loads for a Browning Hi wall TH

[65panman]

I'm a new guy to the BPCR.
I bought a Browning Hi Wall Traditional Hunter, in 45-70. A 1998 model.
I'm also new to boolit casting, and reloading. I know, here's a greenhorn, let's play with him for awhile!
Wondering if any body with a similar rifle, would have a decent load, to start with?
Looks like the boolit to use would be a Lyman 457125?
With a twist rate of 1/12, would the gun shoot better with a light boolit, or a heavy boolit?
Right now, I'm more interested in offhand shooting, at closer range's.
I'm thinking if I got into long range shooting I'd need a different rifle, which would also mean a different cartridge?
Thanks
Jim

[montana_charlie]

Looks like the boolit to use would be a Lyman 457125?
If you don't own the mould yet, it would be a good idea to buy some bullets of two or three styles ... to try out in your rifle.

With a twist rate of 1/12, would the gun shoot better with a light boolit, or a heavy boolit?
If that is true, you would be looking at a very heavy bullet.
But, I don't think 1 in 12 is correct for that rifle.

It is probably 1 in 18, or possibly as slow as 1 in 20 inches.

If true, standard bullet designs between 400 and 550 grains will work for you.

CM

[Bullshop]

You will find lots of 45/70 Browning owners here with both 1885 and 1886 rifles.
I personally have never seen a bad one and I have seen or had many. They all have shot good.
I think you may have made a mistake on the twist there. You said 12" but I think it will be 18". The 18" will handle anything you could conceivably want to shoot in it up to approaching 600gn depending on the design.
The Hunter model being lighter than the long range model may be a deciding factor in your boolit choice due to recoil.
If you only going to shoot moderate range say less than 500 yards you can do well with a lighter boolit than the 457125. That one will go 520 to 530gn depending on alloy.
I dont think you mentioned weather you will use black or smokeless powder and that will be a factor in deciding boolit design. BP designs will carry more lube than smokeless designs. Then there is the GC or non/GC thingy to decide, that and hunting or non hunting nose shape. Wow this is beginning to sound complicated. Not to worry though it is not ist just my inability to communicate well.
Anyway when you narrow those things down I bet you will get lots of advice.
I will give you one load that has been working for the better part of a century in the 45/70, 400gn ish boolits and 24gn 2400. I like it because its easy to remember, shoots good if boolit fits, and is safe in all rifle types.
Now another bit of wisdom from a 45/70 FREAK. Even though you are now setting your sights at moderate range once you master that you will point it at farther and farther targets.
Oh BTW a load I like for a trap door and is working very well for me to 500 yards is,
Lee 405gn hb
RP brass
WLP primer
30gn Reloader #7
Remainder of case volume filled with packing popcorn and compressed with boolit.
The TD should be on par in weight with your TH model so recoil should be about the same which is not too bad with the steel butt on a Springfield TD.
Enjoy and have fun on your journey!

[Lead pot]

I would go with the .485 gr flat nose.
I have shot that .485 all the way to 850 yards that is all my mid range sights will go up to.
It might not be the pretty bullet that some of the more long nosed slender ones out there but it wont take the back seat to any of them for accuracy in a .45-70.

[ph4570]

I use H4198 in my 1885 Browning BPCR 45-70 with good results. My load ( work up your own for best results) is 29 grains with a 420 grain boolit from an Accurate brand three hole mold. It is an easy shooting load. Vel is likely around 1200 fps. Got back from the range about an hour ago. Two ten shot groups at 100 yds around 1.5" with peep sight. I am sure the gun and load will do consistent sub 1 moa at 100 yds, i.e. I am the variable that widens it out to 1.5".

[65panman]

My rifle is not the black powder only model, so yes I could shoot smokeless, but I don't want to. I want to shoot blackpowder, so I can smell like rotten eggs and get grubby!
I have a number of muzzleloaders, and get a kick out of a big cloud of smoke.
So, I'm looking for a blackpowder load for my rifle?
Thanks again
Jim

[Yellowhouse]

Crescent buttplate and 500 gr plus bullets............yeowch!

[Southern Son]

Mate, I ain't seen a Traditional Hunter HiWall, but the way everyone is talking, it is a little on the light side. If you already have the 457125 mould, then you can use it with BP no worries. You will need you boolits to be lubed with a BP lube.

As for a load, any large rifle primer, with 60-65 grains (by weight) of any FFg powder. Compress the powder far enough so that you can seat the boolit to the over all length you want.

In my Spagetti HiWall with a Green Mountain Barrel I load 80gr Wano FFg under a 530grain Creedmore Boolit. That boolit is tapered so most of it is up in the barrel and only 2 driving bands are inside the case. I make my own BP lube and aswell as lube the boolit, I will usualy put a lube cookie in the case with the wads.

Unfortunately, BPCR is a game that you will have to fool around with to find what your rifle likes. No one load will shoot well in all rifles. Start with about 60grains and work up, try different wads and lubes, and eventually, you will end up like everyone else arounds here. Badly hooked on shooting BPCR and looking at everything you see wondering if it will make a good ingredient in lube or good wad material.

Enjoy.

[NickSS]

If you are just starting in the BPCR game there are a few things to know as follows:
1. Your bullets should be soft like 20-1 or 30-1 alloy or if you use wheel weights cast then al least 50-50 with soft lead.
2. Size the bullets from groove diameter up to .002" over groove diameter.
3. Lube with black powder lube (SPG or some other soft lube with no petrolium products in it).
4. Fill your primed cases to at least the full seating depth of the bullet (no air space). You should find out the seating depth for your bullet by making a dummy round and gradually seat the bullet deeper until in makes contact with the lands and the action just closes.
5. Use a wad between the base of the bullet and powder. The wad can be most any type of card or milk carton material. Lots of serious BPCR shooters use .030 or >060 Vegitable fiber wads or poly wads.
6. To find a load that your rifle likes make up 50 rounds of ammo in lots of 10 rounds. The first lot should be minimal compression. The next should add more powder to allow for about .1" compression, next lot .2 inch compression, next .3" compression and the last lot .4" compression. For the heavier compressed loads it is best to do this with a compression die or you can buy a compression plug to fit your expander die from buffalo arms co.

Go to the range and shoot your ammo in lots of 10 rounds cleaning between each 10 shots. You will find one lot that performs better than the others. You can then use that load to adjust up and down a couple of grains to refine the load for your rifle. This is the quickest way I know how to work up a load that will give good performance. BTW record the powder weight for each increment untill you have your load then record that load too.

[McLintock]

With a Traditional Hunter, as has been pointed out, you're fighting light weight for those 500+ grain bullets and 60-70 grs of BP. I'd stick with a 400 gr'er and a good one to try is the group buy mould on this forum with the gas check design. Gas checks aren't legal in NRA BPCR but if you just want to get your feet wet with black powder and a single shot, they are easy to load and shoot very well with BP. Once you get used to loading BP, then switch to a plain base bullet and wads, but if you're going into Silhouette, you'll also be getting a better rifle to boot. Just my 2 cents.
McLintock

[Gunlaker]

I've got one of those Traditional Hunters in .45-70. I use mine mostly for 100m off hand practice shooting. It has a 1 in 20 twist and likes 405 gr bullets. I imagine I could go up to 500gr with that twist, but the 405gr bullets suit my purpose for this rifle. The crescent butt plate definitely helps for off hand shooting.

Chris.

[Black Prince]

Load 12 grains of unique under a 300 grain bullet and shoot it. It won't hurt you, and it is accurate. Once you get a little of that down as experience, try other loads, either smokeless or black powder, with that bullet to get the "feel" for what it will do. Whatever you do, unless you just want to hurt yourself, DO NOT use any of the heavier bullets (the 405 grain bullet is as heavy as I would go) with stout loads in that light rifle with that butt plate. That is a nice little hunting and light target rifle, but it is NOT intended for the heavy bullet, heavy loads used in Silloutte or long range shooting. If you want to do that, get a BPCR. I used that 12 grains of Unique and the 300 grain bullet in schulzen matches and it worked very well for me all the way out to the 200 yard targets. Use a 5/8 square by 1/4 deep piece of dacron (available at most sewing shops) over the powder and tamp it down with a pencil using the eraser end (or something similar) to keep the powder against the primer. You can go up to 15 grains of Unique with that bullet, but I found no accuracy advantage doing that. Good luck with your Browning TH. It is a nice little rifle and you will enjoy it if you don't try to make a buffalo rifle out of it. If you try that, you are going to know what it feels like getting stomped on by a buffalo.

