.45-70 on the quiet

[Potsy]

My brother-in-law has been doing some piggy control with his .300 Whisper, Subsonic, Suppressed with (200 or 220 grn., I forget) Sierra boatails.
On anything other than earhole shots, the results have been pretty unspectacular. Body shots are out of the question and head shots are questionable.

I told him he needed a .45 of some sort (.45-70, .458x2", .450 Bushmaster etc.) with a can.

It put me to thinkin'.

I'm not going to thread my #1 .45-70, but, RD .460-350's down to about 1000-1100fps. ought to thump a piggy, head or body. And, while not suppressed, I can't imagine it would be very loud. It's not all that loud at 2000fps. Would have to be pretty quiet subsonic at half the pressure.

I've read about using Unique and 2400 (got both on hand) in a .45-70. Can anbody recommend a starting charge of either powder to get around 1000fps.
Is one powder better than the other?
I have a Lee 405HB a Ranch Dog .460-350 on hand. Is one or the other better for any reason.
Alloy will be something like wheelweights plus 2% tin.

Thanks!

[btroj]

Try Trailboss. Around 13 gr to start. As long as you aren't compressing the charge you are OK. Tis is a great powder for this velocity range.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I've read about using Unique and 2400 (got both on hand) in a .45-70. Can anbody recommend a starting charge of either powder to get around 1000fps.

10 gr Unique behind a 405 gr boolit will be around 1000 fps in a 22" barrel. 15 gr of 2400 will also be close to 1000 fps. Muzzle pressure will be less than 1000 psi for Unique and around 1500 psi for 2400 (for comparison, a 30-06 factory load will be around 9000 psi)

[Chicken Thief]

If you have to stay under 1100fps then energy can only come from boolit weight!
So a 500gr 45cal for svine is god medicine. Dont worry about expantion, drill a hole and let the hydralics escape.
A 300 might expand but a 45 can never get smaller!!!

[peerlesscowboy]

.....................
I've read about using Unique and 2400 (got both on hand) in a .45-70. Can anbody recommend a starting charge of either powder to get around 1000fps.
Is one powder better than the other?
I have a Lee 405HB a Ranch Dog .460-350 on hand. Is one or the other better for any reason.
Alloy will be something like wheelweights plus 2% tin. ........
10 grains Unique should do it :drinks:

[No_1]

I like 10 Grains Unique also.

R.

[BoolitBill]

This site may help http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[mustanggt]

I would suggest getting Lymans cast bullet handbook. Mike Venturino authored it and it is very good, rather than get data by word of mouth. It's more of a sure thing with the book.

[6.5 mike]

Load some of both & give them a try, about the only way to know for sure.:Fire:

[Shooter6br]

Quiet ,accurate load with plenty of smack :holysheep

[Shooter6br]

About 777 ft lbs at the muzzle

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Looking in my old Lyman from 1970 14 grains grains under a 330gr. does 1240fps from a 22" Marlin. So looks like each grain Unique changes velocity abouty 90 fps. So that 10 grain load looks like it is going to be about 900fps. 11 grains about 1000 fps.
The 385 grain boolit from the same manual is not much different...
Me I would load one round of WW at that 10 grains and go pop it at some stacked 3/4 plywood and see how it penetrates & the noise level. Adjust as needed.
Mike in Peru

[Potsy]

I'm going to break out the Chrony and go to the Range in a week or two (danged work) and research it a bit. Prolly dump 11 grains and go from there (I think subsonic is anything under roughly 1150fps.).
The first requirment is quiet. This keeps the pigs from scattering. Another guy hunts with a suppressed M4 with supersonic ammo and the noise is about like a .22 Mag and doesn't seem to bother them too bad. I suspect the .45-70 loads we're discussing at the very least won't be any louder.
The second is accuracy. Head shots help keep the ruckus down. Most of the shooting is at 50 yards or less.
In terms of power and penetration, it'll be evaluated on live targets, but I can't imagine that a 405 WW bullet at 1000fps (give or take) at 50 yards won't penetrate skulls (or shoulders).

Thanks a bunch for the input. I'll keep ya'll posted!

[bearcove]

It will probably penetrate from one end to the other. Shooting broadside you will probably never recover a slug.

[Larry Gibson]

Subsonic with a larger .45 bullet is going to be 1050 fps depending on altitude. It's the speed of the air moving around the bullet that creates the sonic "crack". If the speed of the bullet was 1150 fps the air moving around the bullet is going faster. The larger the caliber and more blunt shaped the nose the lower the bullets velocity must be to stay subsonic. However, without a good suppressor the muzzle blast of even that light a charge will mask the "crack" of the bullet at close range.

