Dooms day rifles.

[tcrocker]

All this talk about the end of the would realy got me thinking about arming my self. I have a few rifls and hand guns now but you can never have all the guns you wont. But eny way I was thinking hard about getting a AR15 but being ex Military Police I know that the AR's must be run wet (oiled) or they will lock up on you. So I got thinking about the old west guns, and I come to the conclusion that I need to get me a Cow Boy Assault rifle I am leaning towards a 92 in 45 Colt . The Puma M92 is a nice looking rifle I like the 20" with octagon barrel. And the M86 in 45-70would be my next rifle after the 92 and thats just because you can carry alot more 45 Colt than 45-70 and I have a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt now. Will thats my 2 cent on the subject what do you think.

[5.7 MAN]

I've never owned a rossi levergun so I am not sure of their durability, If I had to pick a levergun for this purpose I would go Win 94/Marlin 336 with a Peep sight. I already have a M94 in 30-30. If I had to pick pistol caliber gun I would go win/Marlin 94 as well. I do like the looks of those Pumas and was thinking about getting 16" 45 colt to play with.

Dan

[Dutch4122]

Choose a rifle based on how common the caliber is. No matter how many rounds you end up stashing away you'll eventually run out of ammunition. Then you'll be reduced to scrounging or bartering just like everyone else. If you have your heart set on a levergun then I would say go with the .30-30 hands down. Lots of ammunition already out there since the mid 1890's. I would also consider 30-06, .308, .270, etc. For handguns it would be .38. 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Mag, .45 acp.

Going with a caliber that is only popular with a small number of the population is the quickest way to end up carrying a steel club with a wooded two piece stock during a SHTF scenario.

[M-Tecs]

I don't agree that "AR's must be run wet (oiled) or they will lock up on you". Here’s an interesting read http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable

I have a couple of 92’s and 86’s. While they are great rifles they would be far from my first choice for an end of the world rifle. First would be my M1A and second my AR’s. My AR’s are more reliable and more importantly the AR are far more repairable than the lever guns. Broken parts and jams are easy to deal with in the field. I have had a couple of broken parts and other jams in my lever guns that where a major PITA is repair. If ammo weight is an issue I would have both a fast twist AR in .223 and an AR in a 22 cal upper. With that combo I could take anything from mice to moose. I have a couple of Eskimo friends that use AR’s in .223 for Moose and Caribou. Two or three quick shots into the ribs with 55 grain ball drops a moose within 50 yards. I have Native American friend in Arizona that use the same combo to two or three elk per year. If I used it for big game I would stock up on Barnes bullets.

[izzyjoe]

well, i got a marlin 357 a few months back for this reason. next i want to get a 357 pistol too. but a 30-30 is a good idea too.

[Good Cheer]

Though it's terribly ho-hum, a 99 Savage in 308 is pretty hard to beat just because you can make them from other cases. And, the right diameter of slugs can be scavenged from lots of sources. On the down side it has a small magazine capacity.

[johnly]

A simple 22 LR would be on the top of my list.

John

[Phillip]

This comes up every so often, but it is interesting debate on what is the best calibers and guns for an end of the world scenario.

For me, my I deal caliber would be either .357-.38, .44 magnum/special, 45 colt-.45 ACP in a revolver and leaver combo. The reason why I like these calibers, is you could go nomadic and only have to load for one caliber to feed your guns if you had too. You could also carry allot more ammo since it smaller then a standard rifle caliber, like 30-30 or 30-06.

As for autos, for the first few weeks they would seem to be nice, but as one of my favorite movie sayings go's, "Aim small shoot small" usually go's out the window, and before you know it, your out of ammo.

22's are nice and you could carry allot of ammo. But unfortunately you can not reload it. So once your out, your out.

Now for the long haul of an end of the world scenario, the ultimate weapon's to me, would be either a cross/straight bow and a flint lock pistol/rifle combo. You can make your arrows very easily and the same for the black powder and musket balls.

[Artful]

All this talk about the end of the would realy got me thinking about arming my self. I have a few rifls and hand guns now but you can never have all the guns you wont. But eny way I was thinking hard about getting a AR15 but being ex Military Police I know that the AR's must be run wet (oiled) or they will lock up on you. So I got thinking about the old west guns, and I come to the conclusion that I need to get me a Cow Boy Assault rifle I am leaning towards a 92 in 45 Colt . The Puma M92 is a nice looking rifle I like the 20" with octagon barrel. And the M86 in 45-70would be my next rifle after the 92 and thats just because you can carry alot more 45 Colt than 45-70 and I have a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt now. Will thats my 2 cent on the subject what do you think.

Not a bad choice - I have several carbine/handgun combinations and I like the commonality of ammo. I have some lever guns, Marlin's mainly but some Rossi & Winchester. I have some other guns (semi-auto), I have tried it in 22LR, 223, 30 carbine, .30-30, 9x19, 38 spl/357 mag, 375 Big bore, 44 mag, 45 acp, 45-70 - most of the handgun in rifle calibers are based on T/C Contender platform.

I think I would put the AK or AR15 ahead of the Puma myself, as they are more apt to be banned/controled then the Puma which you could pick up later.

But much as I love my lever guns, if I had to choose, I'd probably go for a bolt gun for end of the world - heck lots of cheap surplus turn bolts the have work and continue to work after 20, 50, 100 or more years of use. Mauser's, Mosin-Nagants, Springfields, SMLE etc. You can pick a lot of different calibers 8x57, 7.62x54, .30"06, 308 etc, some are/were so cheap you could buy a lifetimes supply without bankrupting the household. And you can reach out way beyond the pistol round.

One combo cartridge I have been looking at is the 40SW - when Walmart was out of 9mm, 38's, 357's, 44's and 45's they still had 40SW in stock. Sort of surprising and it is an effective round - was looking at the Highpoint Carbine as I have several friends who swear by theirs. And I already have some nice surplus rifles and ammo stocked away.

[Canuck Bob]

The jungle carbine Lee-Enfield #5 Mk1 in Canada. 303 brit is as common as any and it is a proven combat weapon but not as heavy as other battle weapons from WW2. Peep sight, 10 shot clip, bayonet and capable for any creature in our hemisphere. The L-E was also known as a mighty fine club in the trenches of WW1.

[mpbarry1]

Suprised no one has mentioned the 223 in bolt rifle. A lot of brass out there.

[Tracy]

Suprised no one has mentioned the 223 in bolt rifle. A lot of brass out there.

There is now, but I think it may dry up after a TEOTWAWKI scenario. It would be a decent choice though, what with low powder and lead usage coupled with enough power to kill anything that is not actually charging you.
I think the .222 was the rifle of choice for many Eskimo hunters for years, for those reasons.
I would choose my Savage bolt with a .222 barrel, the original .223 barrel put back as a spare, and a complete spare bolt/carrier assembly. Plus a couple more spare extractors and maybe strikers.

[Suo Gan]

444 marlin, can be loaded with homemade black powder, match stick primers, round balls, light bullets, heavy bullets, 44 spls and 44 mags can be fired, its pretty versatile. I am willing to bet that I will be a much better Christian during doomsday than before. I probably will pray every couple of hours, ask God for forgiveness, ask God to protect my family and see us through. In the Bible it says that doomsday will be so horrible that you will want to crawl into the earth and be consumed by it. That sounds pretty terrible. I hope none of us ever needs a doomsday rifle.

[NickSS]

I have lots of guns that would make a good end of world gun but I think that your major concern will be getting food not fighting battles. As far as reloading goes unless you lay in lots of components and have a safe place to keep them you will not be doing much of that. As for carrying ammo around with you any large centerfire will quickly burden you down with lots of weight and you will soon find yourself throwing ammo away if you can;t take it with you. Typically GIs that used rifles like M1s and mausers or even ML rifles only carried something like 100 rounds on themselfs and then had to be resupplied. Resupply may be a problem in such a scenario. Therefore, I would opt for ammo that was light but still capable of defending you as well as taking of various game. So I would opt for a 22 RF rifle probably in a bolt action as in the long run they have less parts and less problems. For the same weight as 50 rounds of 45 colt you can have several hundred rounds of 22 RF and in a survival situation you can easily kill just about any game you can get near with a well aimed shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

if kept clean a GOOD ar doesnt really need oil to run and surely doesnt need to be drenched in oil. Bottom line is if you let a lever gun get filthy enough and dont oil it it can lock up just like an ar. What people dont keep in mind is round count. Most dont think anything of taking an ar out and pounding 500 to a 1000 rounds out of it in a day and then because in has one or two malfuntions toward the end of the session they claim its unreliable. Same guy wound never take a lever gun out and shoot a 1000 rounds out of it in a day without cleaning and most lever guns would stop well before that number. Point is guys bash ars for reliability but most of it is hearsay passed on on the internet. Ive got 7 of them right now in various calibers and all 7 are reliable enough that id trust my life to them. Bottom line is if a guy has a grand to spend on a self defense gun theres not a better combo of accuracy firepower and reliability then an ar.

Cowboys looked for a light handy gun that had some firepower and was accurate and affordable. the levergun was that gun during that time period. If there were still cowboys like the old days theyd be packing ars. There just as handy, have more firepower, are just as reliable, more accurate and cost about the same. I dont think there was a cowboy alive back then when faced with a bunch of angry indians that wouldnt have traded his 4440 for an ar with a 30 round mag.

[lavenatti]

I'll stick with my Mini-30. Plenty of ammo around.

I was never a great fan of the weapon until I used for an "Urban Defensive Rifle" course I took with John Farnum.

Put about a thousand rounds through it in two days, used various kinds of cheap surplus. Never once jammed or had any kind of problem.

Accuracy is good enough for hunting or self defence, I like having detachable mags so I can reload quickly and the gun is light and easy to carry. Dirt didn't seem to bother it any, we were rolling around on the ground and the gun got just as dirty as I did.

[mpbarry1]

would someone dare load homemade black powder in a cartrige gun? I would be afraid of it but id be the guy you never saw in the doomsday scenerio.

[MtGun44]

Also do not agree that AR15 needs to be "wet". I keep hearing this, but do not find it
to be the case in my guns. Light touch of lube here and there, as per the old Vietnam
era comic books, that is all they need.

Bill

[robertbank]

According to some religeous group in the US the world comes to an end tomorrow, May 21. Based upon that bit of insight it really doesn't matter what you get today cuz it all ends tomorrow anyway.

Of course there is an outside chance they might be wrong so I will have hedge my bets and go with my scoped Longbranch. I have a ton of brass for it and hell I'm not going anywhere anyway. There is a Safeway down the street.

Take Care

Bob

[Jeff H]

Better buy it before tomorrow!;)

[Piedmont]

The world won't end until the Mayan callendar says it will end.

[Ziptar]

An official Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock and a thing which tells time.

[robertbank]

An official Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock and a thing which tells time.

:drinks:

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just did a 4 day rifle class at Front Sight. I used my Mini 14 .223. I shot 500 rnds and it never burped or farted even once. The gun is handy and very reliable. I added an Accuracy Systems adjustable gas fixed gas piston to this rifle and choked it down so it doesn't throw spent cases 40 Feet any more. This increased the reliability and accuracy of this gun tremendously. $39.

Availability of replacement ammo is definately going to be the problem to deal with over the long run , Years +. So being able to reload will be necessary. You can get alot of .22cal bullets into a coffee can, and a pound of powder will yeild @ 280 rnds. So with 500 bullets=@4lbs, 2 lbs of powder, and 5 boxes of primers, and a Lee Loader you're good to go for a lifetime. I don't see anyone using 500 rnds of ammo surviving, unless you are into firefights.

IF you don't have to move alot then your reloading supplies can last along time, if you have to move then weight becomes an issue.

The problem with auto loaders is keeping up with the brass. This is where a bolt action in a common caliber such as .223 or .308 will be a good thing. With a hundred rnds of .308 and bullets and powder and primers you could keep running for along time. I like my new Gunsite Carbine for this scenerio.

Quite frankly if the SHTF I think you'll be damn glad you've got ANY GUN period!

All of the stuff we are talking about here is Basic Boy Scout being prepared stuff. If there is no warning you've got to go with whatever you've got. That's where it gets sticky.

Randy

[mroliver77]

I get a kick out of these conversations. IF the power were cut off there would be no refrigeration. How many are equipped to deal with that? In a shtf scenario you prolly would have no running water. What are you going to drink? You need water to survive and will die very fast with out it. How much food you'all have stashed? I live in a rural county of 30,000 mostly overweight people. 2 weeks and all the food is gone. You will hunt? Ya. There is not that much game. If you did get a deer and it is 75 degrees out, what are you going to do with it?

It is always mentioned about packing ammo when on the move. Where are you going? Don't come to my house! I will be hiding behind 55 gal drums of lead.

Really, a gun/ammo is important but a water source should be thought out NOW along with canning tools and supplies, open pollinated (heirloom) seeds, meds, vitamins etc. Heck, most of you would die without a tele. lol

Jay

[Artful]

Jay, is that my tele-vision or my tele-phone. I could loose either of those but my WWW now that will hurt. And you bring up valid points to the thread but his quesion was about his gun not his water or food - but now you have every boolit caster in OH ready to come visit your house at the end of world for all that lead. ;^)

[GabbyM]

A 4" barrel 38 revolver and a bolt or lever action CF rifle. Eighty rounds for each gun.
But ten would do.

After that if you win the fights you get yourself into you'll have all the silly guns and big boxes of ammo you need. Along with your vanquished enemies women and children.

Fact is there are many times over enough ammo and guns in the USA to terminate our entire population.

I'm right in the Yellow zone of the New Madrid earth quake zone. Refugees from that will be in the millions. The area here North of I-70 will be the first spots to the North of the zone to have water and sewer systems intact. Even then in these small towns you can only double the population for a day or two before the sewers shock load. People will be working very hard to keep things moving along. Anyone looking for a fight will just get there tail kicked. Every professional local LEO will have a squad of deputized civilians to work with. Out west that’s called a pose. Good luck to any hoodlums who comes to town or drifts the farms looking to rob and pillage. As long as we don’t run out of whiskey we’ll do fine.

I have enough bullets. Need to stock up on Jim Beam.

[bootsnthejeep]

GabbyM's got it. I've got probably too many guns as it is, but I don't feel the need to get any additionals for any future contingencies.

I've got a 1911 for packing and self defense. Also my tried and true 686, the first gun I ever had and the first I ever handloaded for, and I trust it implicitly. I've got a 03a3 Springfield in 06 for any distance stuff, and my 10/22 and a stupid amount of ammo for it. As for defense of hearth and home? Don't be on the wrong end of the hallway when the 870 opens up.

Stay in your comfort zone, dig in for a few weeks, and wait for the knuckleheads to come to you. Pick up the pieces afterward. Keep the good stuff, barter the rest.

There'll be plenty of armchair operators full of holes if you want to scoop up the odd black rifle here and there. And they'll have all the nifty toys too. Think how much toilet paper and beans you could get in trade for a hardly-used Kimber!

[tcrocker]

That's what I'm thinking I live on a dead end street one in and no way out:twisted:. There is a arteshen well ( forgive the spelling) less than 1/2 mile from my house and lots of tree rats. I could go to my brothers house he has wild hog and deer in his location and runing water. The food and water was not a issue. And power who cares I'll just go to smoking and drying all my meat. I live in a brick house so stray bullets wont be to big of a deal. just stay away from the windows. I have two good securitys gaurds (great dane and a pit mix). I was just thinking of long tearm usability.

[Mossy Nugget]

Well, my guns might not be the best ones shooting, but I will bet they will be the last ones shooting. Charcoal is available in any camp fire, sulphur and potassium nitrate would be left ignored at your local home depot or lowes as soil amendments for azaleas or as stump remover respectively. Yep, BP would be the only thing left when the smokeless clears.

[exile]

I have been looking at a stainless, synthetic stocked, left-handed Savage 30.06 with an accu-trigger lately. The only thing that I don't like about it is that it does not have fixed sights on it.

exile

[tcrocker]

I have been looking at a stainless, synthetic stocked, left-handed Savage 30.06 with an accu-trigger lately. The only thing that I don't like about it is that it does not have fixed sights on it.

exile

That could be fixed by you local gun smith.

[Rio Grande]

...After that if you win the fights you get yourself into you'll have all the silly guns and big boxes of ammo you need. Along with your vanquished enemies women and children....


Sufferin' Succotash Gabby! What would a man do with all them wimmen and childrens?
One ol' lady is about enough to drive me crazy.

[izzyjoe]

let's all pray we never see this day. if you watch the movie (Book of Ely) it will make you think. another movie called (The Road) it' dark and deppresing, but you can learn things buy watching it. black powder will be good in a long term scenerio, cause smokeless is factory made, and anybody with skill can make black powder.

[MtGun44]

Losta folks talking about how easy it is to make black powder. I 'spect most
think that you just mix up the right amount of ingredients and there you are.
Actually done it?

Been there, done that. Doesn't do squat, almost impossible to get it to burn
at all quickly.

I have done it and it is not as easy as most think to make it work well
and it is dangerous as heck. Now that it is 40+ yrs later and I am (I hope) 40 yrs
smarter, I'd not do it unless it was a genuine emergency.

Bill

[Tracy]

I get a kick out of these conversations. IF the power were cut off there would be no refrigeration. How many are equipped to deal with that? In a shtf scenario you prolly would have no running water. What are you going to drink? You need water to survive and will die very fast with out it. How much food you'all have stashed? I live in a rural county of 30,000 mostly overweight people. 2 weeks and all the food is gone. You will hunt? Ya. There is not that much game. If you did get a deer and it is 75 degrees out, what are you going to do with it?

