Brass problems with the .475.

[44man]

I had some funny shots the other day shooting at a beer can at 200 yards for fun. Naw, could not see for junk either but I had a few wide shots on the paper behind the can. The rest were around 4" all around the can.
I loaded them this time with my seating pressure arm and I found one so tight I had to lean on the handle. Then one so loose it took almost nothing to seat plus a few that were just a shade tighter. All the rest were the same with good tension.
Looks like I need to buy brass!
I sorted and will use the bad ones to foul the barrel since I finally cleaned it, then toss the cases in the scrap box.
I don't know why one was so tight. I stopped and measured the boolit before forcing it the rest of the way and it was .476". The mouth was flared so I didn't miss the expander.

[tek4260]

How may loads have they seen?

[44man]

How may loads have they seen?
No idea, I am cheap! [smilie=w: Maybe 20.
I am still shooting .44 brass with 40.

[tek4260]

Glad to see I am not the only one who doesn't follow the rules and reserve brass for light loads after 1 or 2 loadings at full throttle.

And what the hell is a light load good for? The max load will do everything and more :)

[subsonic]

By "seating pressure arm", do you mean a mechanical device, or you payed attention?

Do you think that you could have some oversize boolits from a mould that wasn't closed all the way? (before you run out for fresh brass....) I noticed that you said you stopped to measure @ .476", but could it have been a problem with the base or gas check?

[44man]

By "seating pressure arm", do you mean a mechanical device, or you payed attention?

Do you think that you could have some oversize boolits from a mould that wasn't closed all the way? (before you run out for fresh brass....) I noticed that you said you stopped to measure @ .476", but could it have been a problem with the base or gas check?
Boolit was good, a PB.
I have a mechanical device on my press handles that registers the seating pressure.

[BABore]

Torch anneal them then size and expand them a few times. You'll get the consistency back to where it was.

[Whitworth]

Torch anneal them then size and expand them a few times. You'll get the consistency back to where it was.

Or stop being so cheap and buy some brass......:kidding:

[44man]

Or stop being so cheap and buy some brass......:kidding:
I can steal your brass! [smilie=l:

[cottonstalk]

[smilie=p: That was a good one Jim

[white eagle]

we could take up collection :Bright idea::goodpost:

[Frank]

BABore:
Torch anneal them then size and expand them a few times. You'll get the consistency back to where it was.
Great idea. But how good is the tension after annealing? I need a good grip to hold the boolit.

[runfiverun]

work hardened brass loses it's ability to expand and be resized.
annealing returns it to it's softer state, the sizing a couple of times gets it back so it's all closer to the same.

[freedom475]

I think you are probly right...It is probly junk and not worth messing with... why don't you box it up and send it to me.

I will take the time and discard it (free of charge) for your.:drinks::mrgreen:

[subsonic]

Boolit was good, a PB.
I have a mechanical device on my press handles that registers the seating pressure.

Tell me more about this device. Homemade? Store bought? More pics?

[44man]

Tell me more about this device. Homemade? Store bought? More pics?
I took another picture for you. I use a 1/8" spring steel rod, piano wire from a hobby shop that is used for landing gears. I drill a hole through the handle and put a graduated rod through it. There is a rubber washer on the rod. It is hooked to the main spring rod with a wire link so it slides.
I just start a boolit with the press handle and then seat with the wire rod. The washer will move out as the rod bends and will stay at the graduation for the pressure used. That load goes in a pile marked for where the rubber washer stopped. I pull the washer back for the next load. Do not try to crimp at the same time.
I worked this out long ago when I found case tension had to be even for IHMSA and long range. Babore has done better machine work with it. I used to just clamp the rod to the handle with a hose clamp. That works fine too.
Other then some electronic strain gauge setup, this is very accurate and has proven to mean as much as a 10" POI change at 50 meters between loose and tight loads.
Guys just do not understand how the brass will ruin accuracy and pump out thousands of rounds on a progressive with no feel between loads. Even the wrong dies can remove all accuracy.

[44man]

Annealing does not work with a revolver. Too soft will let boolits pull under recoil and there is no way to get all brass the same by sizing and expanding. I tried it and seating pressures vary much more.
New, unfired brass is the worst for groups too.
You can sort new brass by where the POI is, keep it separate, like BR shooters do. 5 pieces of brass that put all boolits in one hole is better then 100 that spray the target.

