SMLE or No 4 in matches?

[dualsport]

I've been daydeaming again. I'm thinking of trying these, either a SMLE No1 or Savage No 4, in High Power Service Rifle and/or CMP matches using cbs. Anyone with experience with this? Or a source of info on somebody doing it? I know I can't be the first but have not found much written about it.

[higgins]

I've never fired either one under match conditions of timed fire or position shooting, but I'd prefer the aperture sight of the No.4, both for sight picture and ease of elevation adjustment. The No.4 also has a heavier barrel that might handle the heat better, although you'll hear opinions both way on that count. I'm one of the unfortunate souls who likes the old military bolt guns but shoots left handed. I came close to shooting a No.4 in a military bolt gun match once because bolt manipulation was a bit easier since the handle was further to the rear. I ended up shooting the Garand match instead.

[Larry Gibson]

The SMLE does not meet the criteria for "service rifle" in High Power NMC matches, neither does the M1903 and hasn't for years. You can certainly use the SMLE in the matches but will be put in the "Match Rifle" category unless the match has enough competetors shooting such rifles for the sperate catagory for military rifles. Most NMC matches do not. In Match Rifle category you will be shooting against the space guns and most serious matches are won by X count. However, I still often enter shooting my M1903 National Match Type II just for fun. However, I have no expectaions of winning but I usually have the front runners looking back over their shoulders at me:)

Larry Gibson

[truckjohn]

Yeah... I bet they are - especially when you start lighting off 30-06 on the line!

Thanks

[madsenshooter]

I use my Krags pretty regularly, with few complaints from the mouse gun crowd. I did have one complaint, based on the new NRA rules that allow you to stay in place for sitting and prone. I only had one charger for my Krag, so they allowed me to load my magazine, door open, bolt back. I was getting the first shot every time, so someone thought I had an unfair advantage. A 115 year old manually operated rifle against smaller caliber semi-autos and I had an unfair advantage! I'm considering using cast at Camp Perry this year, probably something in the neighborhood of 2000fps that groups well.

[skeet1]

madsenshooter,
Someone will probably say you have an unfair advantage using cast too.

Ken

[Multigunner]

There are special WW1 era service rifle matches.
I read up on these several years ago, but don't have the links any more.

From what I could find the rules are pretty strict. Rifles must be in as issued condition. No glass bedding or any bedding methods used other than those in use by armorers of the period. No match grade ammo or match style apeture sights, only the original equipment all the way.

The ammunition I'm not so sure about, since actual WW1 era ammo would be far too degraded and the U S .30-06 and German 7.92 service ammo changed greatly after WW1.
They probably allow whatever loads available that duplicate WW1 loadings.

The SMLE is said to walk away with first place for several reasons. Fresh milspec MkVII ammunition is available from Kynamco, so its likely this would be allowable.
Some such matches have forbidden use of low number Springfields due to safety concerns, which pretty much puts the Springfield out of the running since these were the only type issued during the great war.
The U S would then have to be represented by the M1917 rifle.

[madsenshooter]

It was a 1917 won the Vintage Rifle match at Camp Perry last year. The Springfields have their own class but is shot at the same time, everything else is in the Vintage match. I even saw a fellow shooting a Madsen like mine last year. Lots of K31s, SMLEs, Mosins, and Arisakas.

[bruce drake]

madsenshooter,
Someone will probably say you have an unfair advantage using cast too.

Ken

Waaa! He's using custom bullets!!! Waaa!

I say GO FOR IT!:cbpour:

Bruce

[Jack Stanley]

If ya just want to shoot and be in the competitive atmosphere , I'm with Larry . Let them put you in a match rifle class and go ahead and compete against your own best shooting . After a while they will be looking over their shoulders at you .

What to use ?? as a lefty myself I guess Id use the number four mark two I already have or maybe look at a K31 . I remember shooting in an "F" class match and I wasn't conforming with the rules but the range officer knew before the first shot I was just there to shoot not compete . So the guys that were complaining about me had nothing to stand on .

Pick a rifle and have fun .:D

Jack

[303Guy]

Choosing between a SMLE and a No.4 would be easy for me. I'd choose the No.4 (assuming it had the adjustable type sights).

[bruce drake]

I'm not sure, if I had a SMLE with one of those windage adjustable rear sights I'd use that (with a new barrel installed) over a No4 with just an elevation adjustable sight.

But between a typical SMLE and a No 4, I agree, a No 4 with a micrometer rear sight hands down.

Bruce

[Gtek]

Four groove early No. 4 with good bore, 314299 and away you go. No.4 seems a little easier to wrangle barrel /stock issues up front chasing fine tune with warming barrel. Is it not amazing how there is always that one guy at the match shooting for his rent money or something. Pick what you want, have fun and tell the PIA's to kiss your SMLE or eat No.4 (twice No.2). Gtek

[RU shooter]

Waaa! He's using custom bullets!!! Waaa!

I say GO FOR IT!:cbpour:

Bruce
Had that happen already! The match director used to shoot cast too way back when and just told the guy to shut up and shoot and deal with it.....

[NuJudge]

I've shot a No. 4 Mk I with Lead bullets on 200 yard National Match course matches, and did decently. I just shot, IIRC, 18gr of old 2400 under the Lee 180gr bullet. It held about the 9 ring on the 200 yard Offhand and Sitting Rapid targets. Things got substantially worse with the reduced size bullseyes for the simulated 300 yard Prone Rapid and simulated 600 yard Prone Slow.

I just got a No. 1 Mk III, and I have yet to shoot anything through it.

I typically like shooting an aperture rear more than I like shooting a notch rear sight, but my experiences with the Swiss K31 say I can shoot either about as well, but Optometric intervention is critical.

[dualsport]

I have two Savage No. 4s, one slightly bubba'd with some wood missing, but original metal and the 'L' flip sight. The other is still issue with the nice ladder sight. Both are two groove, good bores, but Big. .318" grooves and huge chambers. I guess that's all good when you're fighting in the mud and sand. .311 174 SMKs shoot decent, but not great. Still working on a cb load. Tried the Ranch Dog .32 Special boolit sized down, no cigar. Tried the NOE 316299 and got keyholing, might need more speed there. Next up is the 'Fattest .30' from an old GB here, it's .318 in the back, but is only about 180 gr. I may have to learn how to paper patch yet.

[Jack Stanley]

Dualsport , I have an old Australian number one with a big bore like that . The fix for that rifle was to send a lead throat impression to Veral Smith and got a mold for it there . Mine is a two hundred fifteen grain bullet and works real well , I'm sure he will make whatever weight you want .

This same rifle would keyhole ball ammo at fifty yards and there was no factory ammo that would group at all . Cast bullets sized at .318" do as well as my eyes will let them .

Jack

[303Guy]

My rust textured two-groove No.4 gives the impression of being very acurate.I will need to fire a bench group with it. I have a five-groove No. 4 that I'm thinking of using with cast in this kind of shooting but my plans are to use slower powders and higher velocity. That bore is also a little rust textured but nothing like the two-groove. One day I'll get a round to-wit.[smilie=1: