Has anyone here used an Ammo Load machine?

[Bullwolf]

When I was younger, I used to work as a re-loader for a small company based in the back of a public gun range. We would just recycle range pistol brass mostly, using a few of the full size Dillon progressive presses equipped with case feeders.

The company had a pair of older Ammo Load machines. They looked like this.
http://www.ammoload.com/markIII-tapered.jpg
http://www.ammoload.com/MarkIII-Straight-sm.jpg
I am going to assume that the presses were the The Ammo Load Mark III - Handgun Ammunition Reloader.

I noticed they have a website up.
http://www.ammoload.com/
It was kind of neat to watch the You tube video of the Ammo Load machine in action.


I worked at that range for quite a long time, up until the point where the owner sold the range, along with the reloading business. Since I was the only experienced re-loader they had ever hired, I pretty much got to run the Dillon's full time.

Experience, in this case was defined as having previously used a reloading press.
(For me it was an RCBS Rockchucker press, with the old piggy back conversion)

We had one self proclaimed "expert" who worked there. He was a slightly older gentleman, who happened to live with his mother. He also had a serious problem with the female employees in the company.

He pretty much just would sit around, watch me re-load, and non constructively criticize the other employees.

The boss/owner (who was not a shooter, or re-loader) figured that the gentleman must have known all there was to know about reloading, since he had gray hair, and promoted him to supervisor despite the protests of all the other employees.

I won't go on about his psychological problems, or his horribly slipshod reloading practices. I will say that it was a miracle that he lived to the ripe old age that he managed to achieve. It must be true what they say, God really does look after fools and idiots.

I did my best to keep things flowing safely and reliably. Fortunately the other employees, especially the case sorters and checkers really helped take up a lot of the quality control slack.

For some unknown reason, the guy had a serious problem with the Dillon powder check dies, and all of the Dillon monitoring devices in general. He would disable all the Dillon safety checks, stating they were not necessary.

I shudder to think of how many squib loads slipped past quality control before I started working there. I did hear a few stories when I first started about folks blowing magazines out of the wells on 1911's, while using the range companies own reloads.

Well, more relevant to this post, the guy had serious issues with the Ammo Load machines in general.

He was convinced that the Ammo Load machines were a horrible disaster waiting to happen, and that they required far too much operator time to fix the jams, and all of the other problems that they created. He went so far as to state that they were not worth using.

I am guessing it was because this self proclaimed expert could never get them working reliably on his own.

Consequently, he would not ever let anyone else use the Ammo Load machines.

Sadly the whole time I worked there, they were just expensive yet interesting looking boat anchors. I never got a chance to run one, or see one in action.

I imagine that when the company got sold they were also sold on auction, or something along those lines. Heck, for all I know, they could still in the back room there, and maybe the new range owner inherited them.

Ever since then, I have always wondered about them.

Has anyone here at Cast Boolits ever had any experience using the Ammo Load Mark X Reloading Machines, that they can relate for me?

And

How reliable were they actually?



- Bullwolf

[ReloaderFred]

When I was Rangemaster for our department between 1977 and 1979, one of my duties was to reload all the practice .38 ammunition we used on the range, which was approximately 60,000 rounds per year. I loaded around 200,000 rounds on that machine. We bought our 9mm reloads at the time, since I didn't have time to load those, do the training for the department's 600 sworn Deputies, 300 Reserve Deputies, teach in the academy classes and run the monthly qualifications, all without help.

As for the machine, it would really put out the ammunition when running right. The primer column did blow up on me twice. Once with a full column and once with an almost empty column. That will get your attention really fast, and does cause some damage to the machine, but the blast shields worked as designed, and other than my composure, nothing on me was injured.

At that time, AmmoLoad was in the back of a boat yard in Newport Beach, CA. I took the machine to them to have it repaired, but they said they could have just sent my the parts and I could have fixed it myself. My desire was to have them completely go through the machine and ensure that it wouldn't blow up on me again, which it did, but no damage the second time.

I liked the machine. The case collator was great and I got really good at adding tubes of bullets without stopping the machine. When it was running good, the only time I had to stop was to add more primers and powder.

