Finding primer holes in the target

[buck1]

I have been shooting my .44 from .40 swaged boolits for quite some time now and have been 100% happy and still am.
But I have recently began finding what looks like .22 ish cal holes in my target.
These are virgin targets shot only with the .44 mag.
The only reason I can come up with is the primers are leaving the .40 brass at some point. The boolits are shootong groups that would make anyone proud.
Has anyone else ran in to this? Any Ideas? Thanks guys....Buck

[BT Sniper]

Yep it happens some times. A few of us have noticed the primmer projectiles while shooting the 40s from 9mm but this is the first I have heard of it with the 44s from 40s. It was the opinion of those and myself that no harm could come of this. Myself and anouther shooter here shooting teh 40s in comp get a pretty good laugh when the extra hole shows up in our targets and the others don't know what to make of it.

On a side note I did take out the screan of my crony with the 3 grain primmer while testing the 40cal bullets from 9mm. I had to laugh :)

I say good shooting and swage on with confidence!

BT

[buck1]

Thanks buddy! I wasnt too worried but wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something....Buck

[sargenv]

I tried to argue a better hit but really could not since dual projectile loads are prohibited ;)

[BT Sniper]

I have only had two primmer hits that I know of, one was in a IDPA shoot and that was the best, looking at the confused faces of the score keepers. Sarge there was the other one I was thinking about. Have you noticed very many of these primmers sarge?

BT

[waksupi]

This is a new one on me. Primers hitting the target? Do you mean they are blowing through the primer pocket? The primers are missing from the brass? How can this happen? If it was, I would sure get rid of that particular firearm and chambering!

[felix]

As I see it, Ric, the depriming operation allows primers to fly off into a bucket with cases on the floor, never to be found again. They appear on the target as projectiles. Using auto loading machines from the start of resizing to the final round will definitely keep the primers out of sight. ... felix

[Bill*]

He means they're coming free from the swaged boolit case (not the cartridge) I think

[BT Sniper]

He means they're coming free from the swaged boolit case (not the cartridge) I think

Yep! Our swaged bullets made from fired pistol brass is made with the spent primmer still in place in the base of the now newly formed bullet. At some point between ignition and the bullet hitting the target the primmer becomes dislodged from the base of the bullet and becomes a second projectile (though only 3 grains at around 1K FPS you do the math :) ) while only firing one round. I think it is kind of cool but I only know of 4 or 5 cases of this actually happening.

Swage On!

BT

[BT Sniper]

A couple pics. Thought I actually had a pic of my broke readout on my crony from being hit with the primmer but I'll have to find it later I guess.

BT

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/41cals003.jpg

[Mountain Prepper]

Yep! Our swaged bullets made from fired pistol brass is made with the spent primmer still in place in the base of the now newly formed bullet. At some point between ignition and the bullet hitting the target the primmer becomes dislodged from the base of the bullet and becomes a second projectile (though only 3 grains at around 1K FPS you do the math :) ) while only firing one round. I think it is kind of cool but I only know of 4 or 5 cases of this actually happening.

Swage On!

BT

How does it work if you remove the primer (as in reloading dies to decap first) and then swage with the small (likely insignificant) hole in the case?

[ReloaderFred]

It depends on how you prep it for swaging. If you deprime and anneal with the core in place, the molten lead will run through the flash hole. As long as the brass is setting on a solid surface, the lead will just fill the primer pocket and look basically like in unfired primer. If it's not, you'll lose some of your core, if not most of it.

If the core is seated after annealing, then it will depend on how much pressure is applied in the final swaging. A small amount of lead will squirt through the flash hole, but I imagine that if enough pressure were applied, it would nearly fill it.

I prefer to swage my brass with the primer in place, with the primer as part of the total weight of the bullet. I don't size my brass prior to annealing, so there aren't any additional steps I have to take in regards the primer.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[b2riesel]

I've made ~16,000 .40 S&W from 9mm...of those...over 10,000 were with brass that had the primer removed. It is very very difficult to squeeze lead thru the flash hole. I've seen only 1 or 2 in all the thousands that had even the smallest of squirts into the flash hole at all.

My supplier of 9mm brass does a resize, deprime, and very nice tumble of the brass for $25 for 1,000...and I pick it up so no shipping. I ran out of range pickups a long time ago...heh. I asked what the price would be on unprocessed brass...and he said....$25 for 1k....so I just go with the brass...that way I don't have to clean it much after an anneal.

[ReloaderFred]

The few I did without the primer in place making .44 bullets from .40 brass, I just got a small "tail" protruding through the flash hole. I was thinking that if they were done on a Corbin hydraulic press, or something similar, there would be enough pressure to probably fill the primer pocket, but not with most hand presses.

Fred

[buck1]

I prefer to swage with the primer in for a sealed base. Others shoot boolits with a partly opened base. I just dont feel right in doing that .(if you do thats fine its just not for me).

I belive I may have figured it out but am not sure.
When I fire a primed boolit made from a .40 case it concaves the primer but does not puncture it. I belive if the primer concaves enugh it may pull away from the sides of the primer pocket and then be held in place only by the pressure of the burning charge.
After the boolit leaves the bbl and it looses the pressure from the base the now loose primer slows faster than the rest of the boolit and falls away.

If thats right all is well as the primer cant leave the boolit untill the boolit leaves the bbl.
Thats the only thing I can come up with....Buck

[shooterg]

A lot of the used brass we swage with has been shot mucho many times and may not be grabbing the spent primer so tight anyway, although you'd think squeezing 'em in the die would tighten 'em up...

[sargenv]

Have you noticed very many of these primmers sarge?

I've noticed it on a few occasions.. right now I am shooting my cast stuff since it's Revo season for me. I think I noticed it on paper a couple of times in a few thousand rounds.. I was annealing the brass before and I believe all of the primer separations were with brass that had been annealed. My newer batch of bullets is using un-annealled brass, so when I start shooting my other 40 cal gun I'll be able to give a more definitive answer. I can't wait to shoot my limited gun in a major match and the look that'll be on the chrono man's face when he pulls the bullet :D

[BT Sniper]

I can't wait to shoot my limited gun in a major match and the look that'll be on the chrono man's face when he pulls the bullet :D

Keep us posted on stories like that. Always good for a laugh :)

BT

[mold maker]

So far I haven't seen this happen. I have only recovered a few of the .44 bullets swaged from annealed .40 brass.
Is it possible that the phisics of metal movement in this swaging proscess allows it to follow the path of least resistance, outward into the void in the die? The presence of the primer offers resistance and metal flows actually away from the pocket.
We're splitting hairs here, but could this explain it? A couple .0001 might make the difference.

[7of7]

This is a new one on me. Primers hitting the target? Do you mean they are blowing through the primer pocket? The primers are missing from the brass? How can this happen? If it was, I would sure get rid of that particular firearm and chambering!

I agree, he needs to send the firearm directly to me for further evaluation of this condition. Also need the dies so I can continue to evaluate it...LOL

[xfoxofshogo]

what hapens if a primer stays in the gun and you shoot a 2 one ???

y not just crimp the primers in place all you have to do is hit the rim of the primer pockit with a flat head and a hammer that primer will not come out then

[MIBULLETS]

I don't see how it could stay in the barrel.

[runfiverun]

if you have any moisture in the case, it will either make the primer fall out when swaging [as it comes out from the die the primer will be sitting on the stem] or it'll pop out when it's fired.
iv'e tested this one.
i usually anneal, and use unsized fired cases seat the cores so all the lead is inside the case,and then swage, using very little ram pressure.
just enough to just hit 430 in size and not squeeze out a long nose.
i also use a 180 gr core for just a bit of exposed lead at the tip.
i could get some lead into the primer pocket with the heavier core but not fill it all the way, and didn't have an appropriate size of shot to make it work every time so i now make sure each case is dry.

[azcruiser]

Question are the holes from the primers that hit the target always round ? Or are some of them
going through the target on their side or random and at what range ? Would think if they were going trough always round= Dia of the primer them perhaps the primers is being forced up through the bullet and out trough the hollow point could that happen ? If it makes two holes in the target does that count as two hits in IDPA which would save some seconds off your time .Was doing that with my 44mag and 2 round balls at a match because the rule said two hits per target not two shots per target now they say two shots >

[ReloaderFred]

For a primer to be driven through the bullet, it would also have to penetrate the brass base of the case used for the jacket. It would be just about impossible for a primer, which is basically a hollow cup with an anvil, to be driven through solid brass and a length of lead, and retain it's shape.

What is happening is the primer is coming loose at some point in flight and following the bullet to the target.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Longwood]

It's pretty simple.
Look at it as though the shell and primer are pistons.
A piston will always push harder than it can pull because some of the area of the piston is taken up by the shaft..
One of the pistons - the primer - has a much smaller area and therefore when the charge burns, much more pressure is exerted on the larger area piston which is the shell base, which then begins to accelerate much quicker than the small area piston which is the primer. That pulls the primer from the case, letting it lag behind.