[Mumblypeg]

Hey Black Prince! Glad to see you back.

[65panman]

Thanks for all of the input.
Now I have a starting point, and a method, should be able to make the gun shoot.
Jim

[Black Prince]

Hey Black Prince! Glad to see you back

Thanks Mumble. I missed you too. Now that Brent is gone, it is safe to come out.

[doubs43]

I own two Traditional Hunter rifles; 38-55 & 45-70. Unless the crescent buttplate is positioned correctly on your shoulder, even the 38-55 can punish the shooter. The rifles are fairly light and recoil from the 45-70 can be stout depending upon the load. Those advocating 405 grain boolits as a maximum are pretty much on the money.

The Traditional Hunter is a high quality rifle and mine are accurate. However, I wouldn't even consider shooting a 500 grain boolit in them.

[texasmac]

For what it's worth, every Browning or the more recent Winchester Traditional Hunter rifles I've run across has a twist rate of 1:20.

Wayne

[bigted]

I'm a new guy to the BPCR.
I bought a Browning Hi Wall Traditional Hunter, in 45-70. A 1998 model.
I'm also new to boolit casting, and reloading. I know, here's a greenhorn, let's play with him for awhile!
Wondering if any body with a similar rifle, would have a decent load, to start with?
Looks like the boolit to use would be a Lyman 457125?
With a twist rate of 1/12, would the gun shoot better with a light boolit, or a heavy boolit?
Right now, I'm more interested in offhand shooting, at closer range's.
I'm thinking if I got into long range shooting I'd need a different rifle, which would also mean a different cartridge?
Thanks
Jim


:drinks:...first off welcome to the forum and congrats on a very nice rifle. i have your rifle and if yours has the crescent plate here is what i did to overcome the sharp points...i glued a bit of dense foam that i had ground to fit the curve and be flat on the but end. i then ordered a lace up pad from track of the wolf and installed it for a kinda original look and also lengthening the length of pull for my longer arms.

here is my bp experience in a nutshell so far with this rifle...all winter i fired at 50 yds and thinking i had narrowed down the 68 gr load that would cut one hole groups for me as long as i wiped between shots at the 50 yards. this spring i finally got to go and try her at 1 , 2 , and 300 yards and figured that all was going to be just a sighting option with the different yardage.......NOPE!!! couldnt get groups smaller then 5 inches at 100 yds. very disappointing i started to begin anew with my loads to discover why the blown groups at the additional 50 yds...still being disappointing with my personal success. i then swithed to jacketed bullets [Remington 405gr] and loaded with the 68 gr loads with the 1/8th felt wad over powder...still dismal except that if i swabbed and cleaned with bore-butter between shots i could get around 2 to 3 inch groups. i then switched to rl-7 powder and tried this with the 405's and shrank groups to around 2 inches...still not too grand for my expectations.

at this time i purchased some factory rem 405 loaded ammo and installed a scope [ Leopold 6 to 18] to see what was going on and BINGO i started to get the 1.5 inch groups i would accept as the outside size for what i expected.

back to the loading bench with the rl-7 and this time i loaded 34 gr with corn meal filler to hold it rite on the large rifle primer and with trepidation i again went to the range...walla the 1 and 1.5 gr groups came my way but with jacketed bullets and the hated smokeless powder.

long stories short [ i know huh...too late] i then returned to basics of discovery and reading all my notes and with a little deduction i think i know what is going on...in looking at the groves and lands of the barrel as well as the slug i pounded thru rite after i got the rifle i see that the rifling is only around .00257 inch deep. thinking thru this and remembering the stuff i read here i deducted that the bp was fouling the grooves and keeping the cast boolits from grabbing hard enough to twist enough to stabilize the boolits...being the 520 Lyman or the 418 Lyman of the rcbs 500's. nothing worked and i shoot the 457125 Lyman in my browning bprc rifle with .00379 deep grooves and i get bp groups with that rifle in the 1 inch range at the 100 yard mark.

all in all have fun with your discovery's with this dandy hunting rifle and i hope you bundle the curve [ sexy tho it is ] so it imparts no pain from a hasty shot.