What Gun?

[.452dia]

I have been casting for my pistols and hunting rifles for many years. I have decided now that I'm retired and have some time that I would like to start shooting a BPCR in some of the local matches in my area. I would like to hear your suggestions and reasons on what rifle to buy. Remember, I'm retred and on a fixed income so I can't afford a 4 or 5 thousand dollar rifle. I have been looking at some of the Winchester and Browning 1885 Hi Wall models on the net and will maybe be able to swing one if I can find a deal. I would like suggestions based on personal experience with a particular rifle and suggestion on what sights, caliber, barrel length, ect.
Thanks,
G

[LUCKYDAWG13]

What is bpcr would in encore in 454 work

[Black Prince]

I have been looking at some of the Winchester and Browning 1885 models on the net and will maybe be able to swing one if I can find a deal.
You are on the right track 452. And if you have not already done it, talk to our own Texasmac here at Cast Bullets and at http://www.texas-mac.com/index.html He may be able to point you to a good buy and he wrote the book on them. Really! Get the book when you get the rifle.

They are excellent BPCR rifles. Another benefit of them is that they were designed and manufactured to meet the exacting sight, height, weight rules that govern BPCR and silhouette matches. They are heavy enough to hold steady and absorb much of the recoil generated by the typical cartridges used in those rifles. They are well made and they not only hold their value should you want to sell it in the future, but if you take care of them, they are actually slowly going up in price as time goes along. There are other rifles that you can use, but you had better know the rules and make sure other rifles meet them, or take your chances with the range officer who examines rifles before any certified match. They look at you like you and your rifle owe them money. They know the Winchester/Brownings are made to meet the standards, so you don’t usually get the third degree.

But just so you know, not all 1885 Winchester/Brownings are what we call a BPCR rifle. 1885 refers to the year they started being made and thus the action used, which are modern renditions of Brownings high wall action of 1885. Both Browning and Winchester put several different stock and barrel configurations on that action and they are all commonly referred to as being an 1885 model. Watch out for that because not all 1885 models are the same thing. So if you want to shoot in silhouette matches, or the long range (1000 yards) matches, you will need a BPCR designated rifle, and not one of the lighter weight barreled models. Yes. They are heavy and they are heavy for a good reason. So when you pick one up and compare it to say a Browning Traditional Hunter model 1885, you are going to think, no way I am going to use that heavy thing. But as soon as you fire about 20 rounds in your first real match, you'll wish you had that weight. And by the end of that match, you'll decide to either quit shooting those matches, or trade your light rifle for a real BPCR heavy rifle. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND here. So decide BEFORE you put your money down what you want to do with the rifle.

The lighter weight barreled 1885's are good hunting rifles, but they are not good BPCR competition rifles. You can use them for that, but you can also forget about being a real competitor. The real BPCR's can be used for hunting, but you have to really want to use one, and they are not what you'd call "handy" in the hunting woods and fields. So pay your money and take your chances like the rest of us. I love it when the guy to my right or left shows up shooting one of those light weight rifles in a silhouette match because I know he isn't going to beat me.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Bpcr - black powder cartridge rifle

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thanks

[wills]

Go to matches. Let it be known you are looking for a rifle. Get on the club's e mail list. Sooner or later someone will have a rifle for sale, and probably sights, mold and other stuff to go with it.

[Don McDowell]

The two best buys for lessor amounts of money going at the moment are the C Sharps 75, and the current crop of Winchester Bpcr's.
But hangon to your pocket book the rifle is just the start, you'll need decent sights and that's going to set you back 500$ or close to it.
Also don't over look the basic Shiloh business rifle and #3, they're just a tad higher than the two already mentioned.
Before you buy tho you may want to go to your local shoot and ask to see some of the folks rifles, and get to handle and see which rifles you like the looks of and the ones that fit you the best.

[357Mag]

.452 -

Howdy !

I've heard that many have enjoyed and had good results with H & R " Bufallo Classic " rifles. These were made in .45-70 and .38-55.
The " classics " feature longer barrels than rgular factory issue stuff, and also upgraded sights.

They are comparatively affordable, and there's a wealth of info on casting/loading for them on this web site.

Just a thought.

Regards,
357Mag

[gunplumber]

over on the bpcr.net forum there is browning 1885 bpcr in 40/65 with accessories for about 1600 and a shiloh 40/65 for 2900, nice looking rifles.

