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View Full Version : Bullet and bore allignment conundrum.



Molly
05-11-2011, 10:05 PM
I made a very interesting observation this afternoon, and it raises questions of the effects of how deeply we seat cast bullets that I'd like to invite comments on.

Bear with me a moment while I give you the background for my question. At a recent gun show, I picked up an ancient and substantially rusted US Revolver Co. breaktop in 38 S&W caliber. But most of the rust was on the outside, the action operated smoothly, and the cylinder allignment 'wasn't too bad'. The price was really right and I needed a new toy, so I took it home, wire brushed the rust off, gave it a couple of treatments with OxphoBlue, and lubricated it. I even found TWO 38 S&W cartridge cases in my piles of junk, so I decided to try some special purpose loads for it. I'm sometimes annoyed by raccoons, and I thought I might be able to put together a load light enough that it wouldn't kill them (leaving me with a lot of blood and a dead raccoon to dispose of) but would emphatically inform them that their attention wasn't welcome on my patio.

To this end, I decided to load both cases with a single 000 buckshot (36 caliber) and a small charge of HP38, because I didn't want to strain the integrity of this old revolver. To start things off, I put 0.5gr (That's right: Half a grain) of HP38 under the first one, and went wild and put a full grain under the second. Then I took them outside and 'fired for effect' at an old bit of plywood. I think the main reason I shot at the plywood was to see for sure whether the buckshot made it out of the barrel. And it did, with both loads. The half grain load made a pretty good dent, and the full grain actually managed to stick. I saw where the shot from the half grain landed, so I picked it up out of curiousity. And this is where the real story begins.

The ball showed full engraving on one side, and almost none at all on the other side. This surpirsed me, because I sort of assumed that any slight cylinder / bore mis-allignment would be corrected by the force of the ball entering the forcing cone. Curious, I dug the ball from the full grain shot out of the board, and it was almost exactly the same: Heavy engraving on one side, and not even full engraving on the other side of the ball.

Now I know that if I push a buchshot through the cylinder and barrel with a hammer and a steel rod, it will engrave about equally on both sides. (I tried it!) The only explanation I can think of is that the buckshot picked up enough velocity and inertia from the off-center cylinder that it flattened and engraved on the one side instead of centering itself like the pushed ball did. This slight flattening as the one side engraved was enough to keep the other side from fully engraving. At least, that's the explanation I'm going with unless one of you can come up with a better explanation.

Now we come to the question this raises: If the inertia of even such light loads could overcome the natural tendency of a bullet (ball) to center itself in a hole, how much worse would it be for a medium to heavy cast bullet load in a rifle? Ideal designs like 311291 have a nose to center the bullet in the bore before it's fired. But what about Loverin designs like 311467? For ease of operating the bolt, they are generally seated somewhat off the leade. It might be argued that they receive decent allignment from the neck of the cartridge, but then it could also be argued that they have so much more inertia that the effect would be even worse.

Me, I dunno. I DO know that I get my best results (accuracy) with the bullet forced into the leade as the bolt closes. I never understood just why that was so, but it was demonstratably true. Now I think I might know WHY seating bullets hard into the leade gives better accuracy.

So with that, I'll throw the thread open for coments, alternative explanations and objections. Gentlemen, what say you?

runfiverun
05-11-2011, 11:28 PM
i'm gonna have to come back on this one.
i do have some thoughts however.

leftiye
05-12-2011, 02:34 AM
Jumping from a revolter to a breech loading rifle kinda threw me off some, but I do take your point. The question I found interesting was more in line with when you asked about higher power revolver loads, and what chance they have to center the cylinder on the barrel. My best guess there has to do with maybe harder alloys , longer bearing surfaces allowing better centering. Also, I wonder if your revolter isn't out of time some? That would explain an inability to align (as in make it impossible). Either they do align when properly timed, or accuracy would be a lot worse that we do experience now, IMHO.

In the rifle, I think we're stuck with "start it off crooked - pay the price."

Multigunner
05-12-2011, 04:24 AM
When a normal full power load is used theres enough pressure and acceleration remaining to continue the bumping up process for a couple of inches of bullet travel.
If the bullet of a full power load fired in an out of time revolver shows full engraving all the way around, it may still not be centered in that the center of the nose of the bullet may no longer be on the axis of the bullet body.
If not so far out of time as to shave lead the difference may not be visible to the naked eye.

Molly
05-12-2011, 06:53 PM
Jumping from a revolter to a breech loading rifle kinda threw me off some, but I do take your point. The question I found interesting was more in line with when you asked about higher power revolver loads, and what chance they have to center the cylinder on the barrel. My best guess there has to do with maybe harder alloys , longer bearing surfaces allowing better centering. Also, I wonder if your revolter isn't out of time some? That would explain an inability to align (as in make it impossible). Either they do align when properly timed, or accuracy would be a lot worse that we do experience now, IMHO.

In the rifle, I think we're stuck with "start it off crooked - pay the price."

I haven't tried harder alloys, but would be amazed if increased hardness made any difference with higher loads when the buckshot didn't do any better with loads about as light as possible. They hardly had enough power to get out of the barrel. Lead's pretty soft, but the load was pretty low too! But when I get some cases in, I'll try some harder bullets and see what I get.

Molly
05-12-2011, 06:59 PM
After you cock it , can you rotate the cylinder any amount?
I'm trying to remember on those, when the trigger is depressed, that completes the cylinder lock up?
Is the groove diameter larger then .360" ?

Yes, the correct way to check cylinder play in most of these older fliptops is to check it in 'firing condition', or with the hammer down and the trigger all the way to the rear. So tested, my revolver has very little cylinder side play, a few thousandths perhaps. I've seen worse on some Smiths.

Not too sure about groove dia. haven't measured it, but I don't see what difference that would make in the ball striking off center. Off center is off center, no matter what hole it's off center from.

klcarroll
05-12-2011, 10:31 PM
Hmmmmm.............

Assuming a scenario where the ball is undersized for the rifled bore, and the loading is a low pressure load that produces little "upsetting" in the projectile; ......I am wondering if gas escaping past one side of the ball could apply enough of a "side thrust" to explain the asymmetrical engraving on the ball............... (???)


Kent

RicinYakima
05-12-2011, 11:05 PM
It is very much worse in the rifle with both 311291 and 314299. As you know I have been shooting the 03 Springfield alot the last 10 years. My first big breakthrough, as far a accuracy is concerned, is when I quit sizing cases and oriented them to the chamber. Each piece of brass is only shot in one chamber and about 3/4 of the neck resized. Each loaded round is checked for concentricity of the case and of the bullet nose.

If the case is centered and the bullet is centered in the bore, you will have a good shot. If the bullet is tipped, or has run-out more than the run-out of the chamber, it will be a flyer away from the group. And this is with linotype and light A2400 loads. The back of the bullet is like chewing gum even with these light loads until the base is at least past the throat.

In the revolver, the energy/time to engrave the bullet on one side is less than time/energy to make the cylinder rotate against inertia.

All my opinion and I'm sticking with it!

Best, Ric

Molly
05-13-2011, 11:00 AM
Hmmmmm.............

Assuming a scenario where the ball is undersized for the rifled bore, and the loading is a low pressure load that produces little "upsetting" in the projectile; ......I am wondering if gas escaping past one side of the ball could apply enough of a "side thrust" to explain the asymmetrical engraving on the ball............... (???)
Kent

Interesting thought that hadn't occurred to me, but ...
First off, the round ball wan't undersize for the bore, and
Second, I find it hard to imagine that the steel wall of the bore wouldn't exert more pressure against the ball than the gas would.

Molly
05-13-2011, 11:08 AM
Hi Ric,


It is very much worse in the rifle with both 311291 and 314299. As you know I have been shooting the 03 Springfield alot the last 10 years. My first big breakthrough, as far a accuracy is concerned, is when I quit sizing cases and oriented them to the chamber. Each piece of brass is only shot in one chamber and about 3/4 of the neck resized. Each loaded round is checked for concentricity of the case and of the bullet nose.

If the case is centered and the bullet is centered in the bore, you will have a good shot. If the bullet is tipped, or has run-out more than the run-out of the chamber, it will be a flyer away from the group. And this is with linotype and light A2400 loads. The back of the bullet is like chewing gum even with these light loads until the base is at least past the throat.

That's been my experience too, but I never saw the reason for it quite so clearly before. I wonder how in the world I got such good accuracy with full house loads of 50g 4831 under a linotype 311291.

In the revolver, the energy/time to engrave the bullet on one side is less than time/energy to make the cylinder rotate against inertia.

I think you've just summed up the problem very nicely! I'm going to have to work on the cylinder rachet a bit and make it rotate fully.

All my opinion and I'm sticking with it!

Best, Ric

RicinYakima
05-13-2011, 05:38 PM
...... find it hard to imagine that the steel wall of the bore wouldn't exert more pressure against the ball than the gas would.

Consider that the only pressure 90 degrees to the bore is gas pressure sliding past the ball. Therefore, the pressure should be exactly equal and at 90 degrees to the force applied to it on the interior of the bore.

I still think the cylinder was not in aligement with bore when the ball left the chamber. The explaination in the original post correct. This passes the duck test: a bird by the pond that looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quackes like a duck is most likely a duck.

Best wishes, Ric