It is always mentioned about packing ammo when on the move. Where are you going? Don't come to my house! I will be hiding behind 55 gal drums of lead.

Really, a gun/ammo is important but a water source should be thought out NOW along with canning tools and supplies, open pollinated (heirloom) seeds, meds, vitamins etc. Heck, most of you would die without a tele. lol

Jay

You're right. I lived offgrid for several years with no running water and limited (home-generated) electricity. I had a propane fridge but it used too much gas, so I gave up on that pretty quickly and learned to live without it. Killed plenty of deer and small game, fished and gardened. Canned or smoked what I needed to preserve.
I still have the ability to do all of the above, but I'm not offgrid anymore.

[Multigunner]

Sufferin' Succotash Gabby! What would a man do with all them wimmen and childrens?
One ol' lady is about enough to drive me crazy.
Make 'em carry your loot till they drop, then feed 'em to your dogs. Also women and children would make fine bait when ambushing other scavengers.

As for weaponry, one should keep at least one compact and lightweight .22 rimfire rifle handy, with as many value packs of ammo for it as feasible. I have a feeling .22 RF ammo would be coin of the realm in a after the fall world.
One .22 RF pistol as companion to the rifle.
Small game should still be around in reasonable numbers, chances at larger game might not be as common. No use wasting meat and lead by using a powerful centerfire for squirrels or rabbits, or decimating the hordes of rats that will emerge to compete for food once sewers and garbage dumps are no longer being maintained and exterminators are out of poisons.

The centerfire rifle choice would depend on expected wildlife and feral animals. A semi auto 5.56 can take care of dog packs very effectively, but in Northern climes bears might be a serious problem, as the occasional Polar bear invasions of small towns has shown.
I've seen news footage of several polar bears stalking pets in the streets of a small town, that was years ago before global warming though.
Some northern towns have very active scavenger bears at their dumps, when trash stops being taken to the dump the bears will go for the former source.

Dog packs would be the major animal problem though. A stranded motorist was eaten alive by a feral pack about a one hour drive from here, in East Tennessee and not in deep woods either.
There are already huge packs of feral dogs in or on the outskirts of some major cities. Fenced in areas like resevoirs and air ports are two places where packs can run free, and many abandoned pets end up there to swell the ranks.
The state has had to work hard to kill off the super packs here. In the sixties and early seventies feral dogs killed off most of the game animals leaving many areas with poor hunting.
A huge cattle killer came through my town years ago, killing sheep and cows. It was finally mortally wounded in a fight with a bull. I believe the bull also died of its injuries, the huge dog was not found dead till days after the fight.

[rays308]

I'll probably get flamed for this but, do we really know what we're suggesting?

Defend your home? Really?

You have, we want, we're not coming to or through your door. We know our weapons will shoot through your walls. Fire just one shot out a window, we know where you are.

We know the gas we syphoned out of a car at our last stop will burn you out. Even if your in the basement. If we can't have your stuff, we're certainly not going to leave you better off than we are and the heat from your house burning will warm us for a while.

Me and my mob don't care if your breathing probably less than you do about us. We don't care if you burned alive, it serves you right for not giving us your stuff. If your neigghbers hear you sceaming from the flames, I'll bet they give us their stuff. We probably won't leave them breathing either though.

Your not going down without a fight, great, we're hungry and/or cold and don't care. We've also had some practice at this game since we've survived long enough to get to your house.

On the move? On a road? Even if you find an uncongested road, easiest ambush we could set up. Try defending your car. Even if we don't have a weapon. Your stuck and its just a waiting game for us.


LEOs are only there if, there is a social structure. Who's defending their homes and families?
I've seen my towns law enforcement and emergency services overwhelmmed by freezing rain more than once.

I found out real fast just how prepaired my locals were when we had a chemical leak at a plastics plant several years ago. There just isn't enough emergency services to go around. No community can afford that level of prepairedness.

Even during good times. If you call 911, what is the response time? You would bleed out well before anyone arrived.

Did you see the news broadcast of New Orleans with the bodies lying in the street with people walking around them. That was someones mother, sister, brother or father. No morgue services either. Their all busy fending for themselves.

I wish us all the best of luck if it ever happens. But, you better get real mean real quick and join a well armed group cause you ain't goin it alone for long unless you have a castle with a 100yd mote and can stay awake 24/7. Or a hovercraft with an endless supply of fuel.

And no, I don't expect to survive it. I have too much that would be wanted and I live in town.

And yes I would try to live through it but, I think we're only kidding ourselves.

What gun for me? Anything I can grab when I needed it.


Its late, I'm tired and you guys are scaring me.


God help us all.

[GabbyM]

Make 'em carry your loot till they drop, then feed 'em to your dogs. Also women and children would make fine bait when ambushing other scavengers.

As for weaponry, one should keep at least one compact and lightweight .22 rimfire rifle handy, with as many value packs of ammo for it as feasible. I have a feeling .22 RF ammo would be coin of the realm in a after the fall world.
One .22 RF pistol as companion to the rifle.
Small game should still be around in reasonable numbers, chances at larger game might not be as common. No use wasting meat and lead by using a powerful centerfire for squirrels or rabbits, or decimating the hordes of rats that will emerge to compete for food once sewers and garbage dumps are no longer being maintained and exterminators are out of poisons.

The centerfire rifle choice would depend on expected wildlife and feral animals. A semi auto 5.56 can take care of dog packs very effectively, but in Northern climes bears might be a serious problem, as the occasional Polar bear invasions of small towns has shown.
I've seen news footage of several polar bears stalking pets in the streets of a small town, that was years ago before global warming though.
Some northern towns have very active scavenger bears at their dumps, when trash stops being taken to the dump the bears will go for the former source.

Dog packs would be the major animal problem though. A stranded motorist was eaten alive by a feral pack about a one hour drive from here, in East Tennessee and not in deep woods either.
There are already huge packs of feral dogs in or on the outskirts of some major cities. Fenced in areas like resevoirs and air ports are two places where packs can run free, and many abandoned pets end up there to swell the ranks.
The state has had to work hard to kill off the super packs here. In the sixties and early seventies feral dogs killed off most of the game animals leaving many areas with poor hunting.
A huge cattle killer came through my town years ago, killing sheep and cows. It was finally mortally wounded in a fight with a bull. I believe the bull also died of its injuries, the huge dog was not found dead till days after the fight.

come on you know you are a sucker for a big eyed kid.

For the wild dogs. That sounds like good eating to me and a reason to have a dozen or so rounds. Just don't tell the kids what it is. Sasage is sasage.

I'm serious about ending up with some jerks women and children.

I’m 55 and my daughters are grown and 1,600 miles away. Other men would have a family to watch. I’d end up with strays and could not turn any away. What would the point in that be. God didn’t put me on this earth to just suck air.

[GabbyM]

I'll probably get flamed for this but, do we really know what we're suggesting?

Defend your home? Really?

You have, we want, we're not coming to or through your door. We know our weapons will shoot through your walls. Fire just one shot out a window, we know where you are.

We know the gas we syphoned out of a car at our last stop will burn you out. Even if your in the basement. If we can't have your stuff, we're certainly not going to leave you better off than we are and the heat from your house burning will warm us for a while.

Me and my mob don't care if your breathing probably less than you do about us. We don't care if you burned alive, it serves you right for not giving us your stuff. If your neigghbers hear you sceaming from the flames, I'll bet they give us their stuff. We probably won't leave them breathing either though.

Your not going down without a fight, great, we're hungry and/or cold and don't care. We've also had some practice at this game since we've survived long enough to get to your house.

On the move? On a road? Even if you find an uncongested road, easiest ambush we could set up. Try defending your car. Even if we don't have a weapon. Your stuck and its just a waiting game for us.


LEOs are only there if, there is a social structure. Who's defending their homes and families?
I've seen my towns law enforcement and emergency services overwhelmmed by freezing rain more than once.

I found out real fast just how prepaired my locals were when we had a chemical leak at a plastics plant several years ago. There just isn't enough emergency services to go around. No community can afford that level of prepairedness.

Even during good times. If you call 911, what is the response time? You would bleed out well before anyone arrived.

Did you see the news broadcast of New Orleans with the bodies lying in the street with people walking around them. That was someones mother, sister, brother or father. No morgue services either. Their all busy fending for themselves.

I wish us all the best of luck if it ever happens. But, you better get real mean real quick and join a well armed group cause you ain't goin it alone for long unless you have a castle with a 100yd mote and can stay awake 24/7. Or a hovercraft with an endless supply of fuel.

And no, I don't expect to survive it. I have too much that would be wanted and I live in town.

