.475 brass tension

[44man]

I shot the 5 worst today at 50 yards. 3 were looser but pretty even and they are in the top hole that looks like 2 shots.
Then a tighter one went a little lower and finally the tightest one went even lower.
I was surprised such a span of tension did not go crazy like in the .44 that can give a 10" span.
Need some help here! It seems that the larger calibers are less affected. More experimenting needs done.
It would be great to see tension differences between the .357 up to the .500's.

[Bass Ackward]

You need to think. Neck tension required is primer specific. Another way of saying this, neck tension determines the primer choice. Another way is that neck tension determines primer performance. All are the same.

Primer requirement is a factor of powder and case volume and bullet weight, case anneal, etc. Right up until you obtain more ignition than needed. That's why you see some value to magnum primers at some point.

Take 357 with 15.5 grains of H-110 / 158 grain. (max for extraction) Load with Lee dies (.002 tension) and Magnum primers just ring the bell. Load with my RCBS dies (.004) and magnums spread all over the paper. But of the two primer types, the H-110 in the Lee dies is the most accurate. (in the 4" gun)

The slower the powder, the less the percentage of error made by all variables. Or all variables are minimized in importance until the powder speed gets so slow that you go too far under ignition again. The larger the case capacity (that NOT filled by bullet) and bore diameter, the less percentage error obtained until an over bore condition is created. (talking straight cases here, so this is not practically reached. You do get less and less flexibility on powder usage finally getting down to only one powder that will perform.)

All of this assumes case neck tension is sufficient to prevent bullet pull.

There are more variables like throat diameter which all get lumped into gun specific. My 4" Smith likes H-110 but my 5 1/2" and 8 3/8ths just want 2400.

So the question becomes, are the larger bore / larger cases more accurate? Or do they just minimize loading variables and gun to gun issues?

Do some people have trouble with faster for caliber powders for this reason? :grin: If I load with my RCBS dies I do. If I load with my Lee dies, I don't.

[44man]

I am thinking larger diameter cases do have less affect with tension differences.
Primers ARE important but the larger .475 case needs the LP mag primer, all others open groups.
You say your longer barrel Smiths want 2400 over H110 but have you tested 296? There is a difference! Yes, there really is.
The same as the SBH and SRH will shoot better with 296 but the RH loves H110.
You need to remember that tension differences affect velocity and tighter will be faster so they hit lower. Should I have pulled the boolits and changed primers? I hardly think so.
Can I make an estimate as to where a tight tension hits compared to lighter tension? YEP, easy, smeesey.
Do larger chambers change anything? Not to my knowledge and to use a different powder for different chambers is beyond our scope.
Either way, you need to get well below 1" at 50 yards to see a difference. This revolver will do 5/8" and under at 50 yards and has done under 1" at 100 so it is easy to read shots. Vision is the limit so I need to hold a good picture. But I can call anything I do wrong.
The point being, nobody can change components to match case tension. That is final, the boolit is last to go in and will not be pulled to change a primer or powder charge. My hat fits one way! :brokenima Pull a boolit and the case needs sized and expanded again and that will change everything again.
I showed a difference with my first three shots in 5/16" and as brass got tighter, hits were lower. You must explain how I could have eliminated those and corrected them other then to aim higher for each or just shot them for fun.
Tell us a powder or primer change is the answer! 8-)

[Bass Ackward]

How popular are wadcutters in calibers as bore diameter increases?
How are wadcutters seated to handle low pressure conditions.
Does lower case capacity also increase neck tension?

Case neck tension is but a single tool in load balance. As it changes, other things must change. If it were simply a matter of spinning a bullet up to match the twist rate, then any powder / primer combination that achieved a velocity of " X " would be just as accurate.

You like to focus in on detail as opposed to see the big picture, so it is harder to see. All the variables I mentioned and more (my list was just to get you to thinking) work into achieve "best accuracy" what ever that is.

Case, brass, or which powder, primer, neck tension create ignition. Bullet hardness, lube, diameter, heat are gun. What you are trying to do is create balance that results in reproducibility. Large chambers or throats are factors relative to bullet diameter only in how fast seal is established as this affects pressure thus powder burn rate.

