Pyrodex and use black. 55 to 59 gr of FFg with the 405 gr Lee bullet will give you a carbine load. I would also agree with a softer alloy. I use 30:1 in my original Trapdoors. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the lube. Allox will not work well with BP or Pyrodex for more than a few shots and may lead to a really hard, gummy mess to clean up. Use a good, soft, black powder lube. Wolf recommended half and half beeswax and olive oil. I use beeswax, peanut oil and anhydrous lanolin (6:4:2) with good results. Emmert's with a bit of added lanolin is used by a friend in his Springfields with good results.

Jerry Liles

[carpetman]

Pat Marlin--I can see you not getting involved as you are a new owner. Sure wouldn't want to get a newbie involved. BTW did you buy that new gun with Paypal?

[montana_charlie]

Fired the 428 GCs at 100 yds and got about 3 ½” lateral dispersion with less than 1” vertical.
If that was my group, my notes for that session would say something like 'small vertical dispersion - probably a consistent loading'. Then I would assume the width of the group was due to (either) wind or sighting error.

So personally, I would be encouraged with your results...with the following caveats:

You didn't say how many rounds you fired into that group, so it's hard to guess if the performance will stay constant...or if the barrel will foul out.

You also didn't say how the lighter bullet performed at 100 yards. The difference (if any) might indicate which way to go for the bullet weight your rifle likes best.

Now, here come the questions:

1) Is what I’m getting about par for a 22” Trapdoor Carbine or should I be able to substantially improve on what I'm getting?
If your goal is reasonable accuracy with a minimum of hassle, you have achieved it. Just getting more comfortable with the gun might reduce the group width to what you call 'substantial improvement'.

2) I’m shooting a relatively hard alloy very similar to Lyman #2; would backing off to 25-1 or 30-1 possibly improve the accuracy?
I would work for the best that can be accomplished with what you are using now...before changing something.

3) To this point, I’ve been shooting the 405 and 428 grainers; will the carbine's 1-in-20 rifling handle something like Lee's 459-500-3R Postell-style for longer range work?
Maybe. It's my feeling (with nothing to back it up) that shape needs a faster spin than the round nosed 500 grainer.

4) Last item: I’m burning Pyrodex RS because it was what I happened to have on hand; should I expect to any substantial gain from going to a good quality blackpowder?
Others who (I assume) have experience with both powders have responded. Having never tried Pyrodex, I can't say.

I’m also helping a buddy work up loads for his original 11mm Danish RB (60-70% factory finish and all matching #s, including bayonet) so any help will be doubly appreciated.
Just be certain that all of the bullets fired through it also have matching #s...

Bill
CM

[PatMarlin]

Pat Marlin--I can see you not getting involved as you are a new owner. Sure wouldn't want to get a newbie involved. BTW did you buy that new gun with Paypal?

Tisactly.

There is NOTHING worse than a lurker that uses PayPal.. :mrgreen:

[Larry Gibson]

I've an H&R LBH carbine I've shot extensively. I've put a M1879 type III rear sight on it and replaced the breech block with an original (mine kept popping open regardless of the "fix"). You have a modern multi groove .458-.459" barrel with a 1-22" twist. Loading for your H&R should follow more modern technique and a lot of Wolfe's technique for loading for original TDs does not apply. However, the H&R is still a TD and pressures must remain in that realm. I suggest;

Keep the same alloy as it is working for you. If you are sizing .459" you don't need any "bumping up". You can go to a soft 1-30 alloy for hunting at those velocities with the GC bullet and get excellent accuracy expansion in deer/elk.

Keep the GC bullet. I consistantly get better accuracy with GC bullets in the H&R carbine and Officer's Model trapdoors when using both smokeles and BP. That is with rifle loads such as you are using. If you drop back to true TD carbine loads of 1150 fps or less then the PB bullets do as well. Go with a BP lube if the fouling gets hard. Commercial BP lubes work fine or you can make your own with beeswax and olive oil.

I had fairly good results with Pyrodex but switched to either smokeless loads or duplex loads as accuracy was more consistant with them. I use Unique with 400-410 gr bullets for a carbine load and 4759, 5744 or 4895 powders for rifle loads. I use a dacron filler with 4895. I use GOEX Cartridge powder over 4759 for both carbine and rifle BP duplication loads. I can post my loads if you are interested. I have shot over 100 of the duplex (GOEX/4759) loads in a day without cleaning and the last shots group as well as the first shots.

Larry Gibson

[hydraulic]

Here's a heads-up on those H&R trapdoors, guys. The original Springfield thumb-piece was pressed on and H&R secures theirs with, (now I'm trying to remember, been quite awhile) a screw, if I have it right. Take a look at yours and see if I'm right. Anyway, I know of two different instances where the screw came loose and the breech block flew open when fired. Doc Carlson, black powder editor of Gun Digest, had this happen and he said the empty came flying back and just missed him. He is proprietor of the Upper Missouri Trading Co. in Crofton, Nebraska, and has figured out a fix for this, don't remember just what it is. Anyone else have anything to add on this subject?

[joeb33050]

This is about your question regarding accuracy with the 45/70.
My procedure is to shoot foulers/sighters and two five-shot groups in a 15 minute relay at 100 yards. I need 3-4 foulers at the beginning, then 1 fouler brfore the record shots. I like five groups per test.
I'm shooting a C. Sharps rifle, heavy barrel and 30X Lyman STS. I can shoot almost as well with vernier aperture sights, but for testing prefer the scope.
Yesterday with an Ohaus 437 grain bullet and SR4759, I shot 6 groups (the bullets came out that way) of 2.2", 2.35", 2.17", 2.1", 1.75" and 1.7"; average of 2.04" This in some pretty fierce wind. Last week, four groups averaged 2.15".
I have shot groups as small as .693" with this rifle, but I believe that if a person can average 2" or under for five 5-shot groups with a 45/70 and heavier bullets, that that is very good accuracy. The gun just beats me to pieces on the bench.
I also believe that anyone over 40 who can shoot any-ANY-rifle with open sights into 3" average for five, 5-shot groups at 100 yards is either lucky or gifted.
We used to occasionally shoot 4" 5 and even 10 shot 200 yard groups with the Buffington sights on trap doors, but that was with 457191 at 300 grains and when I was in my 20s. Now the Buffington is just too far away. Or maybe I am.
Anyhow, I think your groups are good, and suggest that you shoot more groups at each load, 5 groups would be good-I think.
Good luck;
joe brennan

[Dandy2fingers]

Coming from a black powder gun association does have some value....

The H&R trapdoor carbine's that memebers of the club use seem to have gone to either the 330g Gould HP or the 405g HP Lyman use to make...

As with the posts earlier, BLACK at 58 g's (either Swiss, Wano or Goex. Notice the order) seem to produce very reliable groups at 100.... Groups of about 2" or less are the standard off a bench and it seems that the Officer's model shoots a little better than the carbines (that's pruely ancedotal of the 6 memebers that shoot these rifles.) I shoot against these guys all of the time at 100 & 200 yds...

I use an 1884 standard issue with an R&R cast, 20:1, , 523g Steve Brooks with 65g of Rifle Cartridge Black (Goex) or the 500g Governement round Nose with 63g's.... No wads this rifle likes. I get 2" accuracy at 100 and 4" accuracy at 200....

We hunt buffalo out here every year and I'm a real hollow point (Lead only) fan...

You're doing well.

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere

D2F

[Larry Gibson]

Here's a heads-up on those H&R trapdoors, guys. The original Springfield thumb-piece was pressed on and H&R secures theirs with, (now I'm trying to remember, been quite awhile) a screw, if I have it right. Take a look at yours and see if I'm right. Anyway, I know of two different instances where the screw came loose and the breech block flew open when fired. Doc Carlson, black powder editor of Gun Digest, had this happen and he said the empty came flying back and just missed him. He is proprietor of the Upper Missouri Trading Co. in Crofton, Nebraska, and has figured out a fix for this, don't remember just what it is. Anyone else have anything to add on this subject?

I guess I've quite a bit of 1st hand experience as both my H&R LBH carbine and my Officer's Model had the pop open problem and I've worked on a couple others with the problem. I've also conversed with several others on other forums regards this problem. One individual who supposidy was in the know gave a pretty good explanation as to how and why H&R changed the geometry (not referring to the method of construction) of the cam lock. Apparrently the change was only on a later small run of the H&R TDs. At any rate I went through several recommended modifications of the cam lock and set screw but none worked on either the LBH or the OM for very long. I ended up replacing both breech blocks with originals (takes a little fitting but is not difficult). I've not had a single problem with either since and I've shot both quite a bit.

BTW; The case on ejection when the BB is flipped opened while the rifle is at the shoulder is supposed to "come flying back and barely miss you". Not only does the ejector flip the case up but the rear of the receiver would prevent the case from flying back in your face. As I'said I've had numerous (lot's actually) pop opens of the BB while firing these TDs and even expeimented (with m1873 service level smokeless loads) to see how much the H&R cam might need to be engaged. I found even with NO cam engagement the BB would pop open and slam back down on the case that was still in the action. I never got an ejection on a pop open as the case had backed about 1/3 out and the expansion of the case onto the chamber walls prevented it from blowing out. As the case backed out as the BB opened the ejector when activated no longer had the rim to push on so it had no effect.

Again; my final solution was to replace the BBs with originals.

Larry Gibson

[floodgate]

Yes, the originals were pressed onto a square shank and rivetted over; no way they could come loose. I had an early H&R "Officer's Model" and shot it a bit before trading it off - before the problem was aired in the press - but it always functioned OK. You know, the TD has a ejector in addition to the cammed over-center extractor; it is that little angled stud 2/3 of the way back in the receiver trough. The flip-over extractor is SUPPOSED to shoot the case back with enough force to bounce off the stud and fly back over the shooter's head. It always worked well for me with the numerous original TD's I USED (*sob*) to own, so long as I used decent ammunition; the old copper-cased FA 405's I used to get for cheap from Bannerman's, though, were grossly unreliable, and I learned to understand the problems the 7th Cav. troopers had to face.

floodgate

[Kraschenbirn]

Thanks a lot, guys, for all the information. While I’m not disappointed with the performance of my H&R TD Carbine, I’ve got the feeling that, with better sights and properly assembled ammunition, it’s capable of, maybe, just a little bit better. After reading all the posts to this thread, it looks like I need to: 1) Cast some 405 gr. RNFPS from 25-1 alloy. 2) Switch from the Alox lube to something more compatible with black. 3) Get some good quality black and relegate the Pyrodex back to “cowboy loads” for my sixguns…which is the reason I had it on hand to begin with.

I’ve been sizing everything to .459” and, since my original post, I’ve slugged the bore and found it runs just an RCH over .458 so I should be okay there. The last batch of hard-alloy 405 gr. RNFPs dropped out of the mold right at .460 so, if the 25-1 alloy casts the same, I’ll try some of those unsized, too.

Except for switching to a black-compatible lube. I think I’ll leave the gas-checked RCBS bullet “as-is.” From the work I’ve done to date, I suspect, if I’m doing my part, this bullet at 1250-1300 fps will consistently group into 2” @ 100 yds (iron sights). May, also spend some time tinkering up a smokeless load for this bullet, too. (Btw...I tried a few rounds from a box of factory-load 350 gr. JHPs that the seller threw in with the gun and barely kept 5 shots on a 6" sighter at 50 yds.)

Also, thanks for the “heads-up” on the thumb latch assembly. Checked mine as soon as I read the posts and, sure ‘nuff, the set screw was loose and partially backed out. Removed the screw, cleaned the threads and reset it with a touch of blue Loc-Tite. Will keep an eye on this and, if it loosens again, replace the factory screw with a “self-locking” type.

Oh yeah, for Montana Charlie, the described 3 ½”x1” group was 5 shots and I was running a couple of wet patches through the bore every 10-12 rounds to minimize fouling build-up.

Plan to put together another batch of loads within the next couple of weeks and will post the results…good or not-so-good, whichever the case may be.

Bill

[MT Chambers]

An important part of my reloading for BP is using a 4' drop tube to charge cases, settles powder consistantly and the only way to get as much in the case as I do. That, 30-1 alloy, good BP Lube, and a blowtube all contribute to any success I've had. Loads assembled this way(drop tubed) even have a diff. sound to them.

[Trailrider SASS #896]

Here's a heads-up on those H&R trapdoors, guys. The original Springfield thumb-piece was pressed on and H&R secures theirs with, (now I'm trying to remember, been quite awhile) a screw, if I have it right. Take a look at yours and see if I'm right. Anyway, I know of two different instances where the screw came loose and the breech block flew open when fired. Doc Carlson, black powder editor of Gun Digest, had this happen and he said the empty came flying back and just missed him. He is proprietor of the Upper Missouri Trading Co. in Crofton, Nebraska, and has figured out a fix for this, don't remember just what it is. Anyone else have anything to add on this subject?

Hello, the campfire!

Just rode in to this camp! I am NO EXPERT, but have examined the construction of the breechblock on the H&R Officer's Model rifle I JUST ACQUIRED. Here's some more details on the differences between the original breechblocks and the H&R, and after I state them, I need some help, please:

The H&R Officer's Model Trapdoor breechblock has the locking cam connected to the thumbpiece shaft by the little Allen-head screw, as mentioned. In order to assemble the breechblock, the shaft connected to the thumbpiece is inserted into the pivot hole and through the locking cam. Then the setscrew is tightened to keep the thumbpiece, camshaft and the cam aligned and supposedly to prevent the cam from rotating and unlocking except when the thumbpiece is lifted. As a former rocket engineer, the flaw in this design is evident! If the setscrew isn't tight OR if it shears, there is nothing to keep the cam from rotating on the shaft and unlocking the breechblock!

The ORIGINAL Trapdoor blocks have the cam and thumbpiece pressed on the camshaft with a square hole and shaft, so they can't "unlock". In order to assemble or disassemble the cam/shaft/thumbpiece from the block, you remove a screw that goes through a small PLATE that is mounted on the cam assembly before the cam/shaft/TP is assembled. The plate fits into a milled out cut in the right side of the block at the rear. The H&R blocks DO NOT HAVE THE PLATE CUTOUT nor the threaded screw hole for the retaining screw. This is a much better design, as the thumbpiece is held down by the hammer on firing.

My problem is, I would like to replace the breechblock, but am wondering if the Pedersoli blocks have the older, original design, and if so, can they be obtained, and from where? I understand D. Pedersoli took over the manufacture of the H&R rifles, and changed the design of the cam assembly, but don't know how to reach them to find out. Apparently, one can POSSIBLY replace the H&R blocks with an original, with proper fitting, etc. But where does one find spare blocks?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

Your obedient servant,
Trailrider, SASS #896
Bvt. Major, Ordnance,
Dept. of the Platte,
Grand Army of the Frontier