500 S&W Encore now a shooter! :)

[twoworms]

I found the load that works in my 20" Encore.

Today I fired a 9shot 5.25 ctc group at 100yds, 8 of the 9 into 3.25". An 8shot group before that into about a 5.5" group. The ammo was loaded to the handgun OAL.

Why so many shots, to see if the barrel fouls and shots start to go wild.
The first group I shot with the same boolit seated out longer shot into 7/8" ctc on the last 3 shots, it took 3 shots that where off the paper to foul the barrel before it started to shoot.

I now have 50 rounds of that same load to test next time out. I'm thinking the 20" barrel is going to be cleaned a lot less.

There is hope.

Tim

Load data:
11.5 gr Unique, Win LR, Starline Brass
Lee 440 .501 mold cast with WW and a Gas Check
Lubed with One Shot Case Lube.

[44man]

It just doesn't sound right to have three shots shoot off paper before the gun settles. Usually only the first shot from an oily barrel will stray and not that far.

[twoworms]

44man,

My first test with dry cast boolits took 5shots to settle down then it shot 5 shots under 2" ctc with 4shots going under 1.25" at 50 yards. But this ammo fouled the barrel with lead for about 1.5" long in front of the leade.

So the next thing I wanted to try was very little lube on the boolits, hence the use of the One Shot Cast lube. It seemed to work, as the barrel was not fouled with lead at all. And I was getting hunting groups at 100 yard with my load.

I plan to test again, starting with a clean barrel and the longer OAL load... I can see it taking a number of shots to settle with a clean barrel. This Encore seems to like a dirty barrel... :)

Tim

[C A Plater]

My OTT Encore barrel really seems to like 440 grain WFN GC over 40.0 grains of WC680 (AA1680) using CCI-200 primers in Starline brass. This load chronographs an even 1650 fps from my 20" barrel and make big clover leaf groups with iron sights at 50 yards. Very consistent velocities too with the SD of 9.7 and an extreme spread of 41 fps.

[twoworms]

This is my first Encore in 500 S&W and my 2ed 500S&W. I have a S&W with a 4" barrel that I like shooting plinking loads with. It seems to get along well with my 440 gr cast boolits.

I have shot it and the 20" Encore with a max load of Little Gun, its a blast... From the hand gun they run 1380 fps, I can't tell you how fast they go from the 20" Encore. (Let's just say the first shot was a little low.) But my plinking loads from the handgun go 800 fps and from the rifle about 1000 fps.

Tim

[twoworms]

I test fired 50 rounds of what looked like my best load last time out. That load was the longer OAL load with the One Shot Lube. I fired the a few shots to foul the barrel then could not find the paper at 100yds yard. The load was shooting into something like 18" groups. The sad part is I only had one load to test with me that day. (What a waste of time.)

I plan to load some more rounds at both handgun OAL and the longer OAL, but this time I'll lube with them with just a small amount Lee Alox.

I should go back and change the title on this to, 500 S&W now a shooter now its not... :)

Any help on this project would be great.

Thank you,

Tim

[twoworms]

The plan now is to try the short OAL boolites loaded as before. That load was 11.3gr Unique and the Lee 440gr gaschecked boolit lubed with Hornady one shot spray case lube. I'll clean the barrel, wipe the oil out with one pass then shoot groups at 100yds. THe reason for the one shot lube is the fouling in front of the leade last time out with boolits lube with Alox.

This should give the same groups as last time out, 4" to 5.5" ctc at 100 yards.

If anyone has a better powder/ lube combo in mind that I could try I would love to hear it.

Thanks for your help.

Tim...

[44man]

I shoot the .44, .45 .475 and 45-70 revolvers and lube can make or break accuracy right now even if you have zero leading. I used to use LBT Blue and it was good, no leading. I tried LLA with dismal results and a bore full of lead. Then I made some Felix lube and cut all of my groups in half. Lar's Carnauba Red does as good. My 50 yd groups with every revolver go under 1" at 50 yd's and I have a 1-1/4" 5 shot group with my old .44 at 100 yd's. I put 4 out of 5 in the same ragged hole at 100 yd's with the 45-70. Fifth shot was out 3/4". The .475 is scary accurate with many 50 yd groups at 5/8".
If I were you I would stay with the same load and test the lubes. You will be amazed at the differences. You seen that right away with the one shot. I don't like the dry boolit idea.
See if you can find a load for HS-6, it is very accurate.

