Solving the Mystery of My Hi-Vel GLUED PPCB

[CJR]

I would be the first to agree that if any of the PP adheres to the CB, during its flight to the target, accuracy will suffer. So here I am, wetting my PP with a 50% mixture of wood glue and water, shooting at 2700 to 2800 fps, and getting excellent accuracy, with the rare absence of flyers. While others, on this forum, are just water wetting the PP and getting excellent accuracy as well. Why the difference? I ruminated on my navel awhile and I think maybe there is an explanation.

Here's what I do to prepare a PPCB:
1. Take a 30 cal CB (Lyman 311291), spray it with dry Teflon spray, let dry, and size to 0.301"D.
2. Wet the PP with a 50% wood glue/water and wrap the CB with the leading edge of the PP over the front edge of the first driving band, twist the tail, and let dry. Clip tails.
3. Spray the PPCB with dry Teflon spray and let dry. Take a LBT Blue lube stick and use it like a crayon to mark the PP lightly.
4 Final size to 0.308"D and load the round for hi-vel.

I've noticed that if a PP doesn't suit me, I'd just easily scratch it off with my finger nail. The glued PP is obviously not sticking to the CB, but the paper is sticking very well to itself. Apparently, my initial Teflon coating is preventing the glue from sticking to the lead, but the glue plus paper shrinkage (i.e. kind of like clamping glued wood together) is bonding the PP to itself very strongly. So as the PPCB moves down the barrel and the rifling cuts the PP, the glued PP doesn't fragment inside the barrel or shed layers of the PP. When the PPCB exits the muzzle, its spin of 194,000rpm and aerodynamic forces easily removes the strips of PP (i.e kind of like the strips of a Chase patch) and the bare CB, without any paper clinging to it, flies to the target perfectly.

I then reread the NRA's PP work and Paul Matthews book (The Paper Jacket) and guess what? They both sized the bare CB, with sizing lube, and then just wiped it off before PP. Ever try to grease something, wipe it off, and then try to glue something to it? You can't! So I thought some more about paper. Different paper manufacturers add different chemicals/clays to give body to the paper. No one knows what these chemicals/clays based papers will do when wetted and wrapped around a solvent cleaned CB. Some paper brands(i.e. depending on chemicals/clays used) may not bond to a solvent cleaned CB, while others may bond in spots and cling to CB on its way to the target. This may explain why some are successful with water wetted PP and some are not. In the NRA's work, Paul Matthews work, and my work, the bare CB had a thin coat of sizing lube on it and apparently that helped the PP to be removed after exit from the muzzle. In my case, the glue apparently kept the layers of paper from shedding/slipping apart while in the barrel.

So what does this mean for low-vel PPCB, where say the bare CB is solvent cleaned, then wrapped with some water wetted PP. Depending on the brand of paper used, there is the possibility that the PP may be glued strongly to the CB. If the velocity is low; the RPM will be low(i.e. low centrifugal force) and the aerodynamic forces will also be low and the PP won't be stripped off the CB as it exits from the muzzle. Result? CB travels to target with pieces of the PP adhering to CB and poor accuracy results.

Food for thought! Somewhere in this puzzle lies the solution for consistent PPCB performance. Comments?

Best regards,

CJR

[docone31]

I use Dawn dish soap to size my prime castings.
I rinse them with scalding hot water.
Soap goes away.
I then use soaking wet patches in a cigarette roller. When they are rolled on, they stretch and dry hard.
I then size with Auto Wax, and size off the wax. It makes a shiney hard wrap. Sizeing the wax seems to even it out.

[303Guy]

I've played around with wood glue and paper glue and done the same thing as you apart from the teflon spray on the bare CB. Wood and paper glue does not stick to clean or lubed lead. When reduced with water, the glue seems to dissappear into the paper and it does indeed bond the paper to itself very well.

My theory on this one is that as long as the patch is uniform them alls good, which is what a diluted glue would give. Gluing down the trailing edge of the patch would create a stronger area on the patch which is 'inconsistant'. I've no idea if that trick works or not.

I'm glad you did that test 'cause now I know it's workable (I never range tested mine).:drinks:

By the way, my dry wrapped patches with just a tiny dab under the trailing corner and cig roller tightened are actually hard to get off with just a fingernail. I plan on going tail-less and skirt-less and inserting the wrapped boolits directly into the cases with no glue and dry cig roller wrapped.

[windrider919]

And that ties in with my experiments with Rooster Bullet lube and water soluble wax based floor wax.

Before I started filling the micro grooves on the bullet sides with beeswax/carnuba wax mix I kept getting flyers which appeared to be from pieces of patch getting glued to the bullet by the patch wax (ie: the Rooster, which was actually being used to 'glue' the patch together and add a little waterproofing for real world field use).

I theorized that the solid wax in the grooves and on the surface of the bullet was keeping the patch wax from gluing itself to the bullet....Basically the same as your use of Teflon spray on the bullet. I also thought that the wax in the grooves was thrown off the bullet by centrifugal force, helping carry the patch cleanly off with it. Recovered bullets have no wax in the micro grooves.

I both your and my case then, the bullet has to have 'non-stick' properties to shed the patch properly...and hence accurately.

I have shied away from wood glue solutions as I had some bad experiences with it fouling barrels [a carbonish residue which was VERY difficult to clean out] and poor accuracy - of course that was with full strength Elmers which made a patch too tough to be cut by the rifling and/or shred at the muzzle either.

Picture of a 'as cast' showing patch locking grooves, a lubed bullet with grooves filled and a wrapped bullet.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1659.jpg

I have come to believe that the paper itself is not as important as how it separates from the bullet at the muzzle. Modern paper is very consistent versus old paper which varied in thickness and fiber 'network' consistency across a sheet. Perhaps that's why the old timers had to use premium paper , because it was all they could get that was even in thickness and consistency. Whereas , even 'junk' paper today ( like newsprint, green bar or plain copy paper ) is better than their best, so we are able to use just about any of it. I find that bullet fit in the chamber throat is the prime determinate to accuracy in rifles I have experimented with Paper Patching with, then bore dimensions.

[zuke]

If you put a gob of glue on the kitchen counter top will it dry hard?
hhhhmmmmmmmmmmm???

[windrider919]

If you put a gob of glue on the kitchen counter top will it dry hard?
hhhhmmmmmmmmmmm???

Hold it!..................Hold it!...................Hold It!.......

Aaaaaraghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!?!??!

I lost it!!!.......

{Sticking tongue firmly in cheek...}

Well, Zuke, that depends...............Is the wife home?...................

........do you move the dirty dishes first?..............

How high is the counter?.................

...................Gob? Isn't that equal to 1 RCH times 3.1415K?

[1874Sharps]

CJR,

Glad you found such a good method that is working well for you. It is indeed very important for no paper to adhere to the boolit after barrel exit and it looks like you have found a great way to do this. I have been using a similar method, but instead of using an aqueous glue solution I take the wet patch and glue down the last 1/4 of the patch with glue stick. After running it through the sizer (which irons on the patch) the trailing wrap of the patch is anchored down. Incidentally, it seems like the higher the velocity of my 30-06 PP boolits, the better the accuracy (2850 fps accuracy was better in general than 2500 fps, etc. accuracy), just as you have found. Perhaps I will give your method a try, as it may go a bit faster that way.

[CJR]

1874 Sharps,

What type of paper are you using? I use Office Depot's Vellum 100% cotton 50 sheet pads which cost about $5.50. The marking on the pad says it is "16 lb weight" and the thickness mikes at 0.0025".

About your hi-vel accuracy. It appears that when the case has no air behind the CB, as with max. loads, accuracy is sterling. As soon as I cast some more LBT 150 gr bullet, I am going to see if I can reach 3000 fps with PPCB in my 308 Win. From what I've seen in the reloading manuals, for 150 gr. jacketed loads, I think it's doable. Particularly, with the lower friction PPCB. We shall see.

Best regards,

CJR

[1874Sharps]

CJR,

I have been using Vellum paper, also. It is about the toughest paper I know of and seems just perfect for this use. I have tried 25% cotton 9 lb. paper (used for my 45-70) for the 165 grain 30 caliber paper patch gas check (PPGC) boolit I cast and it worked, but not quite as well. The Vellum seems to stand up well to the feeding of the cartridges from clip to chamber in the M1 Garand without tearing, too. By making my own gas checks and scrounging lead from the berms this rifle can be shot for roughly the cost of the powder and primer (around 8 cents a shot). I think you should be able to achieve 3000 fps without any pressure problems. It appears to me (by observing primer deformation in cartridges of equal powder charge and bullet weight, PPGC boolit and jacketed bullet) that the paper patch load pressures run substantially less than jacketed load pressures. I wish I had a ballistics lab and could supply actual numbers, but I do not.

[CJR]

1874 Sharps,

I just measured the case heads from my last outing of PPCB shooting. I was using two loads; 43 gr. of IMR4064 & 50gr. of W760 behind a 175 gr. PPCB Lyman 311291 bullet. All cases were IMI and the case head measurements, for both loads, were identical and indicate normal pressures. Primer indentations and extraction were also normal.

