310 Tool information delay

[ohland]

Don't that beat all. Spent a few hours (well, maybe eight) scouring for die illustrations on the net, with Internet Archive, Google Books, LASC, yada, yada, yada... Got a page with a crude attempt at various parts sources, instruction, dimensions. Now my normal web hoster is off-line.

Now I understand small, medium, large, and special die sizes. Large and small handle sizes. Top punch to cast bullet seaters. Adapter dies. Adjustable extractor. Steel vs alloy. Bullet Sizer. Differences between 5 and 4 die sets.

Inshallah, I want to create a table, with the various parts, so you can search by whatever you want. Interesting how one can mix n match various stems, adapter dies, expanding chambers, and seating screws to make something work.

But there are some gaps in the Ideal table... some cases came out after the chart was made, but the die sets prove they exist.

[smilie=b:

[Green Frog]

I think I am coming in on the middle of a conversation here, but as to your comment about gaps in the tables... yep, they are there! Several of us have been working on a "complete" table, but AFAIK, no such animal exists. Apparently Ideal saved some numbers for later use, or used them for obscure dies that never made it to any of the regular lists because of limited numbers made, or maybe they just skipped some accidentally. Whatever the reason, there seem to be a significant number of gaps that are unlikely ever to be filled.

As to matching the bullet seating stems to various loadings, you may have some luck using tables of lubrisizer top punch numbers, but it seems there are a variety of stem thread sizes to deal with. My luck there has been very hit-or-miss.

I'll be anxious to see whether you come up with anything to add to the information already available on this and other forum discussions. As you observe, it does seem to "beat all!"

Froggie

[ohland]

What has worked for me in the past is to put stuff up on a page with a email link to me, and ask for folks to review and submit their nuggets of wisdom.

Sorta like a Wiki on the cheap. I'd like to detail the dimensions of various parts, because there is quite a few things IMHO that a decent machinist could do. Then again, there are some parts where it is much cheaper to buy.

For instance, the priming chamber... Could a modern priming shaft with a retractable primer cup be cobbled together? The discontinued RCBS Priming Tool had such a thing.

Like to identify the Special size die thread, like the .348 Win, because they aren't 5/8x30.

I have the files read to be uploaded... Could Cast Boolits do it?

:coffee:

[scrapcan]

Do a search here on the dies sizes or maybe go to the Antique relaoding tool collectors Association Forum, join, and post a thread on the topic. Most of the folks are here also, but a few are not. Those that are not will definitely be of help to you.

Froggie is one of the knowledgeable ones, glad he was able to chime in already. Like him, I have scoured for info and have amassed a bit of stuff, but there are holes.

One of the holes that comes up is when you get redhead dies in the mix. They look like ideal/lyman small dies and have the same thread, but they have some definite differences. They are not ideal/lyman dies, I have seen some very knwowledgeable ideal/lyman collectors need help on identifying them.

[scrapcan]

Also forgot to mention that there are vast variances in lock ring style, stem design, knurling, etc...

It becomes a core to piece together full sets of period correct die sets. Think about this long and hard before you piece and part sets for sale. A collector will know the difference and if they pay a premium and get pieces and parts, your name becomes MUD pretty quickly.

[ohland]

I've gone to the Collector's site, but it appeared to me to be oriented to selling. If you wanted to be allowed in, you needed a minimum of three buys.

Sent a note to Castpics, asking if they wouldn't host my nascent 310 page. Though Cast Boolits is very saavy, I fault it for not being stable. Too much information is scattered all over, or is in sticky notes. Message titles may not even mention the 310, you have to scour all the replies...

Not that I know everything, but having a page that is monitored for submissions and corrections is the way to go. Didn't even know of the Redhead dies until today.

My pages have always been free, no JavaScript, cookie counting, click counting... Nothing to sell, nothing to prove. Always said that metal does not lie, if you machine it wrong, you have rework or expensive scrap. Let us worship the creator through dutiful reporting of truth...

:coffee:

[ohland]

Blast. 404kb.

If you want it, PM your email or however its done. If I had a site, it'd be up...

[ohland]

Try this again...

[Green Frog]

For the basic numbers of various older calibers, go to the bottom of this page and click on Castpics. Then go through the references section and you will find a chart set up by the reverse mode from yours... number sequence of the dies is given. You can look up a #28, for instance, and know what caliber it is used for. You will note that there are several calibers there that are not on your list.

Regards,
Froggie

PS If you would like an easier to work with copy of that chart electronically, just drop me a PM. I think most if not all of that chart came from my old chart made for the American Single Shot Rifle Association's Journal several years ago. GF

[scrapcan]

Froggie,

I thought the same thing after I saw your original chart.

Ohland,

I agree if there are a bunch of folks working on similar topics, it would be nice if it would be brought to one spot. The specific topic at hand is exactly why the ARTCA was chartered.

