questions on a 7mm Mauser carbine.

[Bullshop]

Today I picked up from a local a very short Mauser carbine in 7x57 Mauser. This thing is so cute! It seems all milsurp but only has an 18" barrel. It is not cut down because all the bayonet hardware is in place. That and the fact that the rear sight also seems to be scaled down to the short barrel. It is stamped on the receiver,
FAB.NAT.D'ARMES DE GUERRE
HERSTAL-BELGIQUE
I am assuming these carbines are not all that common as this is the only one I have seen.
I would appreciate any information anyone can provide on these including approximate value.
If its just another Mauser its a very handy carbine for the younger BS flock.
Please excuse me now as I simply must go try some boolits in it.

[gerrycan]

Sounds like a cavaly carbine made in Belgium for a S. American country e.g. Columbia. I like them but ask on the Milsurp site. Gerry.

[doubs43]

Does it look like the 4th rifle down here: http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20bresil/militaires/a%20mauser%20gb.htm

If so, it's a 1922 short rifle or carbine. I have one that has an original Mauser replacement barrel made specifically for it. I bought the barrel years ago from a company in Geniseo, IL for about $25. They had them in their original shipping containers still sealed from the factory. Each container had many barrels that they sold individually. Note that the actions are large ring and they have the earlier 1902 nose caps. Mine wasn't in the best condition when received so I had it parkerized. It's a nice shooting little rifle.

[Bullshop]

No Sir that is not the one. The crest on this is different and it has a horse in it.
It has three lines of very fine writing on it and I can see for sure the last word is Venezuela.
I will get a better glass and try to make out the rest. It is clear but very very small.
Oh and there is also a date that looks like 1902.

[Brasso]

Bullshop,
According to my book "Mauser Military Rifles of the World", it is listed as FN Model 24/30 Carbine used by Venezuelan rural police departments. AOL is 37.5" with a 17.63" barrel. There is a horse in the lower portion of the Ven. crest.

Sam

[Bullshop]

Thanks Brasso that be the one. Looks like I got me a poh-lice gun . Does that book mention production numbers?
This cute little bugger is in very good to excellent condition. I gave $175.00 for it with sling, one box factory ammo and 4 boxes once fired brass. From what I have been seeing its getting hard to find a Turk or Yugo for that much.

[skeet1]

Bullshop,
It sounds like you did good. Let us know how it shoots.

Ken

[Dutchman]

Matching number bolt would be a major plus.

Don't you own a digital camera? I don't wanna read about it. I wanna SEE it!!

Depending on configuration and modification (Bubba) it's probably worth 3x what you paid.

Dutch

[Multigunner]

I've seen a few of these FN Police Carbines, and everyone I've seen showed top notch workmanship.
The FN military/police Carbines were made in a number of chamberings. I was told that when the .30-06 chambered carbines were used they developed a reduced recoil load for those, about the same power level as the .30-30 Winchester. This cut down on both muzzle blast and recoil.
These reduced power .30-06 cartridges were also used by cadets for target shooting with the military issue rifles on the 200 yard ranges.
I once owned a Persian Mauser carbine in 8mm, and immediately learned the value of reduced power handloads.
4198 gave me the best results with reduced velocity loads in the short barrel.

[Bullshop]

This gun is absolutely un-bubba'ed and and looks to be in very good original condition including the bore.
Unfortunately the numbers on the bolt do not match the receiver.
Even so I got a nice rifle for a good price.
BTW anyone know what rate of twist these have.
We only have a dial up connection so pictures take forever to do and is why we dont often do them.

[Brasso]

Bullshop,
No mention of production numbers or twist rate. Also, you might want to check headspace where the bolt doesn't match. You sure got a sweet deal on that one!!

Sam

[MtGun44]

Military Mausers in 7x57 in the early days had 1 turn in 8.66 inches, very fast to stabilize the
long 175 Rn FMJ which was the original military issue. Eventually, they switched to a 139 gr
spitzer bullet, but AFAIK they stuck with the same twist.

Try a load of 4895 or 4064 under a 175 Hornady RN SP and you will likely find that this little
carbine will shoot THROUGH anything you try it on, and will be a mild recoiling gun. Try
for about 2300 fps. I don't think it would be my first choice for grizz, but everything else
up there will find it has met it's match with the 175 RN Hornady. For my longer barreled
rifles, a near max load of IMR4831 gives me 2400 fps and under 2" with my milsurps at 100
and better in my R77. A friend used that load on about 9 different kinds of African plains game
with a single shot bang-flop on all of them. Only recovered 2 bullets, perfectly mushroomed.
Note that book maximum loads for 7x57 are still moderate loads - 45,000 psi max.

If you want to make a profit on that little rifle, I am a nut for nice 7x57s.

Bill

[Bullshop]

I think I want to play with it for awhile. It has the handy size of a lever gun carbine but in a turn bolt. I have a little 200 cc Yamaha enduro bike I use to cruze the old roads and trails left by the Army when they used the area near where I live for a test site in the 50s. Its a good way to locate game and I am mostly looking for black bear. This little carbine may be very handy for that.

[Combat Diver]

Good score, diffenitely would love to see pictures if possible.

CD

[MtGun44]

She took a nice brown phase black bear up in Michigan a couple years ago. Same
thing - bang-flop. The lady is a dead shot and she really likes my load, which is just
my reincarnation of the grand old high sectional density 175 RN at 2300-2400 fps.
Been dropping everything it hit for over a century, no reason for it to stop working
now.

If you want to buy expensive bullets, the Barnes TSX 140 is awesome on really
big stuff - elk or moose. I also have had excellent results with the Nosler 160,
took some big stuff with it with one shot each but really the old Hornady 175 RN
is low bucks and does extremely well inside 150 yds.

Pix would be nice - you got a good gun there, unless somehow it won't shoot straight.

Bill

[Brasso]

Bullshop,
Are you around Delta Junction? I was at Ft Greely for a couple years.

Sam

[Boz330]

When I was in South Africa the folks down there thought the sun rose and set on the 7X57. They used it on just about everything, including, putting a hurt on the Brits in the Anglo Boer War at long distance. Great cartridge.

Bob

[3006guns]

A large number of Iranian Mauser carbines were imported back in the fifties, so it might be one of those......and yes, they are cute!

In fact, I wanted one so badly I shortened one of my 8mm Yugo M48's to the same size and moved the bayonet lug back to maintain the "military" appearance. This was the first gun I tried cast boolits in and it was an immediate sucess, VERY accurate with a PB 200 gr. boolit, so that little gun is always behind my pickup seat.

I'm working on a similar 7 x 57 project gun right now. Hey, if ya can't find one build yer own!

[Bullshop]

Brasso
Yes about 30 miles south going towards Tok.

MTGun44
With them spendy bullets it wouldn't take long before I had more in shooting it than I paid for it. That is the reason I started casting so many years ago, so I could afford to shoot. I do have a small stash of Rem or Win bulk 150s but when those are gone it will most likely be a boolit shooter while I have it.
I got real excited yesterday when way in the back of my bullet cash I found a very old yellow paper box of Speer 160gn bullets. On inspection I found these long blunt round nose parallel sided bullets I thought must have been made for this gun.
I brought them into my shop and slipped one in the muzzle to check the fit and it dropped through the barrel. SHOCK!!!! Restart heart!!! On closer inspection I found they are .277" for the 270 cal, BUMMER! The box of factory that came with the gun are 175gn RN with large blue noses. I likely wont shoot them but pas them on with the gun when it leaves here someday.

[Ben]

No photos, Ummmmm ?
We would love to see the rifle.

[djoiner]

I also have a 24/30 venezuelan. I get it out sometimes just to admire it. such a neat little weapon. I need to get a mold to cast for it. Anyone have any sugestions. I have reloaded some Remington corelock 150's and just did some plinking.

[Hang Fire]

A local guy had a little 7mm Mauser Columbian carbine for sale. Must have been cute as a bug's ear at one time, but like many a faded beauty, it had also been rode hard and put away wet too many times. He was asking 300 $ for it, but couldn't see it for half the price, it was in very bad shape, the bore looked like 40 miles of a bad gravel road.

[MtGun44]

Dan,

For just shooting, boolits are great. For actually hunting, I don't know how many shots you
would take in a year, but for me it would be well under 20. A box of the Hornady bullets is
about $30 for 100. Use half for development, and then you have 50 rds "for serious".
No doubt for most shooting, boolits are FAR cheaper.

I may seriously underestimate what your ammo consumption would be. You may be doing
a whole bunch more REAL shooting at live animals than I expect.

As to the fancy bullets like Nosler and Barnes - - - - I gotta agree. But, at least for me,
the Hornady 175 RN are pretty cheap. But I bought about 20 boxes back a number of
years ago for cheap.

Bill

[gnoahhh]

A long blunt/FN cast bullet in 7mm at a tad over 2000fps should be good medicine for a black bear I would think. Depending on the chance encounter with a grizzly bear up there, I would probably load it with heavy jacketed bullets just in case of a serious social encounter with one while cruising on a dirt bike.

That is a fine carbine. I'm not much into milsurps anymore but one of those would jump off of a dealers table and into my hands. More than a little jealous here!

[Bullshop]

Little gun = big disappointment, BUMMER!!!
I just cant get this thing to shoot. I tried several powders, two weights of bullets, and one boolit. All are tipping and wont stay on a 2'x2' target at 100 yards.
I took it apart for inspection and can not find a thing wrong with it accept that it has a very long throat. Other than the long throat I see nothing wrong with the barrel, bore, or crown. The bedding is tight and solid no fault there. It has really got me stumped.

The only way I got it to shoot half way decent and make round holes in paper was with cast boolits and a little trick I learned somewhere to help make a gas seal.
Shooting a 160gn boolit with a starting load of 4895 for a bullet of the same weight then filling the case with granulated wax and compressing with the boolit. With that load it is barely acceptable for an iron sighted carbine. Since that limits the guns use too much I have decided to sell it.
I will not offer it here because I dont want anyone here to be disappointed with it and me.
To look at the condition of the thing you would think it would do well but for my effort that was not the case.
Be warned! Don't bid if you happen to see this at an auction.
I am hoping maybe a collector that wont shoot it will be happy with it. It really is a handsom little gun. Too Bad!

[Multigunner]

Little gun = big disappointment, BUMMER!!!
I just cant get this thing to shoot. I tried several powders, two weights of bullets, and one boolit. All are tipping and wont stay on a 2'x2' target at 100 yards.
I took it apart for inspection and can not find a thing wrong with it accept that it has a very long throat. Other than the long throat I see nothing wrong with the barrel, bore, or crown. The bedding is tight and solid no fault there. It has really got me stumped.

The only way I got it to shoot half way decent and make round holes in paper was with cast boolits and a little trick I learned somewhere to help make a gas seal.
Shooting a 160gn boolit with a starting load of 4895 for a bullet of the same weight then filling the case with granulated wax and compressing with the boolit. With that load it is barely acceptable for an iron sighted carbine. Since that limits the guns use too much I have decided to sell it.
I will not offer it here because I dont want anyone here to be disappointed with it and me.
To look at the condition of the thing you would think it would do well but for my effort that was not the case.
Be warned! Don't bid if you happen to see this at an auction.
I am hoping maybe a collector that wont shoot it will be happy with it. It really is a handsom little gun. Too Bad!

Try IMR 4198, its just the thing for short barreled centerfire carbines.

I'm sure that this carbine can be made to shoot well, at least so long as it has the factory original barrel.
I have run across rebarreled 91 Mauser carbines that were fitted with cut down and turned long rifle barrels. The problem there is that one reason Mauser chose to use the stepped barrel for long rifles was that the stepped barrel could still be accurate if the bore wandered.
One arsenal rebarreled 91 Carbine I inspected had the bore so far off center at the muzzle that it should have been impossible not to notice it before it left the armory. it was about 1/8" off center. The crown was turned on center, but this made the situation worse rather than better.
A real shame because that carbine looked better than any other of its type that I've seen. It looked like it was fresh from the factory.

The long rifle barrel this was made from probably showed no outwards sign of a wandering bore. Only when the barrel was cut would it have been visible.

The British had once taken great pains to straighten out any wandering before finishing the barrel. They inspected the bores by eye and used a hand turned arbor to slowly correct any deviation.
In later years they discovered that so long as the last six inches of the bore was straight the barrel would shoot well, so from then on they only gauged the last six inches of bore for straightness.
Because of this production short cut some shortened No.4 barrels don't shoot for beans.
Main problem with bore wander is when the barrel heats up, which tends to warp the barrel to one side.

If I could afford another rifle right now I'd really like to have one of these FN Carbines.

PS
My best group with the 7.92 Persian Mauser Carbine was a 1 5/8 ten shot group with iron sights. That was with handloads using 4198 and a 160 grain bullet. I don't remember the charge weight, but it was a reduced velocity load not much over 30 grains.

[Bullshop]

This gun has the stepped barrel too, only the steps are shorter length.
Any ideas on why it would be tipping jacketed bullets. I tried both 175 and 150gn Rem bulk and both were tipping badly at 100 yards.
It did the same with cast until I tried the granulated wax trick. I tried the wax with the jacketed bullets but it did not help.
I once had a 7mm Rem roller with a terrible looking barrel but it out shot this carbine by a country mile. The barrel on this carbine looks real good. The lands look good although a little rounded on the edges and the grooves are not quite shiny but not dark either. I just for the life of me do not understand why it is tipping the jacketed bullets.

[Multigunner]

This gun has the stepped barrel too, only the steps are shorter length.
Any ideas on why it would be tipping jacketed bullets. I tried both 175 and 150gn Rem bulk and both were tipping badly at 100 yards.
It did the same with cast until I tried the granulated wax trick. I tried the wax with the jacketed bullets but it did not help.
I once had a 7mm Rem roller with a terrible looking barrel but it out shot this carbine by a country mile. The barrel on this carbine looks real good. The lands look good although a little rounded on the edges and the grooves are not quite shiny but not dark either. I just for the life of me do not understand why it is tipping the jacketed bullets.

Have you slugged the bore?
Keyholing or elongated bulletholes are usually the result of the bore being oversized for the bullet.
The long freebore itself may be over sized, allowing blowby that overheats or damages the bullet jacket before it is engraved, which would lead to slippage.

Can't say what the cause is without close examination.

[swheeler]

Dan does it slug larger groove diameter at the muzzle than at the breech? Not that common, but happens, and will make it shoot patterns.

[Bullshop]

This is interesting! I can drop a 175gn bullet in the breach and easily close the bolt on a sized case.
The barrel slugs .2892" at the muzzle and .2927" at the breach.
A slug driven through gets progressively tighter from breach to muzzle.
That's .0035" taper between breach and muzzle but still .0052 over what a 7mm groove should be at the muzzle.
So with any expectation for this to shoot it will need bullets of about .293" or boolits of about .295" if a cartridge loaded with such a fat bullet/boolit would even chamber.
The boolits I shot with the granulated wax were sized .285" so were .010" under what we would consider a good fit.
I dont see much hope here. Any ideas?

[fatnhappy]

This is interesting! I can drop a 175gn bullet in the breach and easily close the bolt on a sized case.
The barrel slugs .2892" at the muzzle and .2927" at the breach.
A slug driven through gets progressively tighter from breach to muzzle.
That's .0035" taper between breach and muzzle but still .0052 over what a 7mm groove should be at the muzzle.
So with any expectation for this to shoot it will need bullets of about .293" or boolits of about .295" if a cartridge loaded with such a fat bullet/boolit would even chamber.
The boolits I shot with the granulated wax were sized .285" so were .010" under what we would consider a good fit.
I dont see much hope here. Any ideas?

that's a tough one Bullshop. you should probably just sell it to me.

Seriously, what's the bore diameter? I'm thinking a fat loverin or something with a tapered major diameter like the NOE 7mm hunter will probably be the ticket. If there's a 7mm hunter rerun NOE may be able to fatten up one of those for you. I have one of those 120 grain lyman loverins that runs .289 as cast with WW but given the length of military throats I don't hold much hope for it. You're welcome to try it though.

When all is said and done paper patching a .270 boolit might be the easiest way to turn it into a CB shooter.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

Unfortuneately that over size groove/bore diameter is a problem with many milsurp 7mm's. Or perhaps our .284 diameter were undersized? I think, if I recall correctly, the bore size difference comes from the difference between the European size and the British size, we adpted the British size. My older original RCBS 28-168-FN shoots really well sized at what it drops at - .288" out of my .288" M95 Chilean M95. Don't think it would help your carbine much though. I've run into your problem several times with other 7x57 milsurps, probably why you got the "deal" on it:sad:

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

fatnhappy
Make me an offer.
I did try patching some 270 boolits with terrible results. They hit the target sideways.
I loaded as fat as possible in fired cases because sized case necks would not accept them. I think the long throat is allowing the patch to get blown off or burned off.

Larry
I am afraid you are right. I thought for a moment about sending it to Jess to re-bore to 9 x 57 but then decided it may become too brutal to shoot. I wounder if 8mm would clean it up. For the $225.00 re-bore I would have $400.00 total in it but it would have a fresh bore. May be the only way to save it.

[fatnhappy]

fatnhappy
Make me an offer.
I did try patching some 270 boolits with terrible results. They hit the target sideways.
I loaded as fat as possible in fired cases because sized case necks would not accept them. I think the long throat is allowing the patch to get blown off or burned off.


Here's the offer. I'll send it to you this week. Send it back when you're done trying it.

[Multigunner]

If it were mine and no suitable 7mm barrel (I'd much prefer it stay a 7mm) could be found I'd consider having a .308 Winchester barrel made for it. The action should be plenty strong enough, though I have my doubts about the safety of some of the available 7.62 NATO and some heavy bullet long range match ammo in .308.
Since handloading is a factor you can of course taylor your loads to suit the carbine.

There were carbine length German manufacture 7mm Mauser replacement barrels for large ring actions advertised for sale some years ago, but I doubt any are left these days.
You might check Sarco.
Being milspec barrels they may be as loose as the one you have now. I think these came from South America, leftovers from refurbishment projects of long ago.
I forget which firm made those barrels but it was one of the top drawer manufacturers.

[doubs43]

There were carbine length German manufacture 7mm Mauser replacement barrels for large ring actions advertised for sale some years ago, but I doubt any are left these days.

Being milspec barrels they may be as loose as the one you have now. I think these came from South America, leftovers from refurbishment projects of long ago.
I forget which firm made those barrels but it was one of the top drawer manufacturers.

See post #3. I think you're referring to the barrels I describe there and they were made by Mauser in Germany.

[Multigunner]

Well Sarco still has the carbine barrels listed

M98 MSR Barrel, Carbine 7x57mm 19" long for '98 large ring - new in the white, perfect in & out, German made
MSR110 M98 MSR Barrel Carbine new 7x57mm 19" Large ring, in the white, bores perfect, pitted in areas on outside from storage spacers.


I think those I first saw advertised were from some other manufacturer rather than from Mauser.

[MtGun44]

The factory 19" bbl sounds like the way to go.

Regardless of the bore size, a .0035 reverse taper is pretty grim, can't see how it could
work.

Good luck. 7x57 is a great cartridge, but some of the bores are amazingly weird.

Bill

[blastit37]

I picked one of those barrels on the cheap, it is pitted on the outside but looks unfired on the inside. It slugged .267 as it should. I read somewhere they were replacements made by mauser for the Braz model 1922 that were surplused. Its a large ring but my plan is to turn down the shank and use it on a shot-out small ring carbine.

[mooman76]

Sounds like the rifle I have only my barrel isn't quite that short but barely gets on 2x2 paper at 25y. Nothing seemed to help.

[Bullshop]

MTGun44
That was not a reverse taper. It is from breach to muzzle.
Today I made a bump die to alter boolits from an RCBS mold to fit the rifle. When done the boolits measure .281" on the bore ride nose section and .293" on the drive bands. I used a flat nose punch to test the die and it looks about spot on for fit at the muzzle.
Now I have to make a better nose punch and will give them a try. I think this might get some decent accuracy out of it. I have still lost interest in keeping it but before I let it go I just want to get it to shoot. Kind of a never say die thing dont ya know.

[Bullshop]

Today FINALLY! Success.
I made a decent nose punch for the bump die. The new bumped boolit is a perfect fit in this oversize barrel.
I loaded up 5 and stepped out to the range. First shot fired at 25 yards off hand made a nice round hole just off center in the 4" bull.
Dropping back to 100 yards the next 4 shots went into a group .75" wide x 2.9" high.
That front sight is awfully fuzzy so I am not surprised by the vertical string.
So it looks like this little bugger will shoot after all. Before bumping boolits it wouldn't keep shots in a 2 foot square. Now I can live with 3" groups. I am pretty sure that better eyes could do better still.
I am glad I didn't quit on it. The victory is sweet.

[Bullshop]

I have a question about these Mauser's. Are the front sights soldered on?[
I dont see any pins or anything holding it.

[doubs43]

I have a question about these Mauser's. Are the front sights soldered on?[
I dont see any pins or anything holding it.

Yes, they are. I've seen some with a set screw that is hidden by the sight blade. Maybe all of them have that screw? I've seen some but not enough to theorize on the screw being standard.

My gunsmith was fond of using Accra-glas to hold sight bases in place. He also used it to hold the front sights on 1911's in place along with staking them. He never had one returned because the front sight fell off.

[MtGun44]

Yes, soft soldered on.

Well, done Dan! Glad it wasn't reverse tapered! That seemed pretty hopeless. Heck, now
that you have it working . . . . . . you going to use it? Look for a swede front sight, they are
flat topped, MUCH better than the pointy ones.

Just shows how 'magical' a knowledgeable expert with boolits can be on a "worthless"
gun.

Bill

[Bullshop]

Thanks all for the sight help and the well done. I am still glowing with delight from that.
The load I have settled on so far is about 25gn Reloader #7 with the 160gn bumped boolit.
It is shooting pretty darn good and power wise should be on par with a factory 30/30 170gn load. That is a good usable power range.
It would be nice to have an M die made for my Mighty Might presses to bump up factory jacketed bullets but I doubt I will ever spring for that.
This has been interesting and fun.

[HangFireW8]

Bull,

I'm coming in a little late. I have a FN M54 shorty in 30-06, it was a safe queen for years because it liked no load. It barely stayed on the paper at 50Y. Finally I slugged it for cast bullets, and lo and behold it was a .310" bore, once I sized boolits for it properly (and glass bedded it) it shoots like a house on fire.

Curiously I later used it to shoot up some old handloads and found that it did like a standard j-bullet, the 165gr Sierra HP Game King. I had tried other boat-tails with no luck... why it likes this bullet, I have NO idea.

[Junior1942]

Let me 3rd (4th?) the motion on the 175 gr RN Hornady. I get moderate expansion with it even at 1600 fps from a 10" 7mm TCU. That's the same expansion as from a 7x57 @ 2200 fps muzzle velocity @ 225 yards.

[Bullshop]

HangFireW8
My guess on why that bullet worked is that it was a soft bullet and it obturated enough to hold the groove.
As for hoping to find one that this carbine will shoot well I feel there is little hope.
.0093" over at the breach is just too much.
Yesterday while I was shooting some of the bumped boolits and pretty much keeping them in about a 4" group well centered on target I thought I would try a factory Winchester round. It was a long parallel sided 175gn RN. It never touched the target backer. Just not much to work with there.
I am beginning to whine about one of the $40.00 Sarco barrels. I am hoping BS Mom will get tired of hearing about it soon.

[MtGun44]

I think that Bret needs to stop by and note that --


FIT IS KING! :bigsmyl2:


Bill

[Bullshop]

Nicks on the Sarco barrel. I just spoke to someone that told me they got one and it had a .289" groove. Are these out of speck barrels or did they just make them that way?
I thought 7mm milsurp rifles had a reputation for good accuracy.

[Multigunner]

Nicks on the Sarco barrel. I just spoke to someone that told me they got one and it had a .289" groove. Are these out of speck barrels or did they just make them that way?
I thought 7mm milsurp rifles had a reputation for good accuracy.

The Long rifles and short rifles have a very good rep for accuracy, but I suspect that it has something to do with bullet construction suited for very worn or over size bores.
Some non U S rifles depended on significant bullet bump up, the bores being manufactured over sized to reduce possibility of excessive pressure should the rifle not receive a proper clearing away of metal fouling for many months or years of heavy combat. Cupro-Nickel was notoriously difficult to remove, and could thickly plate the bore after thousands of rounds fired without the rifle being subjected to the very time consuming and difficult removal process.
U S troops were ordered to never try to remove Cupro-Nickel fouling themselves, they turned a badly metal fouled rifle over to a Sgt or other non-com to have it given the full treatment.

The first shot I fired with the 1895 Mauser long rifle I owned many years ago was an offhand and speculative shot, using an original Remington UMC milspec cartridge.
I hit a beer can with that first shot at a range well over two hundred yards.

U S military rifles from the 1903 onwards have had bores and bullets matched in size as closely as possible.
The Krag generally has a bore at least two thousandths over the bullet dia. The Krag and most European military rifles of the early smokeless powder era used cartridges loaded with high nitroglycen content double base powders. These propellents give a strong initial acceleration which aids in bumping up to fill out a freebore or a badly worn leade.
Most Cupro-Nickel jackets were in fact mild steel jackets , which might also be a factor in preventing skiding at origin of rifling ,and insuring that the bullet is well gripped by the rifling.

Most modern double base powders have much smaller nitroglycerin content (7-8% compared to up to 60% for some turn of the century powders, and Remington seems to stick to single base powders these days.
These powders may not be suitable for some mil spec Mauser bores. Not enough bump up.

[Bullshop]

So with that in mind would you suggest a currently available powder that might work with the bullet diameters currently commercially available?

[Multigunner]

So with that in mind would you suggest a currently available powder that might work with the bullet diameters currently commercially available?

While I've had great success with 4198 and my 8mm Carbine, I haven't tried it with a carbine that had such a loose bullet to bore fit as of yet.
A friend tried 4198 with his No.5 carbine, Enfields having notorious over sized bores of .314 and up, and got great results with .311 180 grain bullets that did not shoot nearly as well with slower powders.

Hornady produces bullets in the .312 diameter that are constructed to bump up well in oversized Enfield and Jap 7.7 bores. I don't know if they make a similar 7mm bullet. You might Email the company and ask about their 7mm line of bullets.

Most 7mm bullets these days are constructed from use in high intensity chamberings like the 7mm Remington Magnum, so they aren't well suited for oversized 7mm Mauser bores.

Kynamco manufactures a target round for the .303 Enfields using surplus MkVII bullets. To get the proper bump up they use a proprietary blended powder charge.

[blastit37]

Ran anouther slug down my SARCO barrel and it came out .2861 again. Believe what you want!

[Bullshop]

I see that Shroader Bullet Works offers a .287" diameter bullet. Even that is still quite some smaller than the breach end of my barrel at about .293"
It may be the best bet if it is a thin jacket and pure lead core.

Another thing I may try is annealing factory bullets. I had some old Barns originals with thick copper jacket. They were too hard to expand in a 45/70 so I set them upright on a hot wood stove hot enough to melt the core. Once they cooled they were much softer and expanded nicely from the 45/70. Might be worth a try.

Blastit37
It was not you I was referring to. It was outside this thread via email with a friend. His barrel was not from Sarco but was also a milsurp replacement barrel. I just dont know if I want to toss the dice and gamble on getting a good one.

[doubs43]

The first shot I fired with the 1895 Mauser long rifle I owned many years ago was an offhand and speculative shot, using an original Remington UMC milspec cartridge. I hit a beer can with that first shot at a range well over two hundred yards.

In early 1968 I bought an 1895 Chilean Mauser from a hardware story in Tacoma, WA. They probably had 50 or 60 on racks to choose from. It was $18.95 as I recall. I had the barrel cut to 24", bolt handle turned down for a scope, D&T'd and Weaver bases installed. I bought a 4X Bushnell Banner scope and cut down the stock which I refinished. My total in the rifle came to $56.25.

Then I bought a Lee Reloader, a box of Hornady 120 grain bullets, cases, primers and a pound of surplus 4895. The powder was $2.00.

Over the next 10 years I made some remarkable shots with that rifle, including a groundhog at roughly 250 yards with only his head showing over a fallen tree. Another shot I remember was a rabbit in NM at 300 yards or more. I was on a hilltop and saw the rabbit sitting in a wash. My first shot was very close so I corrected and the second shot killed it. I sold the rifle to a friend in NM about 1980.

I presently own three 7x57 Mauser rifles: a Remington 700 Classic, a 1922 Brazilian short rifle or carbine (Made by FN) and a 1912 Chilean Mauser that has a new and correct surplus barrel. They all shoot accurately. The 7x57mm cartridge is one of the best.

[Larry Gibson]

I've slugged numerous milsurp 7x57s over the years and have found them to range from .286 - .289. Those barrels are not really "oversize" as that's the way they were intended to be. Our 7mm barrels are "undersized" actually and, again, based on the British 7mm sze. I've also collected numerous milsurp 7x57 cartridges from various countries going back to some 1917 and 1918 stuff. The bullets mike from .2849 to .2886". I also pressure test most of it that was in good condition (pulled bullets and inspected the powder) and would go bang. Those that wouldn't fire I put in WW cases with WLR primers. The psi(M43) measured were right up with modern standards. Those that think those old M93/M95s were "designed" for only 45,000 psi are sadly mistaken.