I assume by your title, "1874 Sharps", that you shoot a 1874 Sharps. Last year, at my range, I met a guy shooting a Sharps 45-90 or 100 with swaged greased bullets on the 200 yd range. He was using iron sights. I was there when he brought the target back to the bench. He had put 5 rounds into about 1 1/16". If you removed one bullet from the group the group would've been under an inch at 200 yards. Talk about a humbling experience. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I would not have believed it. An absolutely amazing achievement by an outstanding rifleman! I also found out, as well, that this fellow competes in 1000yd competitions.

Best regards,

CJR

[1874Sharps]

CJR,

Yes, I chose the username, "1874 Sharps" because I enjoy shooting and loading for it so much. I wish I could claim that I can shoot as well with it as the fellow you cite, but I am not nearly at that level. I did manage to take a buffalo with it several years back, and that is just the sort of thing I bought it for: hunting and recreational shooting. The 1874 Sharps was one of those great guns that was on my "bucket list" of guns to get and when a used Pedersoli came up for sale about eight years back I jumped on it. If I was wealthy I guess I would have bought a Shiloh, but I am very happy with the Pedersoli and impressed with its performance and quality. I am sure it would shoot even better if a more skilled rifleman was on the other end of it. The accuracy the Sharps is capable of with either BP or smokeless is truly amazing!

Your loads with the 175 grain Lyman are very close to the loads I shoot (168 grain boolit). It seems WIN 760 and IMR 4350 have given me the best accuracy, although I have not tried IMR 4064. It surprises me that more high power rifle shooters, especially those who hand cast, do not paper patch. Sure, it is a bit more work and there is a learning curve, but the results are nearly magic! To me the Holy Grail of high power rilfe cast boolit shooting has been finding a boolit that will perform as well as a premium jacketed bullet on big game, shoot as accurately as a match grade bullet and not lead the barrel. Paper patching reaches, or at least comes very close, to these high marks. For most of us here on this forum, I would hazard to guess, spending a little more time in the loading room cutting patches and wrapping them around a boolit is not a huge down side or deterent compared to loading conventional boolits. What is not to love?!!!

[CJR]

1874 Sharps,

Sounds like you have a cool rifle. Interesting that you took a buffalo. I'm looking forward to introducing a deer or bear to my PPCB.

The fascinating thing about PPCB is to look at jacketed loads. If you want a super accurate jacketed load, you need to buy premium jacketed or custom-made bullets at about $38/100. I load up 50 rounds of PPCB for about $7-9, depending on powder charge used. So a box of 20 PPCB hi-vel rounds costs me about $3.60. The lead is scrounged and I buy bulk quantities of supplies. Yes it takes a very little extra time, not really much more, to load a 100 PPCB rds. Docone's cigarette roller trick really speeds things up and improves the quality of the PPCB. The little extra time I spend initially, is paid back after shooting because I don't have to clean my barrel. I just wipe it down with oil. Finally, I'm beginning to see things, with my standard rifle, that I would only expect to see with a heavy barreled benchrest rifle , glued in action, custom-made bullets, custom chambering, barrel cleanings after so many rounds, etc. I will not be surprised if my PPCB loads turn out to be more consistently accurate and faster than my best jacketed loads. If the NRA could use its sub-minute of angle PPCB in competitions up to a 1000 yds, there is no reason why we can't achieve the same or better results. Sharing our successes and failures will probably help us all get there faster than the NRA did. We shall see what the PPCB future holds.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

I wish I had a ballistics lab and could supply actual numbers, but I do not. Larry Gibson sort has a ballistics lab. If we could persuade hime to take up paper patching, he could satisfy our curiosity. :roll:


Yes it takes a very little extra time, not really much more, to load a 100 PPCB rds.Mmmm.... I'm not so sure about that one. It is more fun and is more rewarding to paper patch but it takes me a lot longer. That won't stop me of course but it does make me appreciate each shot I take!:mrgreen:
Each boolit I patch is an individual. A handful is an achievement.

[1874Sharps]

Amen, brothers!

[myfriendis410]

My interest in this subject is in re; my own Pedersoli Sharps 1874. I have a couple of questions, if I may. What boolit has performed the best for you in YOUR 1874 (if you would cite the specs of the mold), what paper and technique, etc. I'm a long-time caster, but am really intrigued by paper patching. Especially for this cartridge and rifle.

[1874Sharps]

Myfriendis410,

I would be happy to share this info with you. I will send a message at the end of the day.

[CJR]

303 Guy,

Based on what you described previously about your method of making PP, my method of making PP is not as labor-intensive as yours. Apparently, you print out "curved" PP on paper sheets and then, I assume, cut out each curved PP separately with a scissor. That I would think takes some time.