Ignition (balance) + Gun (balance just before leading begins) = Accuracy

Case volume builds inflexibility that shows up in shorter barrels first. How many powders work in 45-70 with a 10" barrel? How many more work just as well in a 20" barrel?

Does the 20" barrel show the sensitivity to case neck tension or other load variables that the short barrel does? :grin:

[44man]

You go too deep over a simple problem Bass! I am believing case DIAMETER has more bearing on even tension, not capacity.
As my cases get larger in diameter, I have less variations in groups, the .45 is better then the .44, the .475 is better yet and the .500's better again.
It is EVEN tension, not just tighter that counts and that is 100% a brass problem, not a load problem. While it is true going to a faster powder or quicker ignition can negate some tension problems, it is not the answer. I make what I use work instead of trying to use a different powder or primer to side step tension.
I don't know how a wad cutter even enters this question. Those present forcing cone entry problems.
Now look at my 45-70 revolver with a 10" barrel. One powder works best but I can ignore tension. The only problem is getting a charge to burn in the short barrel from a large case. The next is to prevent thump on the boolit so Unique, 2400, etc just does not work. If I sat you at my bench and set up a 1" target at 100 yards, you would take it off the rail. I have solved the gun with any boolit and it will beat a 20" barrel rifle all day at any distance. It beats a 34" barrel too. I have shot too many 1/2" groups at 50 yards to change powder or primers. And tension means much less in a rifle. Does a 45-70 case relieve tension problems? I don't know for sure but it has been no problem at all.
Go down to a .41, .357 and maybe tension will change more so we need some testing done. I do not own any of them so instead of working around the problem, how about seating pressure tests to see if brass is different with an accurate load instead of changing the load?
Shooting IHMSA gave me accuracy that I would not part with by changing my loads but tension was a problem that I cured with the .44. If you told me to go to Unique, I would love to see you hit 40 targets to 200 meters.
Thinking at the bench pays off but you just go too far with theory.
Bass, you think too much and it is not practical! :violin:

[Bass Ackward]

You go too deep over a simple problem Bass! Thinking at the bench pays off but you just go too far with theory. Bass, you think too much and it is not practical! :violin:


<<Need some help here! It seems that the larger calibers are less affected. More experimenting needs done. It would be great to see tension differences between the .357 up to the .500's. >>

Yes larger calibers will show less critical need to neck tension but more to powder selection. Why do you think shoulders and necks were eventually added to cases shapes?

Yes shooting heavier bullets adds inertia to neck tension equation.

Yes primer choice is affected by the choice of neck tension.

Yes longer barrels mitigate variables.

Yes slower powders work if they can provide critical "correct" ignition.

There, that aught to stop you from asking more questions that will require detailed theory answers. Go experiment.

here is one. Take a primed case with no powder and place a quarter on the muzzle with the gun held vertically. Set off the primer and watch how high the coin goes. Do that with each caliber handgun and you will see primer power diminish in the larger volume cases / bores. That should show you "the need" for neck tension is minimized by volume. The old tractor tire / bicycle tire analogy.

I just told you why so you could come to that yourself so maybe you would remember it next time.

[subsonic]

I will try to get some .357s on paper using a seating tension arm. Just can't find any dang 1/8" spring steel rod locally! Have also been busy at the range and at home getting my step-son ready for NRA YHEC competition coming up in 2 weeks! If it isn't for the last minute.. nothing gets done around here!

[44man]

<<Need some help here! It seems that the larger calibers are less affected. More experimenting needs done. It would be great to see tension differences between the .357 up to the .500's. >>

Yes larger calibers will show less critical need to neck tension but more to powder selection. Why do you think shoulders and necks were eventually added to cases shapes?

Yes shooting heavier bullets adds inertia to neck tension equation.

Yes primer choice is affected by the choice of neck tension.

Yes longer barrels mitigate variables.

Yes slower powders work if they can provide critical "correct" ignition.

There, that aught to stop you from asking more questions that will require detailed theory answers. Go experiment.

here is one. Take a primed case with no powder and place a quarter on the muzzle with the gun held vertically. Set off the primer and watch how high the coin goes. Do that with each caliber handgun and you will see primer power diminish in the larger volume cases / bores. That should show you "the need" for neck tension is minimized by volume. The old tractor tire / bicycle tire analogy.