[Whitworth]

[smilie=p: That was a good one Jim

They start stealing my .475 brass, then my .475.....oh, that seems to already have happened! :bigsmyl2:

[subsonic]

44man,

Can you take a close up pic of where the graduated rod is connected to the spring steel and press handle? I'm gonna make one!

[44man]

44man,

Can you take a close up pic of where the graduated rod is connected to the spring steel and press handle? I'm gonna make one!
Sure. It really is very simple. You can see where the bending rod will pull the pin out of the hole and move the rubber washer.

[44man]

Back in the early 80's when I started shooting IHMSA, I was not doing good with my .44 SBH. I felt different seating pressures when using Hornady bullets. The light bulb went off! I tried to measure case expansion and had special BR dies made for the .44 with collars. I could never tell which collar to use with which case but accuracy did increase. The dies are a REAL pain to use as I had them made to work in my RCBS press.
More sitting and thinking came up with the seating pressure tool since there is no way to measure actual pull, only the force to seat.
I found that Hornady New Dimension dies come as close as you can get to perfect sizing and expansion. RCBS and others were a big bust.
Then came the problems with cast after I quit IHMSA and went totally to cast. It is no joke and I get too many sub 1" groups at 100 yards to ignore. All work I share with tons of dispute, yet nobody shows results with the soft boolits, Lyman "M" dies, etc.
Am I a genius? No, I just do the work and am a very poor genius with not a dime for my work. Take it or leave it.
Read posts and just see how many have gone to my thinking and repeat me.

[Frank]

44man,
When your Hornady brass is normal, how many categories do you section off and what percentage of the batch does each category have? Is it typically an even distribution from light to medium to heavy? Or is it parabolic? Fewer of the heavier and lighter ones, with the most in the middle? :coffee:

[44man]

44man,
When your Hornady brass is normal, how many categories do you section off and what percentage of the batch does each category have? Is it typically an even distribution from light to medium to heavy? Or is it parabolic? Fewer of the heavier and lighter ones, with the most in the middle? :coffee:
Usually with good brass there will be a bunch in one pile within one graduation. At times I have had 6 piles or more with some cases so far out of the norm it is a wonder they shoot at all. It is best to put those in a separate box and after shooting them, use for the close range plinking brass.
This is where you can actually see what happens. Take the lightest fitting loads and also the tightest from each end of the piles. Shoot a group with one pile and then one with the other. You will find both will group good but pay attention to the POI of each group. It will make a believer out of you and will show what happens if you mix them.
This is one reason many do not believe my groups. The thought is that the brass means nothing so just fill it up and shoot. Run thousands through a progressive as fast as they can be made.
I am different, not a 25 yard pie plate shooter! A pie plate is too large at 200 meters! :mrgreen: Some do not understand that and the terms I hate most is "shoots good" or "doesn't lead my barrel."
I have tried for years to explain the brass case you have in your hand is the heart and soul of accuracy.
It is also why there is such a discussion about barrel lengths, twist rates, velocities, etc. It is the definition of accuracy between all shooters that is different. My definition is to out shoot a rifle with a revolver. My goal is a one hole, 5 shot group at 100 yards and I have been close, very close.
I notice Taffin has reduced his testing to 20 yards! As I get older, vision is my problem but I refuse to shorten distances. I will never, ever post 20 yard groups. :coffee:
That is as funny as a guy saying he shoots a pure lead boolit from a .44 at 1500 fps with accuracy and no leading! OH, I forgot, add tin! :bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

44man:
Usually with good brass there will be a bunch in one pile within one graduation. At times I have had 6 piles or more with some cases so far out of the norm it is a wonder they shoot at all. It is best to put those in a separate box and after shooting them, use for the close range plinking brass.
This is where you can actually see what happens.
I went by feel in the handle. I seated 22 of them. Half were heavy, less than half was medium and a few were like butter. They are in their separate groups. Last time out at 50 yds 5-shots 4 were touching, then one way out and low. Now it's going to be good again.

[Frank]

44man:
I am different, not a 25 yard pie plate shooter! A pie plate is too large at 200 meters! Some do not understand that and the terms I hate most is "shoots good" or "doesn't lead my barrel."
Not all boolits are up to the task, even if you do your case work. But for hunting how good does it have to be? Perhaps if one can only get 1.5" at 50 yds then he can practice and still have hunting accuracy at 100 yds. Less time worrying about reloads and more time practicing shooting. Just a thought. [smilie=p:

[44man]

44man:
Not all boolits are up to the task, even if you do your case work. But for hunting how good does it have to be? Perhaps if one can only get 1.5" at 50 yds then he can practice and still have hunting accuracy at 100 yds. Less time worrying about reloads and more time practicing shooting. Just a thought. [smilie=p:
That would be OK for hunting, it is true you don't need the best accuracy.
All practice and hunting I do is off hand so the more accurate the gun is, the better.
It is no harder to load accurate loads then to load for noise! Just need to pay more attention.
You can sort when you shoot. Take that brass out of the gun that made the flier and set it aside, soon you will have a few that go to the same place and some more that go someplace else. Just load them separate and shoot them separate.
Some can be far out so you need a different sight setting if shooting long range. Better to use them just for fun shooting up closer.
I loaded 50 new .44 cases without measuring and shot them all at 50 yards. I had at least 7 different POI's. To sort right you should use a spot for each shot but that takes 50 spots! :veryconfu

[subsonic]

Ever tried neck turning? Sorting by neck thickness? Or are there more variables that can't be measured directly - only by shooting/resulting seating pressure (such as brass hardness)?

[44man]

Ever tried neck turning? Sorting by neck thickness? Or are there more variables that can't be measured directly - only by shooting/resulting seating pressure (such as brass hardness)?
Neck turning can ruin tension, there is not much brass there to even skim to even it out. That will make a step on the brass too and it can fail there. Reaming is no better solution, save it for bottle necks.
Annealing is too tricky, if soft, all boolits will pull and if you work harden them first, you still will not make them even.
The problem still comes down to grain structure. Straight wall brass is not final annealed when finished because it would be too soft.
Brand new brass has proven to even up quite a bit by just shooting it and groups will tighten after 3 to 4 reloads but there are always a few of those funny ones.
I never like WW brass, too many problems. Fed used to be good but I use a lot of Rem brass for the .44. I am going to try Starline for it when I buy new brass. :holysheep Did I say BUY?

[Frank]

subsonic:
Ever tried neck turning? Sorting by neck thickness? Or are there more variables that can't be measured directly - only by shooting/resulting seating pressure (such as brass hardness)?
Sorting by weight and wall thicknesses is a waste of time. It doesn't take into consideration grain structure.

[44man]

The revolver is the critical bugger for brass being even.
Stuff you can do in say, a 1911 or a single shot just will not work right.
But nothing says loading better rounds for other guns is useless.
It would be interesting to see if accuracy improves in a .45 ACP but I don't have one. How about someone with TC for a revolver cartridge?
Food for thought anyway.

[Frank]

44man:
But nothing says loading better rounds for other guns is useless.

I have a few .475 cases that weighs 149.5 grns. They have a wall thickness of .014. The rest of the brass weighs 145 grns and .013. You'd think the heavy ones would be stiff to seat. Wrong. One was good. The other was like butter. So checking the weights and wall thicknesses was useless. The better method is your tool.

[44man]

When you think of all the machinery used to punch and form brass it is a wonder they come out so good.
Brass can vary from roll to roll and a die with a little wear can toss things off.
I gave up WW brass long ago because some new brass had rims different diameters and thicknesses. Many would not go in the gun. I spent a lot of time with a file, not having a lathe back then. It was .375 W brass, not made by anyone else then.
They were like Lyman, re-sharpening cherries over and over, making smaller and smaller molds. They list a mold at .457" but a new one might be .460". When they get to .457" they toss the cherry.
Might be why chambers and throats are all different, sharpen the reamer too many times.
Tools are VERY expensive!

[Frank]

I've tried Starline 475 brass and couldn't get it to group. Isn't that weird? I've measured case volumes, neck thicknesses and weights. The volume is less than Hornady brass. Maybe it'll shoot if I keep reducing the load. But why bother, if my Hornday brass keeps a working.

On another point, do you think it's possible for some brass to get softer with age? My brass has been shot over and over and over again. Why would there still be a few cases that have low resistance with seating? Maybe the grain structure on those is making them looser. Who knows. Funny what brass can do.

[44man]

It will get stiffer but I think there is an end to that. I have seen brass get brittle with age and necks cracked in the ammo box. These were formed and annealed before loading yet they cracked just sitting.
Remember that tension does not need to be extremely high, what counts is that all pieces have the same tension as close as you can get it.
This is why I like the Hornady expander. It only expands about 3/8" deep leaving the boolit to enter tighter, unexpanded brass.
My .44 BR dies can be changed by using a smaller size collar but I have not found a way to tell which brass would need that.
All you can do is to keep the looser fitting ones separate from the ones that feel good. Remove the real tight ones too.
I never remember having a .44 case split but I have had Hornady .475 brass split a few cases.
I have not lost a .45 Colt case yet.
Through it all, you still need enough tension to hold a boolit against initial primer pressure and long enough for a good burn to initiate.
Not all brass is the exact same thing from every maker nor is the treatment it gets when finished.
I tried to load some once fired A-merc 45-70 brass for a friend and every case split in the size die. REAL JUNK! :roll:

[subsonic]

Thinking about case neck tension and primers knocking things loose...

Could a person make ammunition without powder, fire it, and see if the boolit stayed in the case to find out which primer and case neck tension resulted in things "staying put" until the powder got going?

Having fired a couple of squib loads (who didn't when they first started loading...?) I suspect most combinations will end up with the boolit leaving the case.

[subsonic]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/neck-tension-bullet-seating-and-the-time-factor/

Don't know if the link above is a factor or not in this case (no pun), but was googling and found it. I have noticed that when I load ammo for my .308 a day before I shoot it, it shoots better than ammo that has been sitting. Lots of theories from time to harden (like boolits) to galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals to the soot in the case necks corroding things.

[Frank]

subsonic:
Could a person make ammunition without powder, fire it, and see if the boolit stayed in the case to find out which primer and case neck tension resulted in things "staying put" until the powder got going?

Having fired a couple of squib loads (who didn't when they first started loading...?) I suspect most combinations will end up with the boolit leaving the case.
Sure. You just have to tap it out. It's kind of tricky with a revolver because if it ends up at the gap you'll have to tap it back into the case to get the cylinder off. Doing that with a squib load can reignite it and shoot the mandrel right through you. So be safe.

[44man]

Thinking about case neck tension and primers knocking things loose...

Could a person make ammunition without powder, fire it, and see if the boolit stayed in the case to find out which primer and case neck tension resulted in things "staying put" until the powder got going?

Having fired a couple of squib loads (who didn't when they first started loading...?) I suspect most combinations will end up with the boolit leaving the case.
Not much will "stay put" when a primer goes off, there is always movement. The idea is to limit movement and try and have every boolit move the same amount as the powder gets going.
To have one boolit move more then another or another that does not move is where accuracy suffers. All you are doing is changing case capacity with every shot.
This is why even a batch of looser fitting boolits will still group if they are all the same tension. The only consideration is to have enough tension for slow powder like 296 to get a good start. Slight movement does not hurt as long as every boolit moves the same amount.
The medium with a slow powder is to have a hard enough boolit and a little tighter fit, kind of even things out. You have to avoid the brass sizing the boolit.
Experiments with the .44 for years has shown dies that over expand like RCBS with the large, long expanders will make poor loads. They were made for soft boolits and is why I use a tighter fit and a harder boolit.
Then I found a mag primer in the .44 was just too much force for the little case and tripled groups every time. I only go to a mag primer with larger cases.
Then working with a .45 ACP revolver has shown even a standard LP primer has too much force. By going to a SP primer I cut groups by more then half.
I found a SR mag primer would not fire starting loads of 296 in the .454, only max loads. By going to a LP mag primer, any load could be worked.
Next to the brass, the spark plug you choose is the next most important thing.
It is a balance between primer pressure, primer heat, case tension, boolit weight, boolit hardness, case size, powder, lube and boolit fit.
Your job is to put all of this together! :veryconfu
Going to faster powders will ease off some of these things but as you move the peak pressure closer to the brass, even if you consider it a low pressure load, you will do more slumping and damage to softer boolits. My experiments have shown a great increase in fast powder accuracy by making the boolit harder and tougher.
I will never quit working and experimenting, I am nowhere near done after 55 years of testing.
It is a very contentious subject with a lot of resistance to change.
By applying everything correctly to a brand new revolver and caliber (.500 JRH, BFR.) allowed me to shoot this 50 yard group at the very first range session.

