Goin' bug-twitch crazy!

[offshore44]

I took a break from working on the paper patching for the 458WinMag for a couple of weeks, and cranked out ammo for some other stuff that I needed to catch up on. Started in again Saturday evening trying to work up some plinking / hunting loads using a 350 grn boolit.

I generated more scrap lead and paper shreds than even I believed was possible. Tried 20# rag velum, 16# typewriter paper, 16# cash register tape, 20# bond, pre-sizing, post sizing, pre- AND post-sizing, dry wrapping, wet wrapping, goop, no goop, gluing the trailing edge... I tried everything except throwing the components into a box and shaking until something useful came out. That's about four hours of my life I'll never get back. ...and I burned the brats on the grill that evening as well. Not Cajun style burned, charcoal briquette burned. Arggh! Some days paper patching is a completely useless waste of time and energy. The worst part is I couldn't even get enough consistency to the problems to learn anything useful. /rant off/

Today is another day though, so we will see what we shall see.

[CJR]

offshore44,

In my view, your worst loss was the "brats on the grill". We can't help you with the "brats", so you'll need to concentrate on that ASAP! I suggest you first consume some nice brats with a couple of very TALL beers. After that, you'll be in the right frame of mind and we'll be able to help you with your PPCB problems..

Best regards,

CJR

[pdawg_shooter]

I patch ALL my rifle boolits. I get jacketed velocity and accuracy from all of them, including my 458 Win Mag.

[uscra112]

If you haven't gotten a copy of Paul Matthews' book yet, get it and study it before you waste any more lead and/or burn anymore brats.

[offshore44]

Got the book, read it a bunch of times...got a LOT of help here as well with working up 420 grn PP for the same rifle. That was what was making me crazy.

I got it under control now... I actually got 10 boolits all set for loading.

[offshore44]

I patch ALL my rifle boolits. I get jacketed velocity and accuracy from all of them, including my 458 Win Mag.

We had that discussion in another thread. Thanks for the help by the way! The 420 grn loads are coming right along...and translated successfully to the 465 grn loads as well.

I think that I figured out the majority of my issues with the 350 grn fiasco.

The patches for the 350 grn boolits are narrower than the ones for the 420 grn. After I get them dampened, they do not have the same tensile strength. After wrapping several hundred of the bigger boolits, my muscle memory and technique didn't translate to the shorter 350 grn boolit. Too much tension (torn patches), alignment issues, patch moisture saturation issues, patch size issues (not wide enough to get a good heel lap, to long) and various other newby mistakes.

I settled down and focused on the basics that I knew worked with the bigger slugs. Success! I have produced 10 shoot-able PP boolits. Other than over all length, the dimensions are almost exactly the same as the bigger boolits.

I have produced and shot a few of these before. Fifteen or twenty, maybe. I stopped messing with them while I concentrated on the 420 grain accuracy loads. The previous attempt produced one, three shot group, where all three holes touched at 100 yards. Most of the groups were around 2 - 3". The deal is figuring out how to produce these rounds consistently and on demand.

The big thing I learned from this is that watching the grand son, cooking dinner and paper patching don't mix very well. :groner:

[offshore44]

offshore44,

In my view, your worst loss was the "brats on the grill". We can't help you with the "brats", so you'll need to concentrate on that ASAP! I suggest you first consume some nice brats with a couple of very TALL beers. After that, you'll be in the right frame of mind and we'll be able to help you with your PPCB problems..

Best regards,

CJR

Ya, I hate wasting good brats! It turned out to be a frame of mind / concentration issue in the end. Lesson learned. Thanks for listening to me snivel.

[Simonpie]

Did you size the brats first? The usuall technique is to get a brat slightly smaller than the gullet, then wrap in bun until fully gullet sized, maybe .001 larger. Be sure to lube with special KMM lube (Ketchup, mustard, mayo). These always slide smoothly through the bore for me. Use a beer based bore cleaner between brats.

[Milsurp Junkie]

Simonpie,

What kind of muzzle velocity you are getting with your technique? :kidding:

[offshore44]

Did you size the brats first? The usuall technique is to get a brat slightly smaller than the gullet, then wrap in bun until fully gullet sized, maybe .001 larger. Be sure to lube with special KMM lube (Ketchup, mustard, mayo). These always slide smoothly through the bore for me. Use a beer based bore cleaner between brats.

That's some funny stuff right there...

Thanks!