I follow Paul Matthews suggestion, in his book "The Paper Jacket", and use a inexpensive paper cutter modified with straight and angled guides to slice stacks of paper into strips and then cut the stacked strips into PP. It's pretty fast and produces a lot of PP in a short time, which I then store in containers.

After a casting session, I size all my WQCB before they get too hard and then store them. The CB ,to be used later for PP, are sized after spraying with dry Teflon. For PP, I wrap them with PP (using Docone's fast cigarette roller trick), twist tails, and let them dry overnight. Next day, I clip tails (minutes), spray with dry Teflon and let dry(minutes), sparingly coat with LBT Blue and final size(minutes). The PPCB are now ready to be loaded into cartridges.

As Paul Matthews mentions in his book, when PP was done years ago, a woman could PP 12,000 CB in a work day. For an eight hour work day, that's about 25 PPCB per minute. I'll never achieve that, but it's nice to know what was done years ago.

Best regards,

CJR

[bbqncigars]

CJR:
I'm another one who has gone with the modified paper cutter. I don't machine each boolit out of alloy, and I'll be damned if I cut each individual patch for a uniform boolit. My patch board has an adjustable stop for the boolit nose so I can use the same scribed line for the bottom of the patch regardless of which boolit is being patched.

[CJR]

BBQNCIGARS,

Sounds like you're on a roll. I like to crank out PPCB as fast as I can. Today, I did some casting. Ran four(4) moulds today; (3) 4-cavities and one (1) 6-cavity and got a pile of bullets that should last me a month or two. So it's back to the range in a few days to scare some more targets.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

Mmm... maybe it's time a taylored a chamber to suite a parallel PPCB so I can mass produce parallel sided patches. Or at least find a gun that will accept parallel sided boolits. One of them must surely work. I dare say the twisted tail patch makes the shape of the rear of the patch irrelevent.

[pdawg_shooter]

All my PP bullets are parallel sided. They all come from standard grooved bullet molds. I size them in a push through die to the size I need and then patch. I have 3 rifles I have cut the rifling lead to an 11* angle but the rest are factory stock. It works for me.

[docone31]

I just size castings in the caliber needed, wrap, let dry, wax and size.
When I twist my tails, I compress the twist with the ram on the sizeing die.
Works great.
I like things simple and repeateable.

[303Guy]

I like things simple and repeateable. Isn't it supposed to be more fun when things are complicated?:bigsmyl2: It's not like I'm not enjoying the laborious process I use but I am actually thinking of finding a plain cast boolit and rifle to suite for more volume shooting. But somehow the thought of shooting plain cast after discovering paper patching sounds just wrong!:mrgreen:

Oh well, it adds variety!

I do have a factory Lee 180gr 311 mould which I have tried patching for my two-groove with no great success. No reason not to try it for my other rifles and see if one of them likes it. (I bought it in my early days thinking that .311 was right for the 303 Brit. We didn't have internet and shooting forums in those days). I'm sure I can devise a quick and easy way to employ the Cig Roller for 'mass production' type paper patching.

[pdawg_shooter]

I do have a factory Lee 180gr 311 mould which I have tried patching for my two-groove with no great success. No reason not to try it for my other rifles and see if one of them likes it. (I bought it in my early days thinking that .311 was right for the 303 Brit. We didn't have internet and shooting forums in those days). I'm sure I can devise a quick and easy way to employ the Cig Roller for 'mass production' type paper patching.[/QUOTE]

I too have (had) that same mold and couldn't get it to shoot in anything I had. Gave it to a shooting buddy and he ended giving it away also. Dont know where it is now but I know it has traveled some. Maybe just not a good design? I have to think there are some out there that have had good luck with it.

[CJR]

Pdawg Shooter,

That's an interesting comment you made on the Lee 180 gr. I always assumed the Lee 180gr. was a copy of Lyman's 311291 which has a reputation for accuracy. I guess they're very diffferent.

Best regards,

CJR

[docone31]

I use that mold, and it is my go to with my .303 loads.
I have a bore, that with paper sizes to .314. My friend's #4 sizes to .318.
Without paper, no wonder it will not work well. With paper, it is a winner.

[pdawg_shooter]

I bought mine for patching. Tried it sized to .304,.305,.306 and unsized. Best I could get in any of my 303s was around 4 inches. Guy I gave it to tried bare lubed in 2 of his, still around 4 inches. Dont know where it is now but it has made the rounds.

[docone31]

I found .308 was my magic number for patching the .303.
I sized my prime castings to .308, then wrapped, then sized to .314 or larger.
When I sized smaller, I got at least 20 MOB, minutes of berm, my groups were large to say the least.