And yes I would try to live through it but, I think we're only kidding ourselves.

What gun for me? Anything I can grab when I needed it.


Its late, I'm tired and you guys are scaring me.


God help us all.

OK Ray:

In the big cities all bets are off. But hell those people live like animals already. They better have there own plan because I can’t tell them how to live. They get there food from outside now so what changes there? In civilized counties read up where I mentioned poesies. There are three road into this town. Plus we have rivers and drainage ditches. few dozen men could secure a perimeter. Men who think they will become pirates won’t last a week. Hard times aren’t new to human history and we’ll act no different than people do all the time. Granted we’ll have to endure a pile of whining from the spoiled wimps. “ I don’t want no water. Where’s my soda.”

[cajun shooter]

I will first say that a well put together and taken care of AR system does not need to be run wet and if done may led to a stoppage because of trash in the system from over lubing. I would take a 22LR if given one choice. It will kill even the small wrens and not tear up what meat is there. People fail to understand that a well trained person can survive with this rifle as he will be able to take any weapon needed. Either from those who have died or come to close to the shelter. A 22LR can as seen on recent TV and from personal experience kill a 12 ft alligator which is loaded with plenty of good eating. It will also kill all those peter cottontails with little noise or meat damage. I would want a good supply of bleach or iodine as opposed to another gun.

[rays308]

With all due respect and I do mean I have respect for everyone here. Your creating a fantasy that you want to beleive with rules you want.

Your saying you got the whole town to agree to how you want it to be. ok. What end of the world scenerio are we talking? Are there refugees from other places? One, two people or hordes?

Without knowing the size of your town ask yourself these questions.

How much ground do we need to sustain the town.
Do you have the few dozen men it would take to defend the Parimeter you need to 24/7? Will they do it? Who will it be?

Can we farm and defend it?

Dead animals in rivers and ditches up stream mean typhus and other diseases. Drink up.
You may get to watch your children or grand kids suffer from these diseases.

We won't care if you have roads. We don't have a car. The bridges all fell in or were washed away anyhow. In fact boats will likely be a preffered way of travel. Still extremely dangerous.

We haven't even gotten to those who are unable to help either due to injury, illness or the elderly. Look around your town and pick out these folks. Maybe you have some as family members. What happens to them? Who decides? Will your Posse inforce these rules? Are they still a Posse then?

Your government has a plan. They dug themselves a hole and have a list of people allowed in it. What did they plan for you?

What kind of leadership springs up from hard times? Its happened, look back.
I wish My grandfathers and great uncles were still here to be able to reply to these threads.
They were in the thick of it in Europe. There were people there who were deciding life and death and they didn't care if it was your mother, wife or child.


I wish folks would think before starting these horrible threads. The best you will have it will be the first few days after the disaster. It goes downhill fast from there.

If we want to talk doomsday, lets be realistic. Your either in the disaster zone or in a spot the survivors and refugeees are heading for. Are you just going to shoot them as they pick your tomatoes to eat because they are hungry? If so, the people in the city are animals?

I'm truly sorry. Its NOT going to go your way or mine. It will be much, MUCH worse.

All bets are off all over.

I probably should have stayed away from this thread.

[robertbank]

Rays having been raised on a steady diet of Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, King of the Yukon and having followed David Thompson, Simon Fraser and Mackenzie as they crossed Canada I know how thrilling, exciting and romantic early life was for our pioneers. These threads take us back to those times and we all know we could survive in the new wilderness with trusty old Betsy by our side. Just give us a set of buckskins, a trusty blaster and half of the survival/tactical gear advertized in the latest survivalist magazine and life will be good again....just like on TV.

Take Care

Bob
ps Probably easier to give your children the best education you can, work within your community and vote regularly and forget the doomsday stuff.

[rays308]

Very sorry, I wasn't getting that picture from the thread. I was seeing Mad Max not Davie Crocket.


I grew up in the woods. I've spent many a night in deep woods looking up at the stars. All of my family is KY WV. They tell me when I go to visit, they never see me while I'm there.
I've fished and set snares for small game for a month one time and loved every minute of it.
I turtled and caught frogs with a hook that I tied a ribbon to then dangled it in front of them like a bug. When I came back to the refrigerator I had lost 20lbs.:bigsmyl2:

Now its a couple of days at a time but, with kids and grand kids.

Educate them? You better beleive it. They can all skin anything walking or swimming.

We get together every year usually from jan through Mar to butcher.

They can strip a hog to render lard to.


I carry my 30yr old savage 24 223/20ga with a 7in Redhawk on my belt.


My apologies for my mis-understanding.

[eglidrider]

I have a Hi-Point carbine in 9mm and a 9mm semi-auto carry gun, a SMLE in .303 British that I've owned more than 40 years, (2) 22LR rifles, one semi-auto and one bolt action w/ a scope, a 7-shot revolver w/ a 4" bbl in .357 mag / .38 Splc and I'm about to order a lever gun in .357/.38. The odd ball (for now) is my 1911 in .45 ACP (yes, I could've bought it in 9mm but it just ain't the same "grin factor"). Sounds like the perfect opportunity to add another Hi-Point carbine in .45. :-)

[exile]

Think about this, nastier things have happened when governments and infrastructures function than when they don't.

Don't believe me, ask German Jews, Turkish Armenians, Vietnamese Catholics, Russian farmers, etc.,. The Chinese govt., (our "trading partners", NOT) execute 450 Christians every day of the week, 24/7, and those that are not dead, probably wish they were.

Whose next? Those who oppose the "green agenda", code for, those who worship God rather than the earth.

Not that I am an expert on this stuff, but from reading Matthew Bracken's books, a good .38 revolver might be worth more than a rifle when the poop hits the fan. The powers that be might just shoot anyone with a rifle on sight.

exile

[M-Tecs]

With all due respect and I do mean I have respect for everyone here. Your creating a fantasy that you want to beleive with rules you want.

Your saying you got the whole town to agree to how you want it to be. ok. What end of the world scenerio are we talking? Are there refugees from other places? One, two people or hordes?

Without knowing the size of your town ask yourself these questions.

How much ground do we need to sustain the town.
Do you have the few dozen men it would take to defend the Parimeter you need to 24/7? Will they do it? Who will it be?

Can we farm and defend it?

Dead animals in rivers and ditches up stream mean typhus and other diseases. Drink up.
You may get to watch your children or grand kids suffer from these diseases.

We won't care if you have roads. We don't have a car. The bridges all fell in or were washed away anyhow. In fact boats will likely be a preffered way of travel. Still extremely dangerous.

We haven't even gotten to those who are unable to help either due to injury, illness or the elderly. Look around your town and pick out these folks. Maybe you have some as family members. What happens to them? Who decides? Will your Posse inforce these rules? Are they still a Posse then?

Your government has a plan. They dug themselves a hole and have a list of people allowed in it. What did they plan for you?

What kind of leadership springs up from hard times? Its happened, look back.
I wish My grandfathers and great uncles were still here to be able to reply to these threads.
They were in the thick of it in Europe. There were people there who were deciding life and death and they didn't care if it was your mother, wife or child.


I wish folks would think before starting these horrible threads. The best you will have it will be the first few days after the disaster. It goes downhill fast from there.

If we want to talk doomsday, lets be realistic. Your either in the disaster zone or in a spot the survivors and refugeees are heading for. Are you just going to shoot them as they pick your tomatoes to eat because they are hungry? If so, the people in the city are animals?

I'm truly sorry. Its NOT going to go your way or mine. It will be much, MUCH worse.

All bets are off all over.

I probably should have stayed away from this thread.

Very well stated. In a large scale disaster anyone that tries looting and plundering won’t last long. After that is will only be death, disease, hunger, thirst.

The one scenario that scares the stuffing out of me is a volcanic type winter that last three to five years. In that scenario all infrastructure stays intact but the world starves. In that scenario I believe we would see large scale battles between the haves and have not’s

[rays308]

I remember mount St Helens fallout when I was in High School. In Ohio. Very light dusting on anything left sitting for a few days. Some discoloration to the sky on a couple of sunny days.

I was too young to think about how it effected crops and livestock.

Anyone remember what food prices did the following couple of years?

I know the economy was already in shambles then also.

[robertbank]

Think about this, nastier things have happened when governments and infrastructures function than when they don't.

Don't believe me, ask German Jews, Turkish Armenians, Vietnamese Catholics, Russian farmers, etc.,. The Chinese govt., (our "trading partners", NOT) execute 450 Christians every day of the week, 24/7, and those that are not dead, probably wish they were.

Whose next? Those who oppose the "green agenda", code for, those who worship God rather than the earth.