The 310 shop is in the business of selling, but he is also a wonderful resource for the rest of us. And he may have a die set or pieces that you are willing to buy instead of spend the rest of your life scrounging to put together a set that does not match (not an issue if they are only to use, I have lots of sets like that)

[ohland]

For the basic numbers of various older calibers, go to the bottom of this page and click on Castpics. Then go through the references section and you will find a chart set up by the reverse mode from yours... number sequence of the dies is given. You can look up a #28, for instance, and know what caliber it is used for. You will note that there are several calibers there that are not on your list.

Regards,
Froggie

PS If you would like an easier to work with copy of that chart electronically, just drop me a PM. I think most if not all of that chart came from my old chart made for the American Single Shot Rifle Association's Journal several years ago. GF

I've been through castpics and snagged some interesting stuff. At a later point, I'd like to link the 310 cast bullet seater to the top punch, so someone could look up the caliber, go over to the cast bullet seater, click on it, and be linked to the molds that that seating stem is used with.

I saw some mention of the Ezy-Loader, which was the last gasp for the 5/8x30 dies (er, maybe 34/64x30). Might be seeing the 310 links n lies on Castpics. Should have added my email to it so people could email me. Yes, I do have fairly decent spam filters.

Question, what are the die lengths for short, medium, and large? What is the thread for the special die? (348 Win is a special).

:popcorn:

[Green Frog]

I've been through castpics and snagged some interesting stuff. At a later point, I'd like to link the 310 cast bullet seater to the top punch, so someone could look up the caliber, go over to the cast bullet seater, click on it, and be linked to the molds that that seating stem is used with.
This may be more trouble than it is worth, but if you use the top punch numbers and bullet seater numbers together you should be OK. The old "Quick Chart" found in each of the older Ideal Handbooks will give you specific seating die plug numbers. You probably will have to enter all of that info by hand, hence my trouble comment. :coffeecom

I saw some mention of the Ezy-Loader, which was the last gasp for the 5/8x30 dies (er, maybe 34/64x30). Might be seeing the 310 links n lies on Castpics. Should have added my email to it so people could email me. Yes, I do have fairly decent spam filters.
IIRC, the TruLine Jr press lasted long after the EZY-Loader. Jeremy or Ken or one of the other ARTCA folks can be more help on that. The dies are going to be pretty much the same except for special full length sizers, but there are special J-type shell holders for the EZY-Loader to allow the oddball priming mechanism to function.

Question, what are the die lengths for short, medium, and large? What is the thread for the special die? (348 Win is a special).
No help here. I just try and fit when starting new, or use what comes in a known complete set. Again, some of the ARTCA group will probably be of more assistance. :brokenima

:popcorn:
Comments from Froggie! :mrgreen:

[ohland]

http://webpages.charter.net/ohland/Lyman_310_Tool.html

I hate setting up FTP when the host won't tell you the settings in a list.

This is my cramped view of reality, and as I get 310 stuff in, I'll scan or take photos, dimension and ponder.

Pontification, correction, additions welcome. Yes, the font is horrid.


:drinks:

[scrapcan]

Froggie is correct the tru line jr persisted until 1970 when it was dropped. There are three versions fo the truline Jr that we know of. I currently have all three in my hands for a display at the annual meetign of the ARTCA in Denver this coming weekend.

The variatiosn included and early what we believe is a prototype, the straight link, and the compound linkage. I also have 3 variations of the read head press, and two types of the australian super simplex press. All of these are similar but with major differences.

There are a couple of good articles by Floodgate and Pressman in past ARTCA newsletters on the small presses. Currently Part I and II have been published and cover all three in some capacity, but focus on the Redhead and the Truline jr.

As a note on history the RedHead was first by Naramore, then the Truline Jr straight link, the simplex and compund link Truline are of similar vintage. Redhead uses same size dies as the truline Jr. The redhead dies are the first to size ( some full size resiing for pistol and small rifle cartridges) and derpime in one step, then later followed by the 310 cmr or FL series of dies. The simplex/super simplex small press uses 5/8x26 (British standrad brass) thread form. They are not interchangeable with the redhead or truline Jr. All three presses use different shellholders and are not interchangeable.

here is a bit of info on the special size dies from correspondence with those who know what they are relaying to the rest of us. I will say that I am not one of those who knows the vast amount of info on these tools. Froggie is one of those few folks though.

George:

The .25-25 & 21tool takes the #8 die for seating the .25-21and the #9 for the .25-25. I have a similar one with a single-adjustable die marked "9". The "20" indicates that the cavity is cut for the #25720 bullet for the .25-20 Single-Shot; but it would serve for all three calibers. These "small thread" dies appear to vary a bit in diameter and do not always interchange freely.

Your "44" marked tool with the #77 die should be for the .44 S & W Russian. I have a couple of these, one for the standard bullet and the other has a double-adjustable die for the gallery round ball. I'm looking for a .429" RB mould.