[twoworms]

44Man,

I think I'll try other lubes like you said, it sounds like a place to start. I'll ask Hackleback if he has any Felix lube or Lar's Carnauba Red.

I would love to get this barrel shooting good groups at 100 yards.

Thanks for the post, and your thoughts.

Tim.

[44man]

You might want to consider the twist on your gun too. It just might not shoot light loads. That has been my experience with all of my revolvers and the few TC's I had. Some like right at max and some just under. Most like a heavier boolit then standard too. Since the .500 is more for hunting, I don't see a reason for light loads anyway. Even more reason for a good lube also. I understand you want to plink and have lighter loads for comfort but it doesn't always make the gun perform. Sometimes we have to have recoil. Those TC's are a bear with hot loads! I shoot my BFR .475 Linebaugh with hot loads one handed a lot. The 30-30 Contender I tried that with beat my knuckle so bad I couldn't take more then a few shots. I never liked how they handle recoil. I shot IHMSA with mine and could never understand why it didn't bother me from one handed Creedmore but standing offhand hurt like the dickens.

[twoworms]

44man,

My 20" long rifle barrel is 1 in 18 twist, my hand gun is 1 in 18.75 twist (Shooting Times Oct 2004). I load the 440gr to 800 fps in the hand gun and to 1000 fps in the rifle barrel. They shoot well from the hand gun at 25 yards. I have not shot past 25yds so I can't say past that how then do. I am looking at other loads, something in the 1400 fps range but have not found it yet.

You're right I do like to plink with big boolits and that my be my downfall with this rifle boolit combo. But then if getting a new rifle boolit combo to shoot well was easy, what fun would it be?

Thanks for your help, I'll keep trying.

Tim

[44man]

If you find a lube that works for you, then try a slower powder like 296. I am sure someone has a good load with it for you. I will see if I can dig up some loads for you.

[44man]

15 gr's of HS-6 will give you about 1120 fps. Try it and let me know.

[44man]

I contacted Hodgden and they have no info on HS-6 for the .500 and can't recommend a load. I use 15 in the .475 and I read on the web about using it in the .500.

[twoworms]

I fired the 500 S&W again at 50yards and at 100 yards. This time with the shorter OAL loaded with 11.3 grains of Unique. The groups ran like before, 4" to 5" ctc at 100 yards.

I shot a six shot group at 50 yards that was under 1" ctc. I also found that the forend shoots lose and the groups go bad real fast. I"m going to try and get hold of some Felix lube and finger lube a few rounds for the next day at the range.

Can anyone help me out with a sample of Felix lube? I would finger only about 50 boolits or so for the test.

Thank you,

Tim

[Dye]

I fired the 500 S&W again at 50yards and at 100 yards. This time with the shorter OAL loaded with 11.3 grains of Unique. The groups ran like before, 4" to 5" ctc at 100 yards.

I shot a six shot group at 50 yards that was under 1" ctc. I also found that the forend shoots lose and the groups go bad real fast. I"m going to try and get hold of some Felix lube and finger lube a few rounds for the next day at the range.

Can anyone help me out with a sample of Felix lube? I would finger only about 50 boolits or so for the test.

Thank you,

Tim

Tim
P-M me your address and I will send you some. It takes a couple hundred bullets to run a test

Be carefull Dye

[twoworms]

The Felix lube is on the way. Thanks to all three (Dye, Felix and Sundog) of you for the sample of Felix lube, this site rocks with some of the best folks around.

I can't tell you how much the good people here have helped me this past year or so. I'm new to casting, I know it shows... And have learned so much here its been a big help.

Keep up the good work guys.

Tim

[twoworms]

Dye,

I got the lube you mailed today. Thank you very much for the sample, it will be good to try a new lube with my Encore.

Thanks again,

Tim.

[Hackleback]

[smilie=1: What about me ??? I give you all sorts of stuff[smilie=1:

[twoworms]

Hackleback,

If you want to try the lube let me know. Maybe we can get your 8MM to shoot with it... :drinks:

Tim

[twoworms]

Today I loaded 100 rounds of ammo Felix lubed, I'll test them ASAP and post how things turned out.

Tim

[twoworms]

Dye,

A castboolits member came over tonight and I gave him part of the of Felix lube you sent me, some .314 dia 90gr soft lead boolits to try and some 7mm Mag Brass. A 720gr .459 dia boolit and a 700gr .501 dia boolit for show and tell.

Tim

P.S. Thanks again for the lube.

[BigSlick]

Not to stick my nose in where I wasn't invited, but I shoot a lot of 500SW and have worked a range of powders and bullets over the last year and a half.

If you're looking for accuracy with the 440, try a load with 34gr of H4227. H4227 has been discontinued by Hodgdon since they acquired IMR, but in actuality, IMR4227 was dropped and H4227 simply relabeled as IMR 4227. I guess that's what you call marketing genius.

The H4227/IMR4227 (new) can be distinguished from the old (genuine) IMR in two ways:

IMR powder is packaged in a paint thinner can like IMR has used forever and lists the country of origin as Canada (the old DuPont). The H4227/IMR 4227 is packaged in a plastic cannister and list country of manufacture as Australia (ADI powders).

Skip the old IMR 4227. It is a PITA to load since it meters like shredded wheat.

The new H4227/IMR4227 is a short cut extruded powder. It is one of the Hodgdon Extreme series of powders, mostly insensitive to temp changes. It meters like water.

I've shot a lot of LilGun, H110/296, TG and many others thru the beast. None come close to the accuracy of the H4227 loads in my experience. Performance is there too, without the punishing recoil of LilGun or H110/296.

1680 is a waste as is 4100 and the absolute worst I've ever tried is 5744. AA#9 shows promise with lighter bullets, but gets flaky with anything over 400gr in my experience. Spreads open up quite a bit.

Longshot is a pretty good powder for a low-mid range load, with TiteGroup being pretty good for light loads, should you be of a mind to use a powder with a lower load density.

I've loaded all of the ones I referenced above in cannister powder and surplus equivalents (where available).

One honorable mention must go to H335 (WCC844). Not a top end performance load, but suprisingly consistent with spreads usually in single digits.

FWIW,

'Slick
________
MEDICINAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES IN BAKERSFIELD CA (http://dispensaries.org)

[44man]

Bigslick, have you tried the new 4227 with a hot gun on a hot day? I had fits with the older H and IMR's shooting IHMSA with the .44. A real hot gun would really make the stuff go nuts. It shot great in the .357 Max but in the .44 it would hit lower and lower with each shot. At 200 meters I was 16 clicks over my normal setting and hitting 50 yd's short. Primers would flatten more and more as the pressure increased. Reducing the load did not help.
I switched to 296 and got it sighted just before the next shoot which was Ohio State. I won it by hitting 79 out of 80.
I stay away from that powder in the larger bores! It was accurate in a cold gun and shot nice groups if only shot three to five shots at a time.
If the new extreme stuff is the same old powder in a new dress, I will stay away from it in anything over .357.
Yes, both brands gave me the same trouble!

[BigSlick]

Well... I'm from Texas, so yeah, I've tried the powder on a 100* + hot day :Fire:

In testing, I have found Federal mag primers give me similar behavior with the 4227 loads in the 500. The issue seems to be entirely primer related. I switched to WLP and things seemed to settle nicely. I haven't seen the symptoms at all with std primers. Federal LP Magnums seem to be the worst offender.

CCI and Federal standard primers leave the gun a tad sooty, but the WLP seems to be a good fit.

Brass selection will have some effect as well. Starline and CBC (MagTech) brass have slightly less case capacity than most other headstamps, so I adjust the charge accordingly. Hornady has the most capacity, but I shoot the lightest loads only in Hornady brass since it has a slightly thinner web than other brass than I am aware of.

I have only tried the H4227 in the 500SW, 32 H&R and 22 Hornet. I don't shoot a 44 or a .357 so I don't have any personal experience with those. A good friend of mine uses it with .41 Mag and loves it.

FWIW,
________
LovelyWendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[twoworms]

BigSlick,

Thanks for the post. I need all the help I can get with this boolit rifle combo.

I do like to plink, so I'm looking for light loads that shoot well.

Tim

[44man]

My troubles were with the .44 and .45 Colt. I only use fed 150 primers even with 296 so mine was not primer related. I don't have to go to mag primers until I load my .475 and I use LP mags in my 45-70 BFR.
I tried 4227 in the 45-70 and accuracy was very poor. 4759 will punch 9/16" groups at 50 yd's from this revolver. I have been able to keep all shots on steel at 500 meters with my own cast boolit.
I haven't tried it in the .475 so I don't know what it will do in the larger cases and it just might be OK. It is a very touchy powder and can spike pressure fast.
4198 does the same in my 45-70 where most brass just falls out but others need rapped out with a stick. I don't like the pressure excursions with loads under max. The strange thing is that 4198 works just fine with a jacketed bullet of the same weight so I figure it needs the added resistance of the bullet to burn evenly and predictably.
However, all loads in the .44 and .45 with 4227 were shot with jacketed.
Some powders are very cartridge specific and work great in some but not good in others, even dangerous.
It only takes one bad experience with a powder in a certain cartridge to make me steer clear of it and find a better powder.

[BigSlick]

I understand that for sure. I don't shoot HS-6 in 40SW for the very same reason. It spikes all at once, even with less than published max loads, depending upon something as simple as bullet choice (same weight and pretty close profile e.g. Rainier plated vs Berrys in a 155gr FP).

500SW brass is all over the place with regard to capacity too. As much as 4% variation from one to the next. A compelling reason to segregate brass or settle on one headstamp when working up a load.

I wouldn't shoot a upper mid range load in Hornady brass, new, once fired or otherwise. I like Hornady brass too, excellent quality, just thinner web than most and the pocket is made for LP rather than LR (in 500SW). I stuck a cylinder full last year with a load of 2400. No unusual pressure signs other than nearly impossible extraction. Primers looked fine, spreads were tight and accuracy was good. Even a little sooty to boot, so I didn't *think* my load was overly hot.

Same load with other brass extracts fine.

I don't push the envelope when I load unless I do a thorough workup, and then only rarely. I don't usually find max loads deliver the best accuracy. The 50 AE has been an exception to this. Max loads seem to deliver the best accuracy with H110 and Longshot. H110/296 is great for performance, but the light show kinda detracts from the experience a little for me.

I would *really* like to work with the 500 in a WWG guide gun or the like. I like the 8" S&W, but I think this cartridge could do so much more in a good strong rifle. An Encore seems perfect. I have put off buying a rifle for it, until someone else ginuea pigs it. Not much rifle data out there at present.

Thanks for the info on your experience with 4227 44man, I will take extra care the next time I load it and pay close attention to it for any of the signs you have seen.

I'm one guy with one gun and just my experience, I can't possibly see the load perform in all circumstances. Your feedback will help me to remain vigilant, so I don't blow myself or my 500 to kingdon come ;)

I very much appreciate the help.
________
Hotels In Mexico City (http://mexicocityhotel.info)

[44man]

I also have that trouble with Hornady .475 brass. I can shoot the Lee bullet with 26.5 gr's of 296 and cases fall out. I get super accuracy. When I shoot my home made boolit with that load, the brass sticks. What makes me mad is that load is so accurate it is scary. My first five shots cut just over 1/2" at 50 yd's but the brass was too tight. I reduced it by 1/2 gr and have to settle for around 1" groups. The only big difference in the boolits is that mine has a gas check.
I have been planning on seeing if Starline has the brass but I am kind of broke right now, retired on a fixed income has forced me to make my own boolit molds.
Here are, starting on the left, the Lee, my WFN and the target shot at 50 yd's with it, my GC which shot better but too hot with the load and another that didn't pan out.

[twoworms]

Today I test fired about 50 of my 440gr WW cast boolits lubed with Felix lube. The load data looks good at this point. As it was very cold and the wind was blowing a bit to hard at 100 yards I'll have to shoot again.

Having said that I shot a 4shot group at 100 yards right at 3.5" ctc with the 5th shot going low right it opened the group to 6"+. I'm not sure if the bad shot was me, the cold fingers and all or a bad boolit. The other 5 shot group at 100 was right at 4.85"ctc. but there was lots of heart beat in the scope during the 5 shots.
The other 40 rounds I fired to get sighted in, I also let two young guys at the range fire the Encore rifle. Had it not been so cold I feel I may have shot a little better.

The barrel did not show any lube fouling as in the past with LLA lube, and wiped clean with one pass. This is a huge plus over the LLA lube and the fouling in front of the leade. I also had problems with my scope slipping forward in the rings again. This rifle load combo is hard on scope mounts and rings.

Many thanks to DYE for the sample of Felix lube and to Hackleback for his help on this project.

There is much to be done, and little time to do it.

