Need Load Data for 357 170 gr LSWC

[ColColt]

I'm looking for a medium velocity load for the 357 using Universal. Loads with the 358429 bullet seems to be scarce as hens teeth unless you're using 2400, H110 or Blue Dot. I like Universal as it's not as smokey as Unique and most of my shooting is at an indoor range.

I have one good load (9 gr of HS-6) but was looking for one with Universal as well. I hate spending $150 for QuickLoad software but Lyman's manual doesn't show that powder with this bullet neither does Speer have data with a LSWC in this weight. Even some data for W231 would help as well.

[475BH]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[bhn22]

You need to get a Lyman manual. I try to get one of each, as long as it covers cast bullets. A lot of the data also includes pressure testing

[Leadmelter]

ColColt
From the Lyman manual vintage 1964 #43, they list the bullet at 165 gr.
Unique 4-7 gr top vel 1220
2400 11-14 gr tope vel1460

From Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook ist edition in the 1970's
They list the bullet at 168 gr and the mid velocity load is

Herco 5.6 to 7.o grs with a top velocity of 1104.
I like to collect the old manuals for this reason.
Good Luck
Gerry

[Doby45]

Yhea, but he is looking for "Universal" load data..

[ColColt]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Thanks but no cigar.


You need to get a Lyman manual. I try to get one of each, as long as it covers cast bullets. A lot of the data also includes pressure testing

I have three Lyman manuals and there is no data for this powder with a 170 gr lead bullet. Universal guys-Universal.

Unique is a good one but it's pretty smokey in the indoor range. That's why I was needing Universal. I know it's better in the smoking section.:)

[Doby45]

Closest I see is the 158gr XTP @ 5.8 start and 6.3 max. I would personally load some up at 5gr and see what they do. Should be plenty safe.

[ColColt]

Speer's #14 manual shows a similar load with their 158 gr GDHP with 6.5 start and 7.3 max but I don't know how to interpolate jacketed to lead. I guess the 170 gr's not all that popular...surprises me, though. Most companies make a good looking bullet in this weight and Dan of Mountain Molds made me an excellent mold for it. Surely there's got to be more data than what's shown in Lyman's manual as well. They don't even list Unique with this weight bullet.

I reckon I can always use 12-12.5 gr of 2400 and forget about Universal it seems. What I find odd is that Lyman list Unique, 231, HS-6 and Universal for the 38 Special with the same bullet but none of these for the 357? Very interesting. Perchance a little interpolation is in order here. Just 1/10th an inch longer and none of those powders are listed. Yep, most odd.

[That'll Do]

The only load I have for the 358429 and Universal for 357 Magnum is from the August 2007 Handloader magazines (issue #248).

It list a 173gr bullet, with 7.0gr of Universal with a regular small pistol primer. It lists the load at 1130 fps from a 4" barrel.

At least this gives you a place to start. I'd probably work up from 6.0gr of Universal.

[ColColt]

Thanks, I'll look into that. I wrote Hodgdon yesterday but, you never knew when or if you'll get a response.

[fecmech]

I reckon I can always use 12-12.5 gr of 2400 and forget about Universal it seems. What I find odd is that Lyman list Unique, 231, HS-6 and Universal for the 38 Special with the same bullet but none of these for the 357? Very interesting. Perchance a little interpolation is in order here. Just 1/10th an inch longer and none of those powders are listed. Yep, most odd.

Why not just use Lymans 38 spl data and go up from there to where you want to be??Lymans oal's between .38 spl and .357 for the 358429 are very close, I'm away from home now but IIRC it's only .013" difference.:)

[ColColt]

There's a great deal of difference in SAAMI specs on the maximum chamber pressure of these two cartridges, however. The 38 Special is maxed at 17,000 while the 38 +P is 20,000 and the 357 is 35,000 psi-big difference. Some of the powders listed for a given bullet weight for the 38 are not even listed as a viable alternative in the 357 and conversely. I guess Lyman had their reasons.

[Ohio Rusty]

Both the Lyman cast boolit handbook and Lyman 49th reloading manual has load data for that 170 grain boolit, but no loads using universal powder. Maybe some different searched on the 'net will reveal another reloader posting data ffor the .357 using universal.
Lyman 49th does give load data for the 38 special, using the 170 grain 358249 lead boolit ... With univeresal, starting load is 4.0 for 799 fps, and max load is 4.5 witjh 912 fps. pressure at max is 15,500.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[fecmech]

There's a great deal of difference in SAAMI specs on the maximum chamber pressure of these two cartridges, however. The 38 Special is maxed at 17,000 while the 38 +P is 20,000 and the 357 is 35,000 psi-big difference. Some of the powders listed for a given bullet weight for the 38 are not even listed as a viable alternative in the 357 and conversely. I guess Lyman had their reasons.