Larry Gibson

[Artful]

Larry's right, keep them under 1000 fps and you want use as little powder as possible so that when the bullet uncorks the barrel you don't get a huge rush of gases, if you don't have a muzzle can (suppressor) to control the muzzle gases upon escape. The other thing is twist rate of your 45-70 if it's not quick enough, the bullet won't stabalize as it comes out the barrel. Also the larger the caliber of the bullet the more noisy it will be. And the closer you approach speed of sound velicities the louder it will get.


http://guns.connect.fi/rs/bulnoise.GIF
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/bulnoise.html

- you can go to a shorter bullet to help stabalize it but for penetration you want high Sectional Density (ie longer heavier bullet). So try the heavy boolit and if doesn't stabalize go to the shorter lighter one. At one point I had a friend with a single shot 45-70 (H&R I think?) anyway we made up some loads with paper patched 45 colt bullets for his quiet work and I seem to remember it was Unique we used.

Here's some links to help ya.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/762ProjectRifle.html

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ed.html

http://guns.connect.fi/rs/index.html

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane3.html

http://www.swage.com/ftp/subsonic.pdf

[Doc Highwall]

Listen to Larry on this one, bullet diameter is a factor and blunt noses compound it. A heavier bullet with a blunt nose will help out, I would go with a 400 grain minimum.

[justashooter]

i have 500 grain spire points over 13 grains unique at 980 FPS just last week. not quiet, but would be with a can. line them up 2 at a time with this load, which makes about 1200 foot pounds, but would penetrate 6-8 feet of porker reliably and knock just about anything off it's feet toot sweet.

for this velocity and open sights point of impact is 2.5-3" high at 25 yards, 3-4" high at 50, and dead on at 100.

[Artful]

I don't think you will find recommendations for faster powder than Unique in 45-70, but I do remember reading in one of the Handloader magazines about someone soldering in an insert to use less powder. I don't know how far you want to try and take it but if Unique doesn't do what you want, that might be your next step.

[Shooter6br]

Read an article from Precision shooting about reduced capacity 45-70 cases. Turns out it did not lower SD over regular cases. I forget wgo makes the brass:coffee:

[Longwood]

Read an article from Precision shooting about reduced capacity 45-70 cases. Turns out it did not lower SD over regular cases. I forget wgo makes the brass:coffee:

What does SD stand for?

[Artful]

in his context (Standard of Deviation) is the calculated difference between highs and lows on average of a shot strilng.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/statistics-for-rifle-shooters.html

other uses for SD are Sectional Density - mass ratio to area of projectile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density

[Artful]

Read an article from Precision shooting about reduced capacity 45-70 cases. Turns out it did not lower SD over regular cases. I forget wgo makes the brass:coffee:

My intention with the reduced case capacity was to be able to use less powder to push the boolit to the same overall velocity but have less gas vent out the front.

[Longwood]

in his context (Standard of Deviation) is the calculated difference between highs and lows on average of a shot strilng.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/statistics-for-rifle-shooters.html

other uses for SD are Sectional Density - mass ratio to area of projectile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density

Thanks for your time.
I can think of several other things SD could mean also.
It is so nice when people take a second or two and type out what they are talking about instead of expecting people to read their mind.

[NHlever]

Strictly from personal experience muzzle blast, partly a function of pressure, is also a consideration with unsupressed guns. A .45 Colt seems quieter shooting a 250 grain cast bullet at 1000 fps. than a .44 Mag does shooting a 240 grain cast bullet at the same velocity though it sometimes takes more powder, it does it at a lower pressure. For that matter, a .45 Colt lever gun wth a longer barrel would be a pretty quiet pig gun at those velocities.

[Artful]

Yep pressure and gas volume have a lot to do with sound signature. You want to get the bullet up to speed while in the barrel and have the powder all burned up and the pressure dropping to relative atmosphic or as close as possible by the time the bullet exits the muzzle.

[35remington]

FWIW, with Ed Harris's "the Load" of 13 grains of Red Dot I obtain 1120 fps with a Lee 405 grain bullet in my 22 inch barreled Marlin 45-70. I'd think you'd need around 11-12 grains Red Dot to get you in the vicinity, and the same or a little more of Unique, as Unique is a bit slower than Red Dot. 16 grains Unique gets 1260 fps.

Of course, these fast powders are sensitive to deeply seated bullets, and the deeper the bullet seats (for a given weight) the faster it will go. Substituting the Lee 405 grain hollowbase nets another 100 fps with the same powder charges due to this deeper seating.

[Potsy]

Well, I loaded a couple of 405HB's over 10grn. Unique yesterday. I only had 2 rounds and it was late and cloudy enough the chrony wouldn't register.
It was a bunch louder than I thought it would be, so I don't know how much hog hunting utility it will have; buuuut, it was a bunch quieter than my regular load for that rifle, with very little recoil. I think I'll load a few more and see where they shoot just because. Maybe my wife will need to fling 400 grains of WW in the back yard. Who knows?