[wills]

The H&R's arent competition legal.

[Don McDowell]

Even at the "gong" matches where H&R's are legal, you seldom see them placing very well. They're pretty light to go into a full blown match where you might have to fire 40-100 rounds over a couple of days, just for score.
Getting a decent sight that will allow for enough windage and elevation on those is another trick.
They're not bad rifles for plinking and hunting, but competition rifles they're not so hot.

[Baja_Traveler]

I'm pretty much in the same boat - I bought a beautiful Pedersoli Sharps (Navy Arms Import) used, but hardly fired. Then I upgraded the sights to MVA and slowly started collecting all the tack involved with shooting BPCR. I bought the rifle 3 months ago, but just fired it for the first time last weekend. It sucks being financially limited and slow to get up to speed, but it has paid off - the rifle shoots just awesome! Not a cheap shoot to get into, but alot of fun.

[tacklebury]

The H&R's arent competition legal.

They are if you install a tang rear sight or one of the traditional buckhorn flip up ladder sights. 8)

[Black Prince]

What Wills and Don and I are TRYING to tell you guys, is that a light rifle like that isn't going to cut it for serious shooting. You can bring a plow horse to a rodeo if you want to, and I don't care how big your hat is, or how fancy your boots are, you ain't going to win anything riding it.

[tacklebury]

I have no idea if someone could beat you or not, but one can still go have fun. Doesn't sound like he's really looking to go to Nationals anyway. Several people I know compete with them and some have placed as high as 3rd against 1874 Sharps and other typical (a.k.a. expensive) guns. I won't discount the quality of some of these or the accuracy. Been checking out the Shiloh page myself recently, but until then, my Buffalo Classic in .45-70 is still my goto local/fun shooter. ;)

**edit**
I should add one comment though. NRA sponsored matches do not consider the Wesson an acceptable design, so if you plan to shoot NRA, might consider another. 8(

[Black Prince]

You make an excellent point, and one that is legitimate. It is fun to participate and it is a heck of a lot of fun to be around and talk with the other shooters. And the wonderful smell of black powder burning is just as good coming from a light weight rifle as it is from a heavy one. Sometimes I get so caught up in trying to be smarter than I am, I forget to stop and smell the roses. You reminded me to do that today, and I THANK YOU.

[.452dia]

Maybe I had better clarify what I'm looking for. No, I'm not looking to compete in the Nationals but I am wanting to compete in local matches at local maybe state level. I want to be competitive but more important to me is having fun and meeting good people.

As I stated before, I'm retired on disibility and on a fixed income so I can't go out and spend a lot of money on guns and equipment. However, I have been saving some money and selling some of my other toys to be able to get a quality rifle. I like what I see of the Browning/Winchester 1885 Hi Wall BPCR's and will most likely go that way unless someone convinces me of a better option.

I have been a bullet caster for many years and have participated in Benchrest, Practical Rifle and Silhoette events and am I a avid handguner. I am not completly new to BPCR's either as I owned one back in the late eighties/early nineties. Before I go and spend the money I thought I would ask on this forum as it seems to have knowledgeable people willing to share information.
1. How do the Italian Imports compare in quality to the Winchester/Browining Hi wall rifles?
2. How about the Italian Rolling Blocks and Sharps rifles?
3. What (if any) problems or idosyncrasies have you found with these rifles?
4. Any information on these guns that you are willing to share and you have direct experience with.
Again, Thanks
G

[Don McDowell]

In my opinion NONE of the standard finished Italian guns will stand up to a head to head quality/fit/finish contest to the Winchester,Shiloh, CSharps, Lonestar guns.

Go with the Winchester bpcr in 45-70, get a Saeco 645 mould and never look back. Outfit it with the best sights you can afford. My wife is running that rifle and bullet with 2f express bp and she shot right with the bigboys since she's had the rifle.
You do need to be cautioned tho that just buying the rifle and sights is only a portion of what the bpcr game is going to cost you. It takes trigger time to get "competitive" and that takes primer powder and lead. You also need good crossticks, and you need a spotter with good optics.

[.452dia]

In my opinion NONE of the standard finished Italian guns will stand up to a head to head quality/fit/finish contest to the Winchester,Shiloh, CSharps, Lonestar guns.