That's my whole point, in you OP you want a .357 load in a .357 gun, medium range at that and you want Universal powder!. I'm afraid I don't understand the problem. You have a gun proofed to 40+K, according to your post you have a Universal load that maxes out somewhere around 16 k in the Lyman book for 38 spl. What is the danger in working up from the max 38 spl load?? Even if you were working with Bullseye you could go up a grain or more and still not be nearing max standard magnum pressures. I would guess the reason Lyman chose not to use Universal in the .357 mag with 358429 is it's not very useful in a magnum cartridge. I.E. it runs into max pressure before getting true mag velocities, but you don't want max velocity and you do want Universal. Soooo why not work up from the .38 spl load??:confused:

[uscra112]

The money I spent for Quickload is the best $150 I've invested in a coon's age. Endless fun trying out various scenarios. Shooting is now almost anti-climactic.

BTW it says that 5-6 grains of Hodgdon Universal will yield 950 to 1050 fps from a 4" barrel, with pressure not exceeding 25K psi. Your mileage may vary.

Me, I prefer AA#7 for medium loads like you are asking for. It gives me the best standard deviations over the Chrony, anyway, from my S&Ws.

[ColColt]

That's my whole point, in you OP you want a .357 load in a .357 gun, medium range at that and you want Universal powder!. I'm afraid I don't understand the problem. You have a gun proofed to 40+K, according to your post you have a Universal load that maxes out somewhere around 16 k in the Lyman book for 38 spl. What is the danger in working up from the max 38 spl load?? Even if you were working with Bullseye you could go up a grain or more and still not be nearing max standard magnum pressures. I would guess the reason Lyman chose not to use Universal in the .357 mag with 358429 is it's not very useful in a magnum cartridge. I.E. it runs into max pressure before getting true mag velocities, but you don't want max velocity and you do want Universal. Soooo why not work up from the .38 spl load??:confused:

The problem was I couldn't find a published tried and true load with the 170 gr bullet with Universal Clays. That was the problem. The reason for Universal as indicated was Unique, although a great powder, it's not the best used indoors due to the smoke. It don't bother me all that much but I have to think of others at the range beside me in the next lane or two. There's cleaner, less smoky powder than Unique and the "new and improved Unique" ain't one of them. Outside it's fine and I use it to a degree but it's not great for indoors, IMHO. Universal is and hence, my hunt for a good load with it. I considered AA#5, another fine powder I have several pounds of but, it gives higher pressure and lower velocity than Universal.

Having said that, I guess I'll have to disagree with you about the 358429 not being a useful bullet for magnum velocities.Elmer designed it from the 429421 mold and you know him and his love of magnum velocities. Of course, I'm not looking for that as I would be using 2400 or H110 for that which gives me basically the same velocities as does the lighter bullets with the same powder according to Lyman's 49th manual. I'm simply looking for a medium velocity load with it as I don't need 1300+ fps...hard on the gun and hard on me and my tinnitus affected ears-even with ear protection. A full house 357 indoors is pretty loud.

Working up from the 38 Special(or +P) is feasible and you can always interpolate-I've done that. However, I just wanted to see some specs on this as to pressure, load, velocity before venturing to the reloading bench. I don't think 5-6.5 gr of Universal would hurt a Ruger but, I don't know the pressures involved. I can only speculate. I don't necessarily have to use Universal-just wanted to try it since I have several pounds and like the way it behaves regardless the bullet weight.

I'm looking into QUICKLoad read hard as for guys like me that like to play around and not have to look all over the Internet for some loads it would be superb.

[MtGun44]

I think he meant that Universal isn't too useful at magnum loads, not that 358429 isn't
useful. I'm not commenting on the statement, just what he meant - at least to my reading.

Use a 158 gr load for a jacketed, it will be absolutely safe (assuming your gun is a "normal"
gun, and not all are) and will develop less pressure due to being lead - lower friction, and
then the extra wt will cause it to develop a touch more pressure, probably about balance
each other out. Start low and work up, as usual.

Also - it is likely the lube, not the powder, that is causing the smoke. I think you may
be disappointed in the results.

Bill

[ColColt]

I've been using Carnuba Red but recently have switched to BAC just to see the difference, if I can notice that small change. It could be with this caliber in my particular revolver it won't smoke quite as much...I don't' know yet but experimentation is part of the fun. What works for some may not work for all. Unique again, is a good powder but it doesn't meter well in my old Ohaus DU-O-Measure like HS-6 or Universal and AA-5...or 2400 for that matter. I use to use it exclusively in the 45 Colt but 99% of my shooting with it was outdoors then.

[fecmech]

MTgun44 was correct, 358429 is an excellent .357 mag bullet and one I use the most for mag loads in the .357! Universal clays is a much less than stellar powder for magnum applications, that is why I believe Lyman did not have any load data for it.

[GP100man]

Don`t forget the large flaked powders , Herco & 800X excellent performers for midrange loadings in the 357 !! albeit a little harder to handle powders but good peformers just the same & I feel 800X is as clean a burner as any short of V V powders !!!!

[ColColt]

I almost bought some Herco at the gun show a couple weeks back but remembered reading about it not metering very well like Unique, so I passed it up. There's lots of great powders out there and I guess the best for this particular bullet would be 2400 or maybe even AA#7 or #9. I just don't care for H110 in 357 or 44 Magnum...too quirky. I'm still thinking QUICKLoad.