[buck1]

The holes look just like they were shot with a .22 rimfire, all round.
I cand belive the primer could come out of the boolit until it leavs the bbl.

[mold maker]

As the brass expands during swaging, the pocket expands. Sometimes the primers hold on the brass is weak enough that the primer can simply loose velocity and lag behind as a separate projectile. The vacuum immediately behind the bullet causes a drafting affect same as race cars.
Not all of them release, and not all of them follow directly behind, all the way to the target. I would expect some drift off enough to miss the target. If at any point in flight, the loose primer front catches air, at any angle, it would be forced to fly, out of control and away from its host bullet. Only momentum keeps them anywhere close together.

[Longwood]

I cand belive the primer could come out of the boolit until it leavs the bbl.

Why not?
There is nothing that would prevent it other than a little friction.

[a.squibload]

Has to be after it leaves the barrel.
While in the barrel the base and primer are exposed to the same pressure.
Or while in the cylinder anyway? Cylinder gap would decrease pressure.
As far as inertia, the boolit would be harder to accelerate,
so the primer should stay with it 'til they start to coast.

Short answer: danged if I can explain it.

[Longwood]

Has to be after it leaves the barrel.
While in the barrel the base and primer are exposed to the same pressure.
Or while in the cylinder anyway? Cylinder gap would decrease pressure.
As far as inertia, the boolit would be harder to accelerate,
so the primer should stay with it 'til they start to coast.

Short answer: danged if I can explain it.


No, it does not have to happen after it leaves the barrel.

Did you miss the part about the case having a much bigger area?

Bigger area, plus = pressure = more force = faster motion than the primer which has a much smaller area.

I can't figure out a simpler way to explain it than I already posted so I don't know how to help.

A bit of research of fluid dynamics may help you to understand it.

[azcruiser]

someone need to recover some of the fired bullets and take a look at them.

[Intel6]

I think it depends on a lot more factors like the case and the anneal that was put on it before making the bullet. Also the pressure of the load whe the bullet was fired. I don't think there is any real way to tell if you are going to have this issue.

In the first pic below you will see a target where I was shooting my home made 210 gr. JSP bullets out of a Glock 10mm. You can see I had 2 primer hits (small holes circled in red) from two different loads. There were 25 shots on that target but there were only two primer hits? All of these bullets were made in the same batch with 1x fired Geco 9mm brass. If they were all treated the same and loaded the same why wasn't htere more primer seperations?

Now in the second pic the same loads (loaded at the same time) were fired out of my 10mm revolver which pushes the bullets faster with the same load. So same set of test loads fired out of a different gun that pushes them faster and out of 25 rounds there was only one hit?

Now to throw some more out into the mix. I made up some 165 JHP's with 1x fired brass and shot them just over 1,000 fps at stell plates and see the results in the 3rd pic. The brass flowers retained the primers even after the impact with the steel?

This is why I think there are lots of factors involved and you can't say A,B & C will result in a primer seperation.

[buck1]

""Bigger area, plus = pressure = more force = faster motion than the primer which has a much smaller area.""

You forgot- weight, friction.


I belive as the psi as is the same across the entire base of the boolit with primer, the primer must stay aganst the boolit untill the pressure is gone. If there is a muzzle blast there should be pressure behind the boolit.
Also the case portion of the boolit is being held back by rifleings and bbl friction and the primer has nothing to hold it back. Also the boolit is heavier than the primer. I stand by my opinion that the primer stays in the boolit untill it leaves the bbl.

[mold maker]

It's always going to be a luck of the draw whether the primer stays with the rest of the case/bullet, or not.

The other difference in the equation is spin. The primer has only its friction fit to the distorted pocket to impart spin. The whole bullet is snatched into rotation by each edge of the grooves.
Even if the primer does release from the pocket, the preasure of the blast will hold it in place as long as it exists. As the bullet exits the barrel, it looses this preasure, and it is replaced by a vacuum. Until this happens every previous force would keep it in the original position even if it did loosen.

[MIBULLETS]

I agree with the after leaving the barrel theory. Way too much pressure in the barrel for anything to fall out then.

I have never lost a primer using cartridge cases for rifle bullets (that I know of), but I have for pistol bullets. I wonder if the higher pressure of the rifle cartridge smashes the primer in the pocket more when fired. The primers on my recovered rifle bullets are always cupped inward, I assume from the pressure on firing.