[Three44s]

Don't "back fire" around an open flame!

We'll never know how your "patchin' turned out!!


Three 44s

[Milsurp Junkie]

I would be afraid of the potential for S.E.E.

[Jim]

The fired brats may be recoverable, but you may want to give some thought to smelting for the purpose of reuse.

[offshore44]

You-all are just to funny...

The Brats were unrecoverable, unfortunately, but I had more in the freezer. That worked out in the end.

I did get a load worked out that shoots nicely over the next few days. Sized the boolits to 0.452", wrapped with 20# velum, dry and barely glued the trailing edge with that stick school glue. They turned out right at about 0.462-3". Ran then through the sizer and ended up with a 0.461" diameter. Finger lubed with Lee liquid Alox. Used CCI #250 primers. Seated them over 77 grns of H4895 so that the crimp was right in the first lube groove from the base. The PPCB's were a firm thumb push fit into the cases. Mild crimp with a Lee factory crimp die. (the usual disclaimers apply here...my gun, etc. kids, don't try this at home, etc.)

Shot them over the chrony this last weekend and I am happy with the results. Pretty consistent 2,415 to 2,430 fps. No barrel leading. The patches were a cloud of dust out the muzzle. Group size was a pretty consistent 2-2 1/2". Part of that may have been me, too. Recoil was mild(er). No barrel leading, and none of the patches in the magazine were cut by the recoil. I think the folks that were up shooting with me thought that I was special. Shoot one, unload the magazine and inspect the cartridges, reload and shoot another, repeat. They didn't leave though.

Next time around, I'm going to try loading these one grease groove deeper. I'm pretty sure that not all of the PPCB's were straight in the case. I'm thinking that a little more seating depth may help out with that. We'll see what we shall see. Oh, and the drizzle didn't seem to effect the patches at all.

[303Guy]

Group size was a pretty consistent 2-2 1/2". Part of that may have been me, too.You know, I do believe that the paper patch has sub-MOA potential. My results have so far always had another rational explanation for being poor. Frig'zample, My gun shoots high and to the right but scope adjustments don't shift the POI. Then when the POI does respond I have to bring it back! That can only be the scope since the group sizes were very good. So what I'm trying to say is there is no way 2-2½ inch groups is the best the rifle with paper patch is capable of. I did try a different load with the same PPCBoo with shotgun powder and the grouping was pretty poor. The load that did work was H4350 (AR2209) plus wheat bran filler. Not necessarily transferable to another cartridge but the point is there is a load and PPCBoo that will work in eacg gun. (My load has worked in two guns but with slighly different boolit profiles to suite each one's throat).

As pdawg_shooter said to me - keep trying, it's fun! And it is!

[offshore44]

You know, I do believe that the paper patch has sub-MOA potential. My results have so far always had another rational explanation for being poor. Frig'zample, My gun shoots high and to the right but scope adjustments don't shift the POI. Then when the POI does respond I have to bring it back! That can only be the scope since the group sizes were very good. So what I'm trying to say is there is no way 2-2½ inch groups is the best the rifle with paper patch is capable of. I did try a different load with the same PPCBoo with shotgun powder and the grouping was pretty poor. The load that did work was H4350 (AR2209) plus wheat bran filler. Not necessarily transferable to another cartridge but the point is there is a load and PPCBoo that will work in eacg gun. (My load has worked in two guns but with slighly different boolit profiles to suite each one's throat).

As pdawg_shooter said to me - keep trying, it's fun! And it is!

Oh, I completely agree with that. Starting out with a fiasco and ending up with 2 1/2" groups is a start though. I know there is accuracy hidden in there somewhere, because several of the five shot groups had three holes right on top of each other. there is something going on, that I don't understand quit yet though. The heavier bullets (420 & 465 grn) are showing a LOT of promise. I am working up another batch of 50 right now to try out this weekend.

It doesn't seem that my rifle (CZ 458 win mag) is all that finicky about casual accuracy. Most anything I do puts them into 2 - 2 1/2". Cutting the group size in half is pretty easy with a little experimentation. That's where I'm at right now with the 350 grn. Cutting the group size in half again, to around 3/4 - 1" takes some really meticulous and time consuming effort. That's where I'm at with the heavy loads. Working my way down from 1 1/2 to 2" groups to the under 1" groups.