AmmoLoad has changed hands many times over the years, as have many reloading machine companies. The basic design was a good one, which is why it's still around.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bullwolf]

Thanks ReloaderFred, that was exactly the sort of information that I was looking for.

I had a primer tube go bang (right after I filled it too!) on one of the big Dillon's while loading 9mm.

A single Berdan primed 9x18 Makarov case snuck its way into the case feeder and popped the whole primer tube.

No one was hurt, but spent primers rained down from above, and my long term hearing sure didn't appreciate it one bit.

It will definitely startle you when it happens.

I also remember running a 55 gallon drum full of 44 magnum brass through an old Lee classic single stage press just to re-size it all first, to reduce the effort required to run it all through the progressive Dillon later.

Sometimes I feel like I still have that blister from the Lee wooden ball on my palm.

My memory isn't quite what it used to be, but I think we were using the old RL 1000 Dillon's at the time, but it also could have been the 1050's we were using.

I just don't remember now. I do remember that it took so much arm effort to run 44 Magnum through the Dillon press non lubed, that it was more than worth it to size all the 44 Mag brass separately.


- Bullwolf

[Intel6]

When I was in college in CA I worked for a commercial reloader that had 4 of those machines. We had to contract to load the pratice ammo for LAPD and that was 700,000 rds of .38 special a month. The majority of that was loaded on a single machine that was dedicated to loading that ammo. We had a backup to that and then one in 9mm and one in 45 acp. The main .38 machine ran about 25 days (all day) out of the month and we rarely had any issues witht he machine it self. Whe we had problems it was due to other things like the cases. We had a cae checker but sometimes a bad case still got through and that would cause problems. I ran smaller lots (a few thousand) of ammo on the .45 acp machine and I also ran some large batches (30, 000) on the 9mm machines.

From my prespective, I saw lots of ammo loaded on those machines and from what I saw, reliability was good.

[ReloaderFred]

Ron Gromak, in Santa Maria, had several of the AmmoLoad machines, but he modified his to run faster. He even machined in zerks on the outside of the machines so he could lube them while they were running. The guy who owned AmmoLoad at the time told me he was amazed when he went to Ron's shop and saw how his machines were running.

We bought our .38 bullets from Ron for our machine. He had some of the most accurate swaged bullets around, at good prices. I wish I had a truck load of his bullets now.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[W.R.Buchanan]

I saw this machine at the SHOT Show last and this year both. I used to design and build automated machines so this was very interesting to me.

I think this outfit is now owned by this outfit, http://www.advengsys.com/inline_loader.aspx Which is an automation company pure and simple doing many different types of automation.

The machine in the video is slightly different looking from the older machines, however it works pretty much the same way, and runs at 50rnds pe rminute or 100 with dual tooling.

They have a rotary machine which runs at 250rnds per minute.

You could go into business with a few of these, but the liability ins would certainly kill a small operation. I'd love to do it, but the back side would prevent me fosho!

Randy

[mactool]

there is also the camdex loaders http://www.camdexloader.com/2100Pistol.aspx#

[cajun shooter]

As Mactool stated above, this machine appears to be a copy of the Camdex that I loaded on in the 80's-90's for our Sheriffs Office. I loaded many a thousand of rounds on that machine. We ordered our 38 special bullets from Speer that came ready to be loaded in the machine by being packed in the long plastic tubes. I too loaded and added tubes with the machine running. The primer bar could and did go off once in a while but the machine had a steel tube over the primer tube for safety. I was happy that is was there. The ceiling had plenty of shrapnel holes to show what happened. If you kept the machine clean and oiled correctly it was a true beast. Thousands of rounds in one day was easy. But while loading for a 600 man department keep me busy it was not that bad. You had a speed control that was so fast that you could turn it high enough to cause a train wreck. The new camdex look nothing like the model I used but it was made in the 70's.

[LUBEDUDE]

So, has anyone looked into pricing of any of the three units discussed ?

I'm just curious what a machine like this costs.