[felix]

Excellent post, Jim! ... felix

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=44man;1270794]
Not all brass is the exact same thing from every maker nor is the treatment it gets when finished.

I totally agree with you.
People should pay more attention to their brass.
I always buy the same brand of brass. When I shot IHMSA, I used only RP brass and weighed it and checked for neck tension, neck thickness etc etc.
When I had enough separated and prepped to shoot a match, I was very careful to not get it mixed with other brass. I put them back into the same box after shooting and kept the brass separate during the cleaning and reloading processes.
I still do the same with my 45 Long Colt and 45-70 brass. I buy a big lot then sort and prep it very carefully and sort again after I fire it a couple of times. I end up with one 50 round box that I shoot for show and the rest of the boxes I plink with, and/or let others shoot.
When I see people tossing all of their empties into one bag, I know they are not there to shoot small groups.
There are not many things I enjoy more than out shooting people with their rifles, with my pistols.

[44man]

[QUOTE=44man;1270794]
Not all brass is the exact same thing from every maker nor is the treatment it gets when finished.

I totally agree with you.
People should pay more attention to their brass.
I always buy the same brand of brass. When I shot IHMSA, I used only RP brass and weighed it and checked for neck tension, neck thickness etc etc.
When I had enough separated and prepped to shoot a match, I was very careful to not get it mixed with other brass. I put them back into the same box after shooting and kept the brass separate during the cleaning and reloading processes.
I still do the same with my 45 Long Colt and 45-70 brass. I buy a big lot then sort and prep it very carefully and sort again after I fire it a couple of times. I end up with one 50 round box that I shoot for show and the rest of the boxes I plink with, and/or let others shoot.
When I see people tossing all of their empties into one bag, I know they are not there to shoot small groups.
There are not many things I enjoy more than out shooting people with their rifles, with my pistols.
Totally perfect! :-D
My friends and I have driven more rifle shooters off the range, they pack it up and go home. I have offered to let them shoot my guns but never had a single taker.
Tell us how many you sent home? :bigsmyl2:
Felix, thank you! :grin:

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=Longwood;1271327]
Totally perfect! :-D
My friends and I have driven more rifle shooters off the range, they pack it up and go home. I have offered to let them shoot my guns but never had a single taker.
Tell us how many you sent home? :bigsmyl2:
Felix, thank you! :grin:

I have had three Dan Wesson revolvers, one 44 a 357 and a 22, that all shot very well indeed. I also have owned a Python and a custom Model 15, S/W, 38 special pin gun that had a Douglas barrel and shot better than the Python.
I used to own seven different 22 rimfire auto pistols all of which were the high dollar match models of several different brands. My S/W 41 with the 5 1/2" barrel was, hands down, my favorite.
I have owned three bolt action Remington pistols, one of which had a 1-1/2 oz trigger job on it.
At one time I owned seven different barrels for my Thompson Contender.

I have embarrassed the heck out of more than my share of rifle shooters. I have convinced more than a few that they can shoot pistols just as well or better than rifles.
Unfortunately, age has caught up with me and my eyes don't see so good so I shoot rifles now.
Still tons of fun!

[Frank]

Longwood:
When I shot IHMSA, I used only RP brass and weighed it and checked for neck tension, neck thickness etc etc.
When I had enough separated and prepped to shoot a match, I was very careful to not get it mixed with other brass. I put them back into the same box after shooting and kept the brass separate during the cleaning and reloading processes.

I understand now the importance of seating pressure on POI, but what about measuring neck thicknesses and weighing cases? What exactly does that do?

[Longwood]

Longwood:
I understand now the importance of seating pressure on POI, but what about measuring neck thicknesses and weighing cases? What exactly does that do?
Weighing supposedly means they are closer to having the same capacity. CC'ing is another way to do it more accurately but I never did it.

Neck turning is about seating tension and getting it close to the same. I always pre-prepped, including neck turning if necessary, then fire-formed my new brass before final sorting for match stuff.

There are other things to watch also like primer hole size for instance.

I am getting back into accurate shooting and even though I will only be shooting straight case stuff, I will be using one of the seating pressure arms that 44man was nice enough to share with us.
Thank Dude!

[44man]

Longwood:
I understand now the importance of seating pressure on POI, but what about measuring neck thicknesses and weighing cases? What exactly does that do?
EVERY thing has a little affect. But boolit movement in a revolver just wipes out all case preparation. To weigh the cases to 1/10 gr and have boolits change case capacity with every shot means a waste of time.
Even boolit pull from recoil on other rounds in the cylinder will ruin groups.
Case preparation works if everything else is working exactly right but by itself, it means little.
It is like asking me to weigh boolits! :bigsmyl2: Are you kidding? :veryconfu

[Longwood]

EVERY thing has a little affect. But boolit movement in a revolver just wipes out all case preparation. To weigh the cases to 1/10 gr and have boolits change case capacity with every shot means a waste of time.
Even boolit pull from recoil on other rounds in the cylinder will ruin groups.
Case preparation works if everything else is working exactly right but by itself, it means little.
It is like asking me to weigh boolits! :bigsmyl2: Are you kidding? :veryconfu

All of the work and fine details got to me finally and I gave up shooting competition.
One "Ooops" or one "Close" and "You loose!".
When I shot Silhouette, in order to win a meet, you had to get a near perfect score in every class then at least three of the chicken eggs (6" circle) at 220 Yards (200 Meters).
I shot four different calibers in three different pistols. Yeah,,, I weighed my bullets and one heck of a lot more. Got to be too much.:groner:
Now it is just one rifle in one caliber,,,, 45-70.

[pmer]

I had some funny shots the other day shooting at a beer can at 200 yards for fun. Naw, could not see for junk either but I had a few wide shots on the paper behind the can. The rest were around 4" all around the can.
I loaded them this time with my seating pressure arm and I found one so tight I had to lean on the handle. Then one so loose it took almost nothing to seat plus a few that were just a shade tighter. All the rest were the same with good tension.
Looks like I need to buy brass!
I sorted and will use the bad ones to foul the barrel since I finally cleaned it, then toss the cases in the scrap box.
I don't know why one was so tight. I stopped and measured the boolit before forcing it the rest of the way and it was .476". The mouth was flared so I didn't miss the expander.

This might be silly but have you had the dies apart for a good cleaning to make sure there is no yuk and crud in them?

[44man]

All of the work and fine details got to me finally and I gave up shooting competition.
One "Ooops" or one "Close" and "You loose!".
When I shot Silhouette, in order to win a meet, you had to get a near perfect score in every class then at least three of the chicken eggs (6" circle) at 220 Yards (200 Meters).
I shot four different calibers in three different pistols. Yeah,,, I weighed my bullets and one heck of a lot more. Got to be too much.:groner:
Now it is just one rifle in one caliber,,,, 45-70.
It was fun though, wasn't it?
If you want to have a good time with the 45-70, get a BFR revolver with a 10" barrel. I assure you it will do better then the rifle.
IHMSA changed my thinking big time and even shooting a revolver to 500 meters was doable with accuracy that can make a lot of rifles look sick.
But I never did all the work you did, never weighed bullets, boolits or brass. Case tension was enough to win Ohio state with 79 out of 80 using my SBH. My fault for the last ram miss. Primer choice was important. I shot tons of 40's with all guns.
It is just not that much work but 7 yard shooters will never understand the same as those that think just having no lead in the bore is all that counts.
What most do not understand is that just shooting 40 out of 40 never won a match. You had to hit more 50 meter chickens at 200 meters to win. The object was to just get rid of the 40 targets first so the shoot off targets could be shot and if you missed one of the 40, it is over.
Every revolver shooter should shoot IHMSA. It will humble all the experts real quick. Many experts here would be doing good with 10 out of 40.
I gave up IHMSA because of travel and other expenses.

[subsonic]

Just need a "rubber washer" or similar item to "record" the measurement and to mark some "calibration" on the link pin, but otherwise it's done.

Hopefully I will get an opportunity to load and shoot some .357s in the next week or two.:Fire:

I'm curious to see what happens with my .308 "sniper" rifle.

[44man]

Just need a "rubber washer" or similar item to "record" the measurement and to mark some "calibration" on the link pin, but otherwise it's done.

Hopefully I will get an opportunity to load and shoot some .357s in the next week or two.:Fire:

I'm curious to see what happens with my .308 "sniper" rifle.
That looks real good. I don't know the affect with a rifle. I don't think it is as important but I await your testing.
Do enough, not just one or two groups and lets see what happens.