Go with the Winchester bpcr in 45-70, get a Saeco 645 mould and never look back. Outfit it with the best sights you can afford. My wife is running that rifle and bullet with 2f express bp and she shot right with the bigboys since she's had the rifle.
You do need to be cautioned tho that just buying the rifle and sights is only a portion of what the bpcr game is going to cost you. It takes trigger time to get "competitive" and that takes primer powder and lead. You also need good crossticks, and you need a spotter with good optics.

Thanks Don,
That is what I'm looking for. A couple of questions though if you don't mind? Why 45-70? Will 40-65 work or is it better to stay with the more common 45-70? Triggertime I can have as I have my own 500 yd. range, plenty of lead and casting equipment. The primers and powder I'll have to buy or trade for but I have cross sticks and a good spoting scope.
Thanks,
G

[John Taylor]

If you don't like recoil I have a rolling block in 40-50 with a heavy SS octagon barrel that has never been fired. Customer died before it was finished.

[Don McDowell]

G, it's been my experience that when you load a 40-65 up with the 400gr + bullets and the heavily compressed powder charges it needs to get the velocity to hold up at long range, you gain little in the recoil saving dept.
The 45-70 will hold up better in wind conditions at long range.
Last but not least I almost detest starline brass and that's the only route to properly headstamped brass.
But having said all that I do know some shooters that have very good results shooting the 40-65, so if that's the cartridge you're dreaming on, then by all means go for it.

[Gunlaker]

If you go with the BPCR you may want to save a few bucks in your budget for a trigger job. I recently acquired a used Browning BPCR and it's going in today to get the trigger reduced to 2 1/4 lbs. I've had this done on my Browning Traditional Hunter and I find it makes a big difference for any off hand shooting you do.

Chris.

[.452dia]

Thanks guys,
I'm not recoil shy so I'm not worried about the 45-70 in a gun that heavy. I have fired an Italian made 45-90 and 45-120 that a friend of mine owns. He will probably be selling the 45-120 soon as it is too much gun for him. He doesn't shoot bpcr's competively but loves to shoot Cowboy Action, he also has a farm with a 500 yd range. I'm not convinced the 40-65 is what I want and thats why I asked for opinions. I once had a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 and had the dies and mould for 405 and 500 grain bullets. I loved that rifle and still regret selling it but this same friend talked me out of it.

[Don McDowell]

I believe the trigger on this Winchester bpcr is adjustable. Howsomever it's just fine as it came from the box and as of now anyway needs no special attention.

[montana_charlie]

1. How do the Italian Imports compare in quality to the Winchester/Browining Hi wall rifles?
From the beginning of this thread it has been apparent that the hiwall design is your heart throb. You ask for information about Sharps and rolling blocks, but there is no changing your fundamental lusting.

Since you did ask about Italian guns, I'll just mention the Pedersoli Hiwall.
I don't know it's current price ... or how it relates to the cost of a Browning/Winchester from Japan.

But, Pedersoli builds accurate rifles with fine barrels.

CM

[Bullshop]

John
I would like to hear more about the roller in 40/50.
Is it the straight or the necked? I might be interested if its still available.

[Black Prince]

452

I shoot a Browning BPCR chambered in 40-65. The Browning I have came with a .200 throat and I can seat my 430 grain Hoch nose pour bullets out on the second drive band. The case will then hold about 75 grains of compressed powder. Don is exactly right when he says when you do that, you save nothing in recoil compared to the 45-70. I used to shoot a 45-70 Pedersolli Sharps in competetion until I got the Browning and gave the 45-70 to a young fella just getting started in the sport. He has four kids, welds for a living, and couldn't afford a rifle. There are tmes I wish I had the 45-70 back until I see his face on the firing line and I know it's better that he have it. There is also generally more commonly available gear for the 45-70 than there is for the 40-65. The 40-65 will take down the rams at 500 meters reliably, but if you start shooting much past that range, the 45-70 is the way to go.

