Bullet lube gunking up breech face on 38 Super; switch to 38 ACP for better seal?

[hutchman]

Hi,

I've been reloading lead bullets for about three years now and have been casting my own since last year.

For background, I used to buy commercial lead bullets but always had trouble with them leading in 9mm and 38 Super so I took about a year and learned all I could about the dynamics of shooting lead and realized the only way I could probably solve my problems was to cast my own so I could control all the variables.

I finally have a load that shoots great in my 1911 38 Super. The bullet is from WW and is about a 13.4 BHN and I have been lubing with Felix lube. I've been using Starline 38 Super +P brass and VV-N340 is about the only powder I have found that will drive the bullet the velocity I need for NRA Action pistol without leading. So far I have everything worked out (well almost ... that is where your experience comes in) ... I can get through a NRA Action pistol match and fire 200 rds without any leading.

Gumming up the gun through is another story. The breech face, top of chamber, extractor and edges of the barrel under the hood all get gunked up pretty good with bullet lube and soot from the powder.

QuickLOAD predicts that my load is in the 15,000-16,000 psi range and my theory is the load just isn't hot enough for the Starline +P brass (which is rated for at least (edit) 36,500 psi) to seal the chamber properly so I get vaporized lube sent backwards into the gun.

I was wondering if I switched to the thinner (don't really know if it is manufactured thinner today like it originally was) 38 ACP brass if that would solve my problem. I see in my reloading books that the max CUP for the old 38 ACP round is around 23,000 CUP so it should be safe to use with my load I described above.

Anyone have any experience solving a similar problem? If I can solve the gunk issue (yes, I've already done the towel/solven/hamock trick to remove extra lube from bullets/cases) I will have a smoking round for action pistol (pun intended).

Regards,

Brian

[geargnasher]

Try using Liquid Alox for lube, particularly the "45/45/10" formula discussed in Recluse's sticky in the lube forum. Tumble, allow to dry, size, tumble, allow to dry, load, shoot. The other option is to use a faster powder to get similar velocities with higher pressure (to seal the cases better) and sort out what's causing your leading issues. I'm betting your boolits are entering the bore undersized due to being swaged by the case, perhaps a larger expander spud is in order. Pull a seated boolit and make certain it's at least .001" over your groove diameter. N340 needs more pressure than the levels at which you're loading in order to seal the case.

Gear

[casterofboolits]

Sounds like you are not getting a good seal in the chamber and are gettinggas blow back.

I have been reloading for the super for almost 30 years now and never had the problem you are describing. I was using the Super in IPSC when we used a ballistic pendulum rather than the formula. Beat the **** out of the 45 with a Lee 140 grain SWC.

What I load now is a Saeco #930 38S-158-SWCBB over a load of BlueDot powder. I use Magma hard lube and have no problems with leading or excessive "gunk" any where. I also shoot mixed brass and do not seperate the 38 ACP from the Super brass. BlueDot proved to be the best soulution for the 38 Super in my four 38S Autos. I also use it in the 380 and 9mm.

I also have a ramped barrel.

I was also able to make major PF in a standard Colt barrel with a Magma 38S-160-RNBB and BlueDot with no pressure signs or buldged cases.

[Ausglock]

G'day. I run a Lee 125gr RN over 4.2gr WST for a 130 Power Factor in a Kimber Stainless Target II.
Starline +P cases with Win WSP primers.

This is my NRA Action load as well as Steel Challenge load.

After a few 100 rounds the gun is still reasonably clean.

I use Whitelable lube BAC through a Lyman 450.

[hutchman]

Try using Liquid Alox for lube, particularly the "45/45/10" formula discussed in Recluse's sticky in the lube forum. Tumble, allow to dry, size, tumble, allow to dry, load, shoot. The other option is to use a faster powder to get similar velocities with higher pressure (to seal the cases better) and sort out what's causing your leading issues. I'm betting your boolits are entering the bore undersized due to being swaged by the case, perhaps a larger expander spud is in order. Pull a seated boolit and make certain it's at least .001" over your groove diameter. N340 needs more pressure than the levels at which you're loading in order to seal the case.

Gear

I guess I forgot to mention that I had a custom powder thru expander die made that was .001 under the bullet diameter because the bullet was in fact being swaged to .355 when being seated in the case.

