M38 or M44 Russian advice

[Junior1942]

I'm thinking of getting either an M38 or M44 Mosin-Nagent in 7.62x54R for shooting our recent group buy fat 311041.

Grafs has brass @ 100 for $33 delivered.

https://shop.htownimports.com/splashPage.hg has a scout scope w/mount for $45.

Thoughts? Advice? Warnings?

[XBT]

For the price I don’t think you can go wrong with ether one. The M-44 will probably be a bit heaver and some people don’t like the integral bayonet. The triggers on these are typically mushy but can be tinkered to produce a decent pull. With surplus ammo both are loud and will kick like a government mule. Cast boolit loads are pleasant to shoot.

I think the best of the Russian rifles are the M-39’s as re-worked by the Finn’s. They usually have a good two-stage trigger, good sights, and a longer heavier barrel.

The Finn’s took a functional but rough gun and turned it into one that will compare favorably with the best of the bolt-action military rifles from any country.

[Charley]

I've got several carbines, but to tell the truth, I much prefer shooting a rifle, like the M91/30. Some of the C&R dealer are wholesaling the M91/30 for about $90 right now. I'd buy one of those first, and then buy an M-38 or M-44 later.
None of those compare to a Finn M-39, though. They are running about $300 to $400 right now, in my area. SOG has some in stock, too.
The only warning is that Mosins are very addictive.

[Shepherd2]

I have an M38, an M44 and a couple 91/30s. I too prefer shooting the 91/30s. The advantage I see to the M38 over the M44 is that it the M38 lacks a bayonet. As I understand it the M44 was designed to be fired with the bayonet deployed. I've tried it a couple times and my M44 shoots to point of aim with the bayonet out. When it is folded back it shoots a couple inches to the right. If you get either one of the carbines be sure to shoot it at dusk with surplus ammo. You get a 4 foot flare off the muzzle that lights up the sky.

[RU shooter]

I have owned a few of both the M44 and M38 and both are nice little carbines ,as for accuracy I would pick a nice M44 with a good bore ,usually the post war dated(1946-48) have very nice barrels . Shooting the ones I have owned I never had a M38 beat out a M44 shooting surplus ball ammo . And as others stated shooting with the boyo deployed does make a big difference in POI and accuracy because they were designed to be shot that way. Also alot of the M38's have had their barrels counterbored during a arsenal refurb. Not really a big deal but to some it is?Good luck and just go ahead and get both :-D ................................RU

[crazy mark]

Don't forget the 91/59. It is like the M-38 but a cut down 91/30 I also like the finns the best. My Chinese T-53 doesn't care where the bayonet is. Find one with a good bore and try to get the bore below .314. I have a 91/30 that has a .317 bore. Don't shoot surplus bu will shoot the proper cast bullets fine. Mark

[Cayoot]

As I understand it the M44 was designed to be fired with the bayonet deployed. I've tried it a couple times and my M44 shoots to point of aim with the bayonet out. When it is folded back it shoots a couple inches to the right.

Did you ever try shooting it with the Bayonet removed? I'm wondering what affect that would have on boolit POI.

[corvette8n]

I have an M38 and with some surplus ammo you can shoot your deer and cook it at the same time.
Have not tried cast yet, but I have a hundred or so .311/180 bullets waiting to be loaded.

[Ricochet]

The M91/30 was intended to be fired with the bayonet fixed as well. I keep mine that way. If you can't hit the target, you can run down and poke a hole in it.

[mag_01]

:coffee: -----The M44 or M38 Kick like a mule with full power loads and flames not only come out the bore they also come out thru the bolt. I have a M38 but have not tried cast in it---It may be a good cast boolit shooter.---------Mag.

[C1PNR]

Junior1942, a lot of good info here. About all I can add is that I really like my M1938 and 1891/59 Carbines. Both were designed and factory calibrated to be fired without a bayonet.

I do have a M1944, too, and don't have any problem with shooting it in much the same manner as Ricochet suggests. That is, bayonet extended and ready to perforate all targets that refuse to hold still for being shot!

As I'm sure you know, bore diameters will vary considerably. Mine run from .300 x .312 to .302 x .314, and I feel VERY lucky with that short spread.

Edited to fix "Fat Finger Syndrome" on measurements!

[Junior1942]

C1, I'll slug the bore first thing. I'm hoping our GB fat 311041 will work. Anyone tried peep sights?

[Cayoot]

I'm really curious...

Has anyone ever tried shooting the M-44 with the bayonet removed and compareing the POI with the POIs of the bayo on the carbine and extend and folded?

[RU shooter]

Anyone tried peep sights? I have thought about trying to get something to work properly but that split bridge reciever makes thinks difficult , the only factory made set of peep sights I have seen were in Finnland and installed on a M39 which had a recess milled into the back left side of the rec.and were not cheap!Ofcourse the bolt would need modified . There was also an article I remember reading about an American company in the 30's or 40's haveing made a simple peep that replaced or somehow attached to the cocking piece on the bolt.............RU

[krag35]

I built a peep for mine out of a remington rear sight. I filed out the notch to fit an apature, and soldered it in place. Drilled and tapped the cocking peice, and mounted it. Worked fine for what I wanted it for.

[Junior1942]

Krag35, got a picture?

[4060MAY]

from an old Stoegers catalog, 1939

[Junior1942]

Thanks, 4060. Looks like I can get both of those sights for only $14. Ha!

If I can rig a 5D on an SKS maybe I can rig one on an M-38. Might go with a scope, however.

[RU shooter]

from an old Stoegers catalog, 1939The one on the left is the one I saw before, the other looks similar to the Finnish match sight but alot smaller . Heck they had these in 1939!!!!! why cant a company design or make a set now ! there are a heck of alot more Mosin Nagants here in the US now than could have ever been when that add was printed...............RU

[Larry Gibson]

Some years back when the Polish M44s were readily available I mounted (drill and tap 2 holes) on the top of the cocking piece a Williams WGRS-336 receiver sight on a couple of them. The owners seemed to like them. It was easy enough to do and the cost was $35 installed. I've been thinking of doing the same to a Finn M39 I've got though I might use a WGRS-ML and trim each side back to the width of the cocking piece.

Larry Gibson

[C1PNR]

Sorry about the measurement error on my earlier post. I've fixed it now.

My barrels actually go from .300 x .312 to .302 x .314.[smilie=1:

[gregg]

Junior1942
Did buy myself a mod 44 Made in 1944 When I was in Mo.
From a pond shop. Had to use my 03 C&R to buy it. $80
Mo. Don't let them sell to SD.
Thought what the hay I can buy one for $69 +$10 hand pick +shipping from the dealer.
Here I got to hand pick myself. They had one made in 46 look darn near like new.
Thought the 44 had more history. It was a Tula also. 44 had deeper rifleing? But the 44 has a bit of a ruff bore. The 44 shot low and to the left with bayonet folded
and low and right on with the bayonet locked out. Just removed the bayonet tonight. Don't know when I will get back to it. Looking forward in seeing what you
find out about your M38. Go Junior.

[Larry Gibson]

One other thing with most all 7.62x54s except the Finn SAKO M39s is there is no step at the front of the chamber neck leading into the throat. There is only a long forcing cone from the outside of the chamber neck to the rifling. Cast bullets can upset and rivet there a considerable amount causing inaccuracy. I have found that using as large a diameter bullet as possible that still allows chambering minimizes this regardless of the barrel dimensions. I use cast bullets sized .312 or .314" and the outside of the loaded case neck is very slightly smaller (.001" or less than the chamber neck.