[.452dia]

From the beginning of this thread it has been apparent that the hiwall design is your heart throb. You ask for information about Sharps and rolling blocks, but there is no changing your fundamental lusting.
CM

OK, I admit that the Hi Wall has my attention and so far seems to be what I'm looking for. I have fired Trapdoors and Sharps that belonged to other people and the two Pedersoli Hi Walls I mentiond but I have never owned one or shot any of them enough make any judgement on which is the best. The old Navy Arms rolling Block I owned back in the eighties was a 38-55 and I never got the time to really give it a chance so I sold it. Lusting may be a little strong but I definitely have a high interest in the Hi Walls.

[montana_charlie]

I have fired Trapdoors and Sharps that belonged to other people and the two Pedersoli Hi Walls I mentiond
You never mentioned shooting any Pedersoli Hiwalls.
If you meant that mention of two 'Italian rifles in 45/90 and 45/120' ... Pedersoli doesn't build their hiwall in (either of) those calibers.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_65/rifles-high-wall.html

CM

[wills]

They are if you install a tang rear sight or one of the traditional buckhorn flip up ladder sights. 8)

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/Sil-r/sil-r-book.pdf

I should have been more specific. For silhouette it has to be originally black powder, manufactured pre 1895 or replica thereof. There is a link to the rules.

[Black Prince]

Actually Wills, if people know the sport, you don't have to do that. We have the rule book memorized. But this forum is open to all people, and some of them talk about things when they should be listening. No harm done. 452 seems to be on the right track. You and Don seem to have more patience than Charlie and I do with that kind of thing. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet. The four of us were around and involved when this sport was just beginning. Some of us have rule books marked "Provisional" before the rules were even finalized. I have a Siluetas Metalicas rule book like that around here somewhere, but can't find it because I am looking for it. It'll show up tomorrow. See photo below.


http://i53.tinypic.com/2mewqd2.jpg

[.452dia]

You never mentioned shooting any Pedersoli Hiwalls.
If you meant that mention of two 'Italian rifles in 45/90 and 45/120' ... Pedersoli doesn't build their hiwall in (either of) those calibers.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_65/rifles-high-wall.html

CM

I really don't recall what make they were, I just know they were Italian and I remember the calibers. Like I said, I don't claim to even be a novice when it comes to BPCR's, that why I asked you guys.

[Black Prince]

You are amoung kindred spirits here 452, so don't feel like a novice. These guys know their stuff and you couldn't be in a better place to get good information and help. And once you start shooting and get to know other BPCR shooters, you will come up to speed quickly. And as Wills has mentioned, many of those shooters are trading guns all the time so all kinds of things like moulds, sizers, loading dies, and other things you'll need are always comming available and usually, at good prices. I've met a couple of knuckleheads in this sport, but they don't last very long. Most of the BPCR shooters are the salt of the earth and will help you any way they can.

[.452dia]

Thanks Black Prince,
I got interested in BPCR shooting when I met a few folks that shoot in Southern Virginia. I live in Northern North Carolina so I could join either a VA Club or an NC Club. The folks I met so far have been great and thats what makes it fun.

[Don McDowell]

452 I don't know much about the distances involved, but I'm betting if you would make your way into Georgia to spend a weekend shooting a match with Black Prince and co. you would learn an encyclopedia full of stuff about these bpcr rifles, and have a heck of a good time doin it.

[John Taylor]

John
I would like to hear more about the roller in 40/50.
Is it the straight or the necked? I might be interested if its still available.

The 40-50 sharps is a strait, make brass from 30-40 Kreg by cutting at the shoulder. This rifle weighs 11 pounds 10 ounce approximately. The barrel is stainless octagon. Action is a new Navy Arms in the white. Wood is new Navy Arms. there is a chip at the heal that has been repaired ( probably broke in shipping ). Brass butt plate and barrel band. Barrel has no dovetails, owner wanted to mount a scope. When I called to ask about scope placement I found out he had died from a stroke. Rifle has not been fired yet. I believe the groove diameter is .408", don't remember the twist but if you interested I will find out.

[Black Prince]

452

Don's suggestion to visit here and shoot is a good one. I belong to two area clubs and shoot in various matches at another. The three clubs are all within 10 to 30 minutes driving time from my house, and River Bend is only 8 miles from here. In fact, when the wind is out of the south, I can sit on my deck and not only see River Bend Gun Club, but I can hear (faintly) the rifle shots being fired there. If you look at the photo's of part of the River Bend range, the mountain you see in the background is where I live up near the top on the south side.

http://www.pcsc.us/
http://www.cherokeegunclub.org/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=7
http://www.rbgc.org/buffalo/buffalo_rifles.htm

I don't belong to the River Bend Club because it cost 900 dollars and although I'll gladly pay the match fees, I am not going to pay any 900 bucks to shoot my rifle there. They have nice facilities, but they are not that dang nice. PCSC let's people over 65 shoot for a hundred bucks. If you are retired militayy or law enforcement, and I am both, you get another 25 bucks knocked off. So I shoot there for 75 bucks a year (or that is what it cost for the last four years since I turned 65) and have been a member for the past 23 years. Cherokee is a little more expensive, and it is the most distant range from my house, so I am considering dropping my membership there and just paying the match fees like River Bend.

But we have several very decent ranges to shoot near here, and indeed, we shoot the Southeastern Fall BPCR Regional Mid-Range Target Championships at River Bend every year and I'd be happy to help you get registered to shoot in any certified match, or just shoot one of the monthly matches. We are just a bunch of old pharts who like the smell of black powder burning and the distant CLANG of a big bullet hitting a steel ram at 500 meters. Come moan down.

[.452dia]

452 I don't know much about the distances involved, but I'm betting if you would make your way into Georgia to spend a weekend shooting a match with Black Prince and co. you would learn an encyclopedia full of stuff about these bpcr rifles, and have a heck of a good time doin it.

The Virginia Club I referred to is a splinter club off a national club and I think they shoot all over the country. Several years ago I visited a mixed match of Muzzle Loader Events and BPCR Matches held in the Mtns. of Virginia. I shot my Lyman 54 cal. Plains Rifle and had just as much fun as the guys with the custom built guns and didn't embarass my self. Some folks brought campers and some enjoyed wilderness camping for the week with the events starting on Sat. Many were dressed in period dress but everyone was friendly, helpful enjoying and the event (even though it rained most of the time). I was particularly impressed with the wilderness camp setups and period or handmade tools. The openfire cooking with wild game was a treat but I think I ate the best biscuits, cornbread and pinto beans I have ever had. These folk were serious. I took my daughter (12 at the time) with me and to this day she wants to go to another.

[Don McDowell]

Yessir those rondezvous' were a lot of fun. BPCR shoots are a little different atmosphere, but the people are alot the same.
Way back when I won one of those Lyman rifles, a 54 flinter, and yes it shot just as well as my custom made flintlock hawken that cost about twice as much as the Lyman.
Unfortunately the quality the Italians put into their muzzleloaders don't always carry thru to the bpcr's..

[Black Prince]

Well if you like to shoot with "splinter" groups, the Church Of the Painful Truth (COPT) is about as "splinter" as you can get. You are also welcome to shoot with us. We don't charge any dues or match fees, and you get what you pay for. This is all done at a private hunting camp in south Mississippi with a nice big creek on it, and camping grounds for trailers, motor homes, or tents. Here are some photos. Study them carefully before you decide because you may not want to be associated with this nefarious bunch of ner do wells.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2dhzd3k.jpg

That would be me there kneeling with the COPT tee shirt. This is part of the 2011 group. ( We have been doing this since 1990) The big guy with the dark glasses standing behind me is from Waynesboro, Virginia and comes most every year. The guy on the far left is from Nickelsville, Virginia and comes every year and is two times USA long range pistol champ. The guy on the far right is from Colorado and comes every year. We have had people come from California, and we had a great guy come from Canada every year until he died two years ago. His last wish was for his ashes to be spread out here and I did that at a solem ceremony of the COPT two years ago.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2znxpur.jpg

This is part (the early birds) of the 2009 group

http://i55.tinypic.com/1zgceo1.jpg


http://i51.tinypic.com/156qutv.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/2j154r9.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/2gy5e0i.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2nvc6u0.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/wt92dg.jpg

And uhhh, we have been known to shoot bowling ball mortars and other stuff as well, but we ain't NRA certified.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2s7wcug.jpg

[.452dia]

Looks like the same Good Ole Boys & Gals as around here. I never could get into the period dress thing (mainly because I'm a Big Ole Boy myself) and can't find any to fit me.

Those ranges look nice but that is alot of money to shoot. There are a couple of good ranges east of me about a hours drive but nothing over 200 yds close by except for private ranges.