I just told you why so you could come to that yourself so maybe you would remember it next time.
No, Bass , experimenting is done. I know what causes POI changes and what causes fliers. I know what primer is needed in every case.
Well over 50 years to learn the revolver compared to the short time to make a rifle shoot.
Then the single shot pistol with 5 shot 3/8" groups at 100 and scary groups at 200 meters.
Things are really a lot easier then you explain. I want to help a new shooter, not confuse him. Turn things down to basics.
In all these years, you have never shown one single proof or picture.

[44man]

I will try to get some .357s on paper using a seating tension arm. Just can't find any dang 1/8" spring steel rod locally! Have also been busy at the range and at home getting my step-son ready for NRA YHEC competition coming up in 2 weeks! If it isn't for the last minute.. nothing gets done around here!
Go to a model shop and ask for piano wire or landing gear wire. It is spring steel.
I would appreciate your testing. Never quit testing because it is where accuracy is found.
Show results, good or bad. A picture is worth 1000 words. Never, ever hide behind a keyboard. Never show one group shot by accident, show many. Tune so every group is good, not one fluke.

[Bass Ackward]

In all these years, you have never shown one single proof or picture.

Not true. They just didn't support your position so they were dismissed.

[44man]

Not true. They just didn't support your position so they were dismissed.
Now come on my friend, do you mean you have no pictures? Have you no pile of group pictures? Can you not go right to the range and prove a concept?
Just ask me and I will go right to my range to test.
You dismiss too much.
Just why can't you produce revolver groups?

[Bass Ackward]

Now come on my friend, do you mean you have no pictures? Have you no pile of group pictures? Can you not go right to the range and prove a concept?
Just ask me and I will go right to my range to test.
You dismiss too much.
Just why can't you produce revolver groups?



No I do not keep pictures of targets. You are joking of coarse. I don't even take them unless I need to prove a point.

I also have stated before that no revolver I own wears glass. That ruins the functionality of a handgun for me. A vast amount of my shooting doesn't even use the opens? (instinctive)

I do mount glass for testing or load development purposes only, so I will have to mount one and see. I am going to do a test just to see how important case neck tension really is and if it can be worked around. I will use zero neck tension. Bullets will be seated by hand in fired, unsized cases and then only crimped to hold position.

I will use the 44 Mag since you believe it to be the worst and case neck tension critical to that or it sprays 10" groups. Gives me something to do anyway. Yea, yea, I'll take pictures.

Gotta go, bobber just went down.

[44man]

Great Bass, but you will not be happy with zero tension unless you only load one at a time. They WILL shoot but do not expect a cylinder full to stay in place.
Now you need to remember I do NOT use a scope, I use an Ultra Dot with zero magnification. I also use open sights. I have not equaled either with a scope.
Forget glass but you are free to use anything you want to. Put a 20X scope on the gun for all I care about. Do what you need to for vision. I am NOT testing your eyes. I am NOT testing your shooting either so if your sights are off at trigger break, the boolit should go to the sights, so report it as that. Use the best rest that you can.
This is nothing but a simple mechanical problem as is everything with a revolver so test the gun and load, not yourself.
I have already done all you propose and a revolver needs 5 or 6 rounds for hunting, it is not a single shot. A cylinder full should go into the same ragged hole. Learn why one or two went out of the group. They are important and every shot out has a reason. When you hold the target in your hand, you should be able to tell why a shot was out and if is just you, forget it.
If a guy shoots 12" patterns at 50 yards, I can not help unless it is hands on. I can not help a shooter from distance. That man will never tell what one shot does over another.
Sorry, I can not produce a shooter, only a gun and load.

[44man]

Ever wonder why so much dispute? It is because a revolver or pistol is HARD to shoot. You have to master the guns before you can see what changes do.
Running 20,000 rounds from a progressive and shooting plates at 50' and you are in the dark because all you need is hits on the plates.
Shoot deer at 15 yards and it is all you need. Shoot big bores at 25 yards and roll over in glee.
Shooting is so different for all of us that we can not connect. I want a tiny group at 50 or 100 while others think a 25 yard group is good if all is on paper.
No lead in the bore? Is that the bottom line?