Thanks again,

Tim

[44man]

Shooting revolvers, I have learned a lot about scopes. I have one of the first Burris variable pistol scopes and it is too heavy. I put it on my .44 to work loads and could not stop it from slipping. I lapped the rings, tried tape, paper, rosin, you name it. Even cranked the rings tighter then allowed. I tore the scope tube up anyway. Can you imagine what would happen if I put it on my .475?
Anything that has a lot of recoil needs the lightest scope you can find. You want the scope to come back with the gun, not try to stay in place from inertia as the gun comes back under it.
This is something many fellas don't think of when shopping for a scope and can cause a lot of grief.
Some scopes have heavy internals that are not anchored properly. Some elements are just glued in. A few shots will gut them. This is a big problem with the cheaper red dot's too. The glass will pop out. I use the Ultra Dots because they take the recoil. Believe it or not, I have a Tasco 2X pistol scope that takes all the recoil any gun will put out but it is too dark for hunting.

[twoworms]

44man,

I was thinking about the same thing, get a lighter scope and maybe it will stay put. The scope I have on it right now is 3x9 Vari X II. I'll keep working on it, maybe someday I'll have some pics to post.

Thanks again,

Tim

[BustemAgain]

44man,

I was thinking about the same thing, get a lighter scope and maybe it will stay put. The scope I have on it right now is 3x9 Vari X II. I'll keep working on it, maybe someday I'll have some pics to post.

Thanks again,

Tim

Tim,
I can help with the scope slipping problem. I was plagued with this problem in the past on several lightweight hard kickers. Here is the solution I came up with and it has yet to fail me. First remove your scope and rings, degrease the inside of the rings and the tube of the scope with Acetone. Next mask off the rings so only the inside bearing surface is exposed. Here comes the key ingedient, Duro All Purpose Spray Adhesive . Spray a thin layer of this on the inside of your rings. It has a rubbery consistancy and remains so after it dries. Remount your scope and I guarantee that your scope will never slip again. An added bonus is if your scope were new it would never suffer a ring mark either.

[44man]

I tried that and also Pliobond but my scope was just too heavy for the recoil. Kind of disconcerting to see strands of glue stretched out from the rings. Short of glass bedding the scope, I gave up. I use the scope for testing my 7mm single shot pistols now. I won't put it on a big bore again.
All scopes and rings must be degreased before mounting in any way.
By the way, the tubes on Burris scopes are very soft. The tubes on my Tasco's are very hard and no marks are left on them from rings.
You have to watch the cheap red dots too because mounting a ring over a lens can break it. I am carefull with the Ultra Dot too and am carefull where a ring is. Just common sense.

[twoworms]

I got a (ideerear) or two that I'm going to try... :) It will work or I"ll have a busted 3X9 Vari X II to return for repair...

Thanks for your help,

Tim

[twoworms]

Back to the testing on that Cold Sat afternoon. Like 44man has said in the past its not right to have to fire 4 to 5 shots to foul the barrel before it starts shooting groups.

With the Felix lubed boolits I fired one shot, then the next one and a bunch there after shoot into a group at 50 yards. It would seem there is something to what 44man had said about the number of shoots before it groups. I'm a thinking this Felix lube is going to work... :)

Tim

P.S. Just need the scope to hang in there for a few shoots.

[44man]

Yes, I love the stuff and Lar's lubes work great too.
On the picture I posted and the one on my avitar, the groups were shot from clean, cold guns. It doesn't seem to effect lead like a clean gun does to jacketed. I learned to not shoot IHMSA with a clean gun and jacketed because I would miss the first chicken then clean the 39 that were left. I never hunt with a clean gun either if I am shooting jacketed bullets.
Once in a while the first cast boolit will be out a little but sometimes it is the third or fourth shot. I think lead is more forgiving to barrel condition, in fact every deer I ever shot with my muzzle loaders were shot with a clean barrel.
But like everything else, it depends a lot on the gun.

[twoworms]

I fired some soft lead boolits the other day at 50yards. I They shot much better than any from the rifle so far. I then started working on my 440gr .501 mold to make it cast fatter boolits. I now cast boolits that are more round and bigger. The size as cast is around .505 to .507 I then size them down to .503. I'm thinking this bigger boolit will help with most of the shooting problems I have been having. I have gone back to WW for lead, but will use soft lead if they don't work out as well.

I'll post as before how the range test works out.

Tim

[leftiye]

In addition to bigger boolits that fit your freebore, you might try softer boolits in an attempt to get a gas seal while the boolits are still in the freebore (I see that you are already). At the lower speeds that you are shooting, and if pressures aren't too high, this might be pretty accurate. Will those new larger boolits go into your freebore unsized? Maybe compression slug or cast your chamber and first inch of barrel to find out the diameter of your freebore.