[kmag]

Bought one new in 1970-71 was about 5200. That was on a municipal bid, might have been lower than retail. I owned a very simular loader at one time. It was built in the late 50's at a company in Hollywood Calif. It was old and worn when I got it and I was told it would go out of time, whatever that was supposed to tell me. I got the thing running and thought I was doing well. It was spposed to be capable of producing up to 5000 rounds per hour. It was fed by cases and boolits that were put into long metal tubes. Zero bullits would ship bullits in cardboard tubes that would also fit the machine. Thought I was in high cotton when I got it going and kept turning up the speed when suddenly the cam or whatever it was that moved the metal plates to push the case from one station to the next went out of time. Messed up a ton of cases and boolits before I could get it stopped. The company that had made it was no longer in busness. I took it to several people that worked on machinery but none could help me. Sold it several years later to a guy in Virginia who I told about the problems but he wanted it anyway. I don't think I ever got it to run over about 400 rounds before it would crush a ton of components. Also bought an electric boolit sizer with it that really worked well. It also used the metal tubes to feed it. but it was made to only size 148 button nose wad cutters. Sold the sizer with the press only thing I kept and still have is two 10 cav H&G wad cutter molds.

[LUBEDUDE]

Interesting story Kmag. Thank you

Makes me think that a new modern one may be 25-30k ?

[Artful]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LsiscYhujA

Rifle one just south of 50K as I recall - Camdex also makes a similar machine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7t7jelgHd4
in slow mo no less

I had a friend who ran one - let me tell you it got exciting when a bit of junk got in the primer seater station and then started setting off each primer - would always wear my hearing protection when I was in there after that. When they are working right they are awsome - all I ever did was help out feeding cases and bullets for it (dump in a hopper).

[JIMinPHX]

I always thought that the automated machines roll sized the cases. These machines are recips. I guess that you learn something new every day.

[ReloaderFred]

The AmmoLoad uses a sizing die just like a single stage press. In fact, almost all the dies were similar to single stage dies, with the exception of the powder check die, which would shut down the machine if the charge wasn't within the parameters set for that particular load.

It's a great machine when running correctly. It was no problem to produce 1,500+ rounds an hour when it was running right, including stops for replenishing primers and powder. When it's not running right, it will give you gray hair, though.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[MikeS]

Fred, there is a powder check die that will stop the press. I think it's made by either RCBS, or Redding, I can't remember. I saw it on Midway's website, and I have no idea how a die can make a press stop, but it does supposedly.

[Emerson]

The first Ammoloads were built in 1968. The current model is the Mark X. Mechanically it is very similar to the original machines but there have been s number of significant improvements.

The original machines up thru the Mark 3 machines had cast heads, aluminum frames, and AC drives. The Mark IV's & Mark X's have forged heads, steel frames, and the Mark X's have DC drives. In addition the newer machines use rotary case and bullet collators rather than the vibratory case feeders and bullet tubes. The machines with these upgrades can routinely produce 100,000 rounds a week.

Black Hills manufactures all of their ammunition on Ammoloads.

The new machines are very well built. It does require a skilled operator to really get the most out of one of these machines due to the fact that so many different things are all happening at the same time.

Mechanically the machines are not overly complicated but they do require a mechanically inclined operator. The quality of ammunition they produce is as good as any other production ammo, and as good as all but the best of handloads.

I have a couple of them and would like to get at least one more. New Mark X's cost around $20,000 without all the whistles and bells but used ones turn up occasionally for way less. If anyone knows where any are for sale please let me know.

If you have any other questions I will be happy to answer if I can.