[Artful]

You know I might take some paper and roll into a thick cylinder and insert to take up some capacity and try some reddot and see what that does. Interesting I never thought of using Red Dot in 45-70.

[btroj]

I would not try changing the capacity of the case. It really isn't an issue. Many powders work just fine in the big old 45-70 case.
I would be very afraid of using a roll of paper in the case to reduce velocity. If that paper ever gets into, but not out of, the barrel you can damage the rifle badly. Putting things like this into the case just seem like a bad idea to me.
You could try light loads and use a Dacron filler like many here have used. Personally, I use 2400 in my 45-70 with no filler and no problem. Trailboss is perfect for reduced loads as it will fill the space fine.

[adrians]

trailboss /// unique , pick you flavor i use both in my trapdoor(not in the same case offcourse) ,very pleasant to shoot
,the above posts suggest good powder charges ...

[old wanderer]

I have been playing a lot with my 300 Blackout (Whisper) and some heavy boolits. Waiting on a mold from NOE for a 247 Gr.

However this has focused my thoughts on my 45-70 in #1 Ruger that has been sitting in my safe since a Roosevelt Elk hunt 10 years ago. The barrel comes off easily and I could have it threaded for a silencer. At the low pressures the noise should be just the drop of the hammer.

I will look and see what kind of a can is available, as it takes almost 4 months to get the paperwork back.

I love tinkering with new projects, and some 500 Gr, boolits and a can for my old #1 would be fun. Will also have to search and see what is available in a FP mold for the 458.

Thanks for the thread and ideas.

[Potsy]

I think the ultimate for this project; purposefully built with hog killin' in mind, would probably be the old Frank Barnes .458x2" in a bolt gun (Ruger 77 seems right).
Short, heavy barrel, with a can (integral?), and a mount long enough to accomodate scope and night vision accessory in front of it.

As Dad always says; "Wish in one had......."

[725]

I love 10 grains of Unique, too. It's one of those things you just have to try for yourself.

[Doc Highwall]

If I remember correctly 10 grains of Unique with 457385 gave me 930 fps out of a 1884 rifle.

[NHlever]

I think the ultimate for this project; purposefully built with hog killin' in mind, would probably be the old Frank Barnes .458x2" in a bolt gun (Ruger 77 seems right).
Short, heavy barrel, with a can (integral?), and a mount long enough to accomodate scope and night vision accessory in front of it.

As Dad always says; "Wish in one had......."

When I worked at Ruger I suggested that they build a .450 Marlin guide gun on the M77MKII with an 18", or 20" barrel. They had all the tools except the chamber reamers, and headspace gages. The bolt face is a standard magnum, and the magazine was the only thing that needed to be fiddled with for slick feeding. I still think there are those who might prefer a bolt gun for this kind of thing, and it is a pretty easy conversion. Now the .450 seems to be pretty much dead, and that's too bad in a way because some of the things it made possible over the .45-70 as far as application goes were never realized. I really like the 45-70, but that big rim does get in the way as much on some applications as it improves things greatly in others.

Edit: The .458 American is basically the same as the .450 Marlin with a shorter belt which makes it possible to fit in other magnum chambers with much smaller bores......... not so good.

[Potsy]

Thought about the .450 Marlin but wasnt' real sure if it was a std. mag bolt face.
Outside of long term brass availability, don't know why it wouldn't work.

[1Shirt]

Trail boss works well. I have loaded 45-70 with it, and found it to be accurate to 50 yds with the 350 pb lee. However I have also loaded 2400 with charges under most all weight of blts up to 500gr. using min starting loads recommended in the old Lyman manuals. My pet load for 45-70 is a 435 Ohas FNPB over 26gr of 2400 with 1/2 gr dac filler (not a recommendation), in my #1 Ruger. It chrono's right at 1475 avg. It is accurate to 100 and will stay under 3", usually under 2".
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Montana Ron]

I too gotta go with 10 gr. Unique.........everything likes this load perty well......have been shooting it in 45-70 with 457122 at 20-1 and hammers bunnies perfectly and is a true pleasure to shoot.............

[Longwood]

My shoulder is sore this morning.
I shot 60 rounds through the Hiwall yesterday, testing powders.
I decided 10 to 14 grains of Trailboss or 35 to 40 grains of W860 is the max I want to shoot.
The cans fly just fine with the lighter loads and they seem to shoot well enough for plinking.
My paper patched bullets from my homemade molds are working well also so,,, I be happy.
I have a old square can of unique but it is unopened and I hate to break the seal. Unique must be really popular here since I can't seem to find it.