Not that I am an expert on this stuff, but from reading Matthew Bracken's books, a good .38 revolver might be worth more than a rifle when the poop hits the fan. The powers that be might just shoot anyone with a rifle on sight.

exile

I don't want to be argumentive but look at things that happen when civil authority disappears. Remember the Watts riots in LA. How about New Orleans during the hurricane. The reality is we live in a civil society under the rule of Law. Without the latter our societies break down pretty quickly. Your assumption regarding "the powers that be" is somewhat flawed unless you believe every US man and woman in uniform is a closet anarchist who would follow orders to shoot their neighbours. I find such an assumption absurd in the extreme. I suspect you might, more likely, get shot by a stranger than you would be by your own soldiers.

I guess I have more confidence in our men and women who serve, be that military or police than some.

Take care

Bob

[Hamish]

Funny thing, just this subject is the reason I'm gearing up to buy my first AR. I've thought for a long time that the ultimate survival EOTW would be a semi .22 rifle, but a scoped/red dotted Ruger Mark III would seem like the ultimate hideout/headshot/cat shooter. The point about anyone carrying a visible arm getting whacked would be sensible.

And yes, we are talking about the most scary thing you can imagine, popping a round in the eye of the kid you watched last week at the high school basketball game because he and the team are busting down the door to take what you got.

We have car insurance in case we get in a wreck. Boy Scout motto?? I don't *have* to have ice cream every week, and the young leaves of the dandelion are quite good if you pick them before they go from smoothly rounded to sawtooth.

Beans, potassium permangenate, and all the eley's I can carry sounds pretty good.

[mroliver77]

Jay, is that my tele-vision or my tele-phone. I could loose either of those but my WWW now that will hurt. And you bring up valid points to the thread but his quesion was about his gun not his water or food - but now you have every boolit caster in OH ready to come visit your house at the end of world for all that lead. ;^)

He he, there are about six boolit casters in Ohio and I am one of them.:castmine:
Sorry about thread drift but it amuses me every time I see these threads. Any gun with plenty of ammo and the ability to use it will do.

Again,(here I go again) lack of food, water, meds, heat etc will probably kill you before the roving mobs will.

If it don't stop raining soon NW OH will not be contributing much to the pantry this year!
Jay

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've never owned a rossi levergun so I am not sure of their durability, If I had to pick a levergun for this purpose I would go Win 94/Marlin 336 with a Peep sight. I already have a M94 in 30-30. If I had to pick pistol caliber gun I would go win/Marlin 94 as well. I do like the looks of those Pumas and was thinking about getting 16" 45 colt to play with.

Dan

Rossi 92s are as tough as nails. Plain but hell for stout. They even make a 454 Casull so the strength is there. The gun in my avitar is a Rossi 92 in 38/357. Cheapest gun (apart from a few rough milsups) I have ever bought. I have fed thousands of bullets through it. I gave it to my son to use at the range. I gave him a full ammo tin full of 38 loads. I got busy as I am the secretary of the pistol club and a problem came up. I left him with the rostered range officer. About two hours later, he came up to me with the tin full of brass and asked if I had any more ammo! lol. I told him he just shot of about 6 months supply.

If it was a survival scene, I'd be picking a rifle in 223 and a pistol in 9mm, with a 22LR slide and barrel for hunting small game. A 7600 Police in 223 would be a good choice if you don't like an AR. The mags are interchangeable with the ARs, so if you could scrounge or sway mil ammo and mags, you would be good to go. I'd also have a humungous stock of 22 ammo which would be excellent to trade for things you need.

Thing is, if it really was doomsday, we'de all be toast by the end of the day!

[superior]

I've always considered the 22lr to be my first choice is a survival weapon, however, I'm thinking more and more about the practicality of a good flintlock. If one could stockpile powder and lead, a good chunk of flint and a mold would round out the package. I would not need primers or brass. It wouldn't serve well as a cornfield commando battle rifle, but if I were in a wilderness survival situation,
I'm confident that I could feed myself. (at least):coffee:

[44 flattop]

You're right. I lived offgrid for several years with no running water and limited (home-generated) electricity. I had a propane fridge but it used too much gas, so I gave up on that pretty quickly and learned to live without it. Killed plenty of deer and small game, fished and gardened. Canned or smoked what I needed to preserve.
I still have the ability to do all of the above, but I'm not offgrid anymore.
I'm surprised! I'm offgrid and make my own electricity and use propane. On average per month, using a 21cu ft propane refrig/freezer, a tankless water heater and a propane kitchen range I am using 16 gallons per month. Because of that I am going to swap over to propane for my Honda EU3000i generator too. My gas provider complains I don't use enough propane to warrant my 500gal tank.

If things go bad I'm pretty well set, at least for the short term, up to 24 months. Then I'll have to rely on my 24v freezer and a Bison handpump to get water out of my well without using extra power from my system.

As to the original question, I think a levergun would be a great 'Doomsday' rifle AS LONG as a fellow is in the right area. By that I mean the country. Not 'urban' country, but out along the edges of the woods. I reckon the city folks better have their AK's, AR's and such but for woods people I can't imagine a better rifle for feeding the family than a good .30-30, .44 or .357. Better yet, if there were a 22LR rifle too, I bet that would secure most of the meat a family would eat.

My own choice revolves around the .44 caliber in leverguns and both SA and DA revolvers.

44

[Me not you]

I've been working with a Mini-30 for a while. I've grown quite fond of the little rifle. I do not have access to a benchrest, and mainly shoot offhand due to the danged ticks. I use 25 yard pistol targets (4 inch black) at around 100 yards and do a decent job of putting most of the hits into it. The rest are an inch or so away. Where I live, nearly all shots will be less than 100 yards due to rough country and heavy underbrush. Power-wise it hits as hard at 100 yards (with 150gr spitzers) as the .308 Win at 300 yards or so. Once the ground is snow-covered I can do some prone work. So far it really seems to like the LEE 312-155-2R. These rifles seem to have gotten a "bum rap" in my experience. Once you get away from a benchrest and do some "field" shooting, the tack drivers lose a lot of their advantage. :-)

[BoolitSchuuter]

This thread is a little dated, but got me thinking. It seems there are two lines of thought running in this thread. One being the best or most likely survival rifle. The other being the best defense option.
Frankly, I do not believe one rifle could do both well. Please remember this is MY opinion.
My option for survival would be the .22 caliber bolt action rifle. For a survival rifle, you want it simple. The KISS principle applies here. A skilled woodsman (and I don't claim to be one) can take anything from rats to reindeer with one. Even the cheapest ammo is plentiful, reasonably accurate and easy to find. The disadvantage is that once it's gone it's gone.
Next option would be a flintlock. If bad turned to worse, you could make your own powder and smelt your own lead.
The best defense weapon is the one using the most common caliber at the time. That would be the holy trinity of american marksmanship; the .223, .308, and the 30-06. This ammo is stocked in quantity in every gun shop, gas station and Walmart in the country. Here again, the KISS principle applies.
My personal choices are;
Mossberg M44 US
S&W M&P 15
Polytech M14/S (rebuilt with all USGI parts - by me)
Savage Tactical FLP110 in .308
SA M1 Garand
These are the ones I keep a supply of ammo for. I have others, various shotguns included. The ones listed are my SHTF go to guns.
Where I live, water and shelter is not a problem. There are sufficient like minded people in this lake development to provide for the security of the community. We are far enough off of a major North south route that we probably would be bypassed by any refugee migration. Wild game and fish are plentiful. If this community could maintain its moral and social integrity, our chances would be pretty good I think.

Just my opinion. It is worth what you paid for it. :cbpour::castmine: :lovebooli
:redneck: :drinks:

[gundownunder]

I would start with my 357 rifle / revolver combo and take it from there.
If some moron comes at me with an AR or AK and doesn't know how to use it I just might trade up to an AR or AK, depends on whether he's carrying enough ammo to make the trade worthwhile.

Seriously though, when the smelly stuff hits the rotating device the best scroungers will probably survive the longest. You're gonna have to be prepared to dine on sauteed cockroach and ditch water sooner or later and if you've got a bag full of cockroaches you're gonna have to be prepared to kill to keep it.

Somebody else's wife and kids? sure, bring them along, they'll taste a heck of a lot better than cockroach :-P

[Matthew 25]

I bet after the first 6 months I'd be able to trade 20 tablets of Metronidazole for a 50 Barrett. This is the treatment for Giardia (and many other infections).

My background is medicine and epidemiology so I tend to think disease is the number one long-term threat, along with food supply.

I do think a lever gun is adequate. I really used to think it best until I shot an AR and a SOCOM. Good grief those things are incredible. I think you should get what you think is right, practice a ton, and keep a butt-load of ammo for it. If you decide an AR is better than a lever-action 45LC, then buy one of those later, simple solution.
I pray our preparations are for naught.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Hey: Nobody mentioned the Ruger Scout? It was designed specifically for this scenerio.

Soon there will be a .223 version which satisfy all the .223 guys (myself included)

I have a Mini 14 too, and I would feel good with it as it is reliable and I can carry a bunch of ammo.