[tek4260]

Ya'll need to stop with all this!! I was happy taking the blame for the unexpected flyers, and now I have to consider neck tension and seating pressure on top of everything else!! :)

I really do appreciate all the great info I get from reading here. Maybe one day I'll know enough to add something to the pile.

[subsonic]

Ever wonder why so much dispute? It is because a revolver or pistol is HARD to shoot.

I often wonder if handguns aren't just as easy to shoot as sporter type rifles, it's just that most people don't TRY for accuracy as great or as far and they aren't quite as idiot proof. Once you learn the correct trigger control, things become 10X easier.

Would more people shoot handguns with more close range accuracy if they didn't have sights, but only a trigger to worry about?

[44man]

Not really because 100% of your concentration must be on the sight picture. Nothing else must interfere. Not even someone shooting a cannon next to you.
The big difference between any handgun and a rifle is that they are harder to hold still.

[warf73]

The big difference between any handgun and a rifle is that they are harder to hold still.


A very true statement.

[Bass Ackward]

I have already done all you propose and a revolver needs 5 or 6 rounds for hunting, it is not a single shot. A cylinder full should go into the same ragged hole. Learn why one or two went out of the group. They are important and every shot out has a reason. When you hold the target in your hand, you should be able to tell why a shot was out and if is just you, forget it.


OK, so you have done it already. Saves me the time. I knew already, just didn't have the pictures.

I got some bad news for you that is going to cause some recalculating on your part. Fiers can be (and are) caused by many things besides case neck tension. I know this because the most accurate form for shooting cast is breach seated and they don't use neck tension. And these guns still have fliers.

As dumb as I am, adding cases just seems that it would add to the reasons for fliers and not subtract to only case neck tension. But what do I know.

[Frank]

Bass Ackward:
Fiers can be (and are) caused by many things besides case neck tension.
44man has cured those other problems. Now he's narrowed it down to neck tension. What is there not to believe? He shows his groups and gives his loads. :drinks:

[44man]

OK, so you have done it already. Saves me the time. I knew already, just didn't have the pictures.

I got some bad news for you that is going to cause some recalculating on your part. Fiers can be (and are) caused by many things besides case neck tension. I know this because the most accurate form for shooting cast is breach seated and they don't use neck tension. And these guns still have fliers.

As dumb as I am, adding cases just seems that it would add to the reasons for fliers and not subtract to only case neck tension. But what do I know.
A simple question for you Bass. Take a perfectly good boolit with the right load AND perfect neck tesion (Even, not just tight.) and shoot 3 in one hole but have 2 fliers out an inch.
What caused the fliers if all else is perfect?
How about shooting a PB into a pattern while getting a group with a GC, yet you still have a few fliers? What is the next step to get rid of the fliers? How do you make the PB shoot a group?
Yes, it is mechanical, forget the math. [smilie=1:
Now what if everything you do is perfect except for ONE mistake with your load and the gun will not group?
Case tension work will not help much at all until these other problems have been solved, but it is a start. The coon is up the other tree you bark at! :kidding:
Don't delve deep with all kinds of stuff, the answers are on your fingertips. I don't want to see 100 causes, just one for each.
Put it all together in one load as easy as it can get. Tell the new guy with a new revolver how to shoot a 1/2" group at 50 yards in one range session from a rest if he is capable of trigger control.
Neither of us can help a flinch or fear! [smilie=1:

[Bass Ackward]

A simple question for you Bass. Take a perfectly good boolit with the right load AND perfect neck tesion (Even, not just tight.) and shoot 3 in one hole but have 2 fliers out an inch.
What caused the fliers if all else is perfect? [smilie=1:



Absolutely. Question is, how do you "KNOW" everything else is perfect? Ever test a box of primers the way I told you? Do you know that a few primers in a box of Fed 150s will be the strength of rifle primers? That's worse than loading one with Winchester primers, one with Federal, etc. And you already said primer is everything.

So there is potential non-perfection. Should have bought "Match" primers. But slow powder and larger volume cases will mitigate the percentage of the error.

Does weighing cases make a difference? Sometimes. I believe that volume here is an advantage as well.

How about turning cases? Sometimes. And sometimes not. Trust me. Why not just shoot the cases and set aside the ones that don't go where they are supposed to? Who gives a hoot about why? Well, you do if you are going to pin point it to something huh?

What about correcting primer seating depth? Well, if you are fanatical about primers and that only one type will do, then they aren't all they can be unless primer strike is exactly the same. Doesn't mean it will make a difference, but you eliminate that variable.

You have gone off about hammer springs before, so we have moved on from that.

So the problem with ammo is that no one can bet his life that everything else is perfect and he must satisfy himself on what rituals he is to go through. And what somebody else does, I don't care. Unless they ask why.

Don't do that again and life will go on.

Volume mitigates error. Volume lowers muzzle pressure to deflect errant bases. And the list goes on.

[44man]

Absolutely. Question is, how do you "KNOW" everything else is perfect? Ever test a box of primers the way I told you? Do you know that a few primers in a box of Fed 150s will be the strength of rifle primers? That's worse than loading one with Winchester primers, one with Federal, etc. And you already said primer is everything.

So there is potential non-perfection. Should have bought "Match" primers. But slow powder and larger volume cases will mitigate the percentage of the error.

Does weighing cases make a difference? Sometimes. I believe that volume here is an advantage as well.

How about turning cases? Sometimes. And sometimes not. Trust me. Why not just shoot the cases and set aside the ones that don't go where they are supposed to? Who gives a hoot about why? Well, you do if you are going to pin point it to something huh?

What about correcting primer seating depth? Well, if you are fanatical about primers and that only one type will do, then they aren't all they can be unless primer strike is exactly the same. Doesn't mean it will make a difference, but you eliminate that variable.

You have gone off about hammer springs before, so we have moved on from that.

So the problem with ammo is that no one can bet his life that everything else is perfect and he must satisfy himself on what rituals he is to go through. And what somebody else does, I don't care. Unless they ask why.

Don't do that again and life will go on.

Volume mitigates error. Volume lowers muzzle pressure to deflect errant bases. And the list goes on.
You are DANCING again, going way too far for a few simple answers. We know all the other stuff and so many things mean so little.
Go back to my post and just answer what I asked.
Bass, you are far, far, far too technical. Small groups are EASY and shots can be read and corrected. 5 shots are enough. Some shoot 12, 24 or 1000 and do not know a thing. Shoot 5 today, 5 tomorrow, 5 next week and they should all be the same size groups. If 1 shot goes out, explain why and fix it. I ask you to explain the flier, not a treatise on 1000 problems.

You bring up primer seating. I use a cheap Lee priming tool and every case needs a different push. The day I tell you that each means anything is the day I run out of booze! :drinks:

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, you are far, far, far too technical.



Yea I theorize, but then I give you the meat and potatoes. Why? Cause while some refuse to learn (no names will be mentioned) there are others that might like to know another way if they don't want to build a loading set-up that slows their loading. These are pretty straight forward.

There are three simple tests that I have listed that minus all the talk, debate, logic will show anybody.

1. The quarter on the muzzle trick will SHOW YOU what you are dealing with.

2. Loading a case without any powder and shooting it. (use a dowel rod to measure the distance and then knock it back out)

3. Load and shoot your brass and set aside any that don't do what you want.

How hard is that?

If everything is the same for all calibers, the primer will knock the bullet farther up the pipe in the smaller volume case and less as you go up. (What that means is: neck tension is less critical if it doesn't go as far.) Hint: it's different for different bullet weights and styles in the same caliber too. (as long as your primers are consistent enough to show it.)

You asked why was case neck tension less important in the 475 than the 44 Mag? Don't trust me, try it and see. Bullet weight (inertia) / Bicycle tire / tractor tire.