I'm thinking that I may have to modify my reloading dies by opening them up (again) and do some other interesting things to get there. The rifle's chamber is very generous, to say the least. I am seating the heavier PPCB's out to touch the throat / leade and sizing the brass just enough to get thumb pressure seating. Can't do that with the 350's, as the leade is long enough that there isn't any boolit in the case when that approach is taken with them. The rifle is a Safari gun, so it is probably designed to shoot the heavy bronze solids in really hot weather and grungy, dusty conditions.

My idea is to size the cases as little as possible and seat the 350 grn boolits to spec. Use the cases to try and hold the boolit straight and aligned with the bore as much as possible. Should give me better case life as well. To do that, I'm going to have to open my seating die up to accept a boolit diameter of probably around 0.463 - 4". I have already opened it up to 0.460", and that has made a measurable difference in the accuracy of the heavier PPCB's already. I am a little hesitant to go there, because it is a one way trip on the die. If it doesn't work, it'll be awhile before I can afford to get a replacement to start over. If it does work, it will eliminate the need to size after patching. There is a lot to be gained right there!

On another note... I am trying a little post patch lubing with LLA. I was shooting the patches dry. Is there such a thing as too much LLA? I kind of went crazy on about a half dozen of my boolits.

[offshore44]

You know 303guy, one of your comments got me to thinking...always a dangerous thing. I didn't lap the scope rings in when I mounted the scope. This rifle likes to throw shots to the right and high as well. Hmmmm, I wonder if the scope is bound up in the rings? That's something to check out.

[barrabruce]

I now only use one drop of LLA per 4-5 bullets.

Take a drop and spread over grease proof paper. Say 2-3 inches.
Roll the PP over that.
Or roll PP and gpp like a cigarette.

It will be very hard to see the LLA but a slight tint off white when dry.

I used to slap her on a bit at the start pretty liberal.

I only succeeded to change the paper into a semi sticky fluidy thing. Given a few months to mature.

To check leave sit around for a while..cut patch off after sizing and see if it has penetrated the first layer of paper.
If it hasn't yer good to go!!

My opinion only as usual your milage may very.
Barra
But then again I don't get sub moa either.

[offshore44]

I now only use one drop of LLA per 4-5 bullets.

Take a drop and spread over grease proof paper. Say 2-3 inches.
Roll the PP over that.
Or roll PP and gpp like a cigarette.

It will be very hard to see the LLA but a slight tint off white when dry.

I used to slap her on a bit at the start pretty liberal.

I only succeeded to change the paper into a semi sticky fluidy thing. Given a few months to mature.

To check leave sit around for a while..cut patch off after sizing and see if it has penetrated the first layer of paper.
If it hasn't yer good to go!!

My opinion only as usual your milage may very.
Barra
But then again I don't get sub moa either.

Ya, I'm guessing that I went a little crazy on the LLA then. I have a few extra. I'll cut them apart and look at the ones that look like they got soaked in...well, I'll leave that up to your imagination.

[303Guy]

My patch lubing is a roll on the case lube pad with STP on it. It 'dissapears' into the paper and I'm sure it does not interfere with the pneumatic effect of paper if that is actually real. It does make for easier seating of the PPCB. I did do test tube trials with dry and lubed and there was a difference althjough by now I don't remember exactly what that difference was. It was enough at the time to make to stay with lubing. I think I got higher velocity without patch failure and a cleaner bore.

[CJR]

Offshore44,

I noticed you are hand seating your PPCB and then Lee factory crimping. Is there any chance that maybe your PPCB is being seated deeper into the case during the rifle loading process? Every thing I've read states the leading edge of the PPCB should be against the forcing cone and the 458WM has a long taper forcing cone. When I did not place the leading edge of my PPCB against the forcing cone and my bullet had to move/jump a distance before contacting the forcing cone, my accuracy suffered. I picked that up by reading that the NRA discovered the same thing in their PPCB research. The best is to let the rifle do the final seating when the round is chambered.

Lastly, is the leading edge of your PP against the forcing taper or is part of the exposed lead of the CB against the forcing taper? If it's the later you may want to try relocating the leading edge of the PP so it's in contact with the long tapered forcing cone before ignition. The NRA discussed doing that in great detail. A trick I started doing that works for me, is to take a flat base jacketed bullet and square the base to a sharp corner. Then LONG seat this bullet, nose first, into an empty case. Keep trying to chamber that dummy round, by shortening the OAL, until it chambers. The leading edge of the squared base is where your PP will contact the forcing cone. Now extend your PP a little more forward and try that. This works great for my 308 since my PPCB final sized diameter is 0.308"D like the jacketed bullet. After you get the leading edge of the PP far enough forward, you may need to do additional trial fit-ups if your PPCB diameter is different than your jacketed bullet. Hope this helps!

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

... the leading edge of the PPCB should be against the forcing cone and the 458WM has a long taper forcing cone.I've developed this theory that the long forcing cone is what makes some rifles easier to obtain good accuracy with paper and the 458 often comes up as a very accurate PPCB rifle. The case capacity to bore size is probably close to optimum too. My two accurate Lee Enfields both have 'worn into long' forcing cones.

[offshore44]

That's interesting stuff there, 303guy. Do you use the STP lubed pad to lube cases as well? Any issues with getting the STP off the cases after sizing?

[offshore44]

Offshore44,

I noticed you are hand seating your PPCB and then Lee factory crimping. Is there any chance that maybe your PPCB is being seated deeper into the case during the rifle loading process? Every thing I've read states the leading edge of the PPCB should be against the forcing cone and the 458WM has a long taper forcing cone. When I did not place the leading edge of my PPCB against the forcing cone and my bullet had to move/jump a distance before contacting the forcing cone, my accuracy suffered. I picked that up by reading that the NRA discovered the same thing in their PPCB research. The best is to let the rifle do the final seating when the round is chambered.

Lastly, is the leading edge of your PP against the forcing taper or is part of the exposed lead of the CB against the forcing taper? If it's the later you may want to try relocating the leading edge of the PP so it's in contact with the long tapered forcing cone before ignition. The NRA discussed doing that in great detail. A trick I started doing that works for me, is to take a flat base jacketed bullet and square the base to a sharp corner. Then LONG seat this bullet, nose first, into an empty case. Keep trying to chamber that dummy round, by shortening the OAL, until it chambers. The leading edge of the squared base is where your PP will contact the forcing cone. Now extend your PP a little more forward and try that. This works great for my 308 since my PPCB final sized diameter is 0.308"D like the jacketed bullet. After you get the leading edge of the PP far enough forward, you may need to do additional trial fit-ups if your PPCB diameter is different than your jacketed bullet. Hope this helps!

Best regards,

CJR

That's what I do with the 420 and 465 grn PPCB's, and the accuracy of those is getting to be pretty good. Better than I can hold most times in fact.

The heavier PPCB's are seated so that the paper over the ogive just contacts the forcing cone / leade / throat. It leave a really nice powder mark right up to where the ogive almost ends. There is almost 3/32" of contact on the paper. (that's an eyeball estimate.) I don't crimp the heavier PPCB's. I don't size the cases for those any more than a firm to very firm thumb push fit. I use a Hornady seating die that I honed out to seat them. The Hornady die does a really nice job of getting the PPCB into the case very straight and to the proper depth each time. The Hornady dies are a very close tolerance assembly to start out... I had to hone the sleeve out on the seating die to even get them to work with PPCB's. Crushed probably half a dozen cases before I figured that one out. (at a buck each)

I do have to single feed them though, the recoil slams them into the front of the magazine and pushes them into the case a fair bit. I am shooting at j-word velocities, and middle / upper end j-word velocities at that. The 420 grn PPCB's are tooling right along in the 2,250 fps range and the 465 PPCB's are at around 2,100 to 2,150 fps, depending on what I load them with.

The 350 grn PPCB's are a different ball of wax altogether...

The intent is to get them to feed and shoot from the magazine. One of the issues is that there is just not enough boolit there to seat them out far enough to touch the leade on this rifle. That means that I would have to use a ball seater to seat the bullet in the leade, and then load the case in behind it. Kinda defeats the purpose of magazine feeding. I could get a boolit that had a much shorter or no ogive, kind of a wad cutter / cylinder of lead thing, but I really don't want to go there either. For the time being I am having to use the molds and tools that I have on hand.

So, to recap, the intended end point is a lighter PPCB load that shoots well enough for "government work" (plinking and hunting at the ranges typical around here) that I can feed from the magazine. That's one in the chamber and four down.

I am trying to use a combination of paper type, lube, neck tension, case fill and crimp to achieve that goal. Worst case, each loaded cartridge has to survive four recoil impulses without the paper getting cut or the PPCB getting set back. I have achieved that, but the accuracy is only about 2 - 2 1/2" so far. (@ 100 yards or so) If I can get that down to an inch or slightly over with this load, I'm golden. 30 years ago, 2 - 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards was not horrible for a hunting rifle, not so much today though, huh?