I have a variety of pistols , Glocks, my .44's, don't have a .22 pistol right now.

But I think if push came to shove and I could have only one it would be my Mauser .22. It is a single shot bolt action, it was made in 1929 and still will be running if 2529. I can hit a rabbit at 100 yards over a rest any time. Probably the most reliable gun I own.

Like the guy said above, if it really happens, you won't be able to choose. You will take what you can get and probably be damn lucky to get anything.

Just remember "any gun will do, if you will do!"


Being completely unarmed would be really scary, so I'd recommend learning archery too. You can make a stick and a string pretty easily. Better than a club.

At the end of the day, your best weapon will be your brains, assuming you have any to begin with.

Just hope nobody finds out, if you don't.

Randy

Please take notice of my saying at the bottom of all my posts. If this scenerio ever comes to pass, survival will be all about that saying. hint hint.

[greywuuf]

Atlatl is far easier to make than a Bow ;-) and you look pretty primitive trying to use one, but hey it gives the neighbors something to laugh at.

[BoolitSchuuter]

I bet after the first 6 months I'd be able to trade 20 tablets of Metronidazole for a 50 Barrett. This is the treatment for Giardia (and many other infections).

My background is medicine and epidemiology so I tend to think disease is the number one long-term threat, along with food supply. . .

. . .I pray our preparations are for naught.

I wouldn't take that bet. That .50 is good for keeping the zombies away if you live on a mountain, but it turns into an 8000 dollar 30 pound club when your ammo runs out.
A doctor or medic/EMT would be a good skill to have or have in your group. That would be only one of the skill sets needed to survive and eventually rebuild.

Yes, I said group. There is no SHTF scenario where you are gonna make it alone.
I read a rule of thumb that went something like; You can't survive more than 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food and 3 months without hope.

:coffee:

[white eagle]

for me a 12 ga shotgun would be my choice

[GabbyM]

I don't even own a 22 rim-fire anymore. Can load cast bullets on my 223’s for about the same cost as 22 rim fire and less than 22 magnum rim fire. Plus they shoot like 22 Hornet. Some people use a little charge of Bullseye under a plain based boolit for 22 long rim fire velocity but even then you have a 55 grain bullet not a 40. If you don’t want to cast 22’s you can purchase 40 grain 22 Hornet bullets and load them over between 4.0 grains of Unique for about 1355 fps to 7.5 grains for over 2,000 fps.

[Matthew 25]

I don't doubt people can load 38s or 223s or whatever for the cost of high quality 22 ammo, but I have to make the time to reload the stuff I shoot frequently, it's pretty hard to take the time to reload something I'm going to put in a can and leave alone. Plus, when you put your 223 ammo in a can and leave it alone, you just increased the price of your ammo by taking your brass out of circulation. I like the idea of exchanging a $100 bill for 3300 rounds of 22lr at Walmart...much more likely to happen than investing the time of reloading for a stockpile.

BoolitSchuuter: I'm guessing you have never had Giardia or any disease that ends when you die from diarrhea/dehydration w/o treatment. Diarrhea is a powerful motivator, especially in the woods in the winter with no food and no TP! I agree, if you don't have a group or family, what's the point?

[BoolitSchuuter]

. . .BoolitSchuuter: I'm guessing you have never had Giardia or any disease that ends when you die from diarrhea/dehydration w/o treatment. Diarrhea is a powerful motivator, especially in the woods in the winter with no food and no TP! I agree, if you don't have a group or family, what's the point?

You are correct. I have never had Giardia or any other disease that could kill me. . .yet. :bigsmyl2:

[Wheeler]

Skeeter Skelton wrote that the best all-around cartridge for long term survival is the .357 Magnum. It can be downloaded enough to take small game, uploaded in a rifle to reasonably take on any game in North America. With a pound of powder, a few hundred primers, some lead and a small kit of tools, you could cast and reload in the field thus extending your ability to kill game for quite some time.

If you're talking about facing the ravening hordes of urbananites who have discovered that food does not magically appear at the local grocery/big box store, I'd suggest hiding. Or gathering a group of followers and carving out your own fiefdom. Then you can gather serfs to build your castle and moat. ;)

[handyman25]

Well it depends. For defence a M60 with about 100 cans of ammo should get the bad guys thinking sealin and killin is easier down the road. oh and a extra barrel would be nice, they do get hot!!![smilie=f: plus a M1A1 with extra mags.
For survival, a 22lr with a good scope and a extra set of peep sights plus ten thousand rounds would give me some for tradin. I already know how to make a noise reducing attachment, you would need to be very close to hear the 22lr. Add a 1911 45acp with a 500 rounds, or any pistol/revolver you are good with. I have killed anything from a cotton tail rabbit to a 1400 steer with the 22lr.

But this is but a small part of what you will need to live the first 30 days. Water, food, medice and most of all HELP from others.

I hope it never comes.

[Nrut]

I am not going anywhere from where I live now so I can pick from any of the rifles that I already have for what ever need that may arise....
I would have more things to concern myself about than which rifle to use...

Speaking of the stuff that hits the fan, I had better start on digging a new outhouse hole before freeze up..:groner:

[shotstring]

These threads do mostly revolve around daydreams rather than reality but I'll bite.

In the first place, guns don't even enter into disaster scenarios except around the edges for a few sporadic events and to have a security blanket.

The major concern and the major killer in most disasters is hypothermia followed by death from infection. Keeping warm, dry and fed are the major problems and nothing else comes even close. In a doomsday scenario, there will be nothing to hunt, so firearms again take a back seat for providing food.

If everything goes south, then ammunition becomes king, not the type of gun you have. In fact, the main value of ammunition will be for trading and bartering as it will be one of the new denominations of money - small, light weight, in short supply and very valuable. Firearms would be used more as display and threat items than actually fired much I would think. No one is going to have much ammunition and it is extremely heavy to carry anywhere. If there is an advantage to one gun over another, it mostly goes along with the calibers where ammunition is more commonplace such as 22, 38, 9mm, 12 gauge and 308. Still, ALL ammunition will be rare, regardless of caliber.

Full auto weapons become semi autos because no can afford to waste that valuable ammunition. A group would desire large magazine capacity for those attacks where a gang of intruders is involved or riots. The other thing a group would require is a long range firearm that will reach out to 600 to 800 yards so they are not at the mercy of intruders with such weapons.

None of the rest much matters, in my opinion.

[greywuuf]

I think you all have a very "limited" idea of what SHTF can encompass, or maybe its me with special circumstances,
but to me being 100 miles from a road and having your airplane upside down in the river is pretty SHTF. or being 40 miles North of Kotzebue on a snowmachine and breaking through the overflow and getting wet, only to find you cant free the machine, now you are alone wet and on foot in the arctic circle. depends on where you are and what your circumstances are as to what is really important to you. you really think that in any of your scenario's that there will not be huntable small game in Alaska ? and large predators ? Moose can be agressive a rabid fox would take some killing with a stick, or a rabid dog or two, do I think I could "take" a dog? yeah most likely but I would also get hurt. I would much rather shoot it before it got that close. I dont think you can state the "fact" that thre will be no need for guns and there will be no hunting.

a Situation in your parts can very likely disrupt SUPPLY to my parts heating oil electricity food and such but it not likely to lead to the large scale migration TO here that you all talk about. if you STAY in the cities then yes there will be mobs. the farther away from that I can get the better. and there might not be fuel or not more than one tank .. so stocking up on ammo is likely not an option and Black powder of my own devices with some kind of Flintlock might be, after I run out of what I have ..... there is a TOWN her CALLED Galena it was mined here, I might given time be able to resupply my lead stores... I might not but why ridicule me and say don't learn that because that will never happen. After your cabin burns down due to a stack fire and your Stash of primer is gone... and I am collecting smeltable materials maybe It was not so silly or we discover an old piece of mining equipment and steal the babbit bearings...... but we got no primers or we have primers but the powder spilled ( bears will bite the damndest thing when they break into a cabin, so will porky pines ) ) or got two stroke chainsaw oil spilled on it ... we could paper patch a BP cartridge gun ( I can make paper, I have done it... have you ) ?


The point is not every one is in the same set of circumstances and to say your idea of what COULD happen is any more valid than anothers is kinda speculation. My biggest fear is Gangs, mobs roving bands whatever, the rest of it.. weather food shelter Disease me and my family can handle.