FYI; the 1917/18 (Spanish made) 172 gr milsurp ammo ran 54,500 psi at 2295 fps out of my 22" barreled M95 (original milsurp barrel, just shortened). The 154 gr PS 50 & 51 ran 59,400 psi at 2442 fps. Most of the other 154 gr milsurps also run 55 - 60,000 psi. Cavim 84 is really good milsurp and ran 45,700 psi at 2590 fps with the 139 gr FMJBT, it is pretty accurate in my M95 also. Both Remington and Winchester factory 175s run 2380 fps at 48 - 50,000 psi. I push the Hornady 175 RN at 2400 fps with 4831 at 51,800 psi with excellent accuracy out of my M95 and it is quite deadly on big game.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

I push the Hornady 175 gr RN at 2400 or so with IMR 4831 in several different Mausers
and a Ruger with excellent accy. Like Sub 2" with dead stock Chilean 1895 and Brazilian
1908. If the surplus bbls are any good, you should be able to get this kind of accy, but I
am shooting in 29.5" bbls, so the shorter will likely lose some velocity. May be recoverable
by using a faster powder like 4064 or 4895.

Bill

[Multigunner]

I've slugged numerous milsurp 7x57s over the years and have found them to range from .286 - .289. Those barrels are not really "oversize" as that's the way they were intended to be. Our 7mm barrels are "undersized" actually and, again, based on the British 7mm sze. I've also collected numerous milsurp 7x57 cartridges from various countries going back to some 1917 and 1918 stuff. The bullets mike from .2849 to .2886". I also pressure test most of it that was in good condition (pulled bullets and inspected the powder) and would go bang. Those that wouldn't fire I put in WW cases with WLR primers. The psi(M43) measured were right up with modern standards. Those that think those old M93/M95s were "designed" for only 45,000 psi are sadly mistaken.

FYI; the 1917/18 (Spanish made) 172 gr milsurp ammo ran 54,500 psi at 2295 fps out of my 22" barreled M95 (original milsurp barrel, just shortened). The 154 gr PS 50 & 51 ran 59,400 psi at 2442 fps. Most of the other 154 gr milsurps also run 55 - 60,000 psi. Cavim 84 is really good milsurp and ran 45,700 psi at 2590 fps with the 139 gr FMJBT, it is pretty accurate in my M95 also. Both Remington and Winchester factory 175s run 2380 fps at 48 - 50,000 psi. I push the Hornady 175 RN at 2400 fps with 4831 at 51,800 psi with excellent accuracy out of my M95 and it is quite deadly on big game.

Larry Gibson

45,000 Copper Units of Pressure would be around or a bit over 50,000 PSI as measured by modern transducer methods.
How much the PSI figure exceeds the Copper Unit figure depends greatly on the design and capacity of the particular case. The .30 Carbine CUP pressures are the same as the PSI figure for that cartridge. Others have widely varying figures.

The original .30-06 cartridge generated about 48,000 CUP, the bolt of the 1895 should be strong enough for that pressure range. The later versions of the .30-06
Generated around 50,000 CUP, which would be in the neighborhood of 60,000 + PSI for that cartridge.

While the rifles can handle an unknowable number of cartridges loaded far above original design specs, military rifles were expected to remain in use for decades and many would incur bore damage through rust and metal fouling, and just plain old dirt getting into the bore during a battle or long march, so the ammunition chamber pressures were generally kept on the safe side.

The unpredictable results of propellents exposed to high temperatures was another factor. British manufacturers of sporting ammo found that loads worked up in England could damage rifles in India and Africa, due to the great difference in heat of the day. They then downloaded all ammo meant to be sent to tropical climes.

PS
I wonder if one could sucessfully swage down a .308 bullet to .286-.289 or there abouts.
Perhaps if the 7.35 Italian bullet was swaged down it would work better than swaging a .308 bullet.

[gnoahhh]

A bit of an expense I'll admit, but why not a custom mold for a larger diameter bullet that'll more closely fit the throat? It would probably entail inside neck reaming of the cases to accept it, and should be cast soft enough and driven slowly enough, to swage down as it passes through that tapered bore. More expense + PIA but that's the direction I would consider if I were looking at making this rifle perform.

[Bullshop]

I have been considering the custom mold/sizer die thing and that would work but using the bump die I made with the RCBS 145 Sil mold is pretty much doing that.
With a custom mold or the arrangement I have its a one boolit gun.
I would prefer more versatility. A good ( better than I can make) bump/swage die for jacketed bullets would give that versatility. The thing is that I would then have more invested in tools for making bullets than in the rifle. I am seating .293" bumped boolits now so there is room in the throat.
I am still shaking the dice on that Sarko barrel but maybe too chicken to roll them.

[Bullshop]

Swaging down is a posibility but I have read the results are not as good as swaging up.
It may require more than one step down to go from .308 to .289

[MtGun44]

Are you thinking about swaging down Jbullets from .308 to .289? I'd say it was prolly
doable, but you sure better have a good lube, like Imperial Die Wax or similar.

Bill

[Bullshop]

No I dont really want to do that. I have done it but not more than a couple thousandths.
More than that and the bullet just bulges outside the die and is ruined.
I have 6 of the mighty might presses and a wallnut hill press. A bump die for any of those presses to bump up standard .284" 7mm bullets to the desired diameter would be the way to go. That would give some versatility in bullet weight too. I would want to go with a round nose punch design. That should work very nicely but like I said that bump die from Corbin would be more than I paid for the gun and it would be a one gun tool.

[Multigunner]

A bullet I pulled from an old 7.65X53 cartridge miked .312 above the crimping groove, .313 below the crimp groove, and .314 at the base.
This might have been due to the method used to crimp the bullet in manufacture, but I suspect this was deliberate, and intended to insure a good gas seal as the bullet began its acceleration. The less gas excaping as the bullet met the throat the easier it would be for the building gas pressure to bump up the bullet.

The average sporting bullet has an enclosed base and that base doesn't expand as the body of the bullet expands due to the terrific G forces of acceleration during the first few inches of bore travel. The open base of the standard FMJ bullet would provide something for the gas to work on directly, pushing the lead core into the jacket and the open base of the jacket its self could expand by a few thousandths since theres no material at the center to resist radial stretching.

A serious problem of early FMJ bullets was separation of the jacket at the crimping groove, due to the jackets becoming work hardened and brittle during the preliminary puching out of plated steel or copper alloy sheets. This embrittling also increased the likelyhood of core blow through.
To cure these issues the manufacturers began annealing the jackets, making them more flexible as well as tougher.
Some years back a European manufacturer supplied millions of 7.62 NATO bullets to Germany and possibly a few other NATO members. This manufacturer either skipped or failed to properly anneal the jackets. This ammo was withdrawn from service after a high profile shooting by a German Police marksman during a stand off. The bullet disintegrated causing a horrific wound that stunned all involved.
When it was found that such horrible wounds could be expected from these bullet the Germans had to stop using them, mainly because despite all the misdeeds of the German military in the past, they always stuck to the Hague protocols on inhumane bullets.

Thats a rather long winded way of getting around to saying that milspec ammunition of days gone by used bullets specifically designed and manufactured to hold together and conform to the bore even if the jacket was severely stretched in the process.

It might pay to look around for 7mm bullets known to come apart too easily if fired from a 7mm Magnum rifle. That sort of short coming may indicate that the bullet would be better suited to the milder pressures and acceleration of the 7mm Mauser.

One might drop a line to NORMA and ask if they produce a bullet well suited to the 7mm with generous bore dimensions.
They have produced 8mmJ bore sporting ammunition, and the Gew88 is well known for using a severely undersized bullet that relied on significant bump up.
Perhaps they still manufacture a bullet for the various 7mm sporting cartridges used in Drillings as well as bolt action sporting rifles. Such a bullet would likely bump up far better than the bullets of more modern design intended for magnum power levels and weight retention after ultra high velocity impact and traveling deep into an animal's body.

I suspect that the U S arms and ammunition manufacturers choice to closely fit bullet to bore size and the tighter bores of 7mm sporting rifles has affected the design and mabufacture of 7mm sporting bullets. the bullets are just not intended to bump up to any noticable degree, much less near .01 over nominal bullet size.

Also I suspect that addition of an over the charge card of some sort would reduce gas escape as the bullet leaves the case mouth. This would reduce gas erosion of the already loose throat. The over the charge card of the British milspec MkVII and earlier marks of the .303 reduced throat erosion due to the ultra high flame temperature of Cordite to one sixth that of the same cartridge loaded without the card.
That card was inserted over the cordite charge before the neck and shoulder were formed. Inserting such a card while handloading might be very difficult.
If a way can be found to insert such a card or similar wadding that would hold up for the first few inches of bore travel , there would be little likelyhood of bullet jackets and bases being damaged by blowby.

I've heard that some Canadian manufacture .303 ammo was found to use a very different over the charge card. rather than a single thick piece of glazeboard this ammo had three paper thin flexible cards. I suspect that this sort of wad could be loaded into a case which already had the neck and shoulder formed. One thin flexible card inserted then another, and another.

PS
Boat tail bullets seldom if ever shoot well from an oversized bore. This was found out early on when few Enfield could shoot the Mk8z ammo with boat tail bullets very well. When used in a barrel with bore size at the minimum, and the throat not already eroded by cordite, the Mk8z ammo was very accurate and often prefered by British snipers.
If the rifle had previously been fired using cordite loaded MkVII ammo it might keyhole every shot with Mk8z yet remain highly accurate when using MkVII ammo.
Trying boat tail bullets with the carbine in question would likely be a waste of time

[MtGun44]

Dan,

I can send you a handful of Hornady 175 gr RN jbullets if you want to try bumping a few
up.

Bill

[Bullshop]

Thanks for the offer Bill but I will decline. The bump die I made is of mild steel and works OK for cast but would likely not hold up for jacketed.
I also made it specificaly for the RCBS 7mm/145 Sil design. That is that its a two diameter boolit. This way each part of the boolit, the bore diameter nose and the groove diameter shank each bump up an equal amount.
I have considered hardening the die but that is as far as I have gotten with it, not past thinking.
When I get some help from Jr. I hope to offer a few pics of what I have been talking about with this before this thread goes away. It might be helpful to someone somewhere down the road.
The die was simple to make but makes such a big difference in making this carbine shoot.