My 9mm mystery

[milprileb]

Lube: LLA or LBT stick lubed bullets: results of accuracy / leading are same
Bullet : Lee 124 RNL (not tumble lube) 9 mm
Sized: .356
Powder: BE
Alloy: 100% wheel wt water quenched.
Using Lee factory carbide taper crimp die

4gr BE: no leading regardless of bullet lube on bullet and 3 inch accuracy
4.1 gr BE: begin leading but better accuracy'
4.2 gr BE: beau coups leading same accuracy of 4.1 gr

Primers: no pressure signs 4gr BE
4.1 begin flattened primers with few with cratering
4.2 flattened and cratering more common.

Recoil: all loads mentioned is a mild recoil.

Pistol: ramped barrel 1911 in 9mm

Some variables: I am going to size .357 and see accuracy picks up at 4.0 gr BE
I am going to retest the .356 sized loads of 4.0 BE using normal taper crimp die as Lee die may be swaging my bullets (per comments on this board and this could be a variable happening).

Lee carbide crimp die: I have it in 9mm and 45 acp. I ran some factory made 230 gr new ammo thru this die and it grabs most of the cases a bit so I suspect if it is doing that on FMJ factory ammo, it could be ruining my cast bullets by swaging.

Before I change alloy or sizing of bullets though, I will change out the Lee carbide crimp die and see if this makes any difference in my ammo accuracy. I sense this may be a issue if I understand the comments fully of you guys who have trekked this path before.

Your thoughts are very much welcomed and I take them for action. I think my BE loads are top end for this powder.

[MT Gianni]

Definatly remove the carbide crimp die and try that. With the 9mm I see bbl leading at the throat to be alloy failure and at the muzzle to be lube failure. Your alloy should be fine. I have no problems going higher than 4.0 gr BE in a CZ75 but currently use AA2.

[HeavyMetal]

I agree: I'd remove the crimp die from the loading cycle and see what happens.

You mention 100% WW metal water dropped. My question is clip on or stick ons?

Stick ons are basicly "pure" lead and dropping them into water nets you nada.


Exactly where is this leading occuring? That will be a clue to the solution.

[milprileb]

I am using clip on wheel weights. Junks of lead along barrel happens when I go
from 4.0 BE to 4.1 and by 4.2 grains this leading gets significant by 20 rds fired and accuracy plummets.

I think variables are the die, and bullet sizing or combo of both. It does not lead at 4.0 BE so
the water quenched WW bullets are maybe not the issue. I am convinced 4.0BE is the limit for this bullet

[fecmech]

Are you using the Lee expander?? I just purchased some Lee .380 dies and noticed how short the expander plug is and wonder if that is not one of the problems with 9MM's tumbling and leading. With the 9's tapered case and a short expander plug the bullet base will be undersized quite a bit. I have never had problems in 3 different 9's with leading or accuracy even with the infamous Lee TL bullet but I've always used the Lyman "M" die and my progressive press has a similar expander. With my Keltec .380 I could care less but I wonder if it might be the source of some 9MM problems.

[Doby45]

You never mentioned what you slugged your barrel at.. I would say size to .357 and only apply enough taper crimp to make the round positively chamber.

[Ben]

Ditto Doby45 ! !

Do those things and charge with 4.0 B'eye and your problems are over.

[zardoz]

My experience so far using Lee 120 grain TC, with regular lube groove.

Water dropped wheel weights for alloy.

Size to 0.357

Lube is home mix of one-third each of paraffin, beeswax, and lithium grease, with a small bit (about a tablespoon in a pound of lube) of lanolin.

This works well in a Ruger P89 for me, using mid-range loads of Power Pistol. Little to no leading.

[RobS]

Figuring out your barrel’s bore dimensions would provide essential info for sizing purposes and pulling a boolit to measure the base of it would provide factual information as to if the boolits are being swaged down or not. Assuming will only direct a person down a road of dismal results when things are not already working well.

[Iron Mike Golf]

+1 on many things. Lee FCD can swage your boolit down and make a poor fit. But you report no leading with 4.0 gr Bullseye. You are using water cooled WW. Are the boolits for the various loads from the same batch of alloy and aged the same length of time?

You pressure signs make me think more than 4.0 of Bullseye is maybe pushing things.

[Swede44mag]

With 4.0 of BE how clean in the powder burn?
Been thinking of trying BE in my SP101 for light 357 Magnums H&G 158 gr BB at 1000fps.
I have used 231 for years but have tried some BE in different calibers.

[JIMinPHX]

9mm barrels seem to vary in diameter more than most other calibers. I'm going to jump on the bandwagon & recommend that you slug your barrel before doing anything else.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been shooting 4 gr of Bullseye under 115 - 124 gr cast bullets, my own and commercial, for 40 years. This includes 356-120-TC, 358242 and 356402. I started out 40 years ago sizing 356402s at .356 for use in a P35, M39, M59 and a Ruger BHK .357/9mm. I always cast of WWs (older, harder ones) and used Javelina lube. I never had a bit of leading with that load, accuracy was always excellent and fuctioning 100% reliable. As I began loading for other 9mms, especially a couple subguns I switched to a .358 sizer and have used it ever since with that load. I now alsmost exclusively use the 356-120-TC bullet as I have a 6 cavity mould. Same load of 4 gr Bullseye, same Javelina lube and all is well. Only difference is i now add 2% tin to the later softer WWs.

Larry Gibson

[475BH]

4.2 gr. Bullseye shouldn't be a max. load w/ that wt. bullet according to the Alliant website load data.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1
(I know the data is for jacketed, but I use it anyway)
How many rounds are you shooting w/ ea. powder charge?
You will most likely see some leading w/ 4.0 gr. if you increase your rounds per charge.
You don't have to water quench w/ these low pressures.

[milprileb]

Well, you guys can sure zero in and take a novice to task !!

Nope, never slugged or measured my bore but will do so pronto.

.357 size dies for 9mm arrived from Midaway here today so this lines up with my smelting today of lead ingots and ww ingots for a reloading blitz.

I plan to keep at 4.0 BE and try 1 pound of lead to 9 pound of WW metal, water quenched and sized to .357.

That is my next step which I take it is aligned with the collective thoughts of experts here on the board as well as canking use of Lee carbide taper crimp die in next battery of tests.

[moptop]

I tired Lee's 124gr TL RN sized to .356" and had lots of leading problems. I now use it & the 158 gr TL RN sized to .358" and my leading problems vanished and accuracy increased. I also tumble lube. It works well for me.

Now I am running these through a Browning Hi-Power which are known to have a slightly larger bore dia. Mine slugged out to a little fatter than .357".

[milprileb]

.358 for the High Power ? I got a HP so I better go slug that bore !

[hutchman]

The biggest thing that helped me while working up a 9mm like load (38 Super) was seating a bullet in a dummy round and then pulling it and checking the diameter. I found that the bullet was being swaged down (from .356 to .355) by my case even though I sized the boolit .001 to .003 over barrel dimensions!

Out of all my factory expanders, the Lyman "M" die came the closest to working but even brass expanded with it was swaging (but .0005 less than the others) the bullet down in size. I ended up getting a custom powder thru expander die (because I run a lockout die in station 3) made that expanded the case .001 under bullet diameter and my problems started to go way.

Just another data point.

Regards,

Brian

[MtGun44]

Step 1: bigger diameter
Step 2: stop water dropping
Step 3: try Unique

Bill