These are fascinating -- and almost infinitely variable - old tools.

Doug

On Feb 6, 2011, at 4:42 PM, George wrote:


I have a tool marked 25-25 & 21 the die is marked 8-20 and measures .380 diameter.
I also have a #6 marked 44 and the die is marked 77,I always thought this was for 44-77.The die is .653 diameter.
I don't have much more to offer on these.
George

On 2/6/2011 1:52 PM, Jim wrote:
Ken,

I agree with Doug that since the evolution explains the “Special” large 11/16 x 30 tpi thread for 348, etc., the small .400 x 30 tpi for 25-20 SS, etc., should also be included. His ‘investigation’ of the mystery number code #6 and conclusion/resolution I believe would be of great interest to readers as well.

I’ve not had a chance to review the “A Conversation” word doc yet. But will report back at 1st opportunity.

Jim

There will be a series on the evolution of the 310 tool in a coming ARTCA newsletter. I am lucky enough to have a set of copies of the various large format charts from older handbooks, they are indispensable when dealing with the 310 or truline jr. I have also been privy to the discussions on the article on evolution of the tools, it is a good read.

There is also a good small phamplet from the ASSRA for identification of the various ideal/lyman tong tool types. if you are interested in the tong tools it is wise to have the little booklet.

[scrapcan]

Forgot the Ezy loader acutally has a different type fo die for the center station. It is knurled on the bottom and installs from the underside of the top plate. There is a set of articles on the ideal large presses in the ARTCA newsletters from the past year. I also got to see all of those presses and dies When I visited Floodgate the fall of 2010, it is a very impressive collection of tools and his work wil lead to vast knowledge for the rest of us. The third installment of the large presses article is in preparation.

[ohland]

Forgot the Ezy loader actually has a different type of die for the center station. It is knurled on the bottom and installs from the underside of the top plate. There is a set of articles on the ideal large presses in the ARTCA newsletters from the past year. I also got to see all of those presses and dies When I visited Floodgate the fall of 2010, it is a very impressive collection of tools and his work wil lead to vast knowledge for the rest of us. The third installment of the large presses article is in preparation.

Now that I have seen the Ezy-Loader dies on ARTCA, the real benefit is for folks that are looking for 310 dies and see the Ezy-Loader specific reversed die. It won't work too well with their 310 Tool. Trying to arm the faithful.

I saw the modified 7/8x14 dies, lot of work there.

Added a contact link, the article on thread sizes (.400, 5/8, 11/16). Yet to diddle the Idea chart into HTML, as things allow.

http://webpages.charter.net/ohland/Lyman_310_Tool.html

Yes! WinSCP finally is configured correctly!

:coffee:

[scrapcan]

Ohland,

one other thing you might mention is that there are variatiosn on teh 310 handles also. the ones you have shown are the newer alloy handles with interchangeable cartridge adapters.

There are also older carrtridge specific handles in steel and mostly are found in a plum brown color. I prefere these handles as I like the feel of them better. But I have also seen a few that used the interchangeable cartridge adapters.

I am going to send you a pm with some additional info.

[ohland]

Separated the stuff into a few pages. Resources, Ideal Quick Reference, Use the 310, the general page.

http://webpages.charter.net/ohland/Lyman_310_Tool.html

Yet to port the top punch to mould list, all in time. That will take a bit of grunt work. Sure there's all sorts of whizzbang HTML creators, but slow and steady...

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

:not listening:

[wiljen]

Castpics currently has a pretty good top punch to mold listing did you check it?

[ohland]

Castpics currently has a pretty good top punch to mold listing did you check it?

I saw it. Can I get the table in the original? Not sure how cutting and pasting into an HTML editor is going to work.

[ohland]

I saw it. Can I get the table in the original? Not sure how cutting and pasting into an HTML editor is going to work.


Able to open it under Word 2003 and have the table intact... Now some digital diddling...

[ohland]

http://webpages.charter.net/ohland/Idea_310_Quick_Reference.html

It is done. Partially. Now to fire up another computer that has a mouse for the hand to link death match.

Yes, I'm only diddling with the new 310s with the adjustable extractors and adapter dies. A man has to know his limits. I noticed the top punch table omits the #203, which is used on the 244203, IIRC. Bug hunting. Process of successive iterations.

Happy thoughts - wonder if the adapter dies are a combination of rim size, head diameter, and extractor groove... The 57mm cases are just about all the same, 244/6mm, 257 Robt, 7mm, 8mm (257 Robt used a different body?) Like to see this combination explained.

[ohland]

Have to add stuff to the Lyman TP to mould table, about 1/3d of seating screws do not have an associated mould.

http://webpages.charter.net/ohland/Idea_310_Quick_Reference.html

[scrapcan]

The top punch numbers in the early stages used the numbers from the mould number if that helps at all. Cross reference you tp punch to the mould table at old buffalo bullets or to the one Wiljen has on cast picts.