45-70, 500g,5477/RL7, hangfires????

[rbertalotto]

Today I went to the range with my Sharps and my Winchester 1885 HW......500grain cast (Lyman 125 and Postel)....23-26g of both RL7 and 5477..........CCI200 primers.

In both rifles I experienced a few handfires. Kind of like shooting a flint-lock rifle....

One cartridge failed to go bang altogether.

I tilted each cartridge vertical and carefully loaded into the rifle in an attempt to keep the powder down near the primer.........I did not use any fillers.

Maybe I need magnum primers?

Suggestions?

[Wayne Smith]

Very little powder in a very large case. I'd go with a very much slower powder.

[onondaga]

5744 is advertised as a powder that is not position sensitive. However when you go below recommended charges you forfeit that benefit from the manufacturer. Actually Rel#7 is even less forgiving in that circumstance.

You have a couple of options I could recommend. If you really want to shoot that low of a velocity, IMR trail boss would be a better selection. It quick burns in a flash and very small charges will ignite less problematically, but after capacity load level with Trail Boss, pressures skyrocket.

Filler use with the low charges of Rel#7 and 5744 work very well with my .458 Win Mag that is even larger in airspace than a 47-70 with loads under recommendations.

Filler is not tricky at all if you do the math and keep it safe. I use BPI Original filler a lot. Others will use Dacron and have good luck also. The BPI is a ground high heat plastic particulate filler that meters well with scoops or my Lyman #55.

Here is my easy method:

Determine the volume in cc of your case that is left at the bullet seating depth you use. As an example say it is 5 cc .

Determine the volume in cc of the charge you will be using. say it is 2 cc.

You will need the difference or 3cc of the BPI filler to get 100% density loading.

Weigh the 3cc of filler, as an example it will weigh 15 grains.

To determine if your load is safe in pressure add the 15 grains of filler weight to your bullet weight and consult a loading manual to see if the new total projectile weight is safe in pressure with your charge. Very likely it will be with reduced loads.

The BPI is very easily compressible so I usually do the math for a 105% capacity load and there will be no shifting or mixing of the filler and powder in the case.

I have fired over 2,000 reduced loads with BPI filler in my .458 WM using the 105% capacity loadings with that filler and reduced charges with zero hang fires, misfires or squibb rounds. I began using the BPI because I had the same difficulties as you with the very same two powders in my .458 WM. Now I can use either of them safely.

Be Safe and do the math. ALSO NOTE: this filler is recommended as a ballistic filler for straight walled cartridges only and not for bottle neck cartridges.

My BPI original source:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=695248

Gary

[bullshot]

rbertalotto
For what it's worth, I've shot hundreds of 45-70 loads in both my Sharps and Roller with 25gr 5744 behind the 405 gr and a Win LR primer. Never had a hang fire or failure to fire. Any chance you had some contamination in the loads? Handle the primers with any type of oil or bullet lube. I use a lot of 5744 in big bore black powder ctgs with no problems, not just 45-70

[Doc Highwall]

I have used a lot of 5744 in my 45-70 about 25 grains or 29 grains in my 45-90 and I have never had a problem.

[rbertalotto]

Great suggestions........Thanks!

It just dawned on me. I did something different in my reloading routine at 4:30am this morning (my usual reloading time......nice and quiet and no disturbances). Usually I use One Shot spray case sizing lube. I lay my cases on a cookie sheet and spray with one shot. Then I resize and bell the cases. Next I lay them on an old towel and spray with alcohol and rub the "primer-less" cases with another old towel to remove all the lube. This morning, for whatever reason, I primed the cases before I gave them the alcohol spray. I wonder if some got into the cases and damaged the primers? Could be!

I still like the idea of using something to hold the powder against the primer.

Some folks report excellent results with a simple piece of toilet paper and others use some type of cream or wheat or other "food stuff". I would use the polymer shot buffer recommended by Gary above. Reading the description of this material simply makes the most sense.

I need to state what the purpose of this exercise was. To reproduce BP velocity with 500-530 grain cast boolits. My 1885 was grouping very poorly with faster loads. Although the Sharps shoots anything I load into it with simply amazing accuracy. The Winchester with it's fancy Badger barrel can't hold a candle to the Sharps or to my Marlin 1885 with a 24" octagon factory barrel. Yet! I'm not giving up on it.

BTW, the 500 grain Lyman XXX125 bullets did show great promise today in the 1885, even with the hang fires!

More testing needed.............more comments still appreciated........

