I think I know what the problem is

[mattbowen]

Howdy All;

I think I know what the problem is but I want to get a second opinion.

I have been trying to load a round that shoot fairly accurately out of both my Black Hawk and my 92 but haven't been successful, and I want to use both to hunt with. I was shooting a 300gr Lee Cast RNFP in the 92 with the boolit seated a little long with good success but the I can't use them in the Black Hawk do to the boolit seating. When I seat the boolit down for the Black Hawk then I loose accuracy in both. I went to a 255gr Lee RNFP and I have good accruacy in the Black Hawk but not in the 92 and if I seat the boolit any longer I can't use it in the Black Hawk.
I was wanting to use the same boolit in both but I have a feeling that I am going to have to settle for two separate loads. What I found with the 92 is that the chamber is a little long and I seat the boolit out to get it closer to the rifling so that the jump isn't that far, unless I get the chambers in the cylinder re-bored in the Black Hawk (and I don't know if I want to go that rout for safety reasons) I will have to use two boolit loads.

What do y'all think.

Matt

[zuke]

Ask around for some sample bullet weight's and size's from different guy's and try them out in both.

[runfiverun]

to simplify a little.
have you tried the same load under both boolits?
say 17 grs 2400 under both.
using the same load and different boolits in the two guns would make things simpler.
are you gonna carry both at the same time?
function takes priority in my eyes especially for hunting.

[MGySgt]

It might help if you told us if this is a 44 mag or 45 Colt.

44Mag - is 1/2 grain heavier than what mostof us found is max for accuracy in a pistol

[Jeff H]

.....I found with the 92 is that the chamber is a little long and I seat the boolit out to get it closer to the rifling so that the jump isn't that far, unless I get the chambers in the cylinder re-bored in the Black Hawk.....Matt

I'm guessing ".45 Colt" by the bullet weights stated.

Either way, I am not following the "rebore" idea.

Are you talking about having the throats reamed in the BH?
The first thing I would look at is the groove size on both guns and the throat size on the BH. You will be hoping for some happy medium at the least. If the rifle grooves are the same or slightly smaller than the revolver's - you have one less thing to worry about. If you can size (or not) the bullet to a proper fit for both, you can focus on seating depth, charge, powder type, etc.

Given the results you had with seating depth, I am a little surprised.
Usually, seating bullets out further into the throats (of proper size) has yielded me either no gain in accuracy or some gain in accuracy, but not a reduction in accuracy. Not that it can't happen, but I wouldn't dwell on that while ruling other things out.

My approach would be to determine how well-suited the same diameter bullet is for both and then start with some low level loads - maybe even a different bullet for now, to try to establish that both will shoot well (you may already know that) individually and start changing variable ONE AT A TIME while working up to a totally different load.

Let's say you find that both shoot a 200 gr LFP at minimum velocity reasonaobly well. Tweak that until they both shoot it VERY well (if that is possible) and then try swapping a different/heavier bullet (with the approriate reduction in charge) and keep working toward your ultimate goal.

It may take a while to get there, but I don't think it's terribly common that both a revolver and a rifle will share the "best" load. It may be a comrpomise in the end but would be fun working it out.

Of course, owners of that new Taurus "revolver/carbine" thing could argue against my last comment.:veryconfu

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I would also ask what acuracy potential are you seeking ? I have yet to need to shoot my 44-40 1892´s at a critter past 35 yards.
I generally hunt river bottoms & woods when up north so if I have a 3" load at 50 yards in both weapons I have few worries of a miss.
Both my 44-40 1892´s are fat throated. If I wanted a revolver load to match I would be prepared to ream my revolver throats.

[Bass Ackward]

If you have two guns, a handgun and a rifle, it is no different than having two rifles. Those guns will be mechanically different as to what they require. I mean you are dealing with bullet jump in one and trying to minimize it in another.

They may do OK with some magic combo if you have the time to find it, but "best accuracy" will be different to each. Even if it is the same bullet design it will be different hardness or lubes or powders, something. That's just how it has been unless you are the lucky type. And the lucky guys are out there. But mostly they are guys that can come to a rationalization of "working" accuracy.

So you probably need to think compromise or develop separately.

[mattbowen]

Thanks for all the replies;
Runfiverun, I have tried tried both loads under both boolits and in both weapons with no luck.

MGySgt, Sorry I am shooting 45lc..

Jeff, that is what I was talking about "having the throats reamed. I have found that if I don't seat the boolit all the way down they will get stuck in the cylinder and must be forced out if you want to unload, once you seat the boolit all the way they slide in and out freely. If I seat the boolit out in the 92 my accuracy increases by about an 3" to an 4" at 60 yds the boolits that are seated all the way the groups are at about 5.5" to 6" but when seated out the groups average about 2", in the 92 I have to seat the boolit almost to the length of the 454 as a matter fact I have fired a deep seated 454 case with very good accuracy.

5155: The ranges that i hunt are at about 100yds.

If I could get both to shoot about 2" to 2.5 at 50yds I would be happy

Thanks again for the replies

Matt

[tacklebury]

I shoot a ruger blackhawk and a carbine caliber'd alike in .45 colt also. I would think trying a LFN bullet instead of a Round nose would help you. Also, possibly a SWC. LFN especially would let you creep the length out slightly without binding in the black hawk. Something along the lines of:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/details.php?id=62

[Jeff H]

.....I have found that if I don't seat the boolit all the way down they will get stuck in the cylinder and must be forced out if you want to unload, once you seat the boolit all the way they slide in and out freely......Matt

Sounds like they may be tight. I have always had a leading mess with that situation, but if you don't - maybe your groove diameter is comaptible with the throats. That could mean you end up with two different diameter bullets for the two guns. Looks like a good time to do some measuring.

The compromise mentioned above is solid thinking too. Just getting two to shoot one load "reasonably" well is an accomplishment in itself.

[mattbowen]

Tacklebury;

Thanks I will have to get another mold (good excuse).

Jeff;

I do get more leading in the Black Hawk then I do the 92, I will have to pull out the calipers. When I am measuring the cylinder do I need to measure the forcing cone also?

Thanks again

Matt

[runfiverun]

i'd measure at least under the frame where the bbl screws in.
but i will bet you are gonna find tight cylinder throats.
i have two blackhawk 44 specials one blued and one stainless the blued is quite a bit more accurate than the stainless.
out of curiousity i swapped cylinders, just to see, at the range. now the stainless is a LOT more accurate.
i need to measure the cylinder throats in the stainless cylinder as the blued model lost it's accuracy.
it sounds like you have two very dissimilar guns here, one on the tight side and one on the large side.
you may be able to make the revolver better, but the levergun is still gonna be big.

[Jeff H]

Something to think about:
http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

I will likely be doing this to my Rossi, as it has a .355" groove diameter and I have room to play, plus it has a weird spot in the bore that makes LEE 158 TLs lead badly, while nothing else does. It's a bullet I would EXPECT to be able to use in the .357, regardless of which one. I don't have to match loads with anything because my SP101 has its own specific loads for other reasons.

It may end up being a lot of work, but just like the elusive "perfect gun" or "perfect knife," I don't think one should get too hung up on the fact that it may well be a fantasy because it does get people talking about why they prefer this or that and a lot of otherwise useful information is shared. So what if it is impossible? Try it anyway and the least you will lose is some time, which you might well have spent doing something much less enjoyable or productive.

I actually like "what if you could only have one gun" threads myself. I know there is not one out there but it sure gets people thinking. I think the quest for a combo that can use the same ammo effectively is as worthy a stimulator of ideas and generator of knowledge, so stay at it as long as it interests you.

EDIT:
OH! By the way - Not all of us can afford or have access to pin gauges. That's just a fact of life for me and I have to slug my barrels and throats to get my measurements. Is that less effective than pin gauges? Maybe - I don't know myself. I know I have to slug and measure multiple times and, yes, there are factors that make it a little iffy sometimes, but if it's what you have, then that's what you have to use. I wouldn't feel like it was a lost cause or not worth doing if you have to use a slug to measure. It may not be as good at detecting restrictions as a set of pin gauges and I don't begrudge anyone who HAS the gauges, but I don't. I have yet to personally do my first firelapping job, so follow the link at your own risk. I do believe that a few of my own firearms could benefit from it and if I do it, I will do the Rossi first.

[LVRFAN]

Matt, my dad and I shoot several 45 Colt rifles and pistols and have had the same problem you have encountered. Rugers, Colts, Winchester 92's, and '73 clones so we wanted something safe for the weakest link. The absolute best all-around load we have found so far is the SAECO 955 RNFP sized to 0.453 in Lyman #2 with 8.0 grs. of UNIQUE. The bullet weighs about 255 grs. and is short enough to work well in the rifles. This load seems to shoot fast for only 8.0 grs.- we get 1000 fps out of my 7.5" Blackhawk and 950 out of a 7.5" Colt. It shoots pretty well in everything we have. The SAECO bullet is great- the only other bullet we use is the excellent LYMAN 452424 and that one will work in a rifle if you factory crimp it in the middle of the top drive band.

[Jeff H]

...... The absolute best all-around load we have found so far is..........

Not ballistics that I would turn my nose up at. Not much of a compromise either, but it makes me think....... what if yoiu found ONE load (even almost as good as this one) that works for all, keep a goodly stock of that and have a pet load or two for each. Either keep the pet loads in smaller quantities and separate (marked) or just load someo of those up when ou want something that shoots really, really well in one or the other.

[mattbowen]

Thanks again for the replies fellows,
Runfiverun; I will measure the cylinders and the forcing cone and see what I get.

Jeff; Thanks for the link I may try that.

LVRFAN; Very interesting I will have to look into that mold.

Thanks again

Matt

[mroliver77]

Matt,
Do yourself a favor and slug your guns, both of them and record the measurements. You do not need anything but soft lead and a couple steel rods close to bore size for the rifle and a and throat size for the revolver. They are a couple bucks at most any hardware store.

You should know the rule of the cylinder mouths(throat) being a thou bigger than the bore. Check the bore for tight spots. This is posted many times here at CB forum.

There seems to be a difference of opinion on fitting boolits to a cyl. I am of the school that says boolit should be just a bit (.0005) smaller than the throat. The boolit should not fall through the cylinder but take a slight push to get it through. I get no leading in guns set up this way as long as everything else is kosher. I can load cartridges that are cyl length with the boolit nose just a couple thou short of the cyl face this way.

If there is a gross difference between the sizes of your rifle and handgun a hollow base boolit will usually seal up and shoot ok in about anything. Sometimes a softer alloy will allow boolit to bump up and seal the larger of the two. I bet you can find a load both like without too much fuss.
Jay

[mattbowen]

mroliveer77;

Thanks for the reply, I tried to drop a boolit through the cylinder and I couldn't even push it through. The cylinder measures .4505, the forcing cone seems to be about .4555, and the bollit is casting at .4520. With those measurements and what y'all are saying it seems that I am going to have to have the cylinder honed .

Thanks again

Matt

[Jeff H]

mroliveer77;

Thanks for the reply, I tried to drop a boolit through the cylinder and I couldn't even push it through. The cylinder measures .4505, the forcing cone seems to be about .4555, and the bollit is casting at .4520. With those measurements and what y'all are saying it seems that I am going to have to have the cylinder honed .

Thanks again

Matt

Hey, Matt,
Now you're getting somewhere.
Sounds like the throats are definitely small. Have you bushed a soft lead bullet all the way throiugh the barrel to see what the actual groove diamter is? Remember - the bullet you push through the barrel will be a mirror image of the features inside - so you want to measure the high spots on the bullet to know the low spots (grrove) in the barrel.

[mattbowen]

Jeff; Thanks for responding, I haven't done that as yet I need to get some pure lead so it will be soft enough to go through the barrel, all I have are WW. I mike the cylinder and forcing cone to get my measurements. I also want to swedge the 92s barrel also.

Thanks again

Matt

[Snyd]

My Puma 92 454 shoots everything from 255gr Lee rnfp (.452) in 45 Colt brass with 8.5 gr Unique up to 435gr 45-70 boolit sized down to .454 with excellent accuracy. My SBH 45 Colt adn RH had small throats, after reaming them to .4525 it tightened up the groups. I can shoot the same 45 Colt loads in my SBH, RH and Puma, all with excellent accuracy. Fix the throats in your Blackhawk first off.

I have slugged the barrels and the SBH and RH are .451, the Puma is .452. It shoots .452 and .454 boolits with equal accuracy. You can use these to slug the barrels.

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/boreSlug_01.jpg

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/boreSlug_02.jpg

[mattbowen]

Snyd;

Thanks, I didn't even think of using lead sinkers, I will have to get some. I think I am having the same problems.

Thanks again

Matt

[mattbowen]

snyd;

What size weights did you use?

[Snyd]

Water Gremlin brand. Package says "PEG 8" "1/2 Size"

[Clinebo]

Matt> Go to that Beartooth Bullets site and order his book. I did and it was a great read. I'm doing the same thing as you. Rossi '92 and Ruger Vaquero both in .45 Colt. I have some 255 RNFP loaded up but haven't had a chance to range test them yet. First load is using Unique and the other 2400. Both guns shoot factory Remington 225 grainers pretty darn good. But I bought them on sale to get some brass. Finally got some Starline brass in at Midway and thats what I used for the handloads. Also bought a Lee mold for 255 RNFP,so I can start casting my own.

[1bluehorse]

Everyone has given you the right info. Ream the cylinder mouths to .4525 and then firelapp both guns. It's not that hard and can be done in a couple hours time. If both guns are blued it will probably only take 35,40 rounds each to accomplish this. Ruger stainless is a bit of a different story. That stuff is tuff!!!There are kits on the market for firelapping but the only one I've used is Beartooth Bullets kit. Has everthing you need including instructions.

[mattbowen]

Thanks to all of you for the information, I took a wooden dow and attached some 300 grit sand paper and went down to 600 grit and honed the cylinder and I got a sizer die for both the 45/70 and 45LC and have sized the rounds that I have on hand, I even sized seven 340gr RNFP 458's down to 452. I loaded those seven up with 14gr of 2400 and tested both pistol and rifle. The rounds went into the cylinder with no problem and chambered into the 92 just fine. The groups in the 92 were outstanding but the groups with the pistol were the same as before, those 340 grainers sure do have a heck of a recoil in the Black Hawk. I will have to look into fire lapping both the 92 and the BH.

Thanks again

Matt

[PacMan]

If you have any stickon wws they wil work for sluging.

Does sound like opening up your cylinder throats will help for sure.
I had the same delima working up loads for my .357 Marlin and RHB. The .359 bullet that shot so well in my Marlin would not chamber in my BH. I open the throats up to chamber the .359 LBT FN 180gr and after lots of Lil Gun and lead found a load that both would shoot well. The marlin out to 100+yars and the BH out to 50.
Dwight