Looking for a new rifle for Louisiana primitive season...

[dntfxr]

Hey guys, I'm looking for suggestions for a "primitive" rifle for our season here. The regulations are specific on which actions are acceptable, single shot, only the older ones and the caliber has to be .38 or larger. Unfortunately that rules out the .38-55 at .375". I had a rifle that I got a good deal on and it was a real shooter. It was a Knight KP-1 in 45-70, bought on sale for 250$ and it would shoot one hole groups at 100y with the Hornady Leverrevoulution ammo. But I let my dear old dad borrow it and he fell in love with it so it has a new home!;) BTW he got 2 deer with it this year, the first time he's been able to hunt in about 10 years! :-) So, here I am back on the market and I'm looking for some suggestions. I really like accurate rifles, of course but I'm open to any sugestions!
Thanks
Brent

[Doc Highwall]

I would check on the 38 cal rule I would not think it means actual bullet diameter.
Some 38-55 rifles here at Cast Boolits use .381" bullets.

[Bullshop]

Just as Doc has said the 38/55 is not a 37/375 caliber but is indeed a true 38 caliber thus the caliber designation. The 38 was the caliber and the 55 I believe the charge of BP.
Most of the new guns I am hearing about in this chambering are slugging at .380+.
Don't get the 38/55 confused with the 375 Win which is 375 caliber.

[dntfxr]

Thanks guys I'll do that, I have a good friend that can tell us for sure but I believe last I checked that is what I was informed. If it slugs at .38+ though, I might be good to go! Any suggestions on which actions? I'll probably have to put a scope on it so the real fancy bp rifles are probably not gonna do. I'd love to find a deal on a high wall or something like that. But mainly I want something that will give good accuracy potential. I've heard the little handi rifles are kind of hit or miss with accuracy, but something along those lines would probably do fine. Any suggestions?

[montana_charlie]

Hey guys, I'm looking for suggestions for a "primitive" rifle for our season here. The regulations are specific on which actions are acceptable, single shot, only the older ones

I had a rifle
It was a Knight KP-1 in 45-70,
I let my dear old dad borrow it
So, here I am back on the market and I'm looking for some suggestions.
I don't know much about the Knight KP1 except that it is a 'kit' barrel which will turn a Knight muzzleloader into a centerfire rifle. But they all look like some form of bolt action, to me. Would the Knight be considered legal in that primitive season which requires "only the older ones"?

CM

[doubs43]

Just my opinion the designation .38-55 should be acceptable.

If a .38-55 designation won't fly then move up to a .40-65, another excellent cartridge.

[Wayne Smith]

You actually have two questions involved here. What rifle or action, and what caliber. By "older ones" I'm assuming you are including all the original single shot cartridge rifles? Any repeaters included e.g. Spencer? Would an Encore be excluded if it were in an older cartridge?

And then there is the budget question.

[dntfxr]

Actually the KP-1 was a copy of the Wurfflein action, similar to a handi. It is out of production now, but it is a fine rifle, heavier than the H+Rs but freefloated forend and not bad recoil at at.
And yes it is technically 2 questions- action and caliber, but Im not really sure what is comercially available in what chambering. Money isnt limitless here either, and I'd like something relatively portable. But if I could get a really nice rifle for <1000 I'd do that vs a handi that may only do 5moa.

This is what I found on the regulations...


L.D.W.F. ISSUES LIST OF APPROVED PRIMITIVE WEAPONS FOR 2008-09 PRIMITIVE HUNTING SEASON
Release Date: 07/08/2008

In a response to the recent approval of Act 51, which partly consists of changing the language from a muzzleloader season to a primitive firearm season, the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (LDWF) has issued a list of approved primitive firearms for the 2008-09 Primitive Firearm Season.

All of the approved primitive weapons meet the criteria set forth by the Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Commission as authorized primitive firearms. The criteria is a single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifle with metallic cartridges loaded with either black powder or modern smokeless powder, .38 caliber or larger, of a kind or type manufactured prior to 1900 and replicas, and reproductions or reintroductions of that type rifle having an exposed hammer. The pre-1900 distinction applies only to the firearm and not the ammunition. All approved primitive firearms may be fitted with magnified scopes.

Approved single shot breech loading primitive weapons:

· Sharps rifles or replicas
· Remington Rollingblock rifles or replicas
· Ballard rifles
· Maynard rifles or carbines
· Burnside carbines
· Frank Wesson rifles
· Farrow rifles
· Remington Hepburn rifles
· M1873-1888 Springfield (Trapdoor) rifles and carbines and replicas
· Snider (British) rifles and replicas
· Wesson & Harrington 1871 rifles
· New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi rifles in caliber larger than .38
· Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885) .38 or larger
· Knight KP-1 in caliber .38 or larger
· CVA Optima Elite in caliber .38 or larger
· Traditions Pursuit break-open single shot in .38 caliber or larger

Non-approved single shot breech loading rifles:

· Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 (Reason: No exposed hammer)
· Thompson Center Contender or Encore Carbines (Reason: Designed after 1900)
· Mossberg SSi Single Shot Rifle (Reason: No exposed hammer and designed after 1900)

A primitive firearm license, formerly sold as a muzzleloader license, is required for the taking of deer during the primitive firearm season in addition to the required basic and big game hunting licenses. During the still hunt and with-or-without dogs segments of the (conventional firearms) deer season, the primitive firearm license is not required.