[Longwood]

The primer has a much smaller AREA people. The pressure is the same but the WORK - which is what causes the pieces to move - is a lot different on the case, because it has a much larger AREA.
Let's say you have a big cylinder with a piston on each end but one has a smaller AREA. The small piston will put out less WORK so the motion - and the power - would not be the same no matter what the internal pressure is.
What is so difficult to understand?
If you are into physics, you can figure out the exact figures mathematically.

[Longwood]

I agree with the after leaving the barrel theory. Way too much pressure in the barrel for anything to fall out then.

I have never lost a primer using cartridge cases for rifle bullets (that I know of), but I have for pistol bullets. I wonder if the higher pressure of the rifle cartridge smashes the primer in the pocket more when fired. The primers on my recovered rifle bullets are always cupped inward, I assume from the pressure on firing.

Easy to explain.
Does the primer in the rifle bullets have more, or about the same, AREA as the case surrounding it?
Maybe this bit of info will help to explain it.
A cylinder will not pull as hard as it will push simply because the shaft takes up part of the AREA of the piston face.
Hoping this helps.

[buck1]

A bowling ball has more area than a marble. So if I blow on a bowling ball with a big fan and a marble ,the bowling ball will fly away at a high rate of speed and the marble will hardly move?
You have spoke of area but not of weight or friction. They are also needed to get the full answer. Half right is half wrong.

""If you are into physics, you can figure out the exact figures mathematically. ""
I am not in to phisics but you must be, please show us the exact figures mathematically that you speek of.

[Longwood]

A bowling ball has more area than a marble. So if I blow on a bowling ball with a big fan and a marble ,the bowling ball will fly away at a high rate of speed and the marble will hardly move?
You have spoke of area but not of weight or friction. They are also needed to get the full answer. Half right is half wrong.

""If you are into physics, you can figure out the exact figures mathematically. ""
I am not in to phisics but you must be, please show us the exact figures mathematically that you speek of.

Instead of simply arguing about something you do not understand, why don't you do a little research.

[warf73]

Instead of simply arguing about something you do not understand, why don't you do a little research.


Some primers come out and some don't simple.

We are using range pick up brass from many different manufactures. Not all brass is built the same nor are all primers. Some primers fit tighter in some manufactors brass than in others.

That said the looser fitting primers come off of the bullet because of the spin of the bullet.

[Bwana]

I probably shouldn't wiegh in; but, I have been making and shooting bullets made from cartridge cases, for both pistol and rifle, for thirty years. I have had primers come off those bullets for thirty years. It never affected accuracy that I could tell.
Some of those primers came off within the first ten feet of flight. Holes in targets at three yards proved that. The very close proximity of primer made holes to groups at 100yds indicates that those primers came off fairly close to the target.
So what does this mean? Next to nothing other than if you cronograph your rounds you will want to protect the chrono from stray primers and that those stray primers might give you false readings.
All the "rest" really doesn't matter and probably doesn't need to be brought up here.

[mold maker]

"Children, Children," as my MIL used to say, none of us can take that ride behind the bullet, and actually see what happens. We all have a theory, but that's all it is.
I'm reasonably sure we have exhausted this subject, beyond it's usefulness. We know it happens, cause we have seen the results.
There's no point in letting it become pi$$ing match.
Can we all just agree, to disagree, and let it die, a respectful death.

[buck1]

"Can we all just agree, to disagree, and let it die, a respectful death. "

Sound advice.

[MightyThor]

People, people, people, When the primer is seated in the bullet base the whole thing is a single unit. and all the forces act upon that unit. Some of those forces may act upon it in such a way that the unit breaks apart. It is universally accepted that spin is the most common force that disrupts bullet integrity. It is impossible to measure the "vacuum" at the base of a bullet and therefore pointless to speculate that the primer is being sucked out of the pocket. It is also impossible for the primer to leave the pocket before the bullet leaves the barrel. the forces at each point on the base of the bullet are identical enough that it is not worthy of discussion. The primer is a point on the base of the bullet and it experiences the exact same force as the same size spot next to it. So, at some point after the bullet leaves the barrel, and the only forces applied are gravity, centrifugal force and inertia, the primer becomes separated from the rest of the bullet and flies off as it sees fit. End of lesson.

[MightyThor]

It's pretty simple.
Look at it as though the shell and primer are pistons.
A piston will always push harder than it can pull because some of the area of the piston is taken up by the shaft..
One of the pistons - the primer - has a much smaller area and therefore when the charge burns, much more pressure is exerted on the larger area piston which is the shell base, which then begins to accelerate much quicker than the small area piston which is the primer. That pulls the primer from the case, letting it lag behind.