Now I will let you have the last word since I know you are going to take it anyway. And that's the way it was this May 26th ...................... Take it away Walter. :grin:

[44man]

Now I will always give you the last word if the answer is correct.
Fliers are not a primer problem if the right primer is used for the application and you know I am a stickler for that.
That is not the answer so let's just assume all primers are exact and your loadings are good. Now you put 3 shots in one ragged hole at 50 yards but 2 are out, every time you try to shoot a group. That is the Question.
Case tension is exact, you weighed the brass and boolits, yet get fliers.
I have you down to having the answer on one finger tip! :coffee:
I also listed a few other simple problems. The answer is really the same for all.
Oh yeah, what you fail to also see is that the larger cases take mag primers for the best accuracy while the .44 does not. Neither does the .45 Colt. Your quarter test does not measure heat or the amount or type of primer compound, just pressure. Did you know a SR mag primer has a lot of pressure but runs out of fire? Primer tests are just that---tests that tell you nothing about what goes on in the brass behind a boolit.
Load dummy rounds to measure boolit distance up the bore. Did you know that is a tension issue? Just how do you measure the primer if your brass is off?

[felix]

Don't forget the primer induced shock wave as an another direct igniter! Obviously, any wave ignition would be even more dependent on the container shape than either heat or mechanical force. How to measure power nervousness to what wave amplitude/frequency would be the most difficult to ascertain with confidence. Even then, different guns materially affect the primer wave attributes, and would provide another question for Professor Gun. Don't forget the waves generated by the primer strike are additive to this equation. ... felix

[44man]

Don't forget the primer induced shock wave as an another direct igniter! Obviously, any wave ignition would be even more dependent on the container shape than either heat or mechanical force. How to measure power nervousness to what wave amplitude/frequency would be the most difficult to ascertain with confidence. Even then, different guns materially affect the primer wave attributes, and would provide another question for Professor Gun. Don't forget the waves generated by the primer strike are additive to this equation. ... felix
Good information Felix and true. But I have Bass against the wall with a super simple answer he will not answer even though I have posted a million times with it.
He is good and knows a lot but refuses to step down to easy. :drinks: Easy can make accuracy and if he watched me load or I let him load, he would ask "how in the heck is it so simple?"
Thinking at the bench is good but deep, deep, deep thinking and a million theories will fail. Only practical and mechanical will work.
We are simple cast shooters, not military genius material with one bullet, one load and a computer. How great to take a .44 and cast to make a one shot kill at 2000 yards? We are in the dark ages but we can make it work for what we need.
Many years for me to get Bass to be easy, not hard, with little luck! :mrgreen:

[felix]

Jim, I betcha' John really knows the relationships, and is just playing a word game for something interesting to talk about in lieu of what is prevalent on the board these days. ... felix

[44man]

Jim, I betcha' John really knows the relationships, and is just playing a word game for something interesting to talk about in lieu of what is prevalent on the board these days. ... felix
That might be! :bigsmyl2:
He loves word games for sure. He does come up with a lot of stuff but still, in the end, much means little.
You know I am still after him because he didn't like my hat? [smilie=w:

[felix]

What is interesting to me is the identification of what cartridges and bore sizes are inherently accurate no matter what gun is used, based upon the current crop of components. ... felix

[44man]

What is interesting to me is the identification of what cartridges and bore sizes are inherently accurate no matter what gun is used, based upon the current crop of components. ... felix
Something I never worked out yet because I do not have enough calibers. I used to make a .357 S&W shoot super but in the years since I have a lot of trouble with friends guns. (I will not own one again.)
I need to wonder if smaller calibers just need more perfect guns!!!
Like a .22 revolver, none will shoot like a semi.
It gets confusing because I had a Ruger .357 Max that was unreal yet a .357 Ruger can be a pain.
It is why I ask others to test with case tension and primers for what I do not own. If someone asks about a nine, I have no idea because it is a useless caliber for long range or deer hunting and most guns are not built for accuracy past 7 yards.
Now a few good 1911's have done many 1/2" groups for me at 50 while others spray. But the 1911 can be turned into a jewel. One of the best out of box was a Dan Wesson that poked ragged holes at 50. You really can hit targets to 200 meters with a good 1911. I love the gun but never bought one. I have built up fantastic ones, shot hundreds, yet never owned one for me.
I still have Bass in a corner with an answer that takes 5 words! :mrgreen: