World record bolt action aimed fire ????

[Depreacher]

Got this from a survivalist website (I think) a few days ago. Maybe it's true, I hope. Let me know if it's fake please.
In 1914 Sergeant Snoxall of the British army, a musketry instructor, set a still standing world record. 38 rounds from a SMLE into a 12" square ar 300 yds. in ONE MINUTE !!!!!!! Surely, he started off with a full magazine, but had to switch magazines 3 times (not easy in a Smelly), or load with stripper clips 3 times if they were 10 shot stripper clips (which I've never seen). If they were standard 5 shot strippers, which I do have, he would have used 6 of them . Not bad for an "ol Smelly and ball ammo. Assuming, open sights too. If true, would'nt you like to see a video of that 60 seconds???? Depreacher ps. Now don't any of you guys go out and take that mans record away from him. If you do though, be sure and use cast Boolits. :) IT'S TRUE. I just googled it and lots of sites came up. Used 5 rd. chargers too. Go Look.

[nicholst55]

There is video somewhere on the web of a similar feat, with a SMLE. The UK didn't issue spare mags for the SMLE or any Lee Enfield - just ammo on strippers. Mags for those rifle were one-per, and had to be fitted by an armorer.

[Multigunner]

P N Walbridge wrote on the best methods for handling the SMLE, an article titled "The Rifle in Close Combat is reproduced in Fairbanes "All in Fighting".

Heres an excerpt.


THE RIFLE IN CLOSE COMBAT Quick Handling
Let me stress at once that, in rapid firing, each shot is fired in exactly the same manner as a slow shot. The number of rounds you are able to fire in one minute will depend on the length of time it takes you to open and close the breech. When re-loading, only the slightest movement of the right hand and wrist is necessary. Hold the knob of the bolt firmly between the thumb and forefinger; raise it, at the same time tilting the rifle slightly to the right; draw the bolt fully to the rear, and at once close the breech with a sharp forward and downward movement. All these actions should be continuous, and carried out as quickly as possible after the shot has been fired. The action of tilting the rifle will assist the opening of the breech and the ejection of the empty case. The head must be kept still throughout. To enable you to get correct bolt manipulation, practise in the following way. Tie the trigger to the rear (Fig. 154). Then, in the lying position, practise the correct movement of the right hand and wrist in opening and closing the breech. Place the right hand in its correct position and the finger on the trigger each time. Note.-Tying back the trigger will make practice in manipulation easier, and will prevent unnecessary wear to the face of the cocking piece, and avoid weakening the bolt main spring. On the P.14 and .300 American rifle, it will also be necessary to remove the magazine platform and spring. When you have mastered the wrist and hand movement so essential to good manipulation, remove the string and practise firing. Each day will see a great change in your ability to fire a large number of accurately aimed shots. Quick inaccurate shooting is of no use. Each shot must be fired by taking the first and second pressures correctly. Only in this way can you hope to become an expert in rapid firing. Try and keep to the suggested programme. 1st day-l hour: manipulation, with trigger tied. 2nd day-l hour: manipulation and slow shooting. 3rd day-l hour: practise firing 15 accurate shots in one minute. 4th day-l hour: increase to 20 rounds in one minute. 5th day-l hour: increase to 25 rounds in one minute. 6th day-l hour: increase to 30 rounds in one minute. 122

THE RIFLE IN CLOSE COMBAT

Quick Handling (contd.)
The above standards are set assuming you will not be able to obtain dummy cartridges. If you train to fire thirty aimed shots in one minute in this manner, you should be capable of firing twenty to twenty-five rounds of ball ammunition in one minute and maintain reasonable accuracy. Get a friend to assist you. He can correct your aims either by (1) glancing through the small hole of a prepared target as described in 'Aiming', or (2) by letting you aim at his eye, previously making sure that the rifle is unloaded. It will be observed that the above programme allows you only six hours to become an expert in rapid fire. This is not impossible. Provided reasonable efficiency bas been attained in slow firing, you should now be ready to quicken up.

Fig. 1;,4

123

THE RIFLEIN CLOSECOMBAT
Close-Quarter Fighting

In close fighting, such as ,in streets, clearing woods, etc" speed is essential. You will seldom be given the opportunity to adopt a comfortable firing position, but will have to fire either from the hip (Fig. 155) or from the shoulder whilst in the standing position. In firing from the hip, you must be very close to your target if you are to obtain a hit, whereas from the shoulder, firing is much quicker and accuracy is not so much sacrificed. When approaching an area where your target is likely to appear suddenly, e.g. stalking a mortar post or machine-gun nest, etc., carry the rifle as shown in Fig. 156. This will enable you instantly to bring the rifle to the shoulder and open fire. To increase your speed of firing to a rate previously imagined unattainable, you will have to press the trigger with the first or second finger while retaining your hold on the bolt (Fig. 157) and ignore the fact that the trigger has two pressures. In this way, you should, after a few hours' practice, be able to fire five shots in four seconds. For close work or crossing a gap, you will find it invaluable to be able to fire at this speed with reasonable accuracy. I have frequently fired at a much faster rate when demonstrating this method. Fifteen minutes' manipulation and firing daily will increase your handling ability and speed by 100 per cent.


I've run across several versions of Snoxhall's feat. He most likely fired from a standing position with the rifle sandbagged.

20-25 aimed shots per minute is pretty good shooting. The Garand could be fired at a rate of 60-90 rounds per minute but the manuals discourage firing faster than 25 shots per minute to avoid excessive erosion from overheating of the bore.

The Springfield 1903 was once torture tested by placing the rifle in a stand then manipulating the bolt and firing as fast as possible. They acheived some gosh awful high number of rounds per minute this way, but of course this was not intended as a test of how fast the rifle could be fired under combat conditions. It was to see how well the action stood up to extreme stress.

[Chicken Thief]

Search Youtube for:"Mad Minute"

[WILCO]

Search Youtube for:"Mad Minute"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m1yN-3n0FU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh-pgRhi_Lo&NR=1

[btroj]

There is an old joke amongst some older NRA high owed shooters. These guys like the bolt guns even in a gas gun age. They like to say they don't like gas guns because they get tired of waiting for the action to cycle.
Get someone who knows how to shoot fast with a slick bolt action and they can be as fast as a gas gun.
This feat seems very doable for a guy who knew his weapon.

Brad

[1Shirt]

No question that the old Smelly is a capable battle rifle! No question that it can be fired rapidly, and that quick handling in combat with that rifle produced some excellent results. Look at the number of wars that the Brits fought with it. Makes for interesting reading, and some interesting viewing on U-Tube. The rifle works even if it is butt ugly! I enjoy shooting mine!:coffeecom
1Shirt!

[Bullshop]

In my view the cock on closing feature of an SMLE is an aid to fast bolt manipulation.

[Three44s]

Well, I know I am not messing with the "cock on close" of my M1917!!


Three 44s

[doubs43]

In 1914 Sergeant Snoxall of the British army, a musketry instructor, set a still standing world record. 38 rounds from a SMLE into a 12" square ar 300 yds. in ONE MINUTE !!!!!!!

Too bad the Kaiser wasn't paying attention. Coulda saved a lot of lives! :)

[bruce drake]

I shoot Mauser bolt action rifles in NRA high-power matches all the time. I shoot left handed so I have to reach over to work the bolt (I prefer straight handle bolts but I can work a bent bolt too) and I can shoot my 10 shots to include a stripper clip feed easily within the alloted 60 (200 yard sitting) or 70 seconds (300 yard prone).

The key to all this - Practice. You get good with the rifle you have a healthy respect for. That SGT if he survived the killing fields of WWI would have been a professional soldier from an earlier time and probably left the Army after the carnage of Europe in 1914-18.

[Depreacher]

I'm a lefty too. On page 12 and 13 of the Dec. 1940 American Rifleman there is an article by Jim Crossman "South-paw Rapid Fire". Lots of pictures on two left handed men and there fast firing ability with the '03 Springfield. Lists all the matches they had won. My 03A3 with it's original sight makes me very careful when shooting rapid fire. That sight can sure cut up my aging paper thin skin. I may try a thin glove with the trigger finger removed. If I had enough computer and copier sense, I'd copy that AR article and post it. Sorry!!! Anyone with the rifleman CD could.

[ebner glocken]

A leftie myself I never tried using my left hand to cycle a bolt. Just used my right hand w/o taking my left off the grip. Then again rapid fire was never a thought in a bolt gun for me. Now I'm wondering if this would be fun? Something else to try at the range next time.

Ebner

[bruce drake]

I've learned to roll my right wrist downwards in the sling a little bit which lets me reach a bent bolt with my left. With a straight bolt I can reach over and cycle the rifle without taking the rifle out of my shoulder.

Bruce

[GabbyM]

I can totally believe 38 aimed shots in one minute from an Enfield. British infantry were trained to fire from between 20-30 aimed rounds per minute.

Way I was taught to run a bolt gun was with an open palm slap. Not three finger grip on the bolt knob like most do. Slap it up and back in one motion starting with palm up. Then roll over our palm and slap it forwards and down with one motion. When I do it the closing is mostly with my thumbs metacarpal. I reestablish a hand grip and fire with my trigger finger but the Brits taught there infantry to rapid fire using the middle or ring finger to slap the trigger at short range. Like after topping a trench. I’ve read articles detailing this technique but would not know where to find them. Sergeant who set this 38 shot record would have had lots of practise as a musketry instructor.

[45nut]

My favorite battle rifles.

[leadman]

Last year I shot in a military rifle match with my 1903a3, cast boolits. I'm a lefty also, ten rounds with a reload in 50 seconds. I use my right hand to cycle the bolt.

[KCSO]

If you learn the bolt flick it's not to hard to shoot a bolt pretty fast. A round a second isn't hard to do at all. reloading the SMLE with strippers is quick work about the only gun I think I might be able to load and fire faster would be a K31 swiss as the straight pull is very fast with practice. For the first 5 shots there is nothing faster than a Krag and i have on occassion shot 5 shots in 5 seconds into a 2 1/2" group.

[waksupi]

I do believe you need to pay attention more to the last part of the military description on how a bolt action should be operated, in dangerous conditions. He touches on the fact that you should use your first or second finger for the trigger. Further development of the use of the rifle were left out, though.
The proper method for dangerous game (man included), is to pivot the bolt in the socket of you hand as rapidly as possible. Not between thumb and forefinger, but in the pit of your palm. Do not attempt to grasp it with individual fingers and thumbs. That takes away precious milliseconds.
On a well designed combat or dangerous game rifle, this will generally bring your middle finger back in to contact with the trigger, which should be used to execute the stroke of firing, and immediately follow with bolt manipulation again. Using this method is much quicker than the military version, and was developed by dangerous game hunters in Africa and the sub continent. I have shot many African class cartridges in this manner, and more aimed shots can be delivered in the shortest period of time with this method, than any other.
Do a bit of practice like this, and report back.

[PAT303]

I've easily achieved 25 aimed shots in a minute with mine.It's hell on the throat though. Pat

[P.K.]

No question that the old Smelly is a capable battle rifle! No question that it can be fired rapidly, and that quick handling in combat with that rifle produced some excellent results. Look at the number of wars that the Brits fought with it. Makes for interesting reading, and some interesting viewing on U-Tube. The rifle works even if it is butt ugly! I enjoy shooting mine!:coffeecom
1Shirt!

Agreed, considering just how far reaching GB was at the time it is probably the most distributed rifle of all time. Just a quick note, talked with my brother in-law the other day. LMAO when he asked about this weird bolt action rifle that his platoon confiscated off a couple of ferals in a southern province. Gave him a little history class and how these "historic" arms are becoming popular again due to their reach.

[johnly]

I pulled a 300 yd RF target for Nelson Shue that scored a 200-14x. That would be 20 shots in 2 minutes with 14 of the 20 shots in a 3" circle and the other 6 in a 6" circle. Watching the bullet punch holes in the target from the pits was amazing.

John

[Multigunner]

The proper method for dangerous game (man included), is to pivot the bolt in the socket of you hand as rapidly as possible. Not between thumb and forefinger, but in the pit of your palm. Do not attempt to grasp it with individual fingers and thumbs. That takes away precious milliseconds.
On a well designed combat or dangerous game rifle, this will generally bring your middle finger back in to contact with the trigger, which should be used to execute the stroke of firing, and immediately follow with bolt manipulation again. Using this method is much quicker than the military version, and was developed by dangerous game hunters in Africa and the sub continent. I have shot many African class cartridges in this manner, and more aimed shots can be delivered in the shortest period of time with this method, than any other.
Do a bit of practice like this, and report back.

Thats the method Sgt. York is said to have used, regardless of whether he used a M1917 or a Springfield 1903. I believe he still used the index finger as the trigger finger though.
I practiced this method with my Persian Mauser carbine many years ago.
Due to a hand injury I couldn'y use the palm to lift the bolt knob for many years, thats the major reason I got interested in the Lee Enfield rifles. A young friend who knew about my hand injury asked me to go shooting and try out his No.5 Carbine. The Lee Enfield action cycles so easily I immediately regained my interest in shooting bolt action rifles.
If my hand is acting up (still have some problems with it) I usually catch the bolt knob in the V of thumb and fore finger on the up and back stroke, then push forwards using the heel of the thumb in a smooth semi circle stroke, then bring the hand back for a normal grip and use the index finger on the trigger.



PAT303 I've easily achieved 25 aimed shots in a minute with mine.It's hell on the throat though. Pat
That reminds me of something I read about the modern magnum long range sniper rifles. A sniper wrote that when they first got the rifles ( I forget which chambering it was ) the instructions said it would take 60 rounds or so to break in the barrel for maximum accuracy. One of the armorers figured he would speed up the break in period and proceded to fire 60 rounds through each of these new rifles as fast as he could work the bolt and reload. The result was that the throats of all the rifles were burnt out before the snipers got a chance to try them out. All the rifles had to be sent back and rebarreled.

[Von Gruff]

That reminds me of something I read about the modern magnum long range sniper rifles. A sniper wrote that when they first got the rifles ( I forget which chambering it was ) the instructions said it would take 60 rounds or so to break in the barrel for maximum accuracy. One of the armorers figured he would speed up the break in period and proceded to fire 60 rounds through each of these new rifles as fast as he could work the bolt and reload. The result was that the throats of all the rifles were burnt out before the snipers got a chance to try them out. All the rifles had to be sent back and rebarreled.

Ouch, glad it wasn't my wallet. Makes you wonder how some armorours get to be armorours. Read gunsmiths, mechanics, etc, and anyone who shouldn't be let loose in thier chosen fields.

Von Gruff.

[sojerguy]

Apparently, one of the 'tricks' to rapid shooting of the Enfield is the 'shoot 6, reload 5' method. It does involve some practice and pre-selection of your stripper clips. Even some polishing with emery cloth for any that 'stick' a bit.

Basically start, with 10 rounds, shoot 6, quick load 5, push bolt forward which knocks stripper out of the way, (now 9 rounds in mag).
Shoot 6 rounds, load 5 (now 8 in mag).
Shoot 6, load 5 (now 7...).
Shoot 6, load 5 (now 6 ...).
Shoot 6, load 5 (now 5 ...).
Shoot 5.

Total 35 rounds fired, using 5 'quick strip' reloads.

As stated above, it takes some practice, pre-selelction and preparation of your stripper clips and placing the strippers 'to hand' on the firing line.

All the above comes from an uncle of mine that was a Royal Marine in the late 40s and early 50s.

This was shared over a few pints about 3 years ago, when discussing where I'm at now. He also had some 'choice comments' for his training sergeants and their apparent ancestry.

This is actually something I'll attempt (with dummy rounds the first few dozen times) when I get back to the US.

If anyone HAS tried it, let us know how it worked out.