Gas checks and light 45 boolit mold

[ace1001]

I am loading for two stainless Rossi 92s in 45 cal. using Red Dot powder. Without gas checks, using 250 gr. commercial lead boolits I got gas cutting with 11.2 grains. Worked fine at 10.8. With my own 230 gr. tumble lube truncated cones I could not even handle 10.8. What I THINK I want is a 200-230gr. possibly hollowpoint, possibly tumble lube, mold with a gas check, to get the muzzle velocity I crave. Does anyone know where I can get such a mold? Ace

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, Ace!

Boolit fit is perhaps the most critical element in the prevention of gas cutting and its attendant leading. Even gas checked boolits can gas cut and lead the bore--you just won't see it, because the GC scrapes the leading out after it gets deposited ahead of the boolit. The loads you specify aren't ultra-intense......I think you're dealing with a fit problem. Slug or cast the throat, and slug the bore to see what you are working with--then use boolits at or .001" larger than throat diameter.

[ace1001]

I agree that I should cast both of these rifles before I buy a specialty mold. What do you think of the type of mold I describe? I believe I am pushing 1600 fps when my problem occures. Ace

[Dale53]

1600 fps is kind of pushing the envelope when talking about a plain base bullet. In the Schuetzen world, we are getting precision results (½ minute accuracy) up to and including 1500 fps. Above that it's a "maybe" situation.

If I were planning on steady use above 1600 fps I would definitely suggest a gas check. However, whatever I did with bullet design, I would proceed to slug throat and barrel and be guided in bullet dimensions by what you find.

Just an after thought: If you are going to be shooting many of these you may want to re-think the hollow point. I reserve hollow points to specific hunting tasks. I don't need many of them. For general shooting, I use plain nose bullets that allows me to do some volume in casting (never at the cost of quality, of course). For instance: I have a hollow point 45/70 bullet (330 Gr Gould) and I have access to a matching four cavity Lyman Mould that makes four plain base, plain nose bullets of the same design without the hollowpoint. That way I can have hollow points when I need them and practice with "non hollow points" where I can cast some volume.

Dale53

[44man]

Dale and Deputy are correct in that boolit fit comes first. Then I would say the proper lube, then a powder that does not peak too fast, then a boolit of the proper hardness. I have shot plain base boolits out of my 45-70 BFR at near 1800 fps without leading. I like gas checked boolits but still get good results with plain bases. I think that a gas check just supplies a hard drive band to take rifling better when shot fast but if you harden the plain base it will shoot pretty fast as long as the fit is good. What normally happens is when a PB boolit is driven too fast and is too soft, it will skid, opening up channels for hot gas to go. Recovered boolits should show no wide, tapered rifling marks. Grooves on the boolit should be the same size as the rifling. Once you exceed the ability of a boolit to take the twist, gas cutting will occur.

[Larry Gibson]

Gotta agree with Dale53; that is a real "over the top load" for a plain base bullet with Red Dot. In my Rossi 24" rifle I push PB bullets into the 1300 fps range without leading (I use Javelina lube) with the faster powders (Bulleseye, Red Dot and Unique). Above that and they lead. I push the 454424 (.454") to 1600 fps without leading with H4227. I've a 452490 GC (245 gr w/WWs) that I have pushed to 1800+ fps with very good results but the cresent butt plate gets abusive.

Mostly I stick with loads compatable with the Uberti SSA revolver. However if one doesn't have a Colt type revoler or has a Ruger then the higher end .45 loads are worthwhile. It shouldn't be to hard to get a GC mould in the 230-250 gr range. The SWC 452490 is a good one if you can find a used one.

Larry Gibson

[ace1001]

I am trying to flatten the trajectory on my 92s. The idea for the hollow point was to stay light and long with the weight in the back. Gas check because the FPS is going to go up as the bullet weight decreases, thus beyond the edge I'm on now. My pistols have a whole different load. I don't dare shoot these even in my Rugers. I'm having trouble finding a light bullet with a gas check. Ace

[Ricochet]

Why in the world are you trying to get the velocity you crave with Red Dot? You'd do a whole lot better getting that velocity with a slower burning powder at a lower pressure.

[ace1001]

Partly because I have lots of the stuff, and I wanted it to burn completely in a 20 inch barrel. It is hard to find rifle data on pistol rounds. I tried some slower rifle powders and they didn't burn completely and left a lot of residue.
I'm open to suggestions. Ace

[9.3X62AL]

2400 or 4227 come to mind as powders appropriate for the work you're trying to do, and shouldn't be very dirty.

What sort of work are you planning for this load--hunting venues?

Take a look at NEI handtools' website. I think they can produce something you can put to use.

www.neihandtools.com

[ace1001]

All my shooting is hunting or preparation for hunting. Shoot a thousand rounds with the same balistics as your hunting rounds, at every range, so one round will be plenty when it counts. This is my philosophy.
My practice round would not have to be a hp but it would have to have the same tragectory. Ace

[Ricochet]

Blue Dot would be another reasonable choice.

[Ricochet]

Or AA #7 and AA #9. Or WW296, or H110.

[ace1001]

With the shorter barrel shotguns, Red dot is the powder of choice, because it can burn in 18 inches. I'm still well below the pressure limitations of a 92. Which of these are rifle powders that I could use on say .223 or 30.06? Ace

[44man]

Any of the slow pistol and shotgun powders like 296 will burn in a short revolver barrel so a 20" barrel is no problem. It will be easier on a boolit base then red dot. Any load listed for a revolver will work in a rifle just fine and give you more velocity.
I would forget the tumble lube stuff for the higher velocities

[ace1001]

The fact that the muzzle velocity goes up on the rifle is proof that much of the powder is still burning on the outside of the pistol barrel. Some of that cannot be helped. I think I will try 2400, there is old rifle data on that. Ace

[Bass Ackward]

Ace,

I like your logic on the bullet. But you lost me on the powder.

Some good advise here for you. What it shows is that you can be as simple or complicated as you want to be.

Cast bullets survive by launching them at a pressure that the base of the bullet can handle based on all your launch conditions. This means things like bore size and finish to lube and mix hardness. That max pressure level can result in velocities from 600 fps with Bullseye or 1600 fps with 4227. You simply have to either find a speed and accept where the bullet is happy.

Or you can take charge and force it to be happy at the speed /burn rate you want to operate by changing variables. things like adjusting hardness, or changing to a better lube, or going to a hotter primer to get the stuff to burn the way you want. And the list and techniques go on and on.

Be patient. In ten .... or twenty years, you'll get the hang of it.

[44man]

Ace, what you forget about is the pressure loss of the cylinder gap in the revolver. The only time for a large loss and unburned powder is when shooting a slow powder from 2" and 4" barrels. Even with 296, H110 and 4227 in a 6" to 10" barrel there might be a small loss but you will still get much higher velocities at a lower pressure then any fast powder because of the way the pressure curve is developed.
I would never use red dot in any of my revolvers except for a very light tin can load, I prefer Unique and 231 though, both of which lower the pressure and extend the curve and are easier on a boolit base. For hot loads, only 296 goes in my guns.
My 45-70 BFR only gets 4759 because it fills the case good, burns clean, gives me good velocity and so far shoots the tightest groups. No pressure spikes either.
Trying to increase velocity with red dot does not sit well with me or anyone else here.

[Bret4207]

Welcome to the asylum Ace. As much as I love Red Dot, there are better powders available to boost the velocity while maintaining a better bore seal and reducing the problems areas. 2400, 296, H-110 are all possbilities. Finding the balance point is the key. That and fitting the booilt to the throat. Lubes can only help so much, so if you really want to push the envelope make a chamber/throat cast and try to go .001/.002 over bore size and maybe even a bit "fatter" if the throat will allow it. Obviously there comes a point where you can't go any fatter, but I've seen +.005 booilts shoot very well, especially from poor barrels.

Hollow pointing is great, but time consuming. If you want to shoot thousands of rounds with HP's you're going to have to come up with a real time saver we haven't thought of yet. If you go through the archives here you'll see a lot of info on results guys have found and options available. Metplat size can be just as effective with the right alloy. Also consider the reduced penetration vs. expansion issue with hollow points and the problem of finding the perfect balance between alloy/metplat/hollow point/velocity/boolit design limits and accuracy.

As BA said, in 20 years you'll have it figured out, for the moment at least!

[ace1001]

My idea was to have a similar weight bullet to practice. I shot a deer this fall, went right through her with no apparent effect. Couldn't believe I could have missed. Chalked it up to adrenaline, She had stood behind a tree for about two minutes...my gun was getting really heavy by the time I got a shot. It was getting dark and no blood. By the time I found her, the meat was ruined. Should have bought some soft nose or HP bullets. Ace

[waksupi]

My idea was to have a similar weight bullet to practice. I shot a deer this fall, went right through her with no apparent effect. Couldn't believe I could have missed. Chalked it up to adrenaline, She had stood behind a tree for about two minutes...my gun was getting really heavy by the time I got a shot. It was getting dark and no blood. By the time I found her, the meat was ruined. Should have bought some soft nose or HP bullets. Ace


Hi Ace. Where did you hit this deer, that it had no effect? No blood? No hit, maybe? I've used down to 6.5 bore size, at around 1700 fps, and got lots of damage. Hit them anywhere with a .45, with a properly designed hunting bullet, it will have some effect, and you will have a blood trail.

[GooseGestapo]

I agree with the others. RedDot is a good powder for lighter target loads, but to start running the velocities up, you'll get much better results with #2400.

I use the Lee 310gr WFN-gascheck through my Win M94 and Ruger RedHawk.

I use an exceptionally accurate load of 20.0gr.

THIS WAY ABOVE MOST CHARTS AND IS FOR STRONG MODERN ACTION FIREARMS FOR WHICH IS WAS GIVEN ONLY.

That said, It'll do really well through your Rossi. It is the MOST accurate load I've tried through my RedHawk, give near 1-hole groups at 25yds.
Velocity is 1,175fps from my 5.5" bbl.
The Winny w/24"bbl runs 1,600fps. Accuracy is about 2" at 50yds.

RedDot is as, if not faster than Bullseye depending on application.

Either be satisfied with the velocity limitation, or switch powders.

I have had excellent luck with drilling a small HP on my SWC's and WFN's by simply using a wide shallow depression ranther than a deep small hole. It increses the surface area and gives nominal expansion and maintains the penetration capability.

An aircooled w/w bullet usually expands well at or above 1,500fps.

[44man]

A good hit on a deer with a pass through and then losing it, is due to poor boolit design for hunting, not how fast it was going. No blood and a lost deer can be a bad hit with any boolit. I would go to the 310 gr Lee, 296, H110 or 2400 powder and be done with it.
Post a picture of the boolit you are using so we can evaluate it.