[montana_charlie]

The regulations are specific on which actions are acceptable, single shot, only the older ones and the caliber has to be .38 or larger. Unfortunately that rules out the .38-55 at .375".
Your use of the word "unfortunately", when surmising the .38-55 is disqualified, caused many to think that you really wish you could use a .38-55. Since almost nobody agrees with you that it doesn't qualify, much of your input has been suggestions on how to rethink that question.

Yet, you lament the fact that you no longer own a 45/70, which (presumably) would fill your bill if you still had it.

Almost nobody has tendered suggestions regarding action type.
But, the list of 'legal' actions is so clearly specified by the regulation, none is really needed.
Look at the list and pick something you like. Ask us if that style is readily available (or Google it, yourself) and get some links to go look at.

Reading about the various styles will also supply information about price range, accuracy potential, and replica availability ... all things which you have mentioned in one post or another.

You say that there is a primitive firearms season in Lousiana, you would like to be equipped with a rifle that allows you to participate, and you are open to suggestions.
Each of us could take a turn at describing 'my favorite rifle' and why you should like it too. Beyond that, I can't imagine what you expect us to tell you.

The best I can do is this ...
If you don't have a preference for something you like, buy nothing.
Someday, if you do get interested in a particular style, buy that.
If you can't figure out what you want without our help, there is no reason to believe you would continue to want it ... after we stopped helping.

CM

[high standard 40]

I opted for the H&R because of price. From what I have seen this is by far the most often chosen rifle. The CVA Optima is no longer produced. Maybe you could find a used one. Most of the rest were out of my price range. Many go with either 444 or 45-70 mine being the latter. Some are said to be very accurate, some not so much. I have been struggling with mine to get usable accuracy. I have taken a few deer with it by keeping my shots within it's limits.

[dntfxr]

Thanks HighStandard40, that's good feedback, the kind I'm looking for. I'll hopefully meet some more nice folks who can give me some suggestions based on their own experiences with actual firearms listed, and their accuracy they have experienced. Thanks again!

[Armorer]

dntfxr, my father in law uses an H&R in 45/70 for just what you are doin over in Beauregaurd Parish. Seems to work out real nice for him. The pigs hate him though :)

my ¢2
Armorer

[dntfxr]

Thanks Armorer, I did like my 45/70 and I took several deer with it out to 200yds. Honestly if I could find another that shot as good as it I wouldn't care what action it was or caliber for that matter. I just figured while I was at it I should check in with the knowledgeable folks here to see if anyone could give me a real translation of what the law meant and make a suggestion as to what would be a good direction to look. I notice some of the rifles it lists as ".38 or larger", others are "larger than .38". Most guys around here just buy a NEF in .444 or .45/70, but I'd kinda like to see what the other options are as I know very little about old rifles. I do think the .38/55 would be a good caliber if it is legal, but if not I'll move on. I guess I should just try to reasearch a few other place to see what I want.
Thanks to all

[doubs43]

dntfxr, the list of approved actions is pretty specific. Among the Sharps, Rolling Blocks and High Walls, the most common caliber will be 45-70. That caliber is also likely to be the least expensive to buy. I have no idea what price you're willing to pay but you should be able to find something of decent quality under $1,000. If you buy used, maybe as little as $600.

The best way to search at places such as Bud's Guns, Ables, Buffalo Arms etc. is to simply search for 45-70 and see what comes up.

If the guns I've listed are too expensive then you're looking at the H&R 1871 types.

Good luck and let us know what you decide upon.

[dntfxr]

I'm thinking I'll try to find a replica high wall or maybe just the H+R Buffalo Classic. I'll probably just stick with 45/70 since it seems .38/55s are not as common anyway. Are there any brands to stat away from?

I do appreciate the pm about the trapdoor too, but I'd like to stick with something that'll handle hotter loads. If anyone runs across any other deals I appreciate the heads up.
Thanks again
B

[NickSS]

I have a bunch of rifles that would meet your criteria and they range in value from under $300 to over $3000. For a light hunting rifle single shot if you can find a used high wall clone for under $1000 Rhat would be an excellent choice. Most of the various rifles of this category usually sell used for over $1000 except for Ubertis and they are not bad rifles. You can occationally find a low quality Sharps clone for under $1000 but these are usually old fifles from IAB in Gardone Italy which is now out of business. These rifles work but are of low quality. I have a couple of handy rifles one in 38-55 and the other in 45-70 and both shoot more than acceptably. I am talking in the under 2 MOA with iron sights out to 200 yards or more. If you get one and it does not shoot as good check out the Graybeard site they have a whole section on handy rifles and how to tune them. Mine needed no tuning.

[cajun shooter]

The H&R Buffalo Classic is the rifle of choice for two reasons. One is price and two is that this rifle is very accurate. One of our forum members used it to hit a metallic ram at 1000 yds. I know of very few places other than a soybean field that has those ranges available. I have seen them in the Baton Rouge area for under $500

[Yellowhouse]

Game wardens aren't going to be carrying calipers. They'll look at the headstamp which will say 38-55 and to him or anyone else denotes .38 caliber. Looks like a go to me. Wish they would pass that law in Oklahoma.

[doubs43]

The latest CDNN catalog offers three different Winchester Hi-Wall rifles in 45-70 for $900 each. They would all be fine rifles although the carbine would be my last choice because of the short barrel. They're on page 58. Call them to check availability; sometimes they're sold out of a specific gun.

[dntfxr]

Man I really like those Winchesters, thanks for the heads-up on that deal! I found the Buffalo Classic locally for under 400, and I'm real tempted to buy it but my lovely wife told me today she'd get me a hiwall for our anniversary! I'm thinking I'll just hold off a couple of weeks and go that route. Thanks again to all

[Boz330]

The last time I fell into that trap it cost me twice as much for her present.

Bob

[dntfxr]

Lol, this ain't your first rodeo Boz! She gave me her wishlist months ago... Oh well, I may as well cash in while I'm at it too!! :D

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I have hunted with a handi rifle , they are just that handi , it would be a no brainer for me and my buget

[Marlin Junky]

I noticed the CVA Optima Elite in caliber .38 or larger is on the list of acceptable guns for the primative season. What about the CVA APEX?

MJ

[dntfxr]

Funny you should mention that, I just got this email back from CVA yesterday. I had asked which of their rifles are legal for our primitive season and if they were aware of the new bill just passed allowing .35Whelen. Here's the response:

"The Optima Elite and its variants are &ldquo;legal&rdquo; in Louisiana. We had the Elite Stalker rifle in .35 Whelen for Mississippi last year. We are getting more .35 Whelen Elite Stalkers this year. I would believe those rifles will sell in Louisiana as well.

Ken"



As it worked out I found a deal on a H&R in .35 whelen today and couldn't pass it up. Honestly it doesn't seem very "primitive" though!

[Tatume]

As it worked out I found a deal on a H&R in .35 whelen today and couldn't pass it up. Honestly it doesn't seem very "primitive" though!

I don't understand why politicians cause confusion about "38 caliber" when they mean "38" as in "38 Special." Virginia politicians are no better. Here the law allows 45 caliber muzzleloaders that fire saboted bullets no smaller than 38 caliber. Again, 38 means 357. Why can't they just say what they mean? (Yeah, I know; that would be expecting far too much from a politician.)

From what I've read in this thread, muzzleloaders are no longer legal to hunt with in the Louisiana "primitive" weapons season. Is there another paragraph that allows muzzleloaders.

It's too bad they had to stick in the stipulation about having an exposed hammer. It would certainly be nice to hunt with a Farquharson (patented in 1872) in 450 BPE. Another nice (and actually affordable) rifle would be the Martini (also from 1872). But, I guess they would have to be used in the modern rifle season!

Take care, Tom

[high standard 40]

Politicians are just not as smart as they think they are. I copied and pasted the following from the LDWF website regarding allowed firearms for the Louisiana Primitive Weapon season.

"New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi Rifles in caliber larger than .38"

Note that it says calibers "larger than .38". For other approved firearms it says .38 or larger. So according to this, at least as it applies to the H&R Handi, even a .38 is not legal.

I know it's probably a misprint, but it says what it says.

[high standard 40]

From what I've read in this thread, muzzleloaders are no longer legal to hunt with in the Louisiana "primitive" weapons season. Is there another paragraph that allows muzzleloaders.

Muzzleloaders are still allowed. 44cal or larger. Also sabots, black powder substitutes, in-lines, and magnifying optics are allowed. Granted not much of all of this can be considered "primitive" but license fees are in steep decline here and the intent is to spur increased interest and participation in hunting.

[Junior1942]

Funny you should mention that, I just got this email back from CVA yesterday. I had asked which of their rifles are legal for our primitive season and if they were aware of the new bill just passed allowing .35Whelen. Here's the response:

"The Optima Elite and its variants are &ldquo;legal&rdquo; in Louisiana. We had the Elite Stalker rifle in .35 Whelen for Mississippi last year. We are getting more .35 Whelen Elite Stalkers this year. I would believe those rifles will sell in Louisiana as well.

Ken"



As it worked out I found a deal on a H&R in .35 whelen today and couldn't pass it up. Honestly it doesn't seem very "primitive" though!It isn't legal. "35" is not larger than "38."

[high standard 40]

As we speak the Louisiana Legislature is considering HCR77. It's a resolution that would bring Louisiana in line with the Mississippi regulations. You can track it's progress here............http://www.mygov365.com/legislation/view/id/4dc8e36c49e51b1c34fd0000/tab/actions/

[dntfxr]

It isn't legal. "35" is not larger than "38."

Haha, no kidding! I should have included that HCR 24 was voted in unanimously last month. I forgot I had posted that on another thread. LDWF meets in July, expect to hear something real soon.http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/53927583