Another point that kinda bothers me is the "medical professionals" saying stock up on drugs.... yeah right.. and just how do WE get them ( my wife and all of my immediate friends are either nurses or tech in an ER and we have a "stash of broad scale antibiotics and sutures staples basic stuff ) but no one gives it away and the GOOD things to have are not freely available over the counter. And WHAT IS the shelf life on it, especialy if it gets frozen or is NOT refrigerated? how about FIXING something ? I Do that for most of the medico's I hang with, I am a fair blacksmith and a decent mechanic. aint no ONE thing any more important than another... unless it is the ONE thing you need. the solution is to learn as much about everything as you can, and how about Hoarding and stashing ? Sure it works for a two week snow storm when there is some semblance of order and no looting. What about if you are at work or on a bussiness trip when it all goes wrong, or your commercial airliner goes down ? what you have burried out back or put away forever aint there. Can you make a sling ? or a rabbit stick ? can you even start a fire ? how many of you flint knap ? or know what organs and animal parts have the SALT you need to survive a winter ? Or why people can Die eating rabbits ? ( and no its not because you starve and humans can't get nutrients from rabbits ) You prepare, yourself your surroundings and your mindset, you look around and you use what you have to your advantage. and then you take your chances ... that is all any of us ever get anyway

Rant off
Dan ( done more stupid things than I care to admit) in Alaska


PS forgot to add that I like a M6 scout with the ammo in the stock both a 410 and a 22, stores easily comes in stainless and there is one stashed in most of the cabins I frequent. when I am out and about I am usually carrying my 45 colt carbine because it is handy to carry tough and it has an 11 round tubular mag and will handle anything I ask of it. for 11 rounds I can be pretty fast with it too..... I can put a few more rounds in it without taking it out of action and it is easy to reload for. Suits my needs for now, but then so would a 30-30 or a 22 most times. or a 12 gauge shotgun. Further I LIKE Guns so fixing up a few more here and there "just in case" does not hurt my feelings any.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Grey Wuuf: You hit it right on the head, Great diversity is the key to optimum survival.

It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do, what you DON'T know how to do!

Randy

[Matthew 25]

GW, that IS one heck of a rant!
I didn't suggest stocking up on drugs (especially not illegally), only that they would be important. My point is really similar to yours, don't put all of your eggs in one basket. Don't put all your resources into too many guns and ammo, diversify in food/water/shelter (and I believe medicine).
I don't know if I am a "medical professional", but I am a veterinarian. I have seen too many dogs, horses, and calves sickened to the point of death from GI diseases. It is miserable. I think avoiding dysentery should be a priority.
Looking at historic wars is an interesting way to gauge how people die in adverse situations. A quick internet search suggests almost 620,000 soldier deaths (N&S) in the Civil War: 414,152 from "diseases, etc...", the remainder in battle. Some say 10 died of disease for every 1 on the field in the Revolutionary War. No-one probably has the true numbers here, but the point is food/water/shelter are what keep you alive....some good guns with lots of bullets increase the odds of obtaining and keeping the above.

[greywuuf]

I am not arguing your numbers or suggesting your wrong, but I am going to post a few observations
( having ties with the hospital ER and working with a military and wilderness rescue unit I have drawn some conclusions about life threatening situations and survival )

Food water shelter.... yes and no. most if not all Americans can and likely Should get by on much less food than they do, yes in an unprotected outside enviroment here inthe winter it has been estimated that it takes about 3,000 calories a day just to maintain your body temperature, luckily most winter food are high density fatty foods we need to be less squeamish and learn WHAT we need and how to get it, real food local to the area can almost always be counted on to be complete for your needs , you just have to know where to look. (IE: bone marrow eyeballs and stomach contents of the animals we kill.... without suplemental sources, the vitamins and trace elements and fatty acids need to be found )

Water yeah it takes water, but do you really think that every american NEEDS a water bottle in their car, and has to carry one around with them? Come on people we have conditioned ourselves to be weak and dare I say "stupid" you cant go to the grocery store anymore without seeing people carrying around a dang water bottle.

shelter... hmmm yeah thats nice, but again Like rain really hurts you ? you need to maintain your core temp and not get sunburned. Shelter can be a fallen tree or a spruce branch. I am not suggesting that makes a good living arangement but dont get caught up in what we see ALL to often up here.... " oh my Gawd I'm gonna die" we can do quite nicely on lots less than most think. the Diseases of most wars are also prevalent in MOST walled Cities, or dog kennels or POW camps or day cares. Cram people together in squallor and they get sick and DIE. (and how many of those people came into the war with scondary infections from say impacted teeth and TB, and look at the Food hard tack and dry meat will NOT sustain you indefinately anyway and if I recall canning and preserving food was in its infancy .. how many guys did we poisen with botulism ? not to mention lead from soldered cans) Go out get some fresh air, spend more time on BEING healthy than on GETTING healthy. American's go to mexico and they get the Runs.... guess what? the entire country of mexico gets along just FINE.... you have an immune system and it has a balance some people are more prone to imbalance than others. I am not saying Giardia does not exist, I am saying that people need to take precautions instead of cure. If you get dumped in cold water knowing that you will only live for two minutes at these temps , I can pretty much bet you will only live two minutes.... I have seen guys swim in it every morning. you r expectations and your attitude can make a differance, If you are expecting to Die, you CAN make it happen. Me I dont intend to go because of something I did NOT do, now because of something i Did.... I can live with that (die with that ? whatever )

I will leave you with the old adage " beware the man with only one gun, he likely knows how to use it"

Go learn to hit with whatever you have, love it, know it upside down, in the dark in the rain with numb hands, and KNOW you are going to hit what you aim at, i have a feeling that level of confidence can affect other area's of your life as well.

and go take a basic first aid Course, never know it could save your or a loved ones life!


Homeland defense begins at home
Dan

[Shooter]

Dang, Greywuuf, you sure can type.

I think .30-30 and .38 special would be easy to find,

[uscra112]

Y'all seem to be talking about SHTF and remote areas. 95% of people will not be in remote areas. Except for REALLY remote places, the idea of game for food will disappear in the lower 48 almost immediately, even where I live, where there's so dang many deer that the bag limit for the year is six. Once the game is gone, ammo as trade goods won't be worth a nickel, except for those that want to hunt or defend against our own kind. Sad but true. So pick yer weapon along those lines. In the eastern US where I live, I've picked .357 Magnum as having the broadest capability range, and easy and cheap to reload. Revolver and levergun. Out west you'd need more range, but I'll leave it to you Westerners to make yer choices. In Alaska, if you expect to run into bears, you of course need at least .44 Magnum.

Sanitizing water needs only a little chlorine bleach. For longer shelf life, store chlorine pool shock, but make darn sure it stays dry. A For the REALLY long term, look up "slow sand filters" on the Intarweb. They take a heap of building, but they work, even in God-forsaken places like central Africa, where they've got some of the most unsanitary surface water in the world. If you are Bugged Out In Place, (I am), a Big Berkey filter will eliminate giardia 99.99%, along with every other biological known to man, including viruses. Filtering through charcoal will get a lot of the inorganics like lead and hydrocarbons such as benzine. A Berkey is good for 6000 gallons per filter element, so long as you don't load it with silt.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

since tomorrow did not turn out right, maybe you should just get an AR-15 and buy five or six thousand pieces of once-fired military brass here for about four-cents a case shipped.

If I ever figure out how to post pictures, I will show you all my 23" OAL AR-pistol in 300 BLK.

Rich

[G. Blessing]

I think you all have a very "limited" idea of what SHTF can encompass, or maybe its me with special circumstances,
but to me being 100 miles from a road and having your airplane upside down in the river is pretty SHTF. or being 40 miles North of Kotzebue on a snowmachine and breaking through the overflow and getting wet, only to find you cant free the machine, now you are alone wet and on foot in the arctic circle. depends on where you are and what your circumstances are as to what is really important to you. you really think that in any of your scenario's that there will not be huntable small game in Alaska ? and large predators ? Moose can be agressive a rabid fox would take some killing with a stick, or a rabid dog or two, do I think I could "take" a dog? yeah most likely but I would also get hurt. I would much rather shoot it before it got that close. I dont think you can state the "fact" that thre will be no need for guns and there will be no hunting.


CLIPPED FOR SPACE..

Rant off
Dan ( done more stupid things than I care to admit) in Alaska



:drinks::drinks:

RIGHT!



Grey Wuuf: You hit it right on the head, Great diversity is the key to optimum survival.

It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do, what you DON'T know how to do!

Randy


Right again! My philosophy of life is "jack of all, master of as many as possible".... Lear to do EVERYTHING!


Gary
(Also surviving in Alaska....)

[pricedo]

I have lots of guns that would make a good end of world gun but I think that your major concern will be getting food not fighting battles.

Do you think for a minute that getting and keeping food long enough to eat it & being armed in a lawless post apocalyptic society will be unrelated issues?

Others want that same food & who gets to eat survives & the others don't.

That's where the guns come in.

Once society collapses the LEI (Law Enforcement Infrastructure) disappears & it's a free for all.

The nutcases will be coming out of the closets in droves. The movies depicting a zombie apocalypse won't be far from the truth except the zombies will be very much alive and with a serious interest in your stored food & other supplies & after things continue to degenerate they may (or rather WILL) be interested in your flesh to eat as food (cannibalism).

In such a post civilization society there is only one law MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

There is one good thing about a post apocalyptic society. There won't be a living practicing socialist anti-gunner around. They'll be the first to go once the gloves come off.

** My pick for a post apocalypse gun will be my Ruger M77/22 stainless steel bolt action in .22LR.
for several reasons:

The gun is tougher than nails with a indestructible Zytel stock.

.22LR ammo is the most common ammo on earth and finding some will be less arduous than in center fire calibers.

I can store hundreds of thousands of .22LR rounds in several small depots and have ammo long after the center fire boys run out.

The .22LR is plenty powerful enough to take game.

The report of a .22LR cartridge is minimal & won't advertise your presence.

The .22LR is capable of killing marauding humans who will represent the greatest danger to your life.

Other humans in a lawless society with nothing to lose by killing you are much, much worse than the mindless zombies of the movies.

The most dangerous creatures on earth live with and around you every day. That's what the antis refuse to admit. They think by eliminating objects that they can change the basic predatory nature of human animals that is hard-coded into their DNA. What folly !!

Take away the Law Enforcement Infrastructure & the truth of the above statements will become very apparent, very fast.

[Nrut]

It's +2*F here..
Nature calls..
I think I'll go out to the outhouse and give this doomsday stuff a ponder..:lol:

[44 flattop]

It's +2*F here..
Nature calls..
I think I'll go out to the outhouse and give this doomsday stuff a ponder..:lol:

Lets hope 'doomsday' is when you get done in the outhouse and you realize there is no toilet paper and the house is 100' away at 2 degrees....:shock::lol:

44

[pricedo]

Lets hope 'doomsday' is when you get done in the outhouse and you realize there is no toilet paper and the house is 100' away at 2 degrees....:shock::lol:

44

And if you were so "full of it" that in your haste to keep from filling your underwear:takinWiz: you forgot your gun by the kitchen sink and a member of another band or gang of marauding humans is waiting outside to finish you off once you step out or maybe he/she won't be courteous enough to wait that long & shoot through the walls of the outhouse & finish you off "on the throne".

In a post apocalyptic world you will need to be armed all the time, including the time to perform necessary bodily functions like going for a krab.[smilie=l:

[Nrut]

Just got back..
Feel better now that's for sure!:grin:

44 flattop,
I have forgotten the a-wipe more than once, but have always cought my mistake before hand.. (pun?)

pricedo,
My outhouse doesn't have walls or a roof (it's under a big spruce tree) so I can see the marauders coming from a distance..

[robertbank]

pricedo I think you are letting your imagination get ahead of reality. Forget the doomsday stuff and enjoy life. You get one trip around and worrying about what you can't control isn't going to do much good one way or another. Hoping for it or preparing for it isn't going to make it happen any faster.

Temperature up to -2C or around 28F. I hear Arizona calling. It is time for the wife and I to have a talk about surviving one more winter up here.

Take Care

Bob

[Nrut]

pricedo I think you are letting your imagination get ahead of reality. Forget the doomsday stuff and enjoy life. You get one trip around and worrying about what you can't control isn't going to do much good one way or another. Hoping for it or preparing for it isn't going to make it happen any faster.

Temperature up to -2C or around 28F. I hear Arizona calling. It is time for the wife and I to have a talk about surviving one more winter up here.

Take Care

Bob
Bob,
Just make sure that you have enough gas money to get back..
I have spent 9-10 summers, simmering in Yuma and I'll take these winters any day!

[robertbank]

Well I am not so sure I would summer down in Arizona but the winter period looks awful inviting.

I flew down to West Texas early in May back in 1979 for a drilling rig party. Stepped off the air conditioned jet into 110F with zero humidity. I thought I stepped into an oven. I left Edmonton a few hours earlier with temperatures in the high 40's. Talk about a shock to the body.

Take Care

Bob

[pricedo]

pricedo I think you are letting your imagination get ahead of reality. Forget the doomsday stuff and enjoy life. You get one trip around and worrying about what you can't control isn't going to do much good one way or another. Hoping for it or preparing for it isn't going to make it happen any faster.

Temperature up to -2C or around 28F. I hear Arizona calling. It is time for the wife and I to have a talk about surviving one more winter up here.

Take Care

Bob

Who's worrying and who is hoping for it and who wants to make it happen any faster? :confused:

We're just talking here.

I think what I'm saying is absolutely truth & reality & you think it's off the wall fantasy & paranoia.

I sincerely hope that fate doesn't decide to put our theories to the test to see which of us is right.

[robertbank]

Who's worrying and who is hoping for it and who wants to make it happen any faster? :confused:

We're just talking here.

I think what I'm saying is absolutely truth & reality & you think it's off the wall fantasy & paranoia.

I sincerely hope that fate doesn't decide to put our theories to the test to see which of us is right.

Well I suspect we both will die having lived a more or less peaceful life.

As an aside I am betting on a 38spl/.357mag revolver and carbine in the same caliber. Easy to load and ammo is just about everywhere.:lol: I like to hedge my bets.

Take Care

Bob

[exile]

Just reading this thread and noticed that I had already commented. However, you guys have convinced me that I need some sort of rifle in .223. (Common caliber, uses less powder to reload, etc.,.). I have a friend who hunts deer with a .223 quite frequently, he says they drop like a stone. Probably not the best caliber for deer, but it is legal in NE. May go for a bolt rifle, possibly a Thompson Center Encore single-shot.

Having said that, I will add, Armaggedon is not a world-wide event, it is a specific valley in Israel where God will judge his enemies (Joel 3:1-3). Likewise, "Doomsday", despite the popular connotation, will be when Christ returns to judge the earth. (Matthew 24:30).

Still, barring those two events, I say a light, dependable rifle in a common caliber would be a good idea. As I said, I would probably go with a bolt-rifle in .223, but an SKS in 7.62 by .39 doesn't sound too bad either. :happy dance:

exile

[pricedo]

Well I suspect we both will die having lived a more or less peaceful life.

As an aside I am betting on a 38spl/.357mag revolver and carbine in the same caliber. Easy to load and ammo is just about everywhere.:lol: I like to hedge my bets.

Take Care

Bob

Already got the Rossi 92 lever in .38 SPL/.357 Mag.

Nice little gun.

A little work with a 3 sided file & a small electric drill mounted grinding stone made it slick as frogs snot.

My little .38 SPL Colt Cobra & speed loader will be my constant companion.

If there are more than 12 in the zombie "herd" things could get "hairy". ;)

[waksupi]

Lordy, I wish these mindless topics would stay on other forums.

[Ziptar]

Lordy, I wish these mindless topics would stay on other forums.

One can hope but, its all over the Internets nowadays.

This thread is now a for real Doomsday Zombie. It was dead for almost 3 months but, now... IT IS ALIVE!!!

After reading so many of these threads over the years I finally came up with my own SHTF / Doomsday / TEOTWAWKI plan.

I'm going to grab my lever gun and run butt nekkid all over post apocalypse creation wearing nothing but a belt, holster, revolver and a smile while screaming obscenities at every person I come across until I'm shot or eaten by zombies.

Not only am I not interested in wasting time "prepping" for the fantasy doomsday worlds envisioned in these types of threads, I sure as heck don't want to be around to "survive" in one.

So when you guys with your common caliber doomsday rifles see a smiling armed obscenity screaming butt nekkid guy running at you [smilie=s:, aim straight and start blasting.

[Clinebo]

The hell with Zombies.....I'd just like to terminate a low-life or two. Joseph Duncan being number 1 on the list.

[pricedo]

Lordy, I wish these mindless topics would stay on other forums.

No kidding !

It started in the dumpster and got progressively worse from there.

The Night of the Living Thread. :bigsmyl2:

[Taylor]

Never had my XM16(1st issue when I went in) cause any problem's,even with blanks.Shot the Combat Infantry match with it in 1980.Actually I have had more issues with the AK than an M16.

[Ziptar]

No kidding !

It started in the dumpster and got progressively worse from there.



Well then, lesson learned I'd say.......


http://www.ziptar.com/images/Poking_a_dead_doomsday_thread_is_a_really_bad_idea .jpg


"This was a bad idea."*

* - The narrator of "Axe Cop" Episode 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXXbtum8Fqk). When one of the Snoward kids, upon seeing the snowman and the tree, says "I'm gonna poke'em."

Same could be said here, poking a dead doomsday thread is a bad idea.

The next time you come across one in a dumpster thats been dead for ~3 months or more, I'd suggest you don't poke it!

Thats good advice, not just for this forum but anywhere on the Intarwebz.

:wink:

[robertbank]

Lordy, I wish these mindless topics would stay on other forums.

I think we all agree. I am going to close it. IF anyone else wants to contribute just PM me and I'll re-open it reluctantly.

Take Care

Bob