[That'll Do]

I almost bought some Herco at the gun show a couple weeks back but remembered reading about it not metering very well like Unique, so I passed it up. There's lots of great powders out there and I guess the best for this particular bullet would be 2400 or maybe even AA#7 or #9. I just don't care for H110 in 357 or 44 Magnum...too quirky. I'm still thinking QUICKLoad.

I bought a pound of Herco back during the last component shortage, and while I haven't used it a lot, I did use it with the 358429, and I was surprised how accurate it was. But it meters somewhat poorly (it looks exactly like Unique). That said, it still would be a powder to consider.

[rintinglen]

I had a bit of universal left after loading up some 45 ACP and used it to load some 38-162 SWC's in 357 cases.
5.6 grains made a nice mid-level load, it shot ok, but not great. I'll probably stick with Unique in the future. I would try 5.4 grains Universal under the 358-429.
I did not notice any great decrease in powder smoke, though I wasn't truly looking for that.

[ColColt]

It may not work as well for me as it does with the 38 and 45 but I'm going to give Universal a try with the 357 cases and the 170 gr boolit. I loaded some in 6, 6.5 and 7.0 gr to try next range trip. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Who knows, this combo may be a tack driver in this revolver.

[Bret4207]

Speer's #14 manual shows a similar load with their 158 gr GDHP with 6.5 start and 7.3 max but I don't know how to interpolate jacketed to lead. I guess the 170 gr's not all that popular...surprises me, though. Most companies make a good looking bullet in this weight and Dan of Mountain Molds made me an excellent mold for it. Surely there's got to be more data than what's shown in Lyman's manual as well. They don't even list Unique with this weight bullet.

I reckon I can always use 12-12.5 gr of 2400 and forget about Universal it seems. What I find odd is that Lyman list Unique, 231, HS-6 and Universal for the 38 Special with the same bullet but none of these for the 357? Very interesting. Perchance a little interpolation is in order here. Just 1/10th an inch longer and none of those powders are listed. Yep, most odd.

In general terms it's simple as pie. You can use jacketed loads with cast, of course you start at the lower end of the recommended loads, but you can't always use cast loads with jacketed. Cast is more forgiving than jacketed as far as pressures go. That doesn't mean every jacketed load will work with cast, but it gives you a starting point.

[NHlever]

Quick Load suggests that 6.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal might be a reasonable maximum with the Lyman 358429 170 grain boolit. They give around 33,000 PSI for that load, but since they use a formula, and not actural data, I would sneak up on that, or beyond that careflully. Loaded at 5.5 grains shows over 28,000 PSI so you can see that the pressure is coming up pretty quickly at those levels. Remember, this is just data from software, but I hope it helps some.

YOUR 7.0 GRAIN LOAD SHOWS OVER 46,000 PSI SO MAYBE THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE LOST TRYING THAT WITHOUT DATA.

[ColColt]

I had no idea that small a charge would bring pressures up that high. I was thinking more in terms of 22,000-25 000 psi at best. I didn't load any 7 grain cases-decided against that but I did load about ten with 6.5 grains. What did they show for velocity with 6 or 6.5 gr? I tell you I've got to get QUICKLoad. Iowegan over at the Ruger forum swears by it and he's a most knowledgeable fellow and former gunsmith/armorer.

[MtGun44]

If you are going to "color outside the lines" (shoot loads well away from published data) you
really need a chronograph. If you use comparable speed powders with the same wt boolit,
you should expect comparable max velocities. So if Universal is similar in burning speed to
Unique (and I believe it is, please verify) you would expect to get about the same max
velocity with Universal as with Unique. So, if you can find Unique data, and start low with
Universal and work up to the same velocity range, you should still be pressure safe as a
broad general rule.

Published data is a lot safer, and using jacketed data for cast has always been safe for me,
and I have never seen published jacketed and boolit data that shows a jbullet load, if used
for cast of the same wt, would be unsafe. Typically, you will see higher velocities with the
same powder charge with lead vs the same load with jbullets - less friction in cast.

Bill

[ColColt]

Those two powders are relatively close in burn rate and velocities. The Speer manual as well as Lyman's doesn't list either powders for the 170 gr bullet in neither lead or jacketed for the 357, unfortunately. I looked at the data on the 38 Special +P for both powders and they do show a similar charge weight as well as velocity spread for both. Might I add that the Hodgdon on line data doesn't list Unique or Universal for their only 170 gr load and that's for the Sierra JHP.

[NHlever]

QuickLoad shows 1185 fps at 39,801 psi for the 6.5 grain load from a 6" barrel, and 1127 fps at 33,885 psi out of a 6" barrel also. Not much velocity loss for the drop in pressure.

[ColColt]

My GP100 is a 4" so, I should get about 1050 fps...just about right.

[bhn22]

I was too obtuse. There appears to be a relationship between Unique reloading data and Universal Clays that you might consider carefully exploring.