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BruceB
12-20-2006, 09:58 PM
In a way, it was danged-near boring, but it was the kind of "boring" I wish I'd see more often.

This 7.62x39 Ruger 77 bolt-action has shown flashes of cast-bullet brilliance from time to time, but not terribly consistently. TODAY, I tried a series of loads using 311291, water-dropped WW, .311" with each of IMR 4831, IMR 4320, and XMP 5744......and ALL rounds used CCI #300 PISTOL PRIMERS. This was my first use of the pistol primers in CB rifle loads, and the results were.....boring. That's because the vast majority of the loads plopped TEN rounds under an inch at 50 yards. Most of the rounds which strayed beyond that figure were called-out at the shot break. Velocities ran from 1200 fps (4831) to over 1800 fps (4320) and ALL the powders gave decent results. What a fine and mellow feeling, knowing that if I operated the rifle correctly, the bullet WOULD land in the group! I could get used to this....

Naturally, a fly would have to land in my ointment, and sure enuff....I was just starting to shoot another series of loads with 311466 (ONE round fired out of forty in the box) when the Timney trigger in the rifle crapped out on me. The striker would not stay in the cocked position. Also, I had removed all the tiny Allen keys from Der Schuetzenwagen for some forgotten project a ways back, so the Ruger was dead in the water.

All was not lost! Those two fantastic bargain moulds from the last gun show had provided the boolits for today's outing. The Hoch 457425 and Lyman 462520HP (427 and 522 grains, .459" WW) gave me just about the best 50-yard groups I've seen from this rifle. The Hoch boolit turned in one group of ten (one big hole) of .800" and the fat-nosed 462520 wasn't far behind. All loads were using 4227 and dacron, and PISTOL primers again.

Transitioning directly from a modern, 3-9X scoped rifle with a feathery trigger, to the Sharps' with its set trigger, tang rear sight and open-ring globe front sight with spirit level, is quite an adjustment. The routine for a Sharps is this:

1. BOOOOM!

2. Bring the hammer back to half-cock to avoid possible firing-pin damage on opening the action.

3. Drop the lever and remove the case.

4. Reload.

5. Bring the hammer to full cock.

6. Press the rear trigger to 'set' the front one.

7. Look at the spirit level and try to zero the bubble at dead center, while....

8....getting into shooting position while still "keeping the level level", and...

9. Adjust the rifle on the rest to center the black aiming mark in the ring of the front sight, AND while trying to position the eye properly behind the rear aperture...

10....and trying to preserve the various precariously-stable elements while...

11. TOUCHING the front trigger just enough to trip it (about 4 ounces), and...

12. ...then riding-out the recoil in an attempt to follow-through on the shot.

In better lighting than I had today, it's not difficult to watch the bubble through the rear aperture, which simplifies things a lot.

I fired until the shadows from the sunset touched the bottom of my targets, which is about the maximum use of daylight, I'd say. The temperature was mid-thirties all afternoon until about 3:00, at which point it started cooling quickly. It was T-shirt weather inside Der 'wagen until then, too. Very light breezes made it nice , except the 7.62 barrel got hot and stayed that way.

Note that I picked up on using the pistol primers from shooters right here on this Board. Thank you, gentlemen. On very short experience, it seems a very worthwhile idea.

Bad Ass Wallace
12-20-2006, 10:58 PM
I have a Ruger 77 in 7.62x39 which is also proving to be a good cast boolit shooter. I was very worried that the Lyman 311284 when seated well down inside the neck would not group but I have achieved similar results at 1440fps. The best grouping however has been with a 120gn RCBS boolit for the M1 carbine.

As near as I can determine, the Ruger barrel is .308 with a 1:10 twist

crossfireoops
12-20-2006, 11:09 PM
Nice shootin', BruceB, .....and cheers, B.A.

.............question, what sorta' 7.62 X 39 brass are you fellows running?

GTC

Bad Ass Wallace
12-21-2006, 03:04 AM
I use Winchester brass which has been outside neck turned to allow .311 projectiles to be seated without excessive neck tension. This will reduce the tendancy to damage the boolit when seating.

All my cast boolit guns, 7.62, 30.06 and 7mm have improved with outside neck turning. The 7mm particularly is used for cast boolit silly-wets where flyers at 200yds are to be avoided.

Buckshot
12-21-2006, 03:25 AM
..................Sounds like a very satisfying day at the range. I may need to investigate this pistol primer in rifle case thingie :-) Tuesday it was chilly for us Burrito Shooters too. A gaggle of the 'Old Guys' (well, older'n us) usually shooting 22's didn't show up, but all us Burrito guys were there.

Daytime temps have been mid-fifties with overnight temps in the low-mid 30's. We had some breeze+, actually bordering on some real wind Tuesday. So with the wind and the temp it was watery eyes and snotty nose time. We were shooting 22 rifles and pistols offhand iron sights for the match.

It wasn't so much the crazyness of shooting 22's in the wind that was getting us down but the wind pushing us as we stood there. Also the target boards practicly lying down flat on the ground, then springing back up as the breeze slackened. I managed to win with an 80-1X (including a no score), so that tells you how poorly everyone else was doing!

I too was shooting a bolt action 7.62x39 Tuesday, as I had loaded up some Lyman 311410's (130gr RNPB) over 7.0 grs of Red Dot. A very pleasant mild load and nicely accurate. If a ground squirrel sticks his head up at 50 yards, it would certainly recieve one of these in the kisser :-)

.................Buckshot

BruceB
12-21-2006, 11:32 AM
G 'Morning;

When I started with the 7.62x39, I bought 500 once-fired Federal cases from an Ebay seller. I ended up deep-sixing all the Federals due to gross variation in neck thickness. I must point out that I've used a lot of Federal brass in other calibers with satisfaction.

I now have about 400 Winchester cases on hand, and perhaps my improved results yesterday were partially due to the more-consistent brass. I'm just not sufficiently motivated to bother with neck turning or reaming.

I've been using .311" sizing from day one with this Whitworth/Interarms Mini-Mauser rifle (it slugs at .3105") but I'll probably run some tests with .313 or .314"' just to see how it goes.

My IMR 4831/311291 series of yesterday started at 22 grains (1200 fps), and went up to 25 grains. Even the 25-grain load left the cases pretty icky, showing pressures to be low enough that obturation wasn't very good. 4320 and 5744 loads gave much better chamber sealing. I may run a few heavier loads with IMR 4831, or maybe 4831 Short Cut for curiosity. 4350 also comes to mind. Naturally, case capacity becomes a factor with the small cartridge size and slow powders.

That heavy 462520HP was seated too long in yesterday's first trial with it in my .45-2.1". A few rounds would NOT chamber completely, and rounds that failed to chamber with the max pressure I could apply with my thumb had to be cleared with a rod. I discovered clear land engraving for a good 3/8" on the noses of such rounds. Dunno how that escaped me when setting up to load the critters. The boolits were seated with the front edge of the first band just ahead of the case mouth about 0.10", so clearly they'll have to be seated deeper for proper function. This isn't critical for smokeless loads, but it would drastically reduce capacity for blackpowder. Both this boolit and the Hoch show promise, anyway.

MT Gianni
12-21-2006, 12:02 PM
I have 200 of the remington small rifle primer brass and about the same of WW in 7.62x39 and see little variation in groups. Yugo SKS and Handi-Rifle. Gianni.

Buckshot
12-22-2006, 03:21 AM
.............I have major inventory of 7.62x39 in 3 headstamps. Winchester, K-P, and PMC. The PMC had been all range pickup and was given to me. Maybe 300 cases or more. The Winchester was also once fired and was given to me by a freind who'd sold his SKS. The K-P was bought from Midway several years ago. They were blowing it out for some small price. I want to say $9 something per hundred?

I'd never heard of K-P but Midway said it was Kaltron-Pettibone and had been made by Lapua so I bought 500 cases :-). All I've used so far has been the Winchester. Seems I can get about 5 reloads before the casemouth develops a crack where the finger or collet crimp imprinted the rim of the mouth. Since it was free it's not causeing me to lose any sleep, but it's still unusual.

.................Buckshot

Bass Ackward
12-22-2006, 08:44 AM
What a fine and mellow feeling, knowing that if I operated the rifle correctly, the bullet WOULD land in the group! I could get used to this....


Bruce,

Seems you stumbled on a find.

Pistol primers do almost seem like cheating. :grin: Especially when you hear of the problems of others.

I feel bad for guys when I hear them talk about 10 shots before you can call a group size, or shoot a load for three weeks straight. Or weight bullets. Or any of the other normal qualifiers. Because I just don't see that problem.

From my rifle experience, a flier is generally caused by one of two causes. One is from an inconsistent primer. And statistically there are 10 to 18 per 100 depending on rifle brand and the normal "acceptable" range is wider. It doesn't matter so much with jacketed because there is enough friction that pressure eventually has to get it in the throat and moving. Not so with cast. A rifle primer can actually move it well down the bore all by itself. Sometimes before the powder ignites well. Or the other reason is a check coming off during flight.

Any brand of Pistols are more consistent than any brand of rifle primers and they cost less. The last test I saw, pistols were 3 to 8 per hundred out of their normal range, but the average spread is way less than the average rifle spread. So if you held rifle primers to the same narrow spread range as pistol primers, then 40 out of 100 would exceed the norm. BIG advantage for cast and another reason that choking works! And if you use WIN pistol primers, you get the "longer" heat to ignite their ball powders without the added force of a magnum pistol or a standard rifle primer.

Just watch the 7.62X39 as you can cross 40,000 psi fairly quickly. They will take more, but alot depends on the shape of your firing pin and the size of it's hole in the bolt face.

felix
12-22-2006, 09:01 AM
Indeed, it is amazing the difference in primer hits by the later lever guns. Folks are saying it is because of the rebounding hammer in the Winnies? I had the smithy make me a firing pin from scratch for the Rossi, but it its too long and is too big in diameter. It cracks the CCI pistol primers on about normally powered loads. Still needs work. ... felix