Another detail that I forgot to mention is that I get a nice lube star on the end of the barrel so I'm not quite sure what that means. Could it be that I need to thicken the lube a bit? I'm pushing the 125gn (actual weight is around 127-128gn) at an average of 1,000fps to give me a power factor around 125.

I have tried faster powders but they were all double base and I would usually get leading either right in front of the case mouth or all down the barrel.

[hutchman]

G'day. I run a Lee 125gr RN over 4.2gr WST for a 130 Power Factor in a Kimber Stainless Target II.
Starline +P cases with Win WSP primers.

This is my NRA Action load as well as Steel Challenge load.

After a few 100 rounds the gun is still reasonably clean.

I use Whitelable lube BAC through a Lyman 450.

I tried WST before but got pretty bad leading but I think that was before I noticed my swaging problem. Just curious what you size your bullets to.

I think I'm using the same mold as you (the Lee 125 RN) and I size them to .356. I tried .358 once but had to seat them way deep in order to get off the lands/groves.

[Ausglock]

I tried WST before but got pretty bad leading but I think that was before I noticed my swaging problem. Just curious what you size your bullets to.

I think I'm using the same mold as you (the Lee 125 RN) and I size them to .356. I tried .358 once but had to seat them way deep in order to get off the lands/groves.

G'day. Yep I size to .356.
The BAC lube also leaves a Star on the muzzle.

I use Dillon Dies. The Lee factory crimp die will kill accuracy and cause severe leading as it sizes the cast pill as the round enters the die. I still use Lee dies for 9mm and 38 Special, But use dillon crimp dies.
I have also run these pills in 357Sig at Major power factor (170). They are seated deep into the case so they can feed out of a Glock 35 with Match 357Sig barrel. Even at 1400 Fps there is no leading with BAC lube

[Doby45]

Pill? Is someone on medication?

[hutchman]

Update. Well I see that 38 ACP brass is next it impossible to find these days.

I also noticed that Starline makes several types of 38 Super brass and I've been using one of the uber strong ones.

Since I mostly do everything at minimum power factor, I may try their plain 38 Super brass as that may help with the chamber sealing.

I'll also look into some of the suggestions others have given.

I tried to take some picts of what I was talking about (remember, this is after 200 rds):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/189794dc8216ff22ff.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/189794dc82170441c4.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/189794dc821707bc5f.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/189794dc821c5e8c9e.jpg


Regards,

Brian

[geargnasher]

Now that you have the correct expander die, try softer boolits and faster powder, like Unique, Universal, etc. to peak the pressure in the case and yet not lead the bore.

A lube star is a good thing IMO. While not as important with short range pistol loads, getting the lube off the boolit right at muzzle exit is an indication of proper lube viscosity for the pressures and velocity being employed.

Or, you could load the pressures up higher with the components you're using now.

Gear

Gear

[hutchman]

At lunch I ran some queries on QuickLOAD. There didn't appear to be but a few powders (that I've never heard of and have no idea where to buy ... made in Germany etc.) that would drive my bullet around 1,000 fps with higher pressures and yet burn 90+%. I think the highest pressure that I saw was 22 or 23,000 psi. (probably still not enough to properly seal brass meant to handle 36,500+ psi).

Most powders that met my search criteria were right in the ball park of the pressure I'm generating now so I think my options are kind of limited if I want to use a single base powder and stay around 1,000fps. Maybe not put as much pressure on the lube so not to use as much (I have a Lyman 4500 but want a Star for speed) and use the regular 38 Super brass instead of the Stronger 38 Super +P brass that I'm using now (as mentioned in one of my earlier posts). I also called Starline at lunch and the technician mentioned I probably needed to use just the regular Super brass.

Do my pictures look about typical or am I just expecting too much?

Regards,

Brian

[Mavrick]

I don't see that you expect too much, and it looks to me that your MAIN problem is the cases aren't expanding properly. Those cases seem to need more pressure, or a softer case to obturate better. I haven't use Starline cases in the .38 Super as it's been a while since I carried one. At one time or other I carried a Combat Commander or a full-frame stoked with Unique or Blue Dot and a 115gr (9mm) conical sized at .357". The boolits were cast from WWs.
If you want to use a faster powder, but want to stick to a single-base, try Solo 1000. If that's too fast try Solo 2000. I have some left over from a trapshooting experiment, and it lasts a looong time.
Have fun,
Gene

[Mavrick]

I just went over and looked up the Scot powders, and the only ones available are 1000, 1250, and Nitro 100. I looked at my stock, too and I have containers of 1000 that are Scot and Accurate, who was later bought out by Alliant.
I like 1000 in my .45, and will try some in my .40 S&W, but 1250 would probably be better in both the .40 and the .38 Super..FWIW
Have fun,
Gene

[hutchman]

BlueDot and Unique came close to working but they leaded a little and wouldn't meter very well in my powder measure. I would get extreme spreads that were way too high for my liking. The VV-n340 gives me great ES (like 20) and std. Dev. (single digit). Stuff looks like Varget.

[Gunsmoke4570]

I've been using Winchester Super brass with mild loads in the range you are talking about without the same issues. Might want to try some of that.

[troy_mclure]

have you tried hi-skor 800x?

[Ausglock]

Pill? Is someone on medication?

Pill....Australian for anything can be seated in a cartridge case. Jacketed, Plated, Coated, Cast or swaged.:mrgreen:

@ Brian.
Mate that is filthy. I haven't ever seen a gun that dirty after only 200 rounds.
I run Starline +p cases with the WST load and have no issues like this.What do your fired cases look like? Are they covered on crud too?

[hutchman]

No, cases don't look bad. One of the guys at the range commented on how clean they were. That is when I found out that the 9x23 guys (which is most of the guys at my range) have a similar problem. They use WST with J word bullets and theirs crud up too, I think their brass is rated for 50,000 psi.

I'll have to look into the Win.38 Super brass.

Regards,

Brian

[hutchman]

have you tried hi-skor 800x?

No, but it was on my radar :) Basically I started out trying to guess a load by looking at all my reloading books and that didn't get me very far since there isn't much lead Super data in reloading books. So I would read everything I could get my hands on and then I found a spreadsheet of IPSC loads for the 38 Super and I scanned that for lead loads. That helped but I still ended up buying a bunch of 1lb. powder cans only to find out I would still get leading at the fps I was trying to target.

Then I finally broke down and purchased the QuickLOAD program and that helped more than anything (once I figured out how to use it). That narrowed down the field of powders that "should" do what I wanted with the BHN of the boolits I made. I tried a few of the ones that matched my criteria and zereoed in on a load pretty quick. It has most all of the powders you can easily get (Hodgdon, Alliant, Western, etc.) except for a few popular Winchester & IMR (like WST, IMR4756, AutoCOMP etc.) powders. IMR4756 is single base and I really tried to get it to work but the ES (Extreme Spread) on my chronograph was just all over the place so I gave up on it.

Do you have a hi-skor 800x lead load for the Super in the 1,000fps range?

Regards,

Brian

[wiljen]

That looks more like crud from not getting a good seal (ie not enough pressure) than anything to do with lube. Try stepping the load up a bit (if there is room below the max charge) and see if it doesn't get a lot cleaner.

are the case mouths black on the outside? If they are, that's a sure sign of not enough pressure to seal the case/barrel junction.

[Iron Mike Golf]

How many rounds was that buildup of soot from?

[hutchman]

This is for NRA Action Pistol and I'm trying to stay in the 125-130 power factor range which for this bullet is average of 1,000 fps. Having said that, the fastest powders known to man will only generate around 24,000 psi at 1,000 fps so those are the parameters I have to work with.

[hutchman]

How many rounds was that buildup of soot from?

One AP match = 192 rds. I shot some fouling rounds so around 200 rds is what you see in the pictures.

[troy_mclure]

Do you have a hi-skor 800x lead load for the Super in the 1,000fps range?

Regards,

Brian


nope, but i have a 200gr 1100fps 10mm loads.

[hutchman]

nope, but i have a 200gr 1100fps 10mm loads.

Hmm, I might be interested ... I've tried to load for my 40 (or fotay as the DEA guy who shot himself in the foot calls it) but it leads like crazy. I think I know what my problem there is though ... I need a sizer that is .402 or .403 as when I drop a .401 bullet in the barrel and press it into the lands with a pencil, I can still see light all around it when I hold it up to light and look through the barrel.

What are you sizing your 10mm too? I know every gun is different but I'm just curious if you had trouble loading for it. PM me as I'm hi-jacking my own thread :)

Regards,

Brian