Larry Gibson

[gregg]

Good point Larry. I sure did not think of that. I will sure be giving it a try.
Thanks

[piwo]

If you're interested in carbines, another Three Line Rifle variant (Mosin Nagant) would be the Model 91/59. Model 91/30's shortened for security services, these rifles tend to be in VERY good condition, and of carbine length. The aforementioned FIN Model 39 is my favorite and hands down best shooter I own of the Three Line Rifle, though my FIN model 28 might give it some competition, once I get the extractor replaced. It's only fired one shot: a dead on bulls eye at 50 yards.... It's also the rifle the world’s foremost sniper used: Simo Haya, who has more confirmed kills then any other sniper in history. All with a FIN Model 28, with no scope:shock:

I've never cast for it, and that certainly opens up some new opportunities. If you want accuracy, you must slug your barrel ONCE you get your rifle though. These rifles bores measure anywhere from .308 - .313. No use buying a mold till you actually get your rifle, and slug the barrel. If you have a C&R license, these rifles can be purchased, depending upon model, from between $69-$350 dollars. Gun shows still have some nice bargains for them, if you look. Surf here for a description of each rifle, and what to look for as well as some history and articles. http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/

[gregg]

My made in 1944 Mod 44 has a dark bore.
Been cleaning the bore . Black junk been
coming out and can not seem to get to the
bottom of it . But the bore seems to be looking
better all the time. Just a heads up.

[piwo]

Could just be cosmoline, which can be an absolute nightmare to get out in some cases. If you're rifle has cosmoline preserving it, you have a bit of a task, and will need to take the rifle down completely and clean it. Various pieces/springs don't work too well on these if gunked with the sticky stuff... And when it dries, it dries like hard lacquer. But the rifles are a hoot to shoot!

[Tonto]

I once cleaned a M1 carbine by drowning the action in a jar of mineral spirits and bubbling air through it with an aquarium pump and tubing, a day of that and the cosmoline was gone, period

[Bullshop]

CDNN sells the scout base for the M44 for 12.99, the last I saw a month ago. Now that it is 07 that might be different.
Daniel/Bs Jr.

[Ricochet]

If you're checking bore dimensions, take multiple readings. I have an M91/30 that slugs .312" across one pair of grooves, and .313" across the other. I size my checked boolits to .314".

[handyrandyrc]

I really bubba'ed mine. But I am having a riot with it. Works awesome with some slugs XBT cast for me. I removed the rear sight and got a nifty scope mount from Makarov.com. My Mosin Scouter, started out as a 69-dollar 91/30:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/scout-1.jpg

Kept the straight bolt handle. I actually LIKE mine that way!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/scout-2.jpg

Close up of the Makarov.com scope mount.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/scout-3.jpg

I cut the barrel to 19" and I crowned it myself.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/scout-4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/scout-5.jpg

And here is a target of what I can do at 200 yards with it. 180 grain Sierra soft points... I haven't yet slung lead THAT far...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/scout-200.jpg
I do have to say, however, that it's not pleasant to shoot a full-power load all the time. I MUCH prefer "the load" cast-lead rounds.

[Cayoot]

That looks great! What did you use to crown that bbl?:drinks:

[handyrandyrc]

Sorry about that, fellas, I didn't know there was a size limit on the photos. They fit well on my screen, but I'm running 1280x1024 resolution. The photos were 1024x768.

Thanks to 45nut for resizing and re-hosting the pictures at 800x600. This is off topic, but is 800x600 a good size for everyone to view? Or is that too big for some?

[handyrandyrc]

That looks great! What did you use to crown that bbl?:drinks:

My tool looks exactly like the one featured on THIS (http://riflestocks.tripod.com/targetcrown.html) page. I've used that tool on ALL of my surplus rifles, and each has had better accuracy by a measurable amount afterwards.

[Junior1942]

Sorry about that, fellas, I didn't know there was a size limit on the photos. They fit well on my screen, but I'm running 1280x1024 resolution. The photos were 1024x768.

Thanks to 45nut for resizing and re-hosting the pictures at 800x600. This is off topic, but is 800x600 a good size for everyone to view? Or is that too big for some?An 800 width is ok, but it's still a little large for us guys with laptops. Around 700 to 750 is much better. Thanks!!!!