My Daughter has been doing a Residency at the VA Hosp. in Fayetteville for the last year and has had to go to a couple of the VA Hospitals or Universities around Athens Ga. for a week or two at a time. Ahh, the post college, medschool life. She has had a couple of offers but she wants to remain as close to Charleston SC as possibe. My wife and I spend alot of time in Charleston visiting. I know thats still quite a ways from you but I do get down that way every now and then.

[Black Prince]

Looks like the same Good Ole Boys & Gals as arround here

You WISH. We are a whole lot's more better lookin' than yawl are. Didja notice how much better we look hold'in them BPC& R rifalguns? And the best look'in ones are hold'in them Browning BPC&R's. So if you wanna look good too, you know which rifalgun to get.

[wills]

The esteemed Mr. Alterfurz has some photos available, including the Cybershoot.

http://community.webshots.com/user/alterfurz

[Black Prince]

Well now dang it Wills, you have caused me to sit here half the morning looking at all of those photo's and I have got to install a brass butt plate on my Stevens 44 1/2 action buttstock and planned to do it this morning. I filed on that darn thing about four hours yesterday to get it cleaned up. When they say those things are rough sand castings, they ought to put the word ROUGH in capital letters. Great photo's. THANKS!

[.452dia]

The esteemed Mr. Alterfurz has some photos available, including the Cybershoot.

http://community.webshots.com/user/alterfurz

Those Dutch Oven Biscuits look good as long as that not the same Dutch Oven he melts his lead in. :kidding:
Whats that round white thing with the black hose on it in the photo of the saugsage cooking? :kidding:

[Bullshop]

I remember chatting with Mr. Alterfurz's when we were at Shooters. That is where I started out on the BPC forum.
It was my good fortune to meet his crew at the 03 Quiggley. He was very busy spotting for a couple German visitors but still tried to help me by spotting for me as well.
I did quite well there on my score but would not have without a spotter.
I lost touch with him after the move from Shooters. I would like to know where he hangs out now. Its a bit late but I never did get to thank him.

[Don McDowell]

Well now dang it Wills, you have caused me to sit here half the morning looking at all of those photo's and I have got to install a brass butt plate on my Stevens 44 1/2 action buttstock and planned to do it this morning. I filed on that darn thing about four hours yesterday to get it cleaned up. When they say those things are rough sand castings, they ought to put the word ROUGH in capital letters. Great photo's. THANKS!

Some pictues and details of that project would be nice...
Is it an original you're rebuilding or one of the new ones your finishing,.. Inquiring minds want to know...:-D

[wills]

After the shooters board closed (when was that?) Alterfurz ran a group on MSN, and moved to Texas, somewhere not far from here, I think. I believe he came to some matches at YCSA. The e mail address I have no longer works. I will see if I locate him.

[Black Prince]

Wal Don, here's ah pictute of the dang thang, just for you.


http://i56.tinypic.com/212tobn.jpg


http://i51.tinypic.com/21diw0o.jpg


Actually, there are TWO photo's of it. It looks a lot better here that it really is because until I cut the bottom flat on the belt sander. there was NOTHING flat, sqaure, plumb, or level on it. It is full of small casting imperfections and the mould marks are boogers to file out. But a redneck rifle builder has to suck it up and go ahead because it's all he can do.

[Don McDowell]

Looks like a challenge, but I'll bet it's going to be fancy looking when you geterdone.

[Black Prince]

Wal Don, I did not intend to leave this thread here, but my hard drive crashed here. so . . .

BTW, I had Carbonite back up, but guess what? They could not find my files. I had been on Carbonite for two years on two different computers and they could not get ANY of my files at all. Jist a little "didja know" for any of you boys using it.

Anyway, here are a BUNCH OF PHOTO'S of what I was doing at the time. I bought this barrelled ( Douglas XX Premium done by Paul Shuttleworth) action (original Stevens 44 1/2) from a friend who bought it several years ago intending to do to it what I did, but he had heart problems and never did it, so I bought the "project" rifle from him.


http://i55.tinypic.com/2w1yryh.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/30rp5p2.jpg

Finished Rifle project except for palm rest I'm still working on. But check out the photo's below to see what it took to get to this point.

http://i52.tinypic.com/5dp6v7.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/wbfpcm.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/23r8yt1.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/27x2x47.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/fkshmw.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/rmoizk.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/1193vqq.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/imt5ow.jpg

[Black Prince]

http://i51.tinypic.com/tapqv7.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/33p3ckh.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/o5cdcm.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/nd4ck8.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/20jl3ic.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/296hvtw.jpg

And that is the easy part.