Best regards

Emerson

[MattOrgan]

I worked with a commercial reloader in the early 80s . We both had our own businesses but did alot of work for each other. I began by loading all of the rifle ammunition and he did the handgun. Initially we both had a Star with Hulme case feeders and a Dillon RL 1000. He purchased a used Ammoload III set up for 38 Special. The learning curve with that machine was steep. But once you learned how to use it, it was an amazing machine. Federal pistol primers were not good in the machine. The sympathetic detonations were startling and made your ears ring. Really ring. Two things caused problems with the machine. The first was any foreign material that a case would bring in. Rocks, any case nested in a 38 case, or a 9mm case itself. The other was not removing dust. Primer dust, brass dust etc. We started trying to control this with compressed air. This made it worse. The solution was a shop vac. You stayed real busy. The coolest thing was the Ammoload primer tube filler, dump the primers in the top and it filled tubes fast.
We cleaned our cases in an electric cement mixer and corn cob media. The morning would start by filling bullet tubes (this guy had a magma bullet casting machine and an automated Star sizer) Load 15 to 20,000 38 Special 158 gr SWC rounds. Spend the afternoon at the Ammoload inspection table and packaging the ammunition. This was at the time law enforcement was switching to the 9x19 and the Ammoload machines didn't have a good reputation loading 9mm.We slowly stopped producing 38s. Started loading 9mm on the Dillon RL 1000. Federal primers detonated in there Dillon too, doing more damage expanding the brass primer feed tube so tight you couldn't remove it from the outer stainless safety tube. Why were we still using Federal primers? Sometimes they were all we could get in lots of 100,000 or more. Winchester primers were the preferred primer. We loaded so many 9mmpeople rounds that we wore out two machines,. They were sent to Dillon for rebuilding. The 1050 came out during this time. It was never half the machine the 1000 was. After cleaning the 9mm cases we lubed them in the cement mixer by saturating a small rag with Breakfree. This made the tapered case easier to size and the sizer dies lasted longer
By the way Lee 9mm sizer dies lasted the longest and thei one piece decapping rods caused very few problems compared to any other maker. I'd love to have that old Ammoload today. It was an amazing machine.

[elk hunter]

Matt;

I never ran an Ammolaod, I had and still have a Camdex that I loaded 38's with. I had one primer detonation in something like one million rounds and that was probably with Winchester primers. The only primers I had real problems with was Remington. I wholesaled about 50,00 of them to get rid of them as they didn't work well in my machines. I agree the Dillon 1050 isn't as good as the 1000, I still have one each of them. I always said that if the 1000 sold for $1000 each I would have had a whole bunch of them. I have quite a few worn out 223 sizing dies that were used on the two Dillons. I switched to the Dillon carbide 223 sizing dies, but if you missed lubing a case you were in trouble as the carbide insert would pull out of the steel shell when you extracted the stuck case.

I don't miss reloading on that scale at all. It's a lot more fun doing it for ones own use.

[slide]

Same story here as most of the guys. My department had one. The Captain in charge of the range ran it 95% of the time. He let me try several times but I would just screw it up. Cap could crank out a lot of ammo with that thing. We loaded 38 special 148 grain wadcutters with 2.7 bullseye. I don't remember what primers we used but had no explosions. I was a patrolman then and my main job was to gopher.

[MattOrgan]

Elk Hunter,

I'd forgotten about sucking the carbide insert out of a Dillon die.Only had to do that once to realize they weren't much of a bargain. Winchester and Federal primers were the only types that would feed and function in the Dillons and Ammoload. Remington and CCI not so much. I was always disappointed that CCI primers didn't work well because I grew up about 30 minutes from the plant in Lewiston, ID. I agree that commercial reloading and casting takes all the fun out of loading and casting. Load testing took most of the fun out of shooting too. I still have my 1000, but its not even mounted on a bench. I haven't even used my old Dillon 450 for for 5 or more years. Pretty nice loading with my Rockchucker and a scale now. Thanks for dredging up a few more memories.

Matt

[Emerson]

Actually CCI primers are all I use in my Ammoloads. I have never had a problem with them.

[Vanniek71]

I know this is an old thread, but the company i work at has 2 of these machines, and one more on order. Thus far the jams have turned all my hair gray.


If anyone has a good working knowledge of these machines and what might fix some of the issues I am experiencing, could you PM me please so I could chat with you a bit? I would greatly appreciate it!

[Lloyd Smale]

with one of them and two bikini clad hotties. One to load my ar mags and one to bring me a cold one Id be in heaven!!