For accuracy, I single load and shoot the heavier PPCB's; and I am gradually sneaking up on the sub-MOA goal. That "little" project is coming along swimmingly, with all of the help and guidance that I have received here.

I have another 50 rounds loaded up. I am prognosticating that I will get these to shoot into about 2" at 100 yards. Usable, but not great. No bragging righst there at all these days. The crystal ball is telling me that I am going to have to hone out the seating die sleeve again by about another two to three thousandths and stop sizing after patching. That will give me a PPCB diameter of 0.464" minus just a hair. Very little, if any, case sizing will be required. The PPCB's will fit the throat better in all PPCB weights. The un-patched boolits will still be 0.0015 to 0.002" over bore, but the patched PPCB's will be about 0.006" over the groove diameter. They will fit the generous "Safari" throat though.

I guess that Hornady will sell me another seating die sleeve if this doesn't work out as planned...

[CJR]

Offshore44,

Sounds like you're closing in on tight groups. Are you weighing your bullets? That may help a little to tighten groups. Measurements I took on my 458WM indicated that a custom LBT LFN 375 gr bullet was the lightest I could use and still get adequate seating depth/neck grip. Best neck grip, etc., would be a 500 gr. hollowpointed to reduce weight.

Best regards,

CJR

[offshore44]

Offshore44,

Sounds like you're closing in on tight groups. Are you weighing your bullets? That may help a little to tighten groups. Measurements I took on my 458WM indicated that a custom LBT LFN 375 gr bullet was the lightest I could use and still get adequate seating depth/neck grip. Best neck grip, etc., would be a 500 gr. hollowpointed to reduce weight.

Best regards,

CJR

Good stuff there, thanks. It's looking like my 420 grn load is the lightest I can go in this rifle. (at least with the molds I currently own) Seated out to just touch the leade gives me almost exactly 1/4" seating depth. No crimp and a firm, thumb push fit for case neck tension. I have no way to run those through the magazine though. The assembly is just not mechanically strong enough for that journey. Luckily, the CZ will happily single feed directly into the chamber, even though it is primarily a controlled round feed action design. That was the first divergence in loading practice...I needed to load one set of rounds for accuracy and one set for general utility. The next divergence is normal loads and light loads. This is way different than grabbing a box of remchester ammo off the store shelf and banging away. Oh course, the results are quit different as well.

I do weigh and sort my bullets for the accuracy loads. That little evolution is instructive in itself. It sure shows defects that are not visible to the naked eye. I am closing in on an understanding of alloy temp vs. bullet weight as well. It doesn't seem to take much of a variation in the temp of the molten alloy to vary the finished boolit weight. It seems that the boolit weights are pretty stable up to a certain temp and then start getting lighter as molten alloy temp rises; at a certain point the bullet weights start to stabilize again. I see that in the OD of the "as cast" boolits as well. Makes sense if you think about it though. I know that I pay a lot closer attention to the temp of my alloy in the pot now, than when I started out. I try to cast at a temp, about 725-750°F, that gives me good fill out and is as cold as is workable. That's alloy dependent, of course.

Reloading PPCB's really does follow the classic 80/20 rule. You can get 80% of the accuracy and utility out of a particular load with 20% of the total effort. That last 20% of utility and accuracy takes 80% of your effort.

I am on the verge of getting really nit-picky with my 420 grn accuracy loads. I already weigh the bullets and each powder charge. I also check each case with a Wilson case gauge for length and chamber fit. All of my brass is from the same lot, so there is some uniformity to be had there as well. The devil, and the accuracy is in the details. I walk around mumbling about consistency of components and uniformity of process...the cat thinks I'm crazy.

As an aside, the 350 grn loads are really going to be a set of utility loads. Probably three related loads in total. A hunting load, a plinking load and a load for the wife and oldest daughter to shoot. Maybe only two loads...hunting / plinking and estro-load. The wife likes to shoot the 350 grn Trail Boss loads sometimes, just for giggles. That uses a GCCB, and is very mild. The oldest daughter on the other hand is scheming to get this rifle away from me. She has said as much to my face. She will shoot as much of the 350 grn light loads as I will produce. Since I'm switching over to all PPCB's for this rifle she may have to sit down with Dad and build her own ammo to shoot. I don't have time to produce ammo for her and for me.