[

[Black Prince]

http://i56.tinypic.com/334rl8x.jpg

The firing pin was braded and had a mushroom on the end of it when I got it. Some people ought not own firearms and whoever did this is one of'em.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ibhwmp.jpg

This shows the firing pin also bent upward. It will not move in the block at all. You can't chamber a round and close the action because the protruding firing pin hits the cartridge base and jams everything. Whoever did it also managed to scratch the refinished block installing it in the action. Notice also the mark the firing pin left on the extractor face. The extractors in these actions have a small grove in them in case something like this happens and it happens so much with these actions, they built in what they thought would keep the pin from breaking, and in this case, it did not break. But if it will not move, who cares if it is broke or not? The dang thing won't work either way.

http://i52.tinypic.com/24yadqo.jpg

I CAREFULLY used a swiss needle file and filed the mushroom off the firing pin, and then filed it on top where it was bent upwards until I could push it back inside the block with my fingers. I hoped the breech face on the block had not been damaged by the pin being bent. I reinstalled the firing pin after removing it and cleaning/polishing it, but you can see how much I had to take off of it, and this AIN'T gonna work no.

http://i56.tinypic.com/znq68m.jpg

Here is the new firing pin I got from CPA. I also got a new hammer screw because the one in the action is so messed up, I will have to weld it and recut it. For two bucks I just bought a new one. You can see the new hammer screw and the refinished trigger screws in this photo. Notice they are alingned with the long axis of the rifle they way the old Brownings used to be made. I also got a couple of nice oval head blued gun screws to mount the butt plate. I installed the new firing pin and fired a primer in a case in it to check it. The primer and case had a small mark on them where something on the breech face marked them. My hope that the bent firing pin had not damaged the block face did not prove to be good. So I wraped my needle file in a piece of 1500 grit paper and very carefully and lightly polished around the firing pin and reinstalled the block. I fired another primer loaded case and here it is below. No marks and a nice clean case head like it should be. Okay. Now I am happy and ready to get on with the project. Oh. I didn't tell yawl about having to widen the grove in the firing pin to increase the length of travel so it could retract all the way below the breech face and having to install another rebound spring and all that business, but I had to do all of that to get to this point. Working on old guns is so much fun sometimes. It's like a puzzle, only you have to figure out what the last redneck did to it and fix that before you can move ahead.

http://i53.tinypic.com/10n84qr.jpg

Success is a nice, clean case after firing and extracting.

http://i55.tinypic.com/90bx54.jpg

Well here I am feeling cocky about getting this project finished. So I lay out a diamond pattern on the forestock and I'm gonna checker it.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2lmpi51.jpg

And here I have discovered I laid it out wrong and that I can't see 20 lines per inch, this is fugly and it's gotta go. Oh, and that is about the second coat of finish drying on the buttstock there. I think I only used a half gallon of pollyurathane on this project. ( So far.)

http://i54.tinypic.com/23w5u35.jpg

And here I scraped it off and I'll have to refinish the forearm AGAIN. (This will be the THIRD time. So far anyway.) Sometimes I zip my zipper up on my jeans before I oughta do it. And every time I do it, I say, DANG! Doan do that no more and then I get inna hurry and do it again.

I gotta nuther barrelled action from the same fella, but don't want to start it now. Think I'll save it for next summers rifle project and start loading for this one to see if it'll shoot worth a hoot.

http://i53.tinypic.com/258ndy8.jpg

Here's my first batch of bullets for it. The bullets are cast 1 part tin to 25 parts lead. They drop out of the mould at 250 grains and mike at .3787. My bore air gages at .3762. I have a Lee push through sizing die at .377, so somewhere between as cast diameter and the Lee die at .377, they will fit. Well, that's the THEORY anyway. Time will tell.

[Don McDowell]

very nice

[azcruiser]

Just my 2 cents .452 you said you wanted to start shooting BPCR matches .You didn't say you wanted to win .I would get what ever I could afford and enjoy the match first or last a day at the range with new friends can't be beat .