[geargnasher]

If you want BP velocity and trajectory, you might do it with Trail Boss and lighter boolits, but I doubt you'll get there at sane pressures with the 500+ grain boolits. I've never had a single lick of trouble using 25 to 44 grains of RX7 in 45/90 with the same two boolit designs, and that case is .300" longer. Difference is, I used Dacron. About a grain of it in my case, fluffed up to extend between the powder charge and the base of the boolit.

Between RX7 and XMP5744, You will get the most velocity with the lowest pressure and the lightest recoil with RX7, so that would be my first choice, WITH DACRON. If I wasn't going to use a filler, I'd use Unique as a powder.

Gary gave some pretty good advice above with the BPI Original Shot Buffer as a filler, or I'd say even Cream-o-Wheat if you don't store it for long periods of time before shooting. BPI also makes a non-compacting buffer that they recommend and instruct to use as a case filler that would work too, all good solutions to ignition consistency and boolit base protection.

Gear

[MtGun44]

I've had two FTF with normal charges of RL7 in .45-70 405gr Pb GC. Boolit pushed slightly
into the throat, powder all crispy and melted partially. Stopped using RL-7 in that caliber
regardless of anyone else's good results. NEVER got one single "really good" group from
3/4 lb of RL-7 run down range in my 1895 Marlin. I know other folks have had good results,
but I don't intend to play in that particular game any more.

Limited experience with 5744 has all been good.

Bill

[rbertalotto]

Sorry to hear about your RL7 experience. I use it in many rifles from 17Mk4, 221FB, 222 and in my 1895 Marlin in 45-70 it is the most accurate powder with 405g bullets by far.

[Larry Gibson]

I still like the idea of using something to hold the powder against the primer.

........

I'm going to suggest a simple filler using dacron (polyester). A 1 gr filler of dacron will do nicely for either load of 5744 or RL7. There is a sticky titled "Fillers" on one of these forums, lots of good info there on what you need.

Larry Gibson

[gasboffer]

I had the same problem. You can use magnum primers and or something to hold the powder against the primer, or both.
Clyde

[MtGun44]

I get top notch results and low pressures from Win 748 under either Jbullet or boolit in
405 wt. in my Marlin 95.

Bill

[rbertalotto]

There seems to be a theme in these comments, but not the correct answer. Folks on this thread and others always comment on a great load for 385-430g lead bullets and usually these are being fired out of a Marlin. My experience is it is hard to find a BAD load combination when shooting 400-425g boolits. Especially out of a recent Marlin.

My 1895 Marlin in 45-70 is simply one of the most accurate "big bore" rifles I own with just about any combination of powder and boolit in that range.

My Pedersoli Sharps shoots these boolits well, but not as well as it shoots 500-530g boolits...........and this is the problem. I need a good smokeless, 1300fps load that can be shot in a 45-70 case that doesn't hang fire, have extreme velocity spread and is accurate out to 500 yds. I know, I know....Go Black Powder. I've shot Goex Cartridge and Elephant FFg. Both are VERY accurate. But I simply don't want to shoot BP at this point.

The Winchester 1885 BPCR doesn't shoot ANYTHING well.......Smokeless, BP, 400g, 500g.......nothing! Can't get it under 5" at 100 yds WITH A SCOPE!

The search continuuuuuuuuuuus...............

[Doc Highwall]

rbertalotto, who's scope do you have on the rifle.? It is very easy to think that the scope is good because the view through it is sharp and clear when in reality it will not hold it's point of impact.
The recoil could be too much for the scope. Have you had this scope on another gun of similar recoil to prove it does not change point of impact? The reason I ask is I have had a target scope change point of impact with a rifle that had more recoil then a 22Lr.

[rbertalotto]

I agree completely about the scope possible being the issue. I am ultimatly replacing it with a Malcolm 6X (Which just arrived a couple minutes ago!) But for load testing I'll replace the current Burris scope with another known good unit.

Stay tuned

[onondaga]

Quote"The Winchester 1885 BPCR doesn't shoot ANYTHING well.......Smokeless, BP, 400g, 500g.......nothing! Can't get it under 5" at 100 yds WITH A SCOPE!"

That is sad, I would be very unhappy if a rifle of mine did that to me. I would not give up. My next effort would be firelapping and bore polishing, then slugging the bore again to choose a bullet diameter.

Gary

[MtGun44]

Scope or scope mounting should be the first suspect.
Try a few iron sight groups.

Bill