Just to be clear, this is completely incorrect. when the charge burns in the case it presses on the base of the bullet at a specific pressure per area of base. and that includes the primer. every part of the bullet base is receiving the same pressure per square inch or centimeter or what ever unit of size you want to use. Your analysis concerning pistons only applies to pistons that are separate from each other in separate bores. If you put the small piston in the center of the big piston and push on them together within the same bore as happens with our bullets, they will move together at the same time and rate even if they are not attached to each other. Your example is only applicable if you are trying to determine which piston will move a greater weight at the other end of the ram or piston rod. In our bullet situation there is no wight that the bullet(piston) is trying to move.

[MIBULLETS]

Easy to explain.
Does the primer in the rifle bullets have more, or about the same, AREA as the case surrounding it?
Maybe this bit of info will help to explain it.
A cylinder will not pull as hard as it will push simply because the shaft takes up part of the AREA of the piston face.
Hoping this helps.

I don't deny your calculations or that what you say is scientific fact, but I think there is a grip on the rifle primers because those cases get reduced before used as jackets, which makes the primer to case fit much tighter than before the case reduction. On the other hand, most of the pistol bullets guys here are making and expanding the case which causes the grip that the case has on the primer to weaken, so they fall out easier. I just don't think there is enough difference in pressure inside the barrel for them to fall out there.

MightyThor, I think you have it right on!

[Longwood]

. I just don't think there is enough difference in pressure inside the barrel for them to fall out there.

MightyThor, I think you have it right on!

You are correct. The pressure is the same. However, the work, (force) is much different.
I am not an engineer, I am a lowly mechanic that worked with stuff like this for over 50 years. Did not understand it all, just put it to good use.
If you are really interested, little research in Fluid Dynamics will explain it much better.

[a.squibload]

No, it does not have to happen after it leaves the barrel.

Did you miss the part about the case having a much bigger area?

Bigger area, plus = pressure = more force = faster motion than the primer which has a much smaller area.

I can't figure out a simpler way to explain it than I already posted so I don't know how to help.

A bit of research of fluid dynamics may help you to understand it.

Sorry, I've been offline and unable to defend myself.
No, I didn't MISS that part, I just think you are wrong.
Show some formulas, or stop being so condescending.

[a.squibload]

Longwood PM'd me, I guess he wasn't trying to be mean, maybe I overreacted.

His comments about the different-sized hydraulic rams were in reference to a
triple-ram in a single cylinder, 3 different size rams. I don't know enough about it to say
whether hydraulics and cartridge pressure are analogous, but apparently in the hydraulic setup
the biggest ram got the most push.

As far as spin is concerned, I wonder if the instant torque on the case could override the tension
between the case and the primer? Let's say the primer was a bit loose to begin with, and
you smack the case with torque when it hits the rifling (like an impact driver),
maybe it would spin the case around the primer?
If a nut that you can't reach is loose, sometimes you can spin the bolt and use the nut's inertia
to get it to the end of the bolt.

Now I'm thinking we need x-ray movies or an MRI or something to watch it happening,
of course after setting it up the primers would never pop out...

[geargnasher]

I've never swaged a bullet using a fired case for a jacket, but it's pretty simple to me what's going on here, and no one has mentioned it.

When the cartridge is fired, chamber pressure leaks past the spent primer in the base of the projectile, bringing the pressure in the cup anywhere from just over one atmosphere to maximum peak chamber pressure, likely somewhere in between. Upon muzzle exit, the tremendous and sudden drop in pressure outside the swaged bullet creates a violent differential, and if the pressure inside the cup is 20-30Kpsi, it pops the primer out. You all know how little PSI it takes to remove a spent primer, without annealing the whole shebang, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't take much pressure at all to pop the primer out in flight. Due to basic aerodynamics, the spent primer will ride in the slipstream for a while, before the turbulence finally catches it and drag pulls it away from the rest of the projectile.

Gear

[buck1]

That sounds like that could be it buddy.

[Intel6]

My question with any of the theories is about the consistency? If it happend to one why doesn't it happen to them all? When I had primers coming out of those hotter 10mm loads the bulletse were all made with the same brass and only some of them came out?

Neal in AZ

[Bollocks]

Seems to me the primer is mangled by the pressure as there is a hollow space in front of it. Some primers loose their grip as a result and seperate